Making a Plus one level ajust into a plus zero.

[kiryoku]

Okay changed my mind. I want a ghost Elf now so everyone just edit their posts if you would. ^w^ sorry if this is confusing I just found it in a odd little book I forgot I had. XD

GHOST ELF.
+2wis
+2cha
-4 con

basic elf stuff imuune to sleep and +2spot search listen/ auto those skills.

replacement stuff
Pro with scimitar and short swords.
glow as candle 5' DC 10 to suppress with concentration.
and a bunch of spells iam cutting to drop the + one level ajust on it to a zero.
seems close to the if not slightly bellow the normal elf in my eyes.

[Deadline]

As I understand it, a net total of more than +2 stat boosts is supposed to be worth LA +1 all by itself. Particularly if it results in boosts to casting stats.

[kiryoku]

redid the choice in race so please repost and I will also.

[Sylthia]

Looks reasonable if it's as written, with no other perks. The -4 Con is harsh, though.

[Deadline]

Net + for attributes is +0, so it's probably good to go. It is one of a tiny handful of LA +0 races to have mental stat boosts. Depending on who you speak to, it might be better than a Gray Elf. That -4 Con is the kicker though, I think that puts it firmly in the realm of +0.

[kiryoku]

Ya that minus four is kinda harsh I even thought about giving it back the bows to balance it out though. or would that tilt it too much back into the +1 area? oh and I forgot it has Knowledge religion as a racial skill.

[dascarletm]

I recall reading that mental stats were worth half as much as physical stats...

[kiryoku]

SO the bows won't affect it too much then huh?

[Sylthia]

I don't think giving them bow proficiency would affect it too much. The ability bonus seem more geared toward casters and having access to slightly better ranged weapons doesn't seem like a deal breaker.

[TuggyNE]

I recall reading that mental stats were worth half as much as physical stats...

Um. Whoever wrote that is almost certainly lacking in their knowledge of 3.x optimization. Racial mental stat bonuses are at least as good as physical stat bonuses, with the possible exception of Cha and Con. This is because the classes that benefit most from them (casters, generally) gain considerably larger benefits from them than the classes that benefit from physical stats (mundanes, mostly). I.e., the value of a stat boost is based on its value to those who can best use it, not some sort of average to all characters.

[Sylthia]

Um. Whoever wrote that is almost certainly lacking in their knowledge of 3.x optimization. Racial mental stat bonuses are at least as good as physical stat bonuses, with the possible exception of Cha and Con. This is because the classes that benefit most from them (casters, generally) gain considerably larger benefits from them than the classes that benefit from physical stats (mundanes, mostly). I.e., the value of a stat boost is based on its value to those who can best use it, not some sort of average to all characters.

I'm not sure if that's his opinion, or what the publishers thought when designing the system. I don't remember where, but they said pretty much that physical stats had a bigger weight when designing races. They listed Half-orcs getting two penalties to balance their bonus to strength for example. That's not what I think, but I remember reading it somewhere.

[TuggyNE]

I'm not sure if that's his opinion, or what the publishers thought when designing the system. I don't remember where, but they said pretty much that physical stats had a bigger weight when designing races. They listed Half-orcs getting two penalties to balance their bonus to strength for example. That's not what I think, but I remember reading it somewhere.

I vaguely remember that about half-orcs as well. But I stand by my statement. :smalltongue:

[Sylthia]

I vaguely remember that about half-orcs as well. But I stand by my statement. :smalltongue:

If anything, I think it should be the other way around, where mental stats are weighted more.

[TuggyNE]

If anything, I think it should be the other way around, where mental stats are weighted more.

Probably so; I deliberately worded it rather conservatively, but casters get a really remarkable amount from their stats.

[Jeff the Green]

Honestly you could drop it to -2 Con and it'd be fine. Lesser aasimar is +2 Wis +2 Cha at LA +0, and while it's on the strong side it's not unquestionably better than human.

Also, what action does it take to suppress the light? If it's anything more than a free action I can see that being really annoying.

[Flickerdart]

If anything, I think it should be the other way around, where mental stats are weighted more.
Balancing stat adjustments based on the power of classes that use them seems a bit counter-productive, since having +2 Int is not what makes casters strong (and if you look at races, positive mental adjustments actually are much rarer than positive physical adjustments).

In terms of absolute stat value, I'd say Constitution, then Dexterity, then Wisdom are the most valuable stats when considered on their own. Everyone wants more HP and better Fort saves, then more AC, ranged to-hit (likely to be everyone's backup weapon), and initiative, as well as bonuses on a huge number of skills, are always welcome. Wisdom doesn't govern much, but it hits the final save, as well as the vital Spot and Listen skills.

Continuing in order, Intelligence is extra skill points, but many classes have lousy lists and don't benefit from it very much, Strength is only ever going to be useful if you're a melee beatstick (and the various ways of replacing it make it worth less) and Charisma is, well, Charisma.

-2 to Constitution, +2 to Wisdom and Charisma seems fine to me - sure, it's a race that casters will want, but Constitution penalties combined with low caster HD mean that surviving those lower levels is going to be risky. It does become a rather narrowly specialized race, though, since everyone except divine and spontaneous casters is going to find its adjustments detrimental. If all you're after is a custom race that's most optimal for your character, instead of a well-rounded homebrew, then I find myself unable to resist frowning upon it.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I'm not sure if that's his opinion, or what the publishers thought when designing the system. I don't remember where, but they said pretty much that physical stats had a bigger weight when designing races. They listed Half-orcs getting two penalties to balance their bonus to strength for example. That's not what I think, but I remember reading it somewhere.
It's certainly not what you're thinking of but it is from WotC and probably more recent (published 2006): d20 Future Tech makes a mention of this in a section about setting level adjustments for robots. It doesn't go as far as to weight physical abilities twice as high as mental, but it does say "especially Strength or Dexterity".

[kiryoku]

Okay soooooo we are saying now.

-2 con
+2 wis
+2cha

is okay right? o-o I am no expert on what is balanced I try. also its a free action to suppress the light. Thank the gods. x.x or else I would only be able to suppress it and stand there if it wasn't.

[TuggyNE]

Balancing stat adjustments based on the power of classes that use them seems a bit counter-productive, since having +2 Int is not what makes casters strong (and if you look at races, positive mental adjustments actually are much rarer than positive physical adjustments).

+2 Int isn't what makes casters strong, no, but I'd say they get at least as much out of it (more spells, higher DCs, even an extra skill point) as meleers get out of Str (higher attack, higher damage, higher effective maneuver DCs).

And, amusingly, the last parenthetical seems to indicate the opposite of your point; rarity often correlates well to value, so the fact that mental stat bonuses are rare may well add further support to the idea that they're valuable.


In terms of absolute stat value, I'd say Constitution, then Dexterity, then Wisdom are the most valuable stats when considered on their own. Everyone wants more HP and better Fort saves, then more AC, ranged to-hit (likely to be everyone's backup weapon), and initiative, as well as bonuses on a huge number of skills, are always welcome. Wisdom doesn't govern much, but it hits the final save, as well as the vital Spot and Listen skills.

Can't really argue with that. Just remember that design needs to take into account not only the normal case, but also the best and worst cases. Specifically, you have to consider likely optimal uses (+Int on a Wizard, +Con on a Barbarian) as well as semi-optimal uses (+Wis on a Wizard, +Dex on a Barbarian).


-2 to Constitution, +2 to Wisdom and Charisma seems fine to me - sure, it's a race that casters will want, but Constitution penalties combined with low caster HD mean that surviving those lower levels is going to be risky. It does become a rather narrowly specialized race, though, since everyone except divine and spontaneous casters is going to find its adjustments detrimental. If all you're after is a custom race that's most optimal for your character, instead of a well-rounded homebrew, then I find myself unable to resist frowning upon it.

Yeah, I have to agree with this as well; Con penalties are always rough for (nearly) all characters, though not quite as bad as penalties to the primary stat.