List of creatures/beings who could solo Xykon

[Mage Paradox]

Who could solo Xykon?

In terms of people we've seen in OOTS I'd say Haera, Ganonron, possibly Jephton, the Ancient Black Dragon, etc all have good cases. Dorukan when he isn't being forced to lose for plot reasons should also be able to win. Who else can take down Xykon one on one? An Ancient Red Dragon, a Solar, a Tarrasque, etc.

[DoctorWhooves]

Nobody in the plot so far has demonstrated an ability to best Xykon in combat.

[The_Tentacle]

Xykon is arguably the most powerful spellcaster on the material plane. It seemed like Soon at least could solo him - easily in fact. It has already been established (in SoD) that Xykon could not best gods. But I think that Xykon is currently the most powerful spellcaster, maybe even character, on the material plane.

[Mage Paradox]

Haerta, Ganonron and the Ancient Black Dragon have all demonstrated the ability to best Xykon. Even Dorukan, based on what we've seen of him, could do it if not acting like an idiot for plot reasons. Not sure where this "nobody can beat him" stuff is coming from. The guy has already lost to Soon, Roy, a Silver Dragon, etc. He's hardly unbeatable. Technically with alot of luck V could beat him in one round.

[Cheerios623]

As far as major characters, I think only the Monster in the Dark would win in a fair fight.

Any Order of the Scribble members may have had a chance, but most of them have perished. Is Serini still alive? She must be pretty high level by now.

It's been implied that V's Master (Aarindarius, I think?) would have been strong enough to beat the Adult Black Dragon, so he may have a chance against an epic lich sorcerer. Yet I can't imagine him leaving elvenlands to join the fray.

And of course many of the Gods or godlike characters should be able to crush Xykon. Thor, Tiamat, the Snarl, etc

[theinsulabot]

what about the ABD makes you think it has demonstrated the ability to best xykon?

not saying it wouldnt be a pretty good fight and all, but I do not believe it has any proven edge against him.

[Dr.Epic]

Nobody in the plot so far has demonstrated an ability to best Xykon in combat.

Well soul splice V if they weren't an idiot and didn't know how to take advantage of having two of the most powerful spellcaster attached to someone.

[Mage Paradox]

The first thing the ABD is going to do is turn on the anti-magic field. And Xykon has no answer to it that he has demonstrated except to run. Ergo if he stays to fight he dies. As I posted on another thread, Superb Dispelling doesn't actually dispel an AMF based on the actual spell description, so it can't do it. And even if it could, that would be a losing strategy. Xykon hasn't shown he can use more than 1 Epic Spell per day, and he'd need 6-10 uses per day (all of which are effective) to stop the 15+ level sorcerer dragon (who can cast AMF 6-10 times per day depending on whether she uses her 7th level slots too). In addition Xykon takes considerable damage with every use of Superb Dispelling, so he'd probably he dead after that many uses (even assuming it works, which it wouldn't).

[TRH]

At the highest end of their speculated ability range, the wizard from Tarquin's adventuring group might have a fighting chance, but only if they were well prepared with fire and negative energy protection, and if they are, in fact, epic level, which I honestly doubt. Still, TT are probably the most powerful adventuring group running around at this point, so if we're looking at "ordinary" mortals who could pull it off, they're the go-to guys.

Even if Serini's still alive (can't imagine her relinquishing something as valuable as that diary of hers without a fight), I doubt she could give Xykon too much trouble, but you never know.

Other than that, there are probably some sufficiently ancient dragons left running around the OOTS world that could take on the lich, high-level outsiders, and the Gods themselves, of course. Pretty short list, all things considered, but Xykon's feared for a reason, after all.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Haerta, Ganonron and the Ancient Black Dragon have all demonstrated the ability to best Xykon. Even Dorukan, based on what we've seen of him, could do it if not acting like an idiot for plot reasons. Not sure where this "nobody can beat him" stuff is coming from. The guy has already lost to Soon, Roy, a Silver Dragon, etc. He's hardly unbeatable. Technically with alot of luck V could beat him in one round.

What exactly are you counting as criteria for "Being able to Solo Xykon"? Cuz if it's Spells and Spell Slots, then no one. No one has ever been shown to be able to solo Xykon, neither in sheer power nor in any measurable capability.

He beat two of the spliced souls simultaneously, in addition to Vaarsuvius. He really didn't use a lot of spell slots. All he needed was a Sledgehammer called Energy Drain. He could beat the ABD, possibly instantly. Why? The ABD wasn't sure if she could take V without letting him/her waste their high level spell slots first. See above for why that's significant.

Soon had an overpowered BS homebrew template, and an ARMY. And Xykon (plus Redcloak) still took down the army before they got trashed. Alone I'm not sure Soon had the power to take Xykon, and certainly not when he was alive.

Why are you bringing up Dorukan? Xykon beat him. He beat him haaaaaard. He beat him like a red-headed step-goblin. And Dorukan launched an army of Angels after Xykon.

How is Xykon's victory not total and complete? How is it not legitimate? Because Dorukan's loss was not because of mechanics, but because of Roleplaying? Tough nuggets. That's the Game!

Xykon is more than a spell list. He is a savage combatant, with enough cunning to take every advantage presented to him. He's short-tempered and short-sighted, yes. But he's got one hell of a "people sense", and he can read them like a book. "Plot related reasons" is shorthand for "I don't like Roleplaying in my D&D".

[Mage Paradox]

What exactly are you counting as criteria for "Being able to Solo Xykon"? Cuz if it's Spells and Spell Slots, then no one. No one has ever been shown to be able to solo Xykon, neither in sheer power nor in any measurable capability.

Clearly some people have been, I named some of them. Technically V could beat Xykon in 1 round right now if he was lucky. Empowered Disintegrate (and he rolls high) can potentially one shot Xykon quite easily (even without scoring a critical hit), never mind if V adds a quickened spell that round. A level 17 V has numerous ways to beat Xykon in 1 round with luck, many of which I noted in another thread. Now that isn't to say he'd win in a fair fight, he'd need luck, but potentially he can win.


He beat two of the spliced souls simultaneously, in addition to Vaarsuvius. He really didn't use a lot of spell slots. All he needed was a Sledgehammer called Energy Drain.
He won because of plot, which had V act like an idiot. In that fight it was Xykon who had both luck and help from his minions, as well as an inherent advantage in the terrain. Any one of those bits of luck/plot goes different and Xykon dies. Energy drain wasn't sufficient, as we saw from the way the fight continued afterwards.


He could beat the ABD, possibly instantly. Why? The ABD wasn't sure if she could take V without letting him/her waste their high level spell slots first. See above for why that's significant.
Huh? The ABD was just being cautious. She clearly could take V, we saw as much.


Soon had an overpowered BS homebrew template, and an ARMY.
But any help Xykon got v.s V is irrelevant why now?


Why are you bringing up Dorukan? Xykon beat him. He beat him haaaaaard. He beat him like a red-headed step-goblin. And Dorukan launched an army of Angels after Xykon.
Nah, Dorukan was very clearly jobbed in that fight. Not only by poor choice of spells and poor prep (and plot, and jokes- prismatic spray doesn't work cos it is a black and white comic? LOL!), but in the fight itself he spends multiple rounds standing around doing nothing when he should be getting his turn to fight back. I think I counted about 5 or more rounds where instead of getting a turn, Dorukan just stands there and lets Xykon hit him (never considering he should teleport away for rest and more prep or anything like that, or I don't know, fight back).

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Clearly some people have been, I named some of them. Technically V could beat Xykon in 1 round right now if he was lucky. Empowered Disintegrate (and he rolls high) can potentially one shot Xykon quite easily (even without scoring a critical hit), never mind if V adds a quickened spell that round. A level 17 V has numerous ways to beat Xykon in 1 round with luck, many of which I noted in another thread. Now that isn't to say he'd win in a fair fight, he'd need luck, but potentially he can win.


He won because of plot, which had V act like an idiot. In that fight it was Xykon who had both luck and help from his minions, as well as an inherent advantage in the terrain. Any one of those bits of luck/plot goes different and Xykon dies. Energy drain wasn't sufficient, as we saw from the way the fight continued afterwards.

V will always fight like an idiot up until his/her character growth. (S)He is a High Level, appallingly bad optimized Wizard. (S)he leaped into combat against a shockingly powerful foe, 1) Flubbed a Will Save even Xykon was surprised (s)he failed, 2) Grossly overestimated the power of an Evocation Specialist, and 3) Proceeded to get beaten into the ground.

You seem to be of the opinion that "Plot" doesn't matter. Yeah. It does. Plot is what happens when you roll the dice. It's acting in character, even if meta-gaming would produce better results. V acted entirely according to her/his own character, and regardless of the numerical calculation you seem to be using, Roleplay beats Rollplay when it comes to OotS.


Huh? The ABD was just being cautious. She clearly could take V, we saw as much.

While I could point out that she still waited, I will concede that ABD was probably more powerful than V without the Splice and a good night's rest.


But any help Xykon got v.s V is irrelevant why now?

Are you really gonna say that an Army of Ghosts is equivalent to some Advice? Cuz that's all Xykon had from Redcloak. Redcloak couldn't make the DCs to effect V, and neither could Tsukiko. The Ghost Paladins, on the other hand, were Positive Energy Spirits (and thus could harm Xykon), and if they missed him they could still set up Flanks or merely force him to divide his attention.


Nah, Dorukan was very clearly jobbed in that fight. Not only by poor choice of spells and poor prep (and plot, and jokes- prismatic spray doesn't work cos it is a black and white comic? LOL!), but in the fight itself he spends multiple rounds standing around doing nothing when he should be getting his turn to fight back. I think I counted about 5 or more rounds where instead of getting a turn, Dorukan just stands there and lets Xykon hit him (never considering he should teleport away for rest and more prep or anything like that, or I don't know, fight back).

Again, you seem to be missing the main point I made. Spell Slots don't matter. Spells don't matter. Power is what advantage you have moment to moment, and Xykon is masterful in exploiting any advantage he sees. If Dorukan didn't attack when he had the chance, it was because he was being frickin zapped with Energy Drains, and was distracted by the pain and Xykon's sweet Screw You Speech.

But the funny thing is: SoD Spoilers
That's not the case here. Actually reading the book, I see Xykon first counters a spell from Dorukan. On his turn, Xykon uses two Energy Drains (either a rules breach or a houserule in place for Ootsverse, so you have a point here), and is then hit with some sort of Fire Attack by Dorukan. Xykon follows up with another two energy drains, with the second one sending Dorukan to the ground. While Dorukan uses his turn to get up from prone, Xykon swoops in and delivers a final Energy Drain.

So, no. Xykon did not get 5 free attacks. He was able to use Two Spells without Quickening (well, not obviously, anyway). So there is some rule-fudgery, but that's how the Ootsverse works. It isn't strictly a D&D universe. Narrative conventions and Chracters still dictate actions and events in the story. The fact is that Xykon won. And he won in a totally ruthless manner that show-cased his incredible talents and savagery.

[oppyu]

Roy Greenhilt :smallcool:

Take that, all of you 'the rules and mechanics of D&D are still relevant!' crowd, a mid-level fighter took down an epic level lich sorcerer. You'd think after that people would figure out that 'who would win if all characters were controlled by metagaming PCs' always comes second to 'who would win if it best suited the author's story'.

[DarkDain]

Why could Soon not of defeated him o.O epic level paladin? Undead are kind of their specialty ? And why not Tarquin, with adequate preparation? He's rich, epic, experienced, and has lots of magical trinkets.

Also, Durokan is an epic wizard right? Did he have no time to prepare spells for a confrontation with Xykon? Because as a wizard he should of been prepared for that kind of stuff.

[Mage Paradox]

V will always fight like an idiot up until his/her character growth. (S)He is a High Level, appallingly bad optimized Wizard. (S)he leaped into combat against a shockingly powerful foe, 1) Flubbed a Will Save even Xykon was surprised (s)he failed, 2) Grossly overestimated the power of an Evocation Specialist, and 3) Proceeded to get beaten into the ground.

You seem to be of the opinion that "Plot" doesn't matter. Yeah. It does. Plot is what happens when you roll the dice. It's acting in character, even if meta-gaming would produce better results. V acted entirely according to her/his own character, and regardless of the numerical calculation you seem to be using, Roleplay beats Rollplay when it comes to OotS.
We're talking about characters who are powerful enough to beat Xykon independent of the plot. Plot is never an argument for why someone can't beat someone else, when discussing a hypothetical rumble.


Are you really gonna say that an Army of Ghosts is equivalent to some Advice? Cuz that's all Xykon had from Redcloak. Redcloak couldn't make the DCs to effect V, and neither could Tsukiko. The Ghost Paladins, on the other hand, were Positive Energy Spirits (and thus could harm Xykon), and if they missed him they could still set up Flanks or merely force him to divide his attention.
The point is Xykon got help which made it no mere one on one fight, not that the two things are exactly equal.
1) Booby trap that cost V hir last time stop spell
2) Mind fog spell that Xykon couldn't cast (and which he'd need to have used up a round to cast)
3) Knowledge of soul splices, which let Xykon use better tactics he would not normally have tried (since Superb Dispelling would have been a crap plan against someone with the associated stats possessed by an epic wizard).
Xykon also lucked out- spells missed, Xykon made hard saves, V picked poorly from hir spells available, etc.


If Dorukan didn't attack when he had the chance, it was because he was being frickin zapped with Energy Drains, and was distracted by the pain and Xykon's sweet Screw You Speech.
Um, except under the rules talking is a free action, and Dorukan should have been getting turns of his own... instead for plot reasons he stands around and does nothing while being blasted. Dumb.


But the funny thing is: SoD Spoilers
That's not the case here. Actually reading the book, I see Xykon first counters a spell from Dorukan. On his turn, Xykon uses two Energy Drains (either a rules breach or a houserule in place for Ootsverse, so you have a point here), and is then hit with some sort of Fire Attack by Dorukan. Xykon follows up with another two energy drains, with the second one sending Dorukan to the ground. While Dorukan uses his turn to get up from prone, Xykon swoops in and delivers a final Energy Drain.

So, no. Xykon did not get 5 free attacks. He was able to use Two Spells without Quickening (well, not obviously, anyway). So there is some rule-fudgery, but that's how the Ootsverse works. It isn't strictly a D&D universe. Narrative conventions and Chracters still dictate actions and events in the story. The fact is that Xykon won. And he won in a totally ruthless manner that show-cased his incredible talents and savagery.
Um, no. Let's review the obvious plot forced victory against Dorukan.
1) Dorukan comes out to fight with no prep or protection against negative energy
2) Dorukan uses Gate, but summons crappy foes who are poorly suited to beat Xykon
3) Dorukan stands around doing nothing while the gated horde of angels fights Xykon. No buffs we can see, no attacks, no nothing!
4) Dorukan gets 2 Energy Drains while Dorukan gets only 1 attack. Dorukan then does absolutely nothing while Xykon gets in 3 more energy drains!
5) Energy drain shouldn't dismiss his already active flight spell
6) When a flight spell is dispelled you float safely to the ground, you don't crash uncontrollably.
7) Prismatic spray is both a dumb spell to use on a lich, and shouldn't be negated by a black and white comic.
8) Dorukan uses no quickened spells (which would grant him two attacks per round instead of one).
9) Dorukan does not try to teleport away as he is losing.

Anyone who takes that fight as proof of Xykon being more powerful than Dorukan is being incredibly silly.

[Prinygod]

So, no. Xykon did not get 5 free attacks. He was able to use Two Spells without Quickening (well, not obviously, anyway). So there is some rule-fudgery, but that's how the Ootsverse works. It isn't strictly a D&D universe. Narrative conventions and Chracters still dictate actions and events in the story. The fact is that Xykon won. And he won in a totally ruthless manner that show-cased his incredible talents and savagery.

At this point in the comic (chronologically) it was still 3.0. So a haste effect would allow a second spell thanks to the partial action granted by 3.0 haste. We never see him cast haste, but we might have not been shown it. I have no other comment about the fight.

[SadisticFishing]

Xykon having Haste but Dorukan not would still be ridiculous. Smart people should get the right spells, especially when it's time for combat that he knew was coming.

Dorukan vs Xykon was probably the most moment in the entire comic. It was absurd. Accord to the Giant, though (if I'm remembering right), Dorukan did attack more, he just didn't do enough to show on screen. But it seemed cheesy and fake to anyone with any knowledge of the rules.

Otherwise, assuming Xykon is the level 20 caster he acts like, he can be beaten by a few things. Soon beat him by being higher level and having high saves, like a paladin. Live Soon could probably have taken him, too - he appears to be higher level, and epic people have lots of things going for them.

Xykon would have lost to Darth V too, if Redcloak hadn't been there.

ABD vs Xykon depends on how Superb Dispelling works in OotS, and whether or not Xykon has any other aces up his sleeve. I'd expect that Xykon would win, and I'd assign it about a 60% chance, given my current knowledge. Ignoring plot, which raises it to 100%.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

We're talking about characters who are powerful enough to beat Xykon independent of the plot. Plot is never an argument for why someone can't beat someone else, when discussing a hypothetical rumble.

Oh. Oh I see. I get it now. You don't actually want to see "What character could beat Xykon". You want to see "What collection of levels, skills, feats and spells could defeat an Epic Level Lich Sorcerer".

You can't split Mechanics and Character like that, you just can't. Xykon is more than the sum of his parts. He is more than his stats would indicate. And that goes for all the characters in the story. A hypothetical rumble, hypothetical it may be (hypothetically), must still take into account the actual Characters being discussed, not just their power sets. Xykon's power set could also be used by a benevolent Good Sorcerer, the kind of guy who would never take a cheap shot at his opponent or strike at a defenseless foe.

The Character Matters.


The point is Xykon got help which made it no mere one on one fight, not that the two things are exactly equal.
1) Booby trap that cost V hir last time stop spell
2) Mind fog spell that Xykon couldn't cast (and which he'd need to have used up a round to cast)
3) Knowledge of soul splices, which let Xykon use better tactics he would not normally have tried (since Superb Dispelling would have been a crap plan against someone with the associated stats possessed by an epic wizard).
Xykon also lucked out- spells missed, Xykon made hard saves, V picked poorly from hir spells available, etc.

Ahem.

1. It is never mentioned who set up that booby trap. Just that Xykon admitted it was not a waste of an afternoon to put it up.
2. Mind fog did literally nothing as V was immune/crazy resistant.
3. I agree. He got great advice from his Ally and he was pretty lucky with his own saves. And indeed, V did pick spells poorly, as that was in Character.

Although Superb Dispelling is not a "crap plan" as you have said, since even if V wasn't Soul Spliced it still would have screwed V's magical protections/Flight. No Save.


Um, except under the rules talking is a free action, and Dorukan should have been getting turns of his own... instead for plot reasons he stands around and does nothing while being blasted. Dumb.

:smallannoyed: I agreed with you on this. The rules were not properly used. Ootsverse, however, does not work on D&D rules 100% of the time.

To quote a marginally related comic: "There's a special place in hell reserved for those who die complaining about the rules."


Um, no. Let's review the obvious plot forced victory against Dorukan.
1) Dorukan comes out to fight with no prep or protection against negative energy

He was angry that his girlfriend/lover had been murdered and had her soul stolen. Really, really angry. So angry that when Xykon brought out the soul gem she was in, he couldn't stand to wait any longer. Why can't "bad planning" be used for a hypothetical rumble? If you just want to see who can splatter who first given everyone rolls perfectly, then whoever has the higher initiative will win.


2) Dorukan uses Gate, but summons crappy foes who are poorly suited to beat Xykon

Crappy foes? The same crappy foes who visibly injured Xykon? The same crappy foes who wounded him enough to where he apparently decided to quit his own bullcrap and "Get Serious", as he says to himself?


3) Dorukan stands around doing nothing while the gated horde of angels fights Xykon. No buffs we can see, no attacks, no nothing!

Xykon mentions (after he mops up the angels), that Dorukan has had time to cast a bunch of defensive spells and buffs. It happened offscreen, like a lot of Durkon's healing and buffing spells, as an example.


4) Dorukan gets 2 Energy Drains while Dorukan gets only 1 attack. Dorukan then does absolutely nothing while Xykon gets in 3 more energy drains!

Again, Character. Dorukan is getting visibly shaken (this face: :eek:) by his overwhelming opponent. He's panicking because he's losing, and all his spells are going away from the Energy Drains. I have conceded that there is probably an amount of DM Fiat going on here, but I just want to point out Dorukan's mental status as he's dying, and how the Character acts is different from how a "Character Sheet Character" acts.


5) Energy drain shouldn't dismiss his already active flight spell

Again, DM Fiat/Houserule. There have been others in Oots.


6) When a flight spell is dispelled you float safely to the ground, you don't crash uncontrollably.

Same as above.


7) Prismatic spray is both a dumb spell to use on a lich, and shouldn't be negated by a black and white comic.

Rule of Funny, but I concede your point.


8) Dorukan uses no quickened spells (which would grant him two attacks per round instead of one).

Again, Ootsverse is highly unoptimized. Most people build their characters in this world on flavor alone, leading to horrible builds and missed tactical opportunities. I think Rich has a quote about that somewhere.


9) Dorukan does not try to teleport away as he is losing.

And leave his beloved in the hands of that monster? When has anyone acted so coldly and rationally when a loved one was in mortal/immortal peril?


Anyone who takes that fight as proof of Xykon being more powerful than Dorukan is being incredibly silly.

Anyone who sacrifices Character for Mechanics is also very silly, though in an adorably serious sort of way :smalltongue:.

[Mage Paradox]

ABD vs Xykon depends on how Superb Dispelling works in OotS, and whether or not Xykon has any other aces up his sleeve. I'd expect that Xykon would win, and I'd assign it about a 60% chance, given my current knowledge.

While I agree with you on the rest, this above comment is just silly.
1) Here is how logic works- unless we have any reason to assume Xykon is using a homebrewed/OOTS-verse version of Superb Dispelling, then we don't assume it. And right now we have no reason to assume it.
2 You don't grant characters abilities and powers they don't show they possess. It would be like me claiming Xykon loses to V because V has hidden Epic items we don't know about (plus a homebrewed spell called "kill-Lich-in-1-hit"). Xykon gets the powers he has shown he has, same as everyone else, but until we get good evidence he has other powers... well, he doesn't get them.
3) Let's assume Superb Dispelling works on an AMF (for the sake of argument). Xykon has not given us any evidence he has the 10 Epic Spell slots he will need to match the number of times the ABD can cast AMF.
4) Let's assume for the sake of argument Xykon also has 10 Epic Spell slots, and every time he uses Superb Dispelling he is successful. He also takes 10d6 damage every time he uses it. 10 uses takes up to 600 hit points. Xykon, even on quite generous estimates, is at around 200. This is not a viable strategy.

His chances are not "60%" based on the powers he has shown us, they're more like 0%. Xykon has only one option really- run away. The ABD is the huge favourite to win, Xykon has almost no options.

[Mage Paradox]

The Character Matters.
No it doesn't. In a rumble (or hypothetical fight) posters assume both characters are bloodlusted and fight to the best of their abilities. It's a non-argument to say "Goku loses, because he would never kill a good guy like Batman". Even if this is not how you discuss hypothetical fights, it's the question I'm asking in this thread. If you don't want to contribute to that question, I guess don't post in here. Trying to tell me I have to factor in things like plot or characterisation in my thread is silly and not going to wash with me (or many others here I imagine).



1. It is never mentioned who set up that booby trap. Just that Xykon admitted it was not a waste of an afternoon to put it up.
Who cares who set it up? It was still an advantage that potentially costs V the fight.


2. Mind fog did literally nothing as V was immune/crazy resistant.
After Xykon used Superb Dispelling it sure did something- it caused V to go hazy, which gave Xykon a free attack (when it should have been V's turn), and caused hir to lose the splices.


Although Superb Dispelling is not a "crap plan" as you have said, since even if V wasn't Soul Spliced it still would have screwed V's magical protections/Flight. No Save.
V would have been unlikely to be affected by mindfog, which means V doesn't get crushed with a rock, and keeps the splices (and potentially wins out).


Crappy foes? The same crappy foes who visibly injured Xykon? The same crappy foes who wounded him enough to where he apparently decided to quit his own bullcrap and "Get Serious", as he says to himself?
Given the sort of things people can Gate in to fight once they hit Epic levels, there is no question Dorukan summoned some pretty crap help.



Xykon mentions (after he mops up the angels), that Dorukan has had time to cast a bunch of defensive spells and buffs. It happened offscreen, like a lot of Durkon's healing and buffing spells, as an example.
Useless defensive spells apparently. And Xykon says he "probably" was using that time to do it, there is no evidence he did. Why on earth didn't he use the many, many, many rounds Xykon spends fighting the angels to, I don't know, help them! He could do that AND cast buffs. It's not an either/or situation given the number of rounds we're talking about.


I have conceded that there is probably an amount of DM Fiat going on here, but I just want to point out Dorukan's mental status as he's dying, and how the Character acts is different from how a "Character Sheet Character" acts.
So the rules are handwaved for plot reasons. That's what I said oddly enough. Without plot getting in the way Dorukan should be fine against Xykon.

[SadisticFishing]

Xykon has access to several ways to take the ABD out of the picture, including a paralyzing touch attack.

Why do you say the ABD has 10 castings of AMF? Ancient Black Dragons are only level 11 sorcerers, technically she has zero castings. Hopping to 10 from there seems a bit absurd, unless I'm missing something.

Xykon's DR also means that most of the ABD's natural attacks barely touch him.

Assuming Xykon is exactly as he looks and has no extra hidden things to make the last fight more interesting seems like a weird misunderstanding of both the character and the way storytelling and DMing work. He's the last boss (or right up there), he's definitely got something we don't know about. Note O'chul's "partial" spell list, not the whole thing. On top of that, Superb Dispelling, as it should work, would destroy the AMF. The spell is clearly a mistake, as it's built from it's parts. It would be like a drow druid 'monster' not having the spellcasting class feature. Not how the rules work.

Anyway, the reason I went for 60% Xykon and not 100% Xykon is because I'm not assigning a super high probability to him having an ace up his sleeve. It's probably >0.5, but that doesn't necessarily imply that it's the right one for the fight.

If everything works exactly the way you think it does (which it doesn't), then yes, the ABD would beat Xykon in a fight.

[Copperdragon]

Who could solo Xykon?

A level 1 Kobold under the right circumstances. Context is all that matters in "who could kill whom". Context is items, preparation, environment, etc.

Let's take a Level 9000 Caster. He walks into a stone chamber and the level 1 mook opens the floodgates. If the floodgates are big enough common water (and not lava, acid, whatever) will be enough to drown the Mega Caster. After his surprise round, that'd have been it.

Causing a rockslide or slitting his throat while he sleeps (rules: coup de grace) would be other options that come to mind.

A level 9 Fighter throwing a careless Xykon into a superpowerful sigil would be a very specific case where Xykon already has been killed.

[ZerglingOne]

Great Smiting [Epic]
Prerequisites

Cha 25, smite ability (from class feature or domain granted power).
Benefit

Whenever you make a successful smite attack, add twice the appropriate level to damage (rather than just your level).
Special

You may select this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. Remember that two doublings equals a tripling, and so forth.

Pretty sure Soon had that one wrapped up whether he was a Ghost Martyr or not. Probably even more so if he was alive because he'd be immune to RC's Turn Undead.

[Mage Paradox]

Xykon has access to several ways to take the ABD out of the picture, including a paralyzing touch attack.
Dragons are immune to paralysis. The Paralysis will not work through the AMF. Getting close enough to try and do it will make it that much easier for the dragon to grapple Xykon, at which point the fight is over, and Xykon is helpless.


Why do you say the ABD has 10 castings of AMF? Ancient Black Dragons are only level 11 sorcerers, technically she has zero castings. Hopping to 10 from there seems a bit absurd, unless I'm missing something.
The ABD needs to be level 15, based on the spells she used. That gives her six level 6 spells, and another four level 7 slots (which she can use on level 6 spells as well).


Xykon's DR also means that most of the ABD's natural attacks barely touch him.
DR is negated in an AMF. Once Xykon is grappled in the AMF he will be as helpless as V was.


Assuming Xykon is exactly as he looks and has no extra hidden things to make the last fight more interesting seems like a weird misunderstanding of both the character and the way storytelling and DMing work. He's the last boss (or right up there), he's definitely got something we don't know about. Note O'chul's "partial" spell list, not the whole thing. On top of that, Superb Dispelling, as it should work, would destroy the AMF. The spell is clearly a mistake, as it's built from it's parts. It would be like a drow druid 'monster' not having the spellcasting class feature. Not how the rules work.
Invoking plot is not an argument which responds to the thread. This thread is about characters who legitimately could beat Xykon in a fair one on one fight. Arguing Xykon can't win because plot protects him is not an argument that responds to my question. And no, Superb Dispelling should not work, and even if it did it would be irrelevant for the aforementioned reasons.

[SadisticFishing]

Superb Dispelling SHOULD work. IT uses the dispel seed, which works on things that can't be dispelled. I forgot Dragons were immune to paralysis, that one's a good point.

Supernatural DR surprised me.

Why would Xykon be helpless when grappled? He has Still Meteor Swarm.

I'm not calling "plot". I'm calling "likely unknown powers". There's a huge difference.

Also, 10d6x10 is not 600.

[Grim Portent]

Technically no one. Since Xykon doesn't carry his phylactery with him any one on one battle between him and another creature doesn't involve the phylactery. Xykon becomes functionally unkillable since he'll just reapear after a few weeks and can simply spend the rest of time returning to periodically fight his opponent, he has no reason to concede or stop in his efforts after all, until he either kills them or they die of other means.

If we assume it to be a fight that doesn't require the true death of the combatants to declare a victor then the best bet would have been members of the Scribble, but they lacked the necessary character traits to win when they have fought him one by one so far so while they had the mechanical strength to win they lacked the correct mindset.

[Mage Paradox]

Superb Dispelling SHOULD work. IT uses the dispel seed, which works on things that can't be dispelled. I forgot Dragons were immune to paralysis, that one's a good point.

Supernatural DR surprised me.

Why would Xykon be helpless when grappled? He has Still Meteor Swarm.

I'm not calling "plot". I'm calling "likely unknown powers". There's a huge difference.

Also, 10d6x10 is not 600.

1) The seed merely says that spells using it can dispel things they ordinarily wouldn't, not that they will do so. I can for instance think of a number of spells dispel ordinarily fails against, which it would be absurd for Superb Dispelling to function against. At the end of the day, you take the spell based on the actual description. Actual description does not let it dispel an AMF.
2) It is irrelevant if it does work, since a) Xykon hasn't shown more than one Epic spell slot per day, let alone 10, and b) using it that many times would kill him.
3) Still Meteor Swarm is not an Epic spell, and so will not work against the AMF. When he's pinned he'll be in an AMF. And as such he'll be helpless. Even if it was an Epic Spell, it would be no sure thing that it could work through the AMF.

Just admit that, what we know of Xykon so far (based on actual feats and evidence) does not support him being able to beat the ABD and be done with it.

[SadisticFishing]

Finger of Death, Mass Hold Person, clever Contingencies... There are many ways Xykon could take down the ABD. ABD in her AMF gets teleported away from. She sleeps, he doesn't. Also, she's now dead, so she definitely can't take him on.

Like most mage duels, it comes down to Initiative, and/or sneaking up. Xykon is quite good at sneaking up on people if he likes. I don't remember how Ghostform interacts with AMFs, but I assume it ends up favouring the ghostform for escaping.

Xykon could also have spent some of his time researching a more useful combat oriented epic spell. Matter of fact, I would be shocked if he had not, it wouldn't fit the character at all.

One failed save and the ABD is dead. One failed grapple and Xykon is back in the phylactery assuming all works as planned for ABD.

60-40.

[Mage Paradox]

Finger of Death, Mass Hold Person, clever Contingencies... There are many ways Xykon could take down the ABD. ABD in her AMF gets teleported away from. She sleeps, he doesn't. Also, she's now dead, so she definitely can't take him on.

Like most mage duels, it comes down to Initiative, and/or sneaking up. Xykon is quite good at sneaking up on people if he likes. I don't remember how Ghostform interacts with AMFs, but I assume it ends up favouring the ghostform for escaping.

Xykon could also have spent some of his time researching a more useful combat oriented epic spell. Matter of fact, I would be shocked if he had not, it wouldn't fit the character at all.

One failed save and the ABD is dead. One failed grapple and Xykon is back in the phylactery assuming all works as planned for ABD.

60-40.

The first thing the Dragon is going to do is use the AMF, especially in a bloodlusted fight/a fight where we assume they are both trying (and if they act in character, that's alot more helpful to the Dragon, since Xykon acts like an idiot in character quite alot, and rarely tries until things get serious). The AMF blocks all the spells you have suggested. So Xykon is screwed. Ghostform does not escape. You're just inventing stuff. Your plan is for Xykon to run away. That's what I said Xykon's only hope was from the start. If Xykon has to run away, he didn't win the fight. Certainly not if he needs to run off and spend months/years preparing for round 2 (assuming the ABD couldn't find him, given she has access to an Oracle).

This isn't about whether Xykon can't regen in his Phylactery over a period of months (though I'm sure an ABD with the resources shown could find that too). It's about whether Xykon would win in the first instance. Clearly Xykon would not win.

[SadisticFishing]

Assuming ADB wins intiative and there is no surprise, yes, AMF wins the day if they're close enough together.

Also, AMF doesn't work on Moderately Escapable Forcecage. It comes down to Initiative. If ABD wins, Xykon can likely run away. If Xykon wins, he is likely to win the fight.

[Mage Paradox]

Assuming ADB wins intiative and there is no surprise, yes, AMF wins the day if they're close enough together.

Also, AMF doesn't work on Moderately Escapable Forcecage. It comes down to Initiative. If ABD wins, Xykon can likely run away. If Xykon wins, he is likely to win the fight.

1) Initiative doesn't really matter, because Xykon has no way to beat the Dragon before the AMF comes up (as you concede). If the only thing Xykon can do is run away, and hope to fight another day... well, Xykon didn't win then, did he?
2) Do you know how much distance an ABD can cover in a single turn? It's pretty crazy. Basically if Xykon is within eye shot of the Dragon, she can reach him within a turn and grapple him. She also gets like 6 attacks per turn.

It's weird to see you continually assert Xykon has a 60-40 chance... I mean, even if you thought that initially, surely one would think the first 10 ideas you had shot down would require you to re-evaluate those odds... but instead it's still 60-40 for some reason. Dragons also favour a feat that improves their initiative... (and teleporting in would grant a surprise round anyway).

[factotum]

Assuming ADB wins intiative and there is no surprise, yes, AMF wins the day if they're close enough together.

Does it, though? I said this in another thread--I'm pretty sure that AMF doesn't counteract Xykon's extremely high damage resistance. V got easily beaten without his magic because he's a squishy d4 hit dice caster with no natural weapons, whereas a lich is a d12 hit dice undead monstrosity with significant natural weapons; even without his spells, I don't think it would be as one-sided a fight as all that.

[Mage Paradox]

Does it, though? I said this in another thread--I'm pretty sure that AMF doesn't counteract Xykon's extremely high damage resistance. V got easily beaten without his magic because he's a squishy d4 hit dice caster with no natural weapons, whereas a lich is a d12 hit dice undead monstrosity with significant natural weapons; even without his spells, I don't think it would be as one-sided a fight as all that.

DR is a supernatural ability for a Lich, and AMF cancels out supernatural abilities. He's as helpless as V basically.

[SadisticFishing]

He has no significant natural weapons. Whether or not he loses his DR is up for debate, AMF isn't perfectly clear.

Eh? Finger of Death, Forcecage, and Mass Hold Person all take the (already dead) ABD out of the fight.

Edit: 60-40 was given that there were things I was missing. I'm actually pretty well calibrated.

[JCAll]

DR is a supernatural ability for a Lich, and AMF cancels out supernatural abilities. He's as helpless as V basically.

Except for the part where even if he dies he'll just regenerate, and how there's nothing he has any real attachment to that ABD can threaten.

[quasit]

About the ABD (almost )any caster trapped on an amf is toast: period.
As superb dispelling is an epic spell , methinks he cannot apply metamagic feats onto it. He must develop one that includes a no movement clause (and a huge modifier to the spellcraft roll).
The point is: depending on distance of the encounter, surprise and initiative results may vary. Abruptly.
Say if Xykon got the chance to cast his favoured energy drain on the dragon before he could act, those spell slots might go away quickly (and grant the dragon a 2-8 penalty on attack rolls next turn, pretty nifty as he might get lucky and do severe damage on a full attack action).
Xykon have at least a 11 level slot: it's nothing to disregard. With ludicrous charisma stat and some feats an heightened(I know, he didn't showed us if he has this feat) finger of death would be a serious save or die. Even for a dragon.
Plot wise, if the black dragon was cautious with V, he'd be EXTREMELY cautious with sb like X; so if they would ever engage in a figth I strongly doubt it'd be a fair one. Also idt abd would live to reach ancient category rushing headlong into sadistic undead that totally hate scry-and-die tactics (when pulled on him) like that often.

[Mage Paradox]

AMF is extremely clear.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
And DR is a supernatural abiliy: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm
Not that it matters, since once grappled Xykon has no means to escape, and all DR would do is delay the amount of time it takes for the Dragon to crush his skeleton into powder.


Eh? Finger of Death, Forcecage, and Mass Hold Person all take the (already dead) ABD out of the fight.
I assume these are meant to be spells that will kill the Dragon, on the proviso they will be used before the Dragon puts up the AMF. Let's review why each of these fails (and why you're wrong yet again):
1) Forcecage will be negated by the AMF, just like V's was. Fail 1.
2) Mass Hold Person only works on Humanoid Creatures, not Dragons. Fail 2.
3) Finger of Death only kills if the Fortitude save fails. Dragons have insane amounts of Fortitude and Constitution (they make O'Chul look like jelly), and ABD's alone get +23 to their Fortitude Save (not "23", plus 23 to what are already crazily high numbers). They also have high spell resistance (25 for Ancient Black Dragons). So the chances of this spell working are basically non-existent. In addition this could be counter spelled (we've seen the ABD has Finger of Death herself). Fail 3.
EDIT- and maximizing Finger of Death literally does nothing. You'd just be throwing away a high spell slot since it confers no further bonus to the spell.

[quasit]

3) Finger of Death only kills if the Fortitude save fails. Dragons have insane amounts of Fortitude and Constitution (they make O'Chul look like jelly), and ABD's alone get +23 to their Fortitude Save (not "23", plus 23 to what are already crazily high numbers). They also have high spell resistance (plus 25 for Ancient Black Dragons, and this is a 15th level caster). So the chances of this spell working are basically non-existent. Fail 3.

I thought the saves value showed were calculated taking into account the stats, modifiers, feats and so on (as others like attack rolls, full atack, average hp) the plus being a total modifyer to the roll. Weird. :smallconfused:

And yes, +23 alone is pretty insane for a fort save, but in this case it'd be around a 25-40% chance of blowing it and dying (just an approximation). A lucky shot is still an option, especialy if ABD manages to gain a few negative levels (very likely if the AMF-and-screw-you plan somehow fails).

Edit: Overcoming spell resistance is a caster-level check (1d20 plus level).
If abd just got a 25 SR X probably fails only on an unmodified 1 in a d20 roll. (he's epic, got 1+ extended spell slot feat, knows 2 or more epic spells...i tihnk he would be at least on the mid-twenties level range).

[Mage Paradox]

I thought the saves value showed where calculated taking into account the stats, modifiers, feats and so on (as others like attack rolls, full atack, average hp) the plus being a total modifyer to the roll. Weird. :smallconfused:

And yes, +23 alone is pretty insane for a fort save, but in this case it'd be around a 25-40% chance of dying if he blows it (just an approximation). A lucky shot is still an option, especialy if ABD manages to gain a few negative levels (very likely if the AMF-and-screw-you plan somehow fails).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm
Technically it's a 100% chance of dying if you fail the save I think. While I'm no expert on the calculations of this stuff, I'd expect the odds for failing the saving throw would be crazily low. Never mind Spell Resistance/dodging the attack (and the fact the Dragon gets 6 attacks per round, and is able to move futher in a single round than the spell range Xykon has for Finger of Death).

Not sure why you're mentioning Negative levels... also, don't care about plot.

[SadisticFishing]

Forcecage is not stopped by AMF. It's in the spell description. Interesting that the comic doesn't always follow the rules, eh.

Xykon could easily have a DC of 30+. Why have it, otherwise? Hehe, Mass Hold Dragon. Oops.

Anyway, epic spellcasters are more dangerous than you expect. Contingency also is super interesting and could do any number of things.

25 spell resistance is literally irrelevant. Xykon makes his check on a -2.

Edit: Oh, right, you don't play D&D. Finger of Death kills on a failed save and has no touch attack to be made.

[quasit]

well , very bad wording on my previous post. My bad.
I meant "about 25-40% chance of blowing the save and dying".
I mentioned negative levels because for each one of them bestowed on a creature, substract one to ANY roll made by the victim.
Example: :xykon:"Maximized energy drain (dumbass)" means "-8 to everything". That's why a battery of them are so nasty for almost any living being (alas, poor dorukan).

[Mage Paradox]

Forcecage is not stopped by AMF. It's in the spell description. Interesting that the comic doesn't always follow the rules, eh.
Sure, Rich broke the rules (as he has done in other instances too, like his homebrewed Mass Death Ward spell). So it's ok to assume AMF doesn't function normally in OOTS, because Rich has shown us it doesn't. That doesn't mean we assume nothing works as it normally does. First Rich would need to show evidence to support that. Since Rich has not shown any evidence for Superb Dispelling to work other than as it is described to, it only works as specified. This isn't compleex.


Xykon could easily have a DC of 30+. Why have it, otherwise? Hehe, Mass Hold Dragon. Oops.
So you're wrong again. What are we up to for this thread? 10 errors? If I had made 10 errors in one 2 page thread I know I'd be a little more cautious before talking down to the other side of the argument next time around. And no, inventing spells for Xykon like this doesn't fly (as you know).


Anyway, epic spellcasters are more dangerous than you expect. Contingency also is super interesting and could do any number of things.
See above- vague speculation about unhinted at abilities is not an argument. You've had this explained repeatedly at this point. Otherwise we can play this game for every character- the Dragon pulls out his anti-lich spell and one shots Xykon. Or whips out her unseen epic magic items. End fight. This is not an argument. Contingency also can't work within an AMF.


25 spell resistance is literally irrelevant. Xykon makes his check on a -2.
Depends if we assume he's level 21+ or level 27+. I'm happy to go with him being 27+, I think he should be... but the current level and stats thread insists he could be 21.


Finger of Death kills on a failed save and has no touch attack to be made.
I'm the one who pointed that out. But the odds of the Dragon failing the save are so low as to be irrelevant, even without considering the Dragon's ability to counter spell it, to dodge it, SR, etc.

None of which matters, since Xykon can really do nothing but run.

[SadisticFishing]

Woah. You're an extremely hostile person who really dislikes other people's viewpoints, eh? Especially when they're backed up.

SadFish out.

[Mage Paradox]

well , very bad wording on my previous post. My bad.
I meant "about 25-40% chance of blowing the save and dying".
I mentioned negative levels because for each one of them bestowed on a creature, substract one to ANY roll made by the victim.
Example: :xykon:"Maximized energy drain (dumbass)" means "-8 to everything". That's why a battery of them are so nasty for almost any living being (alas, poor dorukan).

1) I am no expert on the calculations, but 25-40% looks wrong. How did you calculate that?
2) Energy Drain doesn't work like that actually. It's not a "minus 8 to everything". You don't instantly lose all your spells either. Even a maximized energy drain would still leave the Dragon with multiple uses of AMF.

[thereaper]

Rule of Plot > Rule of Funny > Game Mechanics

Do the mechanics of the game that the comic is based on theoretically allow the ABD to defeat Xykon? Maybe, maybe not (there is Energy Drain and Forcecage to consider, never mind the unknown spells and magic items Xykon possesses).

Is it possible for the ABD to defeat Xykon in the comic? Absolutely not. Roy on his own has a better chance than that.

Why? Because cheese is not allowed.

Do you have any idea how absurdly powerful forcecage is, as spells go? It's a spell that can instantly defeat most monsters. And yet, we have only seen it used twice. In both cases, it was used in a situation where the person being targeted had a way out.

Why? Because if they used it on someone that couldn't get out, it would be cheese, and cheese is not allowed.

If cheese were allowed, the comic (as we know it) would not exist.

There would be no fighters, because anyone with an int score above 2 would choose a caster class. And if they didn't have the requisite ability scores, then they wouldn't become a PC in the first place. It's just like how paraplegics don't adventure (in fact, in a D&D setting that allowed cheese, a paraplegic wizard might possibly be considered a stronger PC than the most optimized fighter).

There would be no farmers, because all food would be produced through create food/water traps.

There would be no humanoids, because dragons would have exploited their massive power and reproductive rate to out-compete them (or at the very least, overwhelm their gene pool through hybridization).

Heck, if cheese were allowed, there wouldn't be anyone over level 1. There would simply be those who had ascended to Pun-Pun, and those who had not. Those who had not, well... they're clearly not smart enough to make it past level 1. Those are the kinds of folks who jump into bottomless pits "just to see how much damage it'll do".

This comic represents a D&D setting. But a D&D setting (at least any that I've ever heard of) cannot exist unless cheese is banned (or at the very least, tightly regulated). To put it simply, cheese (when it's not being played for laughs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)) is not allowed in this comic.

This is why V can't abuse polymorph. And why Elan can't abuse diplomacy. And why Xykon didn't just trap Roy in a forcecage during their dragon fight.

So no, the ABD cannot beat Xykon with an antimagic field, because even if such a strategy were to be effective, the ABD is incapable of using cheese, just like everyone else. And using an antimagic field to shut down an epic level sorceror lich so that you can use your dragon strength to out-wrestle him is most definitely cheese.

Now, would you please get over this? We've had this thread before. It's time to move on.

[Mage Paradox]

Woah. You're an extremely hostile person who really dislikes other people's viewpoints, eh? Especially when they're backed up.

SadFish out.

Please, be less obvious about trying to escape the thread rather than do the classy thing and concede. You've been wrong about 10 or so times so far in half a dozen posts (Errors including: claiming Superb Dispelling would stop AMF, or was a viable strategy against a caster who can use it 10 times (1), you argued Xykon could use paralysing touch to win (2), you claimed Xykon would still have DR within the AMF (3), you disputed the ABD got 10 castings of AMF (4), you believed Xykon could use Still Meteor swarm while in an AMF (5), you said Mass Hold Person would work (6), you thought contingency would work in an AMF (7), you argued Forcecage would stop the ABD, when we've already seen it doesn't (8), You thought ghostform bypassed an AMF (9), You said Finger of Death was a viable way for Xykon to win if he attacked first, but failing the save is absurdly unlikely for an ABD (10), etc). You're in no position to be talking about how you "backed up" your arguments.

[quasit]

No need for "a hold dragon spell" or pulling a convenient "Repellent for dragons" out of his Lich-belt. Hold monster alone would suffice, thought I think he doesn't know neither one or another (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) :smallbiggrin:
Well I think that ABD chances on trashing xykon depend more on subletly and striking when xikon's more vulnerable, rather than try to solo him with raw force: That's exactly what V tried to do. And failed. Miserably.

[Mage Paradox]

As you say, can't give Xykon spells he hasn't shown. The chances are extremely high the spell will fail as well, given an ABD gets a plus 20 to their will save.

I don't understand why people keep referencing the plot. This is a hypothetical rumbles thread. It's asking who could beat Xykon in a fair fight, independent of the plot. Obviously nobody is asking if the ABD could win in the context of the comic... not least of all because she's dead.

[Kish]

I don't understand why people keep referencing the plot.
Because you incorrectly titled the thread, "List of creatures/beings who could solo Xykon," and people are posting on that topic, not, "List of abilities that could solo an epic lich sorcerer."

[Mage Paradox]

Because you incorrectly titled the thread, "List of creatures/beings who could solo Xykon," and people are posting on that topic, not, "List of abilities that could solo an epic lich sorcerer."

I have never before come across a forum in which hypothetical discussions about which 2 characters would win in a fight has been so consistently responded to with "that will never happen in the plot". Yes... I get that. Everyone gets that. But people can still discuss the fight hypothetically. This is a common thing on the internet as it happens.

[Raineh Daze]

For more fun, it's labelled list of beings that could solo Xykon, not will solo Xykon.

I don't think 'List of entities who could hypothetically solo Xykon based on their displayed (and calculable) capabilities' would fit as a name. :smallbiggrin:

[Grim Portent]

I have never before come across a forum in which hypothetical discussions about which 2 characters would win in a fight has been so consistently responded to with "that will never happen in the plot". Yes... I get that. Everyone gets that. But people can still discuss the fight hypothetically. This is a common thing on the internet as it happens.

If you wanted people to dismiss character traits you should have posted this in the roleplaying games forum and avoided any direct reference to the comic besides specifying a build for the Theoretical Lich Sorcerer derived from information found in the class and levels thread.

[FlawedParadigm]

I have never before come across a forum in which hypothetical discussions about which 2 characters would win in a fight has been so consistently responded to with "that will never happen in the plot". Yes... I get that. Everyone gets that. But people can still discuss the fight hypothetically. This is a common thing on the internet as it happens.

You're not getting it. The issue is you've asked a question you don't seem to want answered. Soon and the Silver Dragon (bonus strips) are the only characters so far to pose any kind of actual threat to Xykon. You've listed a number of other Arcane casters too, but seem to ignore the various plot reasons why they might not stand any chance at all. Haerta might be flat useless against Xykon depending on her barred schools. Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy are all next to useless against undead. Divination and Abjuration aren't likely to win fights. That leaves Evocation, Transmutation, and Conjuration and Haerta may have to to two of those barred.

Dorukan was an idiot. He had six months of Xykon sitting on his doorstep and didn't prepare better spells? He apparently didn't even have any non-flight long term buffs in place. Which is the other thing you're neglecting is that yes, some of the people you've listed might have a chance if they were optimised, but this being the Stickverse, chances are, they're not.

Seriously, the best-optimised character in the strip was probably the spiked chain Half-Ogre and he didn't even live through the comic he was introduced. It wouldn't surprise me if Xykon were the most optimised character in the strip.

So the actual answer to your question is "very probably no one" whether or not you care to hear it.

[oppyu]

I have never before come across a forum in which hypothetical discussions about which 2 characters would win in a fight has been so consistently responded to with "that will never happen in the plot". Yes... I get that. Everyone gets that. But people can still discuss the fight hypothetically. This is a common thing on the internet as it happens.
Eh, this thread treads a lot of the same ground as the usual 'this event was totally unrealistic! The Giant uses railroad plots!' argument, so people (like me) jump in with the standard, Giant-backed defence against that argument. This forum can be a little... enthusiastic against perceived insults towards our great and wonderful Giant.

As for the primary topic of things that could kill Xykon in a world where this isn't a webcomic... I don't know, an even higher-leveled lich sorcerer? I watch for the plot, not the D&D. (MLP fanbase reference totally intentional).

[Raineh Daze]

I'm going to have to agree on the 'this forum is weird' point. I have never heard of any other place where the counter to 'which character could hypothetically win' is 'none of them, because plot'. Or 'go take it to another subforum'. :smallannoyed:

Just to insure I've got the point of the thread straight:


The character to be defeated is Xykon
Any character in the strip can be picked to defeat Xykon
The question is how they could do so
Characters' capabilities are restricted to what is known
Duel-like conditions (no-one has a situational advantage)
Because it's a question of which character IN THE STRIP could do so, it's not about hypothetical builds.


Based on that, is anyone going to try? 'It would never happen because of plot' is not a valid counterargument; 'the character has all the common sense of a damp sponge' probably is.

Seriously, 'which character in the strip can do it' does not merit 'go to another subforum' as a response. That's rather missing the point. >_>;

[Mage Paradox]

Oh, I'm happy for characters outside the comic to be picked too. I thought that was clear when I mentioned things like Solars, or Tarrasaque's and the like.

[FlawedParadigm]

'none of them, because plot'

"Plot" in this case being "the character in question is very possibly the strongest surviving character in the world and if not for the Snarl itself, very possibly the single largest threat to the world", I think that's a pretty valid argument.

To put the thread in perspective, it's not far off of asking "which college player could have taken Michael Jordan at the peak of his career?" There should not be a long list of even potential candidates.


Based on that, is anyone going to try? 'It would never happen because of plot' is not a valid counterargument; 'the character has all the common sense of a damp sponge' probably is.

See above, regarding the former. As to the latter, that describes basically everyone except Roy, Haley, Durkon, Redcloak, and Tarquin, and two of those people are villains and one's currently working for them.

[Copperdragon]

Duel-like conditions (no-one has a situational advantage)

I liked you tried to bring some framework with this but with the above one you shoot it all down. The only answer now is "no one".

Xykon is the Big Bad of this story, he is so ridiculously powerful that he is not defeatable by any measure. The heroes fight against some sort of Sauron they, by all realistic means, they have no chance to win in a confrontantation.
As much as I like the Class and Level Geekery, as much as I must constitute that, outside of that thread, it's pointless to ask for rules for Xykon because Rich apparently does not really care for the rules. Xykon has 9 level 9 spells? Fine, there you go. Xykon has level 12 spell slots? There, there you go. Everything we saw about Xykon's Power is that it's simply over the top, which makes him the one True Big Bad that is to be overcome by the heroes to Rescue The World.

The heroes will win because they will be able to change the situational circumstances, thus shift the balance in their favour and if you forbid that, there's no character around that could defeat Xykon (who has gotten smarter during the run of the comic).

If I had to claim one character, it would pick Redcloak. But only because he would shift the situation in his favour before the confrontation.

[FlawedParadigm]

Oh, I'm happy for characters outside the comic to be picked too. I thought that was clear when I mentioned things like Solars, or Tarrasaque's and the like.

35 Tarrasques wouldn't do a single point of damage to Xykon unless he wanted them to. Overland Flight.

[Raineh Daze]

Then pick those not surviving.

That is not, however, the thing I meant by 'plot'. 'Plot', in this case, is defined as saying that because it wouldn't make for good story, it is therefore impossible to consider.

Villainy or not does not impact whether they could beat Xykon (Evil is not one big happy family, remember?)

I'm of the opinion that pretty much the only person who could beat Xykon is only going to reappear if people visit the right side of the LG afterlife (Soon), I'm just frustrated by the 'because it won't happen, it can't happen' mentality. :smallannoyed:

[Mage Paradox]

The hyperbolic comments here are just getting silly. The idea nothing, nothing at all, could defeat Xykon is pretty silly. And invoking "the plot won't allow it" is even sillier. We already covered how, based on his feats and demonstrated abilities, Xykon can't even beat the Ancient Black Dragon we saw. Imagine then how Xykon would fare against an Epic Gold Dragon, or a high end Solar, or an Epic Necromancer like Haera. Not well.

Xykon has already had several defeats. He's lost to a Silver Dragon, to Soon's ghost, and to Roy. His big wins are also heavily qualified. Many characters look like they could clearly beat him, and it's a shame people are not interested in discussing which ones would be able to more.

[FlawedParadigm]

The hyperbolic comments here are just getting silly. The idea nothing, nothing at all, could defeat Xykon is pretty silly. And invoking "the plot won't allow it" is even sillier. We already covered how, based on his feats and demonstrated abilities, Xykon can't even beat the Ancient Black Dragon we saw. Imagine then how Xykon would fare against an Epic Gold Dragon, or a high end Solar, or an Epic Necromancer like Haera. Not well.

Xykon has already had several defeats. He's lost to a Silver Dragon, to Soon's ghost, and to Roy. His big wins are also heavily qualified. Many characters look like they could clearly beat him, and it's a shame people are not interested in discussing which ones would be able to more.

Speaking of hyperbolic comments, your rules for this are getting increasingly inane and well past the point of double standards.

1) The ABD would never have stood a moment's chance against Xykon. Xykon's only worry is the breath attack, and he could easily rip a dragon a new one between recharges.

2) You list three defeats for Xykon; Roy was "because of plot," the exact same rule you're disallowing others to use, and frankly so were both the other two. The Silver Dragon was to set up the Shelby joke, and Soon was to present a credible threat to Xykon because there hadn't been one. Did you pay close attention to how the actual solo fight between Roy and Xykon went?

3) Your criteria is ridiculous in the first place, because epic liches are not the kind of threats that are soloed, except by 30+ CR Epic creatures. If you think elsewise, you don't know liches very well.

4) All of this is ignoring actually destroying his phylactery, unless we're just talking about "who could temporarily inconvenience Xykon with a fight?"

Next thread: Who could one-shot Superman while sleeping?

[Mage Paradox]

Speaking of hyperbolic comments, your rules for this are getting increasingly inane and well past the point of double standards.

1) The ABD would never have stood a moment's chance against Xykon. Xykon's only worry is the breath attack, and he could easily rip a dragon a new one between recharges.


{Scrubbed}

[Grim Portent]

The hyperbolic comments here are just getting silly. The idea nothing, nothing at all, could defeat Xykon is pretty silly. And invoking "the plot won't allow it" is even sillier. We already covered how, based on his feats and demonstrated abilities, Xykon can't even beat the Ancient Black Dragon we saw. Imagine then how Xykon would fare against an Epic Gold Dragon, or a high end Solar, or an Epic Necromancer like Haera. Not well.

Xykon has already had several defeats. He's lost to a Silver Dragon, to Soon's ghost, and to Roy. His big wins are also heavily qualified. Many characters look like they could clearly beat him, and it's a shame people are not interested in discussing which ones would be able to more.

My major issue with the discussion is that you want to ignore character traits and depict the characters fighting with purely optimised choices of action. One of Xykon's strengths is that he can prey on the psychological weaknesses of his enemies when he knows them, he taunts, he gloats and he mocks very effectively, if you ignore that aspect of him he just becomes a poorly optimised Sorcerer with a template.

I've seen Dorukan used as an example of a fight Xykon should have lost in, but he didn't, he won, and he didn't win because of plot, he didn't win because of Dorukan's bad choices, he won because he was able to goad Dorukan into making those bad choices.

He was lucky to survive Soon, but Soon was fortunate enough to be dead and incorporeal when they fought, I doubt a living Soon would have managed to do half as well against him.

His mechanical power isn't all that great, he can one shot almost anything in the comic with a decent spell, he can almost certainly kill everything in the comic given time, but he doesn't win because he casts those flashy spells he favours. He wins because he knows how to push his enemies buttons. He's meant to have a high charisma score, much like Roy can fight with his brains, Xykon can fight with his voice.

In a world of people optimised as badly or worse than him, he can't be stopped, if he were to fight someone competent he'd hit the ground faster than Roy falling off a zombie dragon.

EDIT: One thing I think has the potential to beat Xykon in comic, the IFCC, one did display the ability to survive being the target of Tiamat's ire for an unspecified, though likely short, period of time and I would expect Tiamat to be stronger than Xykon in most ways.

[Copperdragon]

As for Redcloak, I think he'd have a good chance with:

* Various Buffs, including death ward.

* Get a gate and planar allies as distraction and chip away HPs from Xykon
* Let the horde attack Xykon, surprise round.
* Cast Implosion as Save or Die attempt (should work on undead bodies).
* Xykon's surprise round ends, he's going to fight the summoned creatures or attempt to Energy Drain Redcloak, Redcloak gets a second free round for Fort-Save-Spells.

[Raineh Daze]

4) All of this is ignoring actually destroying his phylactery, unless we're just talking about "who could temporarily inconvenience Xykon with a fight?"

If you take out Xykon in a fight like this, then getting his phylactery should be child's play in comparison.

Soon might have done better alive. It seems unlikely that he had the benefit of any magic items (spirit + being dead for a ridiculous length of time). Now, 50% immunity to almost all Xykon's spells? That is useful, but potentially replicable.

[Xelbiuj]

Ugh 3 pages, hate showing up late to the party.

Mage Paradox, unless you're arguing how a character would act with omniscience, why discount a fight "because they were acting stupid" or "jobbing"? They behavior is an aspect of their character.
If you are arguing from that perspective or an "well if the guy I want rolls on 20s and Xykon rolls only 1s . . ." why make the freaking topic?

And how do you distinguish between jobbing and legitimate? Silver dragon winning = fair but the mook that took him out = bs? lol


Regardless, one word; phylactery. If Xykon wasn't an idiot :smallamused: then no one would ever been able track it down and kill him for good, especially terribads in the oots.

[Mage Paradox]

My major issue with the discussion is that you want to ignore character traits and depict the characters fighting with purely optimised choices of action. One of Xykon's strengths is that he can prey on the psychological weaknesses of his enemies when he knows them, he taunts, he gloats and he mocks very effectively, if you ignore that aspect of him he just becomes a poorly optimised Sorcerer with a template.
1) If we discussed character traits, that is very unlikely to help Xykon, as he tends to show boat and fool around, not taking fights seriously. In many of these fights that would result in him losing horribly (can you imagine how that would play against the ABD with an AMF, Xykon would lose even the chance to flee).
2) How does Xykon psychologically weaken a Dragon he doesn't even know?
Character traits aren't really constructive here, and certainly don't help Xykon. You can give him the intelligence he has, but why would you want him to act in character? He'll just goof around.


I've seen Dorukan used as an example of a fight Xykon should have lost in, but he didn't, he won, and he didn't win because of plot, he didn't win because of Dorukan's bad choices, he won because he was able to goad Dorukan into making those bad choices.
Um, no. He won because of plot. This has been explained already. In no way shape or form is getting 5 attacks for Dorukan's 1 attack "Dorukan making bad decisions", it's just plot forcing Dorukan to stand there and die. Xykon was there for 6 months waiting for Dorukan to come out. It beggars belief that at no point did Dorukan prepare to fight him.

[Grim Portent]

1) If we discussed character traits, that is very unlikely to help Xykon, as he tends to show boat and fool around, not taking fights seriously. In many of these fights that would result in him losing horribly (can you imagine how that would play against the ABD with an AMF, Xykon would lose even the chance to flee).
2) How does Xykon psychologically weaken a Dragon he doesn't even know?
Character traits aren't really constructive here, and certainly don't help Xykon. You can give him the intelligence he has, but why would you want him to act in character? He'll just goof around.

So we're assuming he's not allowed to know anything about the dragon beforehand? Do we assume it possesses a similar amount of knowledge about him as well? If it doesn't know anything about him it may not even cast AMF as it may think it's up against a 1HD skeleton or an undead accountant. If they get to learn anything about each other beforehand then I would bet Xykon's first line would be along the lines of 'Hey, how's the family?' I have a hard time imagining that the ABD would take the time to cast spells of any kind over trying to crush it's foe in pure rage after such a remark.



Um, no. He won because of plot. This has been explained already. In no way shape or form is getting 5 attacks for Dorukan's 1 attack "Dorukan making bad decisions", it's just plot forcing Dorukan to stand there and die. Xykon was there for 6 months waiting for Dorukan to come out. It beggars belief that at no point did Dorukan prepare to fight him.

Correct me if I'm wrong but people did point out earlier in the thread that the Giant said he simply chose not to show Dorukan's actions because they took up space and didn't contribute anything of significance to the story.

I also find it odd that people think that Dorukan would be making the best decisions possible when the soul of his girlfriend was trapped in a gem and he was under severe emotional stress, most people would struggle to think straight under those circumstances.

[Raineh Daze]

So we're assuming he's not allowed to know anything about the dragon beforehand? Do we assume it possesses a similar amount of knowledge about him as well? If it doesn't know anything about him it may not even cast AMF as it may think it's up against a 1HD skeleton or an undead accountant. If they get to learn anything about each other beforehand then I would bet Xykon's first line would be along the lines of 'Hey, how's the family?' I have a hard time imagining that the ABD would take the time to cast spells of any kind over trying to crush it's foe in pure rage after such a remark.

An intelligent undead, wearing a robe and a crown? What sort of accountants have you been looking at? :smallconfused:

[Grim Portent]

An intelligent undead, wearing a robe and a crown? What sort of accountants have you been looking at? :smallconfused:

In a medieval DnD setting a robe can just as easily indicate a monk or pilgrim or scholar.

The crown is harder to explain but is hardly a common affectation amongst spellcasters.

As for the undead part, some caster of neutral or evil alignment decided to raise their accountant/lawyer/librarian etc because they didn't want to learn to do their own accounts/handle lawsuits involving illegally raising the undead/learn the dewey decimal system.

[Mage Paradox]

So we're assuming he's not allowed to know anything about the dragon beforehand? Do we assume it possesses a similar amount of knowledge about him as well? If it doesn't know anything about him it may not even cast AMF as it may think it's up against a 1HD skeleton or an undead accountant. If they get to learn anything about each other beforehand then I would bet Xykon's first line would be along the lines of 'Hey, how's the family?' I have a hard time imagining that the ABD would take the time to cast spells of any kind over trying to crush it's foe in pure rage after such a remark.
We shouldn't grant Xykon special knowledge of unknown foes anymore than we should grant him spells he hasn't shown. The Dragon on the other hand is freaking old, and is going to know a Lich when it sees one. The use of any decent spell against him will be a pretty big hint too. The ABD was perfectly calm against V despite having lost her family, patiently executing a plan over months. I see no reason a random Lich is going to get in her head, especially not one who doesn't know her, and who will be stuck in an AMF and dying within the first 2 rounds. At that point whatever Xykon says is irrelevant.


Correct me if I'm wrong but people did point out earlier in the thread that the Giant said he simply chose not to show Dorukan's actions because they took up space and didn't contribute anything of significance to the story.

I also find it odd that people think that Dorukan would be making the best decisions possible when the soul of his girlfriend was trapped in a gem and he was under severe emotional stress, most people would struggle to think straight under those circumstances.

Dorukan prepares his spells at the start of the day (before he found out about Lirian). Xykon has had him under siege for 6 months. The idea Dorukan has done literally nothing to prepare is pretty preposterous. He's had months to scry, learn about him, prepare spells each day specifically to fight him in the event he Xykon attacks... If Dorukan did stuff off panel, it was clearly useless. The last 5 attacks of Xykon also don't seem to create room for off panel attacks (and if here were, they again were absurdly sucky).

[FlawedParadigm]

Maybe you should read this thread before commenting... :smallconfused:

Maybe you should read the rules for D&D before basing a thread off of them.

[Mage Paradox]

Maybe you should read the rules for D&D before basing a thread off of them.

It's just that what you posted seems like it missed the rather large section covering the ABD... only breath weapons can bother Xykon? After a huge section discussing the Anti-Magic Field, which was used against V to devastating effect? Huh?

[FlawedParadigm]

If you take out Xykon in a fight like this, then getting his phylactery should be child's play in comparison.

Sort of. Yes, in that anything that actually could solo Xykon could probably destroy it, but no in that just because they could solo Xykon doesn't mean they can automatically track down and kill Redcloak faster than he can use Word of Recall quicker than Xykon would regenerate. Keep in mind that barring the no-longer-existing Soon, none of the characters that could even potentially solo Xykon are even aware of his connection with Redcloak, and I'm thinking that if I were a Solar with class levels or something (just to reach for the truly ridiculous) and I just beat down Xykon, my first list of places to check for his phylactery would not include "apparently random goblins" in the top hundred or so places.

[Grim Portent]

We shouldn't grant Xykon special knowledge of unknown foes anymore than we should grant him spells he hasn't shown. The Dragon on the other hand is freaking old, and is going to know a Lich when it sees one. The use of any decent spell against him will be a pretty big hint too. The ABD was perfectly calm against V despite having lost her family, patiently executing a plan over months. I see no reason a random Lich is going to get in her head, especially not one who doesn't know her, and who will be stuck in an AMF and dying within the first 2 rounds. At that point whatever Xykon says is irrelevant.

Is there any evidence that there has ever been another Lich in the world? Xykon may very well be the first. We have no reason to think the ABD would have any idea what a Lich is.


Dorukan prepares his spells at the start of the day (before he found out about Lirian). Xykon has had him under siege for 6 months. The idea Dorukan has done literally nothing to prepare is pretty preposterous. He's had months to scry, learn about him, prepare spells each day specifically to fight him in the event he Xykon attacks... If Dorukan did stuff off panel, it was clearly useless. The last 5 attacks of Xykon also don't seem to create room for off panel attacks (and if here were, they again were absurdly sucky).

If he wasn't attacking Xykon on his own after 6 months of planning it might just be because he hadn't prepared spells to fight Xykon by that point and was still getting ready in some fashion. The revelation of Lirian's soul gem may have made him jump the gun and attack without proper preparations.

[FlawedParadigm]

It's just that what you posted seems like it missed the rather large section covering the ABD... only breath weapons can bother Xykon? After a huge section discussing the Anti-Magic Field, which was used against V to devastating effect? Huh?

You're ignoring (or entirely unaware) that Xykon has Superb Dispelling AND Disjunction, both of which would destroy AMF. V didn't have the former, and you saw the results of Darth V with the latter in comic.

[SoC175]

Xykon hasn't shown he can use more than 1 Epic Spell per day,.Actually by definition the lowest use of epic spells per day is 2.

You need 24 points in Knowledge (arcana),to take the feat and your number of epic spells per day is your ranks in knowledge arcana divided by 10 (rounded down).

[theinsulabot]

Correct me if I'm wrong but people did point out earlier in the thread that the Giant said he simply chose not to show Dorukan's actions because they took up space and didn't contribute anything of significance to the story.


I have heard people say this on a few occasions including out of this thread, never have actually seen the original quote though.

For what its worth however, the point that was made about how MP uses several plot contrived examples of xykon being beaten and then dismissing xykon defeating several others as mere plot was rather good. Demonstrates considerable hypocrisy.

[Raineh Daze]

Remember, Disjunction only potentially destroys it. Can you even cast it inside an AMF, though? :smallconfused:

Less ad hominem arguments would be nice.

[Grim Portent]

I have heard people say this on a few occasions including out of this thread, never have actually seen the original quote though.

Neither have I, I'd like to see it for the sake of academic arguments like this one but I've never seen a link posted to it or a direct quote taken from it.

EDIT: I'm going to leaf through the index thread and see if I can find a source for it linked.

[Mage Paradox]

I've said multiple times now I don't really care about the phylactery, I'm mainly interested in who could beat him in a fight, not elaborate scenarios involving Xykon regenerating months later. This is not something the thread is concerned with. I'm sure many who could kill Xykon would be able to destroy it with little problem (the ABD could just go to the Oracle and find out what to do), but I really don't care either way.


Is there any evidence that there has ever been another Lich in the world?
Other people in the world know what Lich's are. Ergo Xykon was not the first.

And really, how much intelligence does it take to turn on an AMF when confronted with a magic user? Zero. It ought to be pretty basic for an ABD who was shown to be highly intelligent and cautious in combat, and who used it multiple times in battle even against a clearly inferior opponent.

And seriously, Dorukan needs more than 6 months prep to get ready? People are just clutching at straws now.


You're ignoring (or entirely unaware) that Xykon has Superb Dispelling AND Disjunction, both of which would destroy AMF. V didn't have the former, and you saw the results of Darth V with the latter in comic.
1) Xykon has shown no evidence he has Disjunction, and since he only gets 3 level 9 spells (absent difficult circumstances), and we've seen all 3 of them, he almost certainly can't have it.
2) Disjunction stands only a small chance of working. Xykon will run out of uses before he can dismiss 10 AMF's.
3) Superb Dispelling doesn't work on an AMF (this was discussed at length)
4) Even if it did, Xykon has only shown he can cast 1 Epic Spell per day, not the 10 he'd need to dismiss 10 AMF's
5) He'd actually need more than 10 AMF's, because Epic Spells aren't by any means guaranteed to succeed against AMF's
6) Superb Dispelling gives the user backlash damage. 10 uses of S.Dispelling would take up to 600 Hit Points. Charitable estimates of Xykon's hit points peg him at about 200. Not a good plan. Again, this was all covered if you're read the thread before posting.

[137beth]

Roy Greenhilt :smallcool:

Take that, all of you 'the rules and mechanics of D&D are still relevant!' crowd, a mid-level fighter took down an epic level lich sorcerer. You'd think after that people would figure out that 'who would win if all characters were controlled by metagaming PCs' always comes second to 'who would win if it best suited the author's story'.

Don't be silly, Roy can no longer beat Xykon, as he no longer has a broken sword:smallbiggrin:

But yea. Also, I think people (especially people who don't play D&D but want to talk about mechanics anyways) forget that even in an actual D&D campaign, roleplaying exists. And stupid PCs exist. I've seen my players lose fights that they could have won really, really easily, but they didn't. And I've also had players who figured out ways they could have won, but couldn't have done it without breaking character, so they didn't. In the Xykon vs. soul-spliced V people are arguing about, V fighting better would have required breaking character.

[Mage Paradox]

I have heard people say this on a few occasions including out of this thread, never have actually seen the original quote though.

For what its worth however, the point that was made about how MP uses several plot contrived examples of xykon being beaten and then dismissing xykon defeating several others as mere plot was rather good. Demonstrates considerable hypocrisy.

It's not hypocrisy because I concede Roy won because of plot, and don't in any way make the case here that Roy is one of the people who should beat Xykon. It was merely cited to show that Xykon is not invincible as people posit. There's nothing really unbelievable about an Ancient Silver Dragon being able to take Xykon though (right after dismissing several elementals). If anything Shelby's critical hit killing it was far more plot forced.

[FlawedParadigm]

Remember, Disjunction only potentially destroys it. Can you even cast it inside an AMF, though? :smallconfused:

Less ad hominem arguments would be nice.

Threads based on rules that actually even pretended to adhere even mildly to those same rules would be nice too, but we can't have everything.

Unless Xykon is grappled he can easily just walk outside the AMF's range before using his spell for the turn.

If the next question is "what if Xykon is already grappled?", then we're working on "Xykon is taken entirely by surprise by a dragon too large to fit in any of the places he's been for most of the comic, has time and reason to put up an AMF, and also succeeds in a grapple check before Xykon does anything at all" where "reason to put up an AMF" includes the fact that Xykon looks like any other skeletal undead enough that Redcloak needing to put coloured amulets on decoys to tell them apart was a plot point.

In other words, the argument for ABD (which is pointless anyhow, in that ABD is one of the most thoroughly annihilated characters in the comic to date) requires it to be a Solid Snake/Batman hybrid, based pretty much entirely on its ability to ambush V, who was borderline insane and suffering weeks of trance-deprivation. Humpty Dumpty would have had a fairly good shot of pulling that one off.

TL;DR: Non-epic entries for this discussion are entirely irrelevant unless we assume Xykon spontaneously becomes Rainman.

[Grim Portent]

Other people in the world know what Lich's are. Ergo Xykon was not the first.

I can't think of anyone who knew about what being a Lich entailed other than Eugene, and he only learned much about it when he heard Redcloak and Xykon speaking to each other after the Order beat Xykon in the Dungeon of Dorukan.




And seriously, Dorukan needs more than 6 months prep to get ready? People are just clutching at straws now.

You expect an elderly man to get ready for a fight to the death quickly?

[Mage Paradox]

I can't think of anyone who knew about what being a Lich entailed other than Eugene, and he only learned much about it when he heard Redcloak and Xykon speaking to each other after the Order beat Xykon in the Dungeon of Dorukan.
Jephton knew. Soon knew. Roy's party seemed to know about Lich's. Other people have demonstrated knowledge of what a Lich is. Sure, that knowledge isn't perfect, but it's not like the Dragon needs perfect knowledge. All the Dragon really needs to know is "this thing casts spells- AMF time".



You expect an elderly man to get ready for a fight to the death quickly?

6 months does seem excessive :smallamused:

Flawed Paradigm you've been wrong several times in a row now, it's a little much to hear you claim I'm ignoring the rules (when only 2 posts ago you said the only thing that would bother Xykon would be her acid breath, and 1 post ago you claimed Xykon had disjunction, and that Superb Dispelling would stop the AMF). Of course the Dragon is going to grapple Xykon, she'd be a moron not to. There's no point to casting an AMF and just standing there doing nothing. It defeats the purpose of casting it.

[Grim Portent]

I can't find a source for the comments the giant supposedly made regarding Dorukan making actions off screen during his battle with Xykon, best treat it as dubious if not fabricated for the purposes of argument for now.

[SoC175]

A level 1 Kobold under the right circumstances. Context is all that matters in "who could kill whom". Context is items, preparation, environment, etc.

Let's take a Level 9000 Caster. He walks into a stone chamber and the level 1 mook opens the floodgates. If the floodgates are big enough common water (and not lava, acid, whatever) will be enough to drown the Mega Caster. After his surprise round, that'd have been it. Except that even unprepared you do not drown in a single round. And then the caster is gone, since with level 9000 he has so many high spellslots (because these 3,000 feats need to be spend and improved spell capacity is just as good as anything else. Say hello to level 1,000 spell slots) that he doesn't need to cast any spell that is not improved by every metamagic feat in existance just because he needed to somehow fill his level spell slots with something.

Causing a rockslide or slitting his throat while he sleeps (rules: coup de grace) would be other options that come to mind.Both would also be unable to kill a level 9000 character with his +4490 save bonus just from being epic.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[FlawedParadigm]

I've said multiple times now I don't really care about the phylactery, I'm mainly interested in who could beat him in a fight, not elaborate scenarios involving Xykon regenerating months later.

Days later, actually. Again, read the rules.


This is not something the thread is concerned with. I'm sure many who could kill Xykon would be able to destroy it with little problem (the ABD could just go to the Oracle and find out what to do), but I really don't care either way.

Ignoring the travel time involved to get to the Oracle, the Oracle's willingness or ability to help, the number of anti-detection spells on it, the travel time to get to Redcloak, and the ability to kill Redcloak before he can get away...yes.

An equally valid argument would be that a blind, deaf badger could slay a Titan.


And really, how much intelligence does it take to turn on an AMF when confronted with a magic user? Zero. It ought to be pretty basic for an ABD who was shown to be highly intelligent and cautious in combat, and who used it multiple times in battle even against a clearly inferior opponent.

Except for the fact that until proven otherwise, there's no reason to assume a skeleton is a spellcaster. If nothing else, there's far more types of non-spellcasting skeletons than spellcasting ones.


People are just clutching at straws now.

Well, that is the premise of the thread, so...


1) Xykon has shown no evidence he has Disjunction, and since he only gets 3 level 9 spells (absent difficult circumstances), and we've seen all 3 of them, he almost certainly can't have it.

Okay, you've got me on this one. I forgot he had Soul Bind over Disjunction. He could still access it from an item, but I'm not going to argue things we don't know. Speaking of...


2) Disjunction stands only a small chance of working. Xykon will run out of uses before he can dismiss 10 AMF's.

Where in dog's name are you getting ten from?


3) Superb Dispelling doesn't work on an AMF (this was discussed at length)

"At length" was you saying it didn't work because you said so. According to the rules for Epic spells, it can. The short version is Epic > non-Epic. Again, read the rules.


4) Even if it did, Xykon has only shown he can cast 1 Epic Spell per day, not the 10 he'd need to dismiss 10 AMF's

Still no idea where ten is coming from. You're assuming ABD was an even higher level caster than Xykon or has a Charisma score about double what it ought to be. Also, as has been said in the thread, there's no possible way Xykon could have less than two epics per day.


5) He'd actually need more than 10 AMF's, because Epic Spells aren't by any means guaranteed to succeed against AMF's

Uhm, yes, actually, they pretty much are, especially considering Xykon is a much higher level caster to begin with. Again, read the rules.


6) Superb Dispelling gives the user backlash damage. 10 uses of S.Dispelling would take up to 600 Hit Points. Charitable estimates of Xykon's hit points peg him at about 200. Not a good plan. Again, this was all covered if you're read the thread before posting.

You're still pulling this ten out of nowhere and furthermore ignoring that Xykon would be perfectly capable of using Quickened spells in the same turn as dispelling this mega-chain of AMFs you seem to think ABD is capable of despite being torn into little bits of pieces, reanimated, and disintegrated, and ignoring the fact that there's no proof or reason to believe ABD even knew what Xykon was or that Xykon existed at all or...

You know what? This is just ridiculous. You clearly have next to no rules knowledge and are just pulling things out of the air because you started your Batman vs. Doctor Doom thread and by golly Doctor Doom is going to be laying around tied up to train tracks when Batman gets there and that's just how it's going to be.

[Mage Paradox]

Some ways V could beat Xykon once s/he gets to level 17 (from another thread I was posting on):


Examples:
-take a level (or two) of Archmage, get the high arcana of "arcane reach", then use Imprisonment on Xykon from 30+ feet away. That's basically it for Xykon for the forseeable future.
- take a level (or two) of Archmage, get the high arcana of Master of Elements, then lead with quickened spell (perhaps quickened cone of sonic/acid) followed up by Sonic/Acid Meteor Swarm for up to 282 damage.
- Empowered/maximized disintegrate plus a quickened spell (say quickened cone of sonic/acid) would also leave Xykon with a decent chance of being snuffed, even without considering critical hits. Damage is up to potentially 396. Heck, even a single maximised disintegrate (a mere level 9 spell) deals 204 damage, which is about all Xykon has, even with a charitable interpretation, so a quickened spell should finish him off easy if dumped on top.
- Quickened Dimensional Anchor followed up by Forecage (technically V could just do this now) so the team can kill Xykon's minions first, then focus on dealing with him.
- As Archmage with mastery of elements, use Quickened dimensional anchor, Timestop, and then use the (up to) 5 rounds of time to put up a prismatic wall (or walls) to stop escape, use 1 or more empowered delayed blast (sonic)fireballs. Since I'd assume V is already buffed in the fight, chuck up Evan's forced tentacles of intrusion too to stop Xykon advancing on you in the Pryamid/dungeon, then have at Xykon again next turn. He has nowhere to go, and won't last long (especially if the rest of the team is there). This assumes the Pyramid is warded from teleporting to some degree of course.

Those are just some of the ways a level 17 V can cause Xykon all sorts of problems, unaided. Let alone with help (and using disjunction to mess with his items). Heck, Durkon in an anti-magic field at close range could cause Xykon all sorts of trouble. V could set up Xykon with the quickened dimensional anchor and forcecage, then once they've taken care of the others (or separated them from Redcloak, assuming he was there in the first place), Durkon and the others just surround the point Xykon is, and Durkon turns on his anti-magic field. The team would then pound Xykon to dust. This is assuming the team has Durkon (though V can do the same thing for them). All this with V's not having 2 of the best schools available (with Gate V would wreak havoc on Xykon at level 17).

I'd assume an Epic Gold/Red Dragon would be tough for Xykon to survive too.

[FlawedParadigm]

I can't find a source for the comments the giant supposedly made regarding Dorukan making actions off screen during his battle with Xykon, best treat it as dubious if not fabricated for the purposes of argument for now.

Did you check the Index of the Giant's comments thread? 'Cause it's been in there for over a year now.

[JSSheridan]

The Giant and his trusty Pink Pearl eraser.

[SoC175]

"At length" was you saying it didn't work because you said so. According to the rules for Epic spells, it can. The short version is Epic > non-Epic. Again, read the rules. She is right here. While an epic spell could be created to dispell an AMF, Superb Dispelling wasn't.

SD does exactly what it says it does: The same as Greater Dispell Magic just with a higher bonus to the check and backslash damage.

If SD should do other things beyond GDM the spell would have to be build for that and have a different DC.

GDM does more than just being Dispell Magic with a higher check because it specifically says so. SD however says it works exactly like GDM save for damage and higher bonus allowed

[Grim Portent]

Jephton knew. Soon knew. Roy's party seemed to know about Lich's. Other people have demonstrated knowledge of what a Lich is. Sure, that knowledge isn't perfect, but it's not like the Dragon needs perfect knowledge. All the Dragon really needs to know is "this thing casts spells- AMF time".

It would also need a reason to think the Lich's magic could hurt it in the first place. It would be rather strange if it entered every fight with someone who might possibly use magic without prior reason to suspect it's at risk.


6 months does seem excessive :smallamused:

For an obsessive planner with an INT score over 20? I'm surprised he was able to remember to go to the bathroom between planning contingencies and contingencies for those contingencies. He may well have never thought about his defences properly before then.

It also occurs to me that there are parallels between Dorukans fight against X and Darth Vs fight against him. Both leapt blindly into the fray in a state of emotional imbalance, acted impulsively and paid the price, V just got charged a lower toll than D did.

[Grim Portent]

Did you check the Index of the Giant's comments thread? 'Cause it's been in there for over a year now.

I did check there, couldn't find it. I'll take another look I suppose.

[Kish]

As for Redcloak, I think he'd have a good chance with:

* Various Buffs, including death ward.

* Get a gate and planar allies as distraction and chip away HPs from Xykon
* Let the horde attack Xykon, surprise round.
* Cast Implosion as Save or Die attempt (should work on undead bodies).

Implosion is the poster-spell for something described by the undead immunity to spells that allow a Fortitude save and can't target objects.

Redcloak wouldn't need to cast Death Ward--he has the ring he stole from Tsukiko--but, you haven't named any spells he could cast that would actually hurt Xykon, while Xykon could Meteor Swarm away any enemies Redcloak could summon and, if Redcloak survived the Meteor Swarms and his buffs presented an actual problem to Xykon, Superb Dispelling Redcloak.

[Mage Paradox]

Except for the fact that until proven otherwise, there's no reason to assume a skeleton is a spellcaster. If nothing else, there's far more types of non-spellcasting skeletons than spellcasting ones.
The fact that the skeleton uses spells seems like good evidence for the skeleton using spells. Even another type of undead skeleton with supernatural abilities is something you'll negate with an AMF... which again makes it a good idea to use one. I certainly trust the Dragon to get serious before Xykon does, given his past record on these matters.



Where in dog's name are you getting ten from?

Read the thread. This question was answered already, just like all the other questions you have.

And yes, you're wrong about Superb Dispelling. Both what it can do, and how useful it is. The claim "Epic always trumps non-Epic" isn't remotely true:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm

A lucky nonepic spellcaster casting greater dispel magic might be able to dispel an epic spell. The game mechanics do not change, and epic spells do not occupy any privileged position allowing them to resist being dispelled other than their presumably high caster level.



Uhm, yes, actually, they pretty much are, especially considering Xykon is a much higher level caster to begin with. Again, read the rules.
For someone who has gotten many of the rules wrong, this continual claim I should "read the rules" is a bit comical. It is not guaranteed to work:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm
All it needs to do is fail once or twice and that's 2 extra Epic Spell slots Xykon needs (and two more lots of 10d6 damage he eats). All this is irrelevant though since 10 uses of Superb Dispelling would kill Xykon.


You're still pulling this ten out of nowhere and furthermore ignoring that Xykon would be perfectly capable of using Quickened spells in the same turn as dispelling this mega-chain of AMFs you seem to think ABD is capable of despite being torn into little bits of pieces, reanimated, and disintegrated, and ignoring the fact that there's no proof or reason to believe ABD even knew what Xykon was or that Xykon existed at all or...
Xykon has not shown the ability to use quickened spells, so he doesn't get granted that ability.

[Mage Paradox]

It would also need a reason to think the Lich's magic could hurt it in the first place. It would be rather strange if it entered every fight with someone who might possibly use magic without prior reason to suspect it's at risk.



For an obsessive planner with an INT score over 20? I'm surprised he was able to remember to go to the bathroom between planning contingencies and contingencies for those contingencies. He may well have never thought about his defences properly before then.

It also occurs to me that there are parallels between Dorukans fight against X and Darth Vs fight against him. Both leapt blindly into the fray in a state of emotional imbalance, acted impulsively and paid the price, V just got charged a lower toll than D did.

You're being silly with this now.

[Grim Portent]

You're being silly with this now.

Because I assign them human emotion?

EDIT: Humans obsess over things, Dorukan may have spent 6 months planning and thought it was only 6 weeks, he may have thought he had no need to plan quickly, he may have been frightened, he could have had any of hundreds of emotional reasons to delay his final preparations.

[Mage Paradox]

Because I assign them human emotion?

EDIT: Humans obsess over things, Dorukan may have spent 6 months planning and thought it was only 6 weeks, he may have thought he had no need to plan quickly, he may have been frightened, he could have had any of hundreds of emotional reasons to delay his final preparations.

Making a battle hardened Wizard who was able to attain Epic status into a senile old man (despite showing no signs of it)? Yeh, I'd say you're being silly. The guy had 6 months to prep. Saying he needed more time was and is silly.

Saying the Dragon will act imprudently is even sillier, because if Xykon and the Dragon are acting in character, it's pretty clear which of them is more imprudent, and takes longer to get serious. Hint- it's not the Dragon. It's fairer to Xykon if they both go all out from the start to be frank, which is what my scenario asks.

[137beth]

1) Xykon has shown no evidence he has Disjunction, and since he only gets 3 level 9 spells (absent difficult circumstances), and we've seen all 3 of them, he almost certainly can't have it.
Wands. They're basic preparation. Are we assuming Xykon is making really really stupid prep? Then we should probably assume that for everyone else.

Also, unless you want to let everyone else make some crazy assumptions too, you can't assume that Xykon doesn't have any spells which he hasn't been proven not to have. Just like you can't assume he does have them, either. We are 100% certain that Xykon has spells which we haven't seen him use, we just don't know what they are. You seem to have this idea that if we haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. Why hello, Circle Chief.
Also, you may be interested in claiming your prize for proving that no nontrivial zero of the Reimann Zeta function can have a real part other than 1/2: you haven't seen a counterexample, so clearly, none can exist, right? :smallsigh:

[Mage Paradox]

Wands. They're basic preparation. Are we assuming Xykon is making really really stupid prep? Then we should probably assume that for everyone else.
We're not giving either side prep in this thread. That's the fairest thing to do.

[Grim Portent]

Making a battle hardened Wizard who was able to attain Epic status into a senile old man (despite showing no signs of it)? Yeh, I'd say you're being silly. The guy had 6 months to prep. Saying he needed more time was and is silly.

So you're saying that you prefer the idea that Dorukan failed due to plot than the idea of him making a mistake due to being human?


Saying the Dragon will act imprudently is even sillier, because if Xykon and the Dragon are acting in character, it's pretty clear which of them is more imprudent, and takes longer to get serious. Hint- it's not the Dragon. It's fairer to Xykon if they both go all out from the start to be frank, which is what my scenario asks.

The dragon only acted with caution in it's first battle against V, when it attacked V's family it showed no sign of caution or restraint. It didn't even show much caution when V arrived to battle it for a second time, the only move that it made with even a shred of wariness was it's attempt to cast AMF again. It would seem reasonable to me that it would act with similar lack of prudence in a battle against a Lich of indeterminate power.

[Mage Paradox]

So you're saying that you prefer the idea that Dorukan failed due to plot than the idea of him making a mistake due to being human?
Either would be unsatisfactory given the presentation. My preference is irrelevant though. What is relevant is that we should not assume from that fight that Xykon is necessarily more powerful than Dorukan, so much as the plot forced Dorukan to lose (including standing around helplessly while Xykon hit him with 5 spells for every 1 of his).


The dragon only acted with caution in it's first battle against V, when it attacked V's family it showed no sign of caution or restraint. It didn't even show much caution when V arrived to battle it for a second time, the only move that it made with even a shred of wariness was it's attempt to cast AMF again. It would seem reasonable to me that it would act with similar lack of prudence in a battle against a Lich of indeterminate power.

The dragon has researched V's family and knew they were no threat. And as soon as V ported in unexpectedly the Dragon got serious, took the cautious approach, and turned on the AMF. Hardly reckless. Again, this is silly because Xykon acting in character is far dumber and more reckless than the ABD has been. He's much better off if we assume he'll go all out (as will the Dragon).

[Nymrod]

She is right here. While an epic spell could be created to dispell an AMF, Superb Dispelling wasn't.

SD does exactly what it says it does: The same as Greater Dispell Magic just with a higher bonus to the check and backslash damage.

If SD should do other things beyond GDM the spell would have to be build for that and have a different DC.

GDM does more than just being Dispell Magic with a higher check because it specifically says so. SD however says it works exactly like GDM save for damage and higher bonus allowed

Actually there is something that it does do beyond the dispel magic. It penetrates the antimagic zone on a succesful caster check because it is an epic spell; this is a property of all epic spells. As it penetrates the shell it can dispel it; the reason normal dispels don't work and you need a disjunction is that they cannot penetrate antimagic zones.

Btw I have to agree with Mage Paradox on Dorukan. He said he was constantly scrying Xykon and had been trying to ascertain the location of Lirian for months. When he attacked him he was angry but it was cold anger. It is inexcusable that an epic wizard did not do his prep. A simple negative energy protection spell would have rendered Xykon useless.

Btw Rich also has forgotten that Xykon said he has a ring that offers Positive Energy protection back in SoD; this would make him immune to heals and disruption effects.

[JSSheridan]

So, what's the point?

The OP asked the question, answered his own question, and seems to be on a quest to get everyone to validate his opinion.

[rgrekejin]

Saying that the Ancient Black Dragon must have 10 Antimagic Fields at their disposal is a bit silly. Ancient Black Dragons, under normal circumstances, can't cast the spell at all, which means this one is abnormal, and modified in some way. You're assuming that the way it has been modified is by adding sorcerer levels to it which stack with the ones it gets for being a dragon. But there's no reason to assume that's true. All we know is that the dragon claims to have a "greater passion for the arcane arts" than others of its kind, and that it can cast some spells that it normally wouldn't be able to. For all we know, it simply has a homebrewed "greater dragon spellcaster" template that allows it to cast a few spells of a higher level than it would normally be able, like Antimagic Field 2/day and Finger of Death 1/day. Or some weird homebrewed feat. All we know is that this ABD has been modified from a normal one in some way. We don't know how it's been modified, so we can't make extrapolations as if we do.

Secondly, since it's pretty clear that the comic has been largely ignoring the Epic rules up until this point (I mean, Familicide, seriously?), it's kind of weird that we're assuming religious adherence to them now. And weird that we're assuming that Xykon only has the abilities he's been shown to have, and no others, especially since we know that Xykon has some abilities that we don't know about yet. Xykon having "Hold Monster" is totally within the realm of the possible, as is his having some sort of Epic damage-dealing spell that would work in an Antimagic Field, or, for that matter, that Superb Dispelling kills an AMF in OOTS-verse, since AMF clearly doesn't work as written (I mean, it did affect Forcecage, after all).

The point is, we don't have character sheets for these two, and it is highly unlikely that we ever will. So we don't really know how they'd stack up against each other. We can make assertions based on the assumptions we've made about them, but since all of our assumptions are essentially arbitrary, they can be arbitrarily accepted or denied by anyone who cares to argue with them.

In short - we don't know enough to say who would win in a fight between Xykon and the ABD, and we probably never will. If I had to bet, though, I would put my money on Xykon. In a heartbeat.

[SoC175]

You're assuming that the way it has been modified is by adding sorcerer levels to it which stack with the ones it gets for being a dragon. Well, that's how adding class levels to a monster that is already treated as possessing levels in that class works. Thus it's the most sensible assumption

[balladfen]

Actually there is something that it does do beyond the dispel magic. It penetrates the antimagic zone on a succesful caster check because it is an epic spell; this is a property of all epic spells. As it penetrates the shell it can dispel it; the reason normal dispels don't work and you need a disjunction is that they cannot penetrate antimagic zones.
To clarify and confirm: when an epic spell is cast in an antimagic field, a dispel check is made (1d20+20) vs. a DC of 11+caster level (so at least 36 if Xykon is at the minimum level that could possibly have epic spells and cast maximized energy drain). If that check succeeds (meaning in this case if it rolls above 16) the spell fails.

That's a 20% chance of an AM field stopping Xykon from casting epic spells, assuming he's only level 25. If he can make epic magical items, which it has been implied he can (sort of, kind of, not worth arguing with the evidence we have), he has to be level 26, which makes it a 15% chance that the AMF stops him casting epic spells.

Whether Superb Dispelling could destroy the antimagic field totally depends on DM's interpretation of the rules, so all that matters there is Rich's opinion. Unfortunately, Rich has better things to do with his time than read every post on this forum and respond to it, so we'll probably never know his ruling.

I find it really funny that if Xykon actually existed, owned a computer, and read this discussion, he'd laugh his pelvis off at the idea that it mattered what a dead, beaten dragon could have done. He'd say "She played wrong, so she lost, so she died. There's no 'aw, that's wrong!' It's what happened. I, on the other hand, am winning the hell out of this game. Recognize, bitches."

[Belkar<3]

Yes
Soul-Spliced V (WITH Haerta)
MitD
Um.....
The Gods
The Snarl
The Dark One
Maybe
Dorukan
Tarquin

No (This is mainly characters the thread has talked about)
All of OOTS
ABD
All of Scribble (except Dorukan, above)
Pretty Much Everything Else.

[Copperdragon]

Implosion is the poster-spell for something described by the undead immunity to spells that allow a Fortitude save and can't target objects.

The spell is Evocation, to which Undead are not Immune. The target is a corporal creature - something an undead is. The description says you target a corporal creature's body and collapse it into itself.

There's nothing in there indicating it should not work on undead. It's working by destroying the physical body of a creature (and an undead is nothing but its physical body) - in that, Implosion isn't any different than e.g. Disintegrate.

[Kish]

The spell is Evocation, to which Undead are not Immune. The target is a corporal creature - something an undead is. The description says you target a corporal creature's body and collapse it into itself.

There's nothing in there indicating it should not work on undead.

Try the description of the undead type.

[Raineh Daze]

Implosion explicitly affects creatures, so it can't harm objects.

Undead are immune to anything that has a fortitude save but can't harm objects.

That Implosion doesn't work on them is incredibly stupid, but still true.

[Copperdragon]

That Implosion doesn't work on them is incredibly stupid, but still true.

"When reading rules, use your brain". If it's obviously silly, don't follow it.

Fortitude saves mean two things:
A) How well does your body resist some strain that is put on it? (For example damage of all sorts).
B) How well do you do excercises? (this includes attacks on your lifeforce, running, diving etc)

If you are undead, you are obviously immune to the second, while you are still affected by the first.
What the rule about undead ("unaffected unless it affects objects") tries to implement is a sane rule to make a difference between the two. It mostly works, but it does not give you the permission to think yourself what the spell "means" (as DM, you have to describe it appropiatly).

Yes, I know many people play RAW because, uh, it's RAW, but I think that rules without the or even any meaning make no sense at all.

As implosion works on A) - it attacks the body itself, not your life functions like how well you can run - it should work on undead.
For me, the specific spell description and the meaning of it always trumps general rule of thumbs someplace else in the rules which is there to give DMs and players general guidelines on how to handle stuff.

Just because the rules do not say a specific firespell can cause the house you're in to burn down does not mean it cannot (or even should not!) happen in a specific situation.

I'm aware that if you're belonging to the "RAW because RAW" faction we're not going anywhere (and that is fine as long as we do not meet at the same gaming table).

[Raineh Daze]

It is not a valid point in an argument to say 'I would ignore this particular rule' in support of the effectiveness of the spell. Maybe outside the context of the argument, in a scenario where said rule can be applied, but inside it... does not make sense. :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

If you think of undead as "objectlike creatures" it may make more sense.

[137beth]

Well, that's how adding class levels to a monster that is already treated as possessing levels in that class works. Thus it's the most sensible assumption

There are lots of ways to advance monsters...
or you can just pick the one that makes it harder for Xykon to win.


We're not giving either side prep in this thread. That's the fairest thing to do.
Well yea, except for the prep where the ABD starts off with a surprise round AND knows Xykon is a caster AND went to the oracle to find his phylactery, no prep:smallsigh:
Also, wands at Xykon's level are essentially free, it is a much greater assumption to assume he doesn't have one (even with no preparation whatsoever) that to assume he does.

Also, as pointed out repeatedly, it doesn't matter, because he can still use superb dispelling.

And the dragon is dead.


Yes
Soul-Spliced V (WITH Haerta)
MitD
Um.....
The Gods
The Snarl
The Dark One
Maybe
Dorukan
Tarquin

No (This is mainly characters the thread has talked about)
All of OOTS
ABD
All of Scribble (except Dorukan, above)
Pretty Much Everything Else.
If we are counting Soon as being in ghost-martyr form, then I'd say he could have won (since he almost did...), but other than that all of your list is reasonable.


I find it really funny that if Xykon actually existed, owned a computer, and read this discussion, he'd laugh his pelvis off at the idea that it mattered what a dead, beaten dragon could have done. He'd say "She played wrong, so she lost, so she died. There's no 'aw, that's wrong!' It's what happened. I, on the other hand, am winning the hell out of this game. Recognize, bitches."
If knowing someone's screenname counted for scrying purposes, then I doubt Xykon would wast his time typing a response to the thread. He'd probably just teleport and kill people:smallsmile:

[Copperdragon]

If we are counting Soon as being in ghost-martyr form, then I'd say he could have won (since he almost did...), but other than that all of your list is reasonable.

Soon did win. Had he not been distracted by Miko doing something stupid, Xykon would be no more.

[137beth]

Soon did win. Had he not been distracted by Miko doing something stupid, Xykon would be no more.

Yea, I know, but apparently, in this thread, "winning" is not sufficient evidence for being able to win, or so the OP seems to think.

[Barsoom]

We're talking about characters who are powerful enough to beat Xykon independent of the plot. Plot is never an argument for why someone can't beat someone else, when discussing a hypothetical rumble.Maybe not plot, but personality. Soul-spliced-V, with all his/her arcane power, still acted like an idiot. Because that's what V's personality is. Or at least was, at that point in the story. Now, you could say, "Soul-spliced-V could beat Xykon if she/he stopped to think, and came up with a better strategy, possibly used divinations, and prepared better spells."

Unfortunately, such a person does not exist in the OotS-verse. There is no "soul-spliced-V who takes the time to plan carefully" in the fictional universe created by Mr. Burlew. There is only "soul-spliced-V who leaps into danger recklessly, and relies too much on brute arcane power". And that version of soul-spliced-V lost. And that's the only version there is. When discussing characters, their personality, their alignment, their moral outlook are just as important as class features.

In other news, there is no "Dorukan who takes the time to protect himself from Energy Drain before facing Xykon" in OotS. There is only "Dorukan who got angry at what Xykon was doing to the love of his life and lost his sense of danger.". Once again, that Dorukan was defeated...

[Raineh Daze]

'Dorukan thinking rationally' is a thing that exists, though (unlike rational soul spliced V), so it isn't unthinkable to consider the outcome of such a confrontation if Xykon didn't have that particular psychological advantage.

[Grogmir]

So, what's the point?

The OP asked the question, answered his own question, and seems to be on a quest to get everyone to validate his opinion.

This.

So all i'll say is...

:xykon: Solo me!? Is that a challenge to my rep!? Dude... I'm freakin' scary!

[Barsoom]

'Dorukan thinking rationally' is a thing that exists, though (unlike rational soul spliced V), so it isn't unthinkable to consider the outcome of such a confrontation if Xykon didn't have that particular psychological advantage.You can, if you want, but before you do so, please remember - Xykon had that advantage did not happen by accident or whim. He deliberately captured what's-her-name and flaunted her to Dorukan before facing him. Xykon has a personality too, something beyond his spell slots - and a very cunning one at that.

[King of Nowhere]

We got an ancient silver dragon in extra strips on ncftpb that raped xykon and redcloak and was only defeated by plot contrievance (it's the dragon that eventually got zombified and served as xykon's mount during the battle for azure city). his main advantage was that he had enough magic reistance to counter xykon.

Probably there are some other powerful dragons around who are stronger than xykon.
Dorukan was a fair match. he lost, but could have gone the other way.
Soon was also a challenge, thanks to his template. He ppractically won, but xykon was already wweakened and low on spell slots. We don't know if he'd have done as well had he faced xykon alone.
We don't have enough informations about the mitd or aarindarius.
Haerta, Ganoron and Jepton were probably all at least fair matches to Xykon when they were alive. Soul split V lost because he had the spells, but he lacked the hit points, saves, feats, items, and experience that are associated with those. Anyway, thye are long since dead.

Can't think of anyone else that could be a fair match to xykon one on one.

[Nymrod]

Btw if Serini faced Xykon she'd win cause she'd pickpocket half his gear before he knew she was there. Epic level skills are among the most OP things in the game (check Haley on Glibness!). Heck I fully expect that someone will eventually pickpocket Lirian/Dorukan gem and rez them considering they are the only ones who can get the gates back up!

[Stormlock]

Well, on point of the actual topic, I'd say anyone capable of casting Gate (even by a scroll) is pretty much a lock for a free win against Xykon. Spell is broken, and Xykon isn't going to last 2 rounds against the kinds of things that spell can bring in. Seriously, go look at the D20 SRD and pick out some nice ~30HD epic creatures. Maybe some templates. At the very least Gate should have operated on CR rather than HD. Even if you count Gate as being unfair for a 1v1 (which seems silly) there are a plethora of save or dies that could nix Xykon on a bad save, so casters of that level are still credible threats. How this is even remotely in question is beyond me. People arguing that Xykon has a plot aura that makes spellcasters in a 1 mile radius behave like total morons have no place in this discussion.

So, setting that aside as a foregone conclusion, what kind of non or low level casters could 1v1 Xykon? Probably a lot of demons/devils, (I forgot which have fire resistance) since they have the requisite immunities to his favourite spells. Though the issue here becomes whether they can hurt him either, since Ghostform makes for some pretty compelling defenses along with his equipment and template. And Forcecage is a baller spell to have access to as well. But, for example, the pit fiend or whatever that V petrified on the island would probably be a good match vs Xykon. It's way too big for forceage, and I doubt any of Xykon's blasty spells would put a dent in him.

Non casters and non epic monsters seem pretty much out; given Xykon can just fly/ghostform somewhere inaccessible and prepare/kill them from there. Until you get to epic levels most creatures don't have the innate abilities that can deal with that kind of stuff. Much less a humanoid rogue or fighter or whatever. Maybe some real munchkin'd archers or the like could pull it off with enoguh splatbooks, but that line of thought gets a bit dull imo, you're just heading ever closer to RAW split a ladder for 2 10 ft poles territory.

So lets look at interesting edge cases:

Gorgon: DC19 fortitude save. Not devastating, but not trivial either. Doesn't say anything about objects or not, so I expect it would work vs corporeal undead. Though you could certainly argue otherwise. Also, the 19DC is for the default 7HD Gorgon. A 20 HD Huge gorgon would have a nastier breath weapon no doubt.

Medusa/Basilisk/Etc.: Same deal, lower DC save. Not a real threat.

Were-Megaraptor: Too cool to ever lose a fight.

Golden Protector: A huge one (~15 HD maybe?) would have an easy time grappling Xykon, can cast Death Ward, and is immune to most of his shennanigans. These are what should be getting summoned en masse vs Xykon, not wimpy angels. Assuming you're not going for epic stuff.

12 headed Pyro Hydra Skeleton: Seriously. DnD allows for some scary **** even without epic templates or monsters. Send this in vs your players in a confined space if you're feeling mean. Fire and cold immunity, damage reduction. Loses the fast healing and head regen thing, but 12 bites per round is still scary. Although he could just fly away tbh. Maybe give it some silly template like half dragon instead, that'd be nigh unkillable.

Half dragon Purple Worm: Again; silly. It'll need to be wearing a Hat of Negative Energy Protection though. Or just make it a half dragon zombie purple worm.

Templates are silly though. Lets try another direction, tactics:

Suicide bombing. Mix and match your favourite extra dimensional dohickeys or preferred magical explosives of choice next to Xykon during a surprise round and pray to Banjo something fun happens. As a bonus, even a wimpy rogue or fighter can do this.

Ghost. By RAW these things never stop coming back until they are satisfied or whatever. They'll roll enough 20's eventually. Though winning one out of a thousand fights is arguably not 'soloing' Xykon.

Druid with shambling mound sillyness. Can probably be a significant threat even before access to Gate and the like, provided the druid loads up on mobility oriented spells (something to escape a forcecage for example) and keeps death ward online.

Paladin of many levels. Maybe. If Xykon isn't a total moron though, he can just kite the poor bastard with blasty spells, he can probably outlast the paladin by a huge factor. He only lost to Soon because he had magic flying template of sillyness. And honestly a forecage should have done the trick there anyways.

[rgrekejin]

Well, on point of the actual topic, I'd say anyone capable of casting Gate (even by a scroll) is pretty much a lock for a free win against Xykon.

Except, apparently, Dorukan. :smalltongue:

[Stormlock]

Thor couldn't beat Belkar if he fought as badly as Dorukan did.

[Nymrod]

Well, on point of the actual topic, I'd say anyone capable of casting Gate (even by a scroll) is pretty much a lock for a free win against Xykon. Spell is broken, and Xykon isn't going to last 2 rounds against the kinds of things that spell can bring in. Seriously, go look at the D20 SRD and pick out some nice ~30HD epic creatures. Maybe some templates. At the very least Gate should have operated on CR rather than HD. Even if you count Gate as being unfair for a 1v1 (which seems silly) there are a plethora of save or dies that could nix Xykon on a bad save, so casters of that level are still credible threats. How this is even remotely in question is beyond me. People arguing that Xykon has a plot aura that makes spellcasters in a 1 mile radius behave like total morons have no place in this discussion.

So, setting that aside as a foregone conclusion, what kind of non or low level casters could 1v1 Xykon? Probably a lot of demons/devils, (I forgot which have fire resistance) since they have the requisite immunities to his favourite spells. Though the issue here becomes whether they can hurt him either, since Ghostform makes for some pretty compelling defenses along with his equipment and template. And Forcecage is a baller spell to have access to as well. But, for example, the pit fiend or whatever that V petrified on the island would probably be a good match vs Xykon. It's way too big for forceage, and I doubt any of Xykon's blasty spells would put a dent in him.

Non casters and non epic monsters seem pretty much out; given Xykon can just fly/ghostform somewhere inaccessible and prepare/kill them from there. Until you get to epic levels most creatures don't have the innate abilities that can deal with that kind of stuff. Much less a humanoid rogue or fighter or whatever. Maybe some real munchkin'd archers or the like could pull it off with enoguh splatbooks, but that line of thought gets a bit dull imo, you're just heading ever closer to RAW split a ladder for 2 10 ft poles territory.

So lets look at interesting edge cases:

Gorgon: DC19 fortitude save. Not devastating, but not trivial either. Doesn't say anything about objects or not, so I expect it would work vs corporeal undead. Though you could certainly argue otherwise. Also, the 19DC is for the default 7HD Gorgon. A 20 HD Huge gorgon would have a nastier breath weapon no doubt.

Medusa/Basilisk/Etc.: Same deal, lower DC save. Not a real threat.

Were-Megaraptor: Too cool to ever lose a fight.

Golden Protector: A huge one (~15 HD maybe?) would have an easy time grappling Xykon, can cast Death Ward, and is immune to most of his shennanigans. These are what should be getting summoned en masse vs Xykon, not wimpy angels. Assuming you're not going for epic stuff.

12 headed Pyro Hydra Skeleton: Seriously. DnD allows for some scary **** even without epic templates or monsters. Send this in vs your players in a confined space if you're feeling mean. Fire and cold immunity, damage reduction. Loses the fast healing and head regen thing, but 12 bites per round is still scary. Although he could just fly away tbh. Maybe give it some silly template like half dragon instead, that'd be nigh unkillable.

Half dragon Purple Worm: Again; silly. It'll need to be wearing a Hat of Negative Energy Protection though. Or just make it a half dragon zombie purple worm.

Templates are silly though. Lets try another direction, tactics:

Suicide bombing. Mix and match your favourite extra dimensional dohickeys or preferred magical explosives of choice next to Xykon during a surprise round and pray to Banjo something fun happens. As a bonus, even a wimpy rogue or fighter can do this.

Ghost. By RAW these things never stop coming back until they are satisfied or whatever. They'll roll enough 20's eventually. Though winning one out of a thousand fights is arguably not 'soloing' Xykon.

Druid with shambling mound sillyness. Can probably be a significant threat even before access to Gate and the like, provided the druid loads up on mobility oriented spells (something to escape a forcecage for example) and keeps death ward online.

Paladin of many levels. Maybe. If Xykon isn't a total moron though, he can just kite the poor bastard with blasty spells, he can probably outlast the paladin by a huge factor. He only lost to Soon because he had magic flying template of sillyness. And honestly a forecage should have done the trick there anyways.

Well he let Soon get into melee. That was a no-no! Xykon should have just cast a forcecage on himself and then proceed with whatever force effects he could use against everyone else and use some energy drains on Soon (who seems to be to be a deathless creature so would have to suck on negative energy).
Ofc Soon probably had the saves to ignore a lot of Xykon's casts anyhow. Plus if he had a holy avenger (he is an epic paladin ghost-saint ffs!) he could just have dispelled the forcecage.
I don't think the army of ghosts mattered though, if Soon got in melee Xykon would be toast barring a quickened way to get some distance. Heck I'm surprised Xykon managed to survive that many attacks from Soon in the first place.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Locked for review.