[PF] Barbarian weapon choice. Two-handed or two-weapon?

[Jeivar]

So, an idea sprung up yesterday was that we play barbarians as depicted on 80's album covers, to the hilt. Over-the-top loincloth-wearing, heart-eating berserkers as how civilized people picture barbarians. We haven't gone into details yet, but the DM did mention fairly high levels so as to be properly badass. I'm going to assume lvl 10-12 till further information. I'm just wondering how to Feat and arm my lunatic up.

It seems to me offense inevitably trumps defense in the D20 system, so I guess sword-n-shield are out. So that leaves either dual-wielding Battleaxe and Handaxe, or a honkin' two-hander.
I'm leaning more towards a Greatsword, possibly even a Large sized one for 3d6 of damage. It won't eat up a Feat, and if I did the math right, it makes for more damage on average.

Thoughts? Here's what I'm thinking regarding abilities so far:

*Feats: Power Attack, Cornugon Smash, Death or Glory, Extra Rage.
*Rage Powers: Animal Fury, Auspicious Mark, Knockback, Intimidating Glare and Mighty Swing (if we're at least level 12)

I'm not trying to specialize in anything, just make a fairly well-rounded warrior.

[Ailowynn]

TWF is too much investment for too little reward. BUT it's freakin awesome. In general, however, you'd be better off mechanically speaking going Two Handed, especially if you want to be able to do anything other than attack each turn as TWF is always a full round action

[Keneth]

You can't use a large greatsword, unless you're large yourself or have the ability to wield larger-sized weapons (e.g. you're a half-giant). But on that note, two-handed is definitely the way to go with barbarian since you can afford fewer feats than a fighter. Another decent way to go is natural attacks since you can get them early on (claws, bite, gore, etc.), and it has the added benefit of using the same attack bonus on all attacks, but the build starts losing power as you approach high levels.

[Jeivar]

You can't use a large greatsword, unless you're large yourself or have the ability to wield larger-sized weapons (e.g. you're a half-giant).

The signature Barbarian uses a Large bastard sword (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/iconic-characters/amiri---iconic-barbarian/amiri-iconic-barbarian-1) she took from a frost giant.

[Keneth]

That's because she has EWP (bastard sword), which lets her treat a medium-sized bastard sword as a one-handed weapon, and thus a large-sized bastard sword as a two-handed weapon. Increasing the size of the weapon also increases its handedness, and there is no category beyond two-handed.

[Daftendirekt]

The signature Barbarian uses a Large bastard sword (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/iconic-characters/amiri---iconic-barbarian/amiri-iconic-barbarian-1) she took from a frost giant.


That's because she has EWP (bastard sword), which lets her treat a medium-sized bastard sword as a one-handed weapon, and thus a large-sized bastard sword as a two-handed weapon. Increasing the size of the weapon also increases its handedness, and there is no category beyond two-handed.

I dunno, she does seem to be at a -2 with it. 18 str + 1 BAB should be a +5, but she's only got a +3.

[Keneth]

Yep, it's two-handed for her and she gets a -2 penalty to attack. If she didn't have EWP, she wouldn't be able to wield it at all.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC there is an archetype (Titan mauler I think?) that can wield larger weapons.

[Slipperychicken]

Greatswords are already huge. You just could fluff yours as being preposterously large. I don't see the harm.

If you're playing level 12, Combat Reflexes combos well with the Come And Get Me power. It basically means you get to smack people to death outside your turn when they attack you.

Consider dipping 3 levels into Horizon Walker for Fatigue immunity, and the rage-cycling sexy goodness it offers.

When you fight spellcasters and archers (or just don't want people stepping out of your flank), Step Up is a great feat, it negates their 5ft step and Withdraw shenanigans and lets you take those AoOs against them.

The Invulnerable Rager archetype is nice, but not necessary. It is kind of funny to have the DM pit you against an army, only to realize your DR laughs it off, even before your mounds of HP. If you can somehow consistently convert damage against you into nonlethal, it can take edge off most damage.

Take Raging Vitality. Add 2 to Con while raging, and continue raging while unconscious (this negates the lethality of Barbarian KOs). This is not optional.

[Blyte]

I recommend wielding a 1hander two-handed. That way when you get grabbed (and you will in pathfinder) you can still attack the thing holding you with the weapon in one hand.

[Chained Birds]

One level of Oracle with the Lame curse can net you immunity to fatigue. It kicks in at Lvl 9 if you go at least Oracle 1 / Barbarian 8. This will allow you to rage cycle with minimum Multi-classing.

[Slipperychicken]

One level of Oracle with the Lame curse can net you immunity to fatigue. It kicks in at Lvl 9 if you go at least Oracle 1 / Barbarian 8. This will allow you to rage cycle with minimum Multi-classing.

Don't forget the Barbarian Fast Movement cancels it out, and your move speed no longer cares about encumbrance.

Also, am I the only one who finds it amusing that having crippled legs is a buff in Pathfinder?

[Chained Birds]

Also, am I the only one who finds it amusing that having crippled legs is a buff in Pathfinder?

That's Oracles for you. As Fluffy as they are Crunchy.

[TuggyNE]

That's Oracles for you. As Fluffy as they are Crunchy.

They sacrifice power for flavor!

[Slipperychicken]

They sacrifice power for flavor!

But they don't even get a Familiar! How can they have flavor without one?

[Arbane]

Consider dipping 3 levels into Horizon Walker for Fatigue immunity, and the rage-cycling sexy goodness it offers.

It's worth noting that rage-cycling isn't all that useful unless you have some of the 'once per rage' rage powers, like Powerful Blow and Surprise Accuracy. But since rage-cycling boosts them to once per _round_, that's a pretty big boost.

[Keneth]

This is a PF thread; There's no such thing as godsteel (which isn't even official 3.5 afaik), and there's no lion totem pouncing or shock trooper feat line.

[Chained Birds]

Martial Artist Monk also give immunity to Fatigue (at level 5), so making a Monk 5 / Barabarian 5-6 is an option. That is, if you like a Barbarian that can split boulders with his bare hands. :smallwink:

[Karoht]

2h weapon for Pushing Assault. High STR, High DEX, High CON, floor your int, floor your cha, meh your wisdom.
Pushing Assault + Come and Get Me + Combat Reflexes and high DEX. Be as large a size as possible and use a reach weapon. Avoid damage by playing keep away. If Come and Get Me sounds too risky for you, use Unexpected Strike with Pushing Assault instead.

Knockback can only be done once per round (says so in the feat), while Pushing Assault can be done with every attack, and you don't have to roll for it. The major advantage of Knockback is if you have Greater Bullrush, you/allies get to make AoO's.

Combo all of the above with Improved Overrun + Overbearing Advance + Overbearing Assault, and you are literally a monster truck driving over the battlefield, knocking everything prone, causing AoO's for your allies to take advantage of. And when you aren't being a monster truck, you take a position with that reach weapon taking up a huge chunk of the battlefield, and let enemies come forward and kill themselves upon your weapon with all your AoO's.

All of which comes online pretty early, and by 10 you are just an unstoppable juggernaut.


@How to Rage Cycle
Internal Fortitude Rage Power to make you immune to sickened and nauseated. Comes online by level 8.
There is an Ioun Stone, it is cheap, 8000 or less, and it converts fatigued and exausted into sickened and nauseated respectively. Which, with that rage power, you are immune to.

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/internal-fortitude-ex

[Chained Birds]

@How to Rage Cycle
Internal Fortitude Rage Power to make you immune to sickened and nauseated. Comes online by level 8.
There is an Ioun Stone, it is cheap, 8000 or less, and it converts fatigued and exausted into sickened and nauseated respectively. Which, with that rage power, you are immune to.

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/internal-fortitude-ex

Which Ioun stone is that?

[Karoht]

This one.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-green-cabochon
Scarlet and Green Cabochon.
Look under the Flawed entry.
You also get the Endurance feat for free out of the deal, which will allow you to sleep in your armor, and give you bonuses to saves against a few specific situations.

Enjoy.

[HyperInferno]

Depending on your group's playstyle, you can try out something a bit different. Fighters and barbarian's specializing in thrown weapons always amused me. Unarmed combat can be fun too.

My personal favorite, is to go for Catch off guard. Beat your opponents to death with a +3 table.

[Chained Birds]

This one.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-green-cabochon
Scarlet and Green Cabochon.
Look under the Flawed entry.
You also get the Endurance feat for free out of the deal, which will allow you to sleep in your armor, and give you bonuses to saves against a few specific situations.

Enjoy.

That is actually pretty cool. I never would have seen that as the description in the Ioun section just says something about "extra penalties".

Scratch the Oracle/Horizon Walker/Martial Artist Monk/Etc! Give all the Barbarians one of these stones and have them all take that Rage Power at some point!

[Karoht]

Once you have Rage Cycling as a thing, get Flesh Wound. Like, right away.
Once per round you can roll a fort save to turn an attack into partly non-lethal damage, and you only take half damage (no idea if DR applies before or after this conversion).
Superstition + Eater of Magic + Clear Mind means you get 2 rerolls on will saves, and a reroll on everything else.

So you've got Improved Evasion? Lets say after your reroll you still fail, so you take half damage. Flesh Wound, take half again, and it's non-lethal.

So yeah, as I said, you run around and bowl over groups of enemies like a monster truck, then plant yourself, yell out 'come at me bro' and be an immoveable object literally flinging your enemies around like rag dolls.

[Jeivar]

Wow, a lot of helpful suggestions. I guess I have a lot of homework to do.


2h weapon for Pushing Assault. High STR, High DEX, High CON, floor your int, floor your cha, meh your wisdom.
Pushing Assault + Come and Get Me + Combat Reflexes and high DEX. Be as large a size as possible and use a reach weapon. Avoid damage by playing keep away. If Come and Get Me sounds too risky for you, use Unexpected Strike with Pushing Assault instead.

Knockback can only be done once per round (says so in the feat), while Pushing Assault can be done with every attack, and you don't have to roll for it. The major advantage of Knockback is if you have Greater Bullrush, you/allies get to make AoO's.

Combo all of the above with Improved Overrun + Overbearing Advance + Overbearing Assault, and you are literally a monster truck driving over the battlefield, knocking everything prone, causing AoO's for your allies to take advantage of. And when you aren't being a monster truck, you take a position with that reach weapon taking up a huge chunk of the battlefield, and let enemies come forward and kill themselves upon your weapon with all your AoO's.

All of which comes online pretty early, and by 10 you are just an unstoppable juggernaut.


That's an interesting setup, though it does look mostly good of fighting large groups of weaker enemies. I generally try to go for rounded characters rather than specializing in any particular situation, but I'll keep this build in mind. Thanks.

[GoatBoy]

http://www.invisibleoranges.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/feature_by-this-axe-i-headbang-h.jpg

Pathfinder added a couple of feats which make shield use a little more worthwhile than it was in 3.5, and Power Attack's returns don't suffer as much with a one-handed weapon. Sword-and-board isn't optimal from a numbers standpoint, but it works okay.

But the true essence of the barbarian is one hand on your two-handed weapon, and the other hand on your buxom wench.

http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/77/frank_frazetta_afightingmanofmars.jpg

[Slipperychicken]

http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/77/frank_frazetta_afightingmanofmars.jpg

Link's broken. Followed the URL, and it's pretty good though. It's fixed now. Must have been my phone acting up on me.

[Squirrel_Dude]

IIRC there is an archetype (Titan mauler I think?) that can wield larger weapons.It's a trap. To quote the last sentence on weapon size:
If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.As such, the largest weapon you could wield would be a huge light melee weapon as a two-handed weapon.

So the only way to take advantage of the class and wield a huge weapon is to use a huge character's rapier, or something like it, as a two-handed weapon (gaining no benefits of reach or anything like that).

The normal damage for a rapier is 1d6.
The damage for a huge rapier would be.... 2d6.

Congratulations, you've accomplished nothing.



On topic: Two-handed. Two-weapon is really only effective if you are a character like a rogue who gets to add tons of damage dice, a Ranger if you get feats for free (and want to pick the lesser of the two fighting styles) or a Two-Weapon Warrior archetype Fighter.

Anything else and the feat investment and ability score investment is too high in most games.

[Slipperychicken]

Also, consider using Leadership to gain a smart, good-looking Bard Cohort to complete the album cover image. Treat her well (don't cheat on her) and get her gifts every so often (like the BBEG's skull), because she'll do a great job covering your Knowledge skills, utility, and IC bonuses. Put her feats into archery or something, and have her spells known geared toward buffs. Also, if she's a Savage Skald, she can give you "free" rage rounds via performance (if you somehow manage to run out of rage rounds at 12th level, you'll probably need it).

As for more feats, if multiple Barbarian PCs are Orcs or Half-Orcs, Amplify Rage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/amplified-rage-teamwork) might be valuable. Because how could you turn down ANOTHER +4 to strength and Con?