Fighting a Greater Deity

[Pickford]

So, flipping through the srd20 and looking at divine ranks/powers...

Is it possible to reach the ~100 AC necessary to have a greater deity miss?

How would you do it?
edit: As a non-deity, in case that wasn't clear.

[Aegis013]

Some of the stuff from The 100^10 Optimization Challenge (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6590.0) might be what you're looking for.

But look at the Salient Divine abilities. Does the deity in question have Alter Reality? If yes, 100 AC will do nothing to help you.

[Alleran]

Even beating a demigod can be extraordinarily difficult to do.

Beating a greater deity is nigh-impossible. Everything you can do, they can do better, more, and bigger. You use divinations to scry-and-die targets? The god of magic knows the future and can stop you before you've even thought of doing it in the first place. You use a combination of feats and magic items to go first with an absurd Initiative modifier and do hundreds of damage that can't be blocked? The god of war always goes first, period, and does thousands of damage that can't be blocked.

If they do it right, they can sling a divine blast at you from kilometres away, punch straight through your walls of force, prismatic spheres or whatever you're trying to defend yourself with, and smack you with enough damage to take you straight to -10 HP in one shot. Then, when your contingent resurrections trigger (because you were smart enough to create one), they can do it again. Or if you're up against the god of death, then Mass Life or Death insta-gibs you.

All that being said, I know Tippy has a way to beat a greater deity, although it required abuse of Aleaxes and Illithid Savant as well as the Outlands and the god-blooded Vecna template. If it has stats, you can kill it. The only question is how much you're putting onto the cheese platter.

[Eugenides]

If it has stats, you can kill it. The only question is how much you're putting onto the cheese platter.

The thing is that, at a certain point, piling cheese on the platter is just another way of you yourself being a God, no?

Once you get there, things get fun!

[Pickford]

Beating a greater deity is nigh-impossible. Everything you can do, they can do better, more, and bigger.

Right, that's actually why I was looking to bring AC up to the point that even the Greater deity misses, because they can make it impossible for anyone else to cast spells. Hence, a straight up melee is what the fight ultimately would be reduced to.

Edit: So far it depends on class, a monk seems ideal for trying this as they can benefit from both bracers of armor, the innate ac bonus and effectively unlimited wisdom/dex bonuses to ac.

So: (assuming 32-33 dex and wis)
10 + 1 dodge feat + 11 wis mod + 11 dex mod + 4 AC bonus + 8 armor from bracers + 5 deflection from ring of prot + 5 natural armor for 55...

If willing to throw 4 levels into drunken master an additional +2 dodge bonus (AC bonus gain/loss cancel out) to 57, nevermind, if wearing a monks belt both AC bonuses would be gained, so 58. Haste could pump this to 59. Ioun stone for +1 insight bonus to reach 60. (still, if there's a better source of insight AC...)

I'm missing enhancement/competence/inherent/luck bonuses, any sources of those? (perhaps just make a custom magic item?)

[TuggyNE]

Edit: So far it depends on class, a monk seems ideal for trying this as they can benefit from both bracers of armor, the innate ac bonus and effectively unlimited wisdom/dex bonuses to ac.

The only thing a Monk gets, AC-wise, that can't be duplicated for a few thousand gp is +3 untyped bonus. It's hard to compare that to, say, the natural armor/deflection/shield/armor that a decent Abjurant Champion gish build can rack up. (Somewhere around +20 total, I think.)


I'm missing enhancement/competence/inherent/luck bonuses, any sources of those? (perhaps just make a custom magic item?)

I don't think there's any sources of enhancement bonuses directly to AC, only to armor, shield, or natural armor bonuses. Luck bonuses do exist (recitation), but competence and inherent probably do not apply.

[Pickford]

The only thing a Monk gets, AC-wise, that can't be duplicated for a few thousand gp is +3 untyped bonus. It's hard to compare that to, say, the natural armor/deflection/shield/armor that a decent Abjurant Champion gish build can rack up. (Somewhere around +20 total, I think.)

I don't think there's any sources of enhancement bonuses directly to AC, only to armor, shield, or natural armor bonuses. Luck bonuses do exist (recitation), but competence and inherent probably do not apply.

The Wisdom bonus to AC can be duplicated while still getting armor? I figured it would be possible to stack dex/wis enough to outstrip the possible benefit from actual armor...

My concern in relying on spells to boost AC is that a deity can simply prevent any spellcasting in their territory. (i.e. no abjuration spells allowed).

[Spuddles]

A greater deity gets to treat virtually any d20 roll as a natural 20. It doesn't matter what your AC is.

AC doesn't matter much past the level you can afford a Starmantle Cloak and a Ring of Evasion, anyway. At least, for relatively high level, high optimization, AC is irrelevant.

[TuggyNE]

The Wisdom bonus to AC can be duplicated while still getting armor? I figured it would be possible to stack dex/wis enough to outstrip the possible benefit from actual armor...

Actual armor is irrelevant, since you can get a +8 or greater bonus from greater mage armor (boosted, if memory serves, by AbjChamp). Add the Monk's Belt to that, and you get both Wis and Dex to AC. Then use alter self or polymorph or shapechange for natural armor, use deflect for deflection bonus, use shield (boosted by AbjChamp) for shield bonus, and so on.


My concern in relying on spells to boost AC is that a deity can simply prevent any spellcasting in their territory. (i.e. no abjuration spells allowed).

If you can't get the jump on them, you're (even more) vastly likely to lose. And if you do get the jump on them, the 10-minute lag time for changing allowed schools/descriptors suggests this won't matter. I'm not totally sure whether it even applies to pre-cast buffs, and if it doesn't then this is simply irrelevant.

[tyckspoon]

So, flipping through the srd20 and looking at divine ranks/powers...

Is it possible to reach the ~100 AC necessary to have a greater deity miss?

How would you do it?
edit: As a non-deity, in case that wasn't clear.

The easy way? Take a level in the Cancer Mage prestige class (Vile Darkness) and contract the Vile Rigidity disease (same.) Cancer Mage protects you from the negative effects of diseases. Vile Rigidity gives you stacking Natural Armor (and drains your Dex, but you don't care 'cause Cancer Mage.) Lay around your castle for a year. Pick up a nice dish of Festering Anger while you're at it to get your Strength high enough to actually hit and damage the god as well.

Not that it'll make much difference, as the *tricky* part of fighting a god with the Deities & Demigods rules is dealing with their Salient Divines and any spells/spell-like abilities they may have. (And most any Greater God worth the title is going to have nasy SDAs, spells, or both- Gods of basic 'I Hit It With My Stick'-type portfolios that have more managable abilities don't normally rate as Greater.)

[Spuddles]

Always Maximize Roll
Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.


You aren't going to beat a greater deity by worrying about your AC or targeting its saves.

[Pickford]

Actual armor is irrelevant, since you can get a +8 or greater bonus from greater mage armor (boosted, if memory serves, by AbjChamp). Add the Monk's Belt to that, and you get both Wis and Dex to AC. Then use alter self or polymorph or shapechange for natural armor, use deflect for deflection bonus, use shield (boosted by AbjChamp) for shield bonus, and so on.

If you can't get the jump on them, you're (even more) vastly likely to lose. And if you do get the jump on them, the 10-minute lag time for changing allowed schools/descriptors suggests this won't matter. I'm not totally sure whether it even applies to pre-cast buffs, and if it doesn't then this is simply irrelevant.

Hrm...why wouldn't the deity just have it start with no magic (but it's own) working in its realm? I mean...what is the downside? I find that section odd.

Monk's belt doesn't grant AC from wisdom, just the AC bonus (which is static).

Spuddles: Hrm...guess that means investment in luck feats would be more useful.

[Spuddles]

Monk's belt doesn't grant AC from wisdom, just the AC bonus (which is static

You really ought to read the relevant rules. I see a lot of spoon feeding in the near future....

[tyckspoon]

You aren't going to beat a greater deity by worrying about your AC or targeting its saves.

Nah, it still works if you can get your numbers high enough- they get to calculate as if they rolled a 20, they don't get autosuccess as if they rolled a 20 (you roll again to see if they get that.) Just means you have to add 20 to the deity's given attack/save values to find the number you have to beat instead of being able to hope they roll low.


Monk's belt doesn't grant AC from wisdom, just the AC bonus (which is static).

"..works like Monk's ac bonus.."

Monk's AC Bonus:
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

Wisdom is part of the Monk's AC Bonus that the Monk's Belt works like. I don't think you're going to convince anybody of your statement.

[Spuddles]

Nah, it still works if you can get your numbers high enough- they get to calculate as if they rolled a 20, they don't get autosuccess as if they rolled a 20 (you roll again to see if they get that.) Just means you have to add 20 to the deity's given attack/save values to find the number you have to beat instead of being able to hope they roll low.

"Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll."

Is there a better result possible than a natural 20 on a check, save, or attack?

[Pickford]

Nah, it still works if you can get your numbers high enough- they get to calculate as if they rolled a 20, they don't get autosuccess as if they rolled a 20 (you roll again to see if they get that.) Just means you have to add 20 to the deity's given attack/save values to find the number you have to beat instead of being able to hope they roll low.



"..works like Monk's ac bonus.."

Monk's AC Bonus:
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

Wisdom is part of the Monk's AC Bonus that the Monk's Belt works like. I don't think you're going to convince anybody of your statement.

That is referencing the column on table 3-10, AC Bonus. Wisdom bonus is not inclusive of AC bonus, the active portion of the belt providing AC "as a monk of 5 levels higher" applies to that column. Also it only works when unarmored and not carrying a shield so...there's that.

[tyckspoon]

"Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll."

Is there a better result possible than a natural 20 on a check, save, or attack?

Yes. Not having to calculate at all and just succeeding regardless of whatever number you actually had to beat, even if your 20 otherwise wouldn't have been enough. I don't believe deities get that benefit. I conclude this because the text does still tell you to 'calculate the results accordingly', which would not be necessary if Greater Deities enjoyed Natural 20 benefits on their attacks and saves, and because the separate entries for what benefits deities get on their attacks and saves do not have a note indicating that the bonuses for Greater Deities are irrelevant because they always Natural 20 instead.

[Pickford]

Yes. Not having to calculate at all and just succeeding regardless of whatever number you actually had to beat, even if your 20 otherwise wouldn't have been enough. I don't believe deities get that benefit. I conclude this because the text does still tell you to 'calculate the results accordingly', which would not be necessary if Greater Deities enjoyed Natural 20 benefits on their attacks and saves, and because the separate entries for what benefits deities get on their attacks and saves do not have a note indicating that the bonuses for Greater Deities are irrelevant because they always Natural 20 instead.

This would also beg the question of what happens when two greater deities fight. (They just auto-hit?)

[Zero grim]

All the greater deities have alter reality, soooo I guess the fight would go something like this.

Adventurer: "were here to stop your evil ways!" (must defeat god on this turn)

God: "ahhh, now its my turn"
the god then uses alter reality and time stop to give him infinite time to prepare for this fight, he buffs himself with a permanent version of every buff spell in the game that's none epic, this is a good time saver since the god only needs ever do this once, after that he covers his room in every single area control spell he thinks he needs and rests inside the timestop until he's recharged, the timestop ends and the deity you think had +50 to hit now has +ManyManyLots to hit.

As you see your AC never actually matters, since if the god is at all threatened they will just do the above.

[Pickford]

All the greater deities have alter reality, soooo I guess the fight would go something like this.

Adventurer: "were here to stop your evil ways!" (must defeat god on this turn)

God: "ahhh, now its my turn"
the god then uses alter reality and time stop to give him infinite time to prepare for this fight, he buffs himself with a permanent version of every buff spell in the game that's none epic, this is a good time saver since the god only needs ever do this once, after that he covers his room in every single area control spell he thinks he needs and rests inside the timestop until he's recharged, the timestop ends and the deity you think had +50 to hit now has +ManyManyLots to hit.

As you see your AC never actually matters, since if the god is at all threatened they will just do the above.

That would never work, time stop has a range of personal, that means using alter reality on it would impact infinite numbers of subjects, meaning the deity would have to rest for eternity.

I mean, it's one way of making the deity wink out of existence.

[Zero grim]

The deity doesn't need to make timestop permanent,They just need to cast it over and over, since just casting a 9th level spell doesn't actually cause the deity to need rest, its every other buff that needs to be permanent.

But even then, the personal effect only effects the deity, where does this infinite subjects thing come from?, timestop doesn't slow down other people it speeds up the caster, but if you made it permanent yea you'd be stuck until you dispelled it.

[Pickford]

The deity doesn't need to make timestop permanent,They just need to cast it over and over, since just casting a 9th level spell doesn't actually cause the deity to need rest, its every other buff that needs to be permanent.

But even then, the personal effect only effects the deity, where does this infinite subjects thing come from?, timestop doesn't slow down other people it speeds up the caster, but if you made it permanent yea you'd be stuck until you dispelled it.

Right, but making 'any' of those effects permanent requires rest, which means the time stop has to be made permanent as well. In which case auto fail.

[Lapak]

All the greater deities have alter reality, soooo I guess the fight would go something like this.

Adventurer: "were here to stop your evil ways!" (must defeat god on this turn)This is where it breaks down, because you don't get that turn, ever. Greater Deities have Portfolio Sense extending 16-20 weeks into the future, and any attempt to directly harm them would most definitely fall into the category of 'affecting their portfolio.' So - without needing to DO anything, and with no listed method of blocking it because it's not a spell or effect or diviniation but just natural knowledge - they know what you're going to do literally months in advance, very likely before you do, and have all of that time to use their divine abilities to derail you.

So it's more like:

ADVENTURER: *just walking along*
GREATER DEITY: *smite, accounting for all protections and backup plans*
ADVENTURER: *is destroyed*

[Pickford]

This is where it breaks down, because you don't get that turn, ever. Greater Deities have Portfolio Sense extending 16-20 weeks into the future, and any attempt to directly harm them would most definitely fall into the category of 'affecting their portfolio.' So - without needing to DO anything, and with no listed method of blocking it because it's not a spell or effect or diviniation but just natural knowledge - they know what you're going to do literally months in advance, very likely before you do, and have all of that time to use their divine abilities to derail you.

So it's more like:

ADVENTURER: *just walking along*
GREATER DEITY: *smite, accounting for all protections and backup plans*
ADVENTURER: *is destroyed*

That's why you would never intentionally come after a deity to kill them. You go after something they like which doesn't trigger their sense but would force them to intervene personally (thus putting themselves at risk of their own volition)

[Lapak]

That's why you would never intentionally come after a deity to kill them. You go after something they like which doesn't trigger their sense but would force them to intervene personally (thus putting themselves at risk of their own volition)It doesn't matter if you go in with the intention of killing them, their own death is a huge portfolio-affecting event. They therefore know about it and the circumstances that lead to it; unless you can set things up so that the triggering event is completely inevitable even with four months to work on the problem with Divine Abilities they can simply short-circuit the plan.

[Zero grim]

Once again...you don't need to make timestop permanent, you just cast it over and over and over until you have enough time to buff yourself and rest.

But yes Lapak is right the deity has no reason to wait that long, he could just be pre-buffed and wait for you to arrive and then smite you, you could get around this perhaps by shifting in from a timeless plane and attacking, that might just disrupt their sense enough to allow you to talk.

Other options include having a greater ranked deity mask your presence and getting you to attack a rival.

"If it has stats you can kill it" never agreed with that term, as it has been said here, "anything you can do they can do better, they can do anything better then you"

[Clovis]

In 3/3.5 mortals cannot kill a deity without assistance from other deities / cosmic entities. Assistance may include a god-forged weapon designed and magicked to kill gods. No matter how high your AC/STR may be, a greater deity cannot be killed by a mortal. No, not even then.
Gods can only be perma-killed in their own realm. The would-be godslayer would have to get access there; a greater deity can control access to its plane of existence. Alter reality SDA means you lose; all divine planes are divinely morphic in every aspect. Your astrally projected cancer mage will also lose because sundering a mortal's silver cord is a cinch for a greater deity.

Naturally all this is moot owing to rule 0: if the adventure requires the death of a greater deity, then it's the DMs job to provide the necessary tools for the PCs. (Crescent Blade in the hands of one Halisstra Melarn comes to mind, or Godsbane in Cyric's; both forged by gods).

[Cruiser1]

Is it possible to reach the ~100 AC necessary to have a greater deity miss? As a non-deity, in case that wasn't clear.
Some builds like Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365) have triple digit AC. To get 100 AC generally requires being a full caster, so you can take advantage of the best buffs. Of course, as others have said, fighting Deities requires more than just high AC.

Adventurer: "were here to stop your evil ways!" (must defeat god on this turn)
God: "ahhh, now its my turn"
With an appropriately optimized build, the Deity never gets a turn. :smallbiggrin: Considering Priya again, that build has infinite standard actions, so if the build exists at all (i.e. hasn't been smited by the Deities using portfolio sense before it reached level 20) then it uses its infinite actions to kill the Deity that turn. And even if the Deity can't be killed using your +google weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268501), you can kill all the Deity's worshippers in the multiverse that turn, and then see if it's any weaker.

This is where it breaks down, because you don't get that turn, ever. Greater Deities have Portfolio Sense extending 16-20 weeks into the future, and any attempt to directly harm them would most definitely fall into the category of 'affecting their portfolio.'
Even portfolio sense can be overcome with optimization. :smallbiggrin: Aleaxes and the Vecna template have been mentioned as one way. Another way that should work is with the psion save game trick which allows you to undo time an arbitrary amount. Set up a save game point, wait six months, then undo and back up time to the save game point. Immediately turn on infinite standard actions, then kill the Deity before they get a turn to do anything. The first time through the time period, you don't trigger portfolio sense because you never take any action against the Deity in that timeline. When you actually go back in time, in the alternate timeline you are now hostile, but now the Deity can't do anything because you've already activated infinite turns.

[Coidzor]

God: "ahhh, now its my turn"
the god then uses alter reality and time stop to give him infinite time to prepare for this fight, he buffs himself with a permanent version of every buff spell in the game that's none epic, this is a good time saver since the god only needs ever do this once, after that he covers his room in every single area control spell he thinks he needs and rests inside the timestop until he's recharged, the timestop ends and the deity you think had +50 to hit now has +ManyManyLots to hit.

What do you mean he gives himself every buff after combat starts? He already had every buff that it's possible for him to acquire since forever ago. :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

The fight is exactly as hard as the DM wants it to be.

Easy fight? You're battling a glorified Angel with a big name. Have fun.

For Impossible? He has a buddy with the death and knowledge domains, who wills you dead at least 17 weeks before you start plotting (potentially aeons before you start plotting, if he abuses portfolio sense to send information backwards/forwards in time to himself). He also took Arcane Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#arcaneMastery) as an SDA, and has every written spell in the game, and can invent his own absurdly-overpowered spells on a whim to do whatever the hell he wants.


Tippy had a near-foolproof way to kill most published gods on "impossible mode", someone could probably find it. You know a method is awesome when the first step is "become completely and utterly invincible", and involves eating the brain of a different vecna-blooded creature every day for 30 days.

[Carth]

Let's see, wizard5/incantatrix10/Halruaan elder5 is probably a good base.

Persist shapechange, be a chronotyryn for its general utility and 22 natural armor (29 with bite of the werebear, then 28 net factoring in the size penalty), miracle in consumptive field a couple times and various other CL boosting tricks to get a deflection bonus of 25 or so from algid enhancement. A dex mod of 10 shouldn't be hard to achieve. Monk's belt grants wisdom+1 to AC, there's another easy 10 at least. Persisted holy star grants a +6 circumstance bonus. An animated shield is good for +7, and bracers are good for +8. That's over 100, others can pitch in, though I agree this is a pointless exercise thanks to alter reality and portfolio sense.

[Immabozo]

Naturally all this is moot owing to rule 0: if the adventure requires the death of a greater deity, then it's the DMs job to provide the necessary tools for the PCs. (Crescent Blade in the hands of one Halisstra Melarn comes to mind, or Godsbane in Cyric's; both forged by gods).

QFT. I am running a campaign that will end in killing gods and they will have all the home-brew tools to do it. Much of the campaign is gathering and assembling those tools.

As far as getting the AC, it is easy for a wildshaping Druid. At level 22 (we are talking killing gods, not an unreasonable assumption) with the wildshaping necklace, take the form of a Gerivar (MM III pg. 52) 10 + +5 wilding mountain plate AC 17 + +5 wilding tower shield AC 9 + natural armor 45 (28 natural, +5 from permanancied barkskin, +5 from Nature's Warrior PrC feature skin of the crocodile, +7 from Bite of the Werebear SpC), - 2 size + 5 dex (12 dex from natural form, +2 from enhanced wildshape SPC, +6 from belt of magnificence MIC) + 5 ring of deflection + 1 Ioun Stone for an AC of 85.

Depending on how many buffs you want to cast before combat (only 1 short duration spell was listed above, the rest are 24 hour spells or more) you can get that number higher. Plus cleric buffs and haste, that 15 AC shouldn't be a problem.

Since I view killing gods as the game of who is the Kraft Mac and Cheese (Who is the cheesiest?) then a tortoise shell MIC spell instead of Barkskin will upgrade the NA bonus to 9, a cleric DMMing something, aging the character to venerable and adding the buff Sirline's Grace SpC, instead of the ring of deflection, will make it a deflection bonus of (assuming starting of, lets say 15, +6, belt of magnificence, +3 aging, 24 cha for a +7 deflection, all will put the number easily over 100.

This guy also uses Mantle of the icy soul for immunity to cold and add the acid resist modifications wherever he can. Cold and Acid are the only things that get around his regen 8. Acid resistance 60 can very easily be gotten. This is in addition to immunity to sonic, fire, death spells, mind effecting spells, DR 10/magic and adamantine, SR 28, the run action is x6 instead of x4, movement speed of 70, natural grenade-like weapons for 10d6 piercing and 10d6 fire damage in a 10 foot burst reflex DC 31 for half, and a few other goodies (my build also gives all the monster feats, which includes Awesome Blow!

EDIT: Oh yeah, since you are not armored because wilding shifts it all into your form, a Monk's belt might be a good alternative to Belt of Magnificence for (wisdom 18 to start, +5 from levels, +5 from items, wis 28, 10 AC, plus bracers of armor is another 8 to AC, although the enhancement bonus from bracers of armor probably wouldn't stack with the AC from the wilding armor. and then getting the +5 wisdom from one of the sources of increasing stats by 5, an AC of 20 could be achieved from bracers of armor/monks belt

[Slipperychicken]

Why do we care about AC? Greater deities' attacks are always treated as natural 20s, and as such always hit (although armor class would help with the confirmation roll, I suppose).

[dascarletm]

Why do we care about AC? Greater deities' attacks are always treated as natural 20s, and as such always hit (although armor class would help with the confirmation roll, I suppose).

If you can negate half of the crits then you negate 25% of their damage, though the investment to do such, may not be worthwhile.

[Immabozo]

Why do we care about AC? Greater deities' attacks are always treated as natural 20s, and as such always hit (although armor class would help with the confirmation roll, I suppose).

In that case, AC vs crit confirmation is even easier, or just crit immunity.

Adding fortification to armor will afford that!

[Slipperychicken]

Another potential issue: Hope the deity does not have access to the Aura of Chaos martial stance. Since it always maximizes damage rolls, its melee attacks would always deal infinitely-high damage when that stance applies (i.e. when it needs to roll for melee damage). That does mean critical hits wouldn't be a huge issue, though.

Of course, I get the feeling an optimized greater deity may be too much for any mortal to deal with... which feels appropriate for a literal king-of-gods :smalltongue:

[Immabozo]

which feels appropriate for a literal king-of-gods :smalltongue:

truth, which is why I plan on letting my players steal divine levels of the divine entities they kill, through an artifact, before facing the greater deities, they should have some divine ranks under their belts.

[Renen]

But the deity would still know they are coming >_<

[Immabozo]

But the deity would still know they are coming >_<

If you are prepared to fight a deity and have a reasonable chance of winning, all that means is that he can have time to soil his pants. But there are ways around it, like travel to a timeless plane and then plane walk in and surprise the deity. Or having the cover of a rival deity conceal your approach, etc

[angry_bear]

Sigil seems like the best place to prep for this. Pretty much full access to any item in D20, and no deity can sense you, or target you thanks to The Lady of Pain. That at least gets you around Portfolio Sense, and dealing with being smited before you're even remotely close to being ready... I guess going Undead might work around the auto crits and any instant death attacks? Although considering what positive and negative energy does to any Undead that plan could royally backfire...

And not to mention that each Deity presents it's own set of problems. A god of war and destruction is going to fight differently from, say a god of magic and knowledge...

[Slipperychicken]

Just hope the Lady of Pain doesn't get miffed at their god-slaying plans. There is an interpretation that Sigil is a kind of cosmic truce-zone, so letting would-be assassins plot there might not go over well. Remember she mazes people just for mentioning her :smallbiggrin:


truth, which is why I plan on letting my players steal divine levels of the divine entities they kill, through an artifact, before facing the greater deities, they should have some divine ranks under their belts.

Just be prepared for them trying to farm Rank 1 Demigods, although any deicide should be enough to get the higher powers on their tails fast (not only because that artifact is Ultimate Power, the PCs killed the gods' friends and buddies, but also because the PCs are a disturbance to the status quo, and greater deities are like the definition of status quo).

But yeah, this is what I meant about the fight being exactly as hard as the DM wants it to be.

[Spuddles]

The fight is exactly as hard as the DM wants it to be.

Easy fight? You're battling a glorified Angel with a big name. Have fun.

For Impossible? He has a buddy with the death and knowledge domains, who wills you dead at least 17 weeks before you start plotting (potentially aeons before you start plotting, if he abuses portfolio sense to send information backwards/forwards in time to himself). He also took Arcane Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#arcaneMastery) as an SDA, and has every written spell in the game, and can invent his own absurdly-overpowered spells on a whim to do whatever the hell he wants.


Tippy had a near-foolproof way to kill most published gods on "impossible mode", someone could probably find it. You know a method is awesome when the first step is "become completely and utterly invincible", and involves eating the brain of a different vecna-blooded creature every day for 30 days.

The problem with tippy's method that I have seen him use is earing brains of things he has gated. Unfortunately, as soon as you leave your home plane you gain the extra-planar subtype and become a target of every other tippy-wizard out there gating in things with brains.

Zodar wish abuse to acquire pieces to clone might do it of you opt to not use that particular gate interpretation.

One way to plot vs gods is to travel through time as a vecna blooded creature to outside their portfolio sense, then plot inside a null space; ideally a quintessence incapsulate sphere inside a MMM in the far realms. Like plotting against the god emperor of dune in a nullship.

[Immabozo]

Just be prepared for them trying to farm Rank 1 Demigods, although any deicide should be enough to get the higher powers on their tails fast (not only because that artifact is Ultimate Power, the PCs killed the gods' friends and buddies, but also because the PCs are a disturbance to the status quo, and greater deities are like the definition of status quo).

true, thus why I am toying with exact story line and plot elements

[Spuddles]

If you can negate half of the crits then you negate 25% of their damage, though the investment to do such, may not be worthwhile.

That just negates extra damage feom crits, not the auto-hit property of treating every roll as a 20.

[dascarletm]

That just negates extra damage feom crits, not the auto-hit property of treating every roll as a 20.

yep, hence why 25% of their damage is lost not 50% (assuming a x2 multiplier)

[Yogibear41]

DM in our game would never allow a mere mortal to kill a god, much less hurt it... he said you may defeat an avatar of a god but your not going to kill a god... He also laughs at the Ur-Priest prestige class at the fact that they "steal" spells from gods, yeah right he says.

[Pickford]

It doesn't matter if you go in with the intention of killing them, their own death is a huge portfolio-affecting event. They therefore know about it and the circumstances that lead to it; unless you can set things up so that the triggering event is completely inevitable even with four months to work on the problem with Divine Abilities they can simply short-circuit the plan.

Problems:

If the game is assuming a predeterministic universe there's nothing the deity can do to prevent this change from happening, and the deity will fail to prevent its untimely death.

If it is a universe where free will exists, the deity wouldn't sense it because if this is the case, the deity would be 'constantly' under assault from threats to its portfolio, most of which would be phantoms. (i.e. in all possible futures there would be infinite numbers of threats or variations on threats).

The greater deity can only sense up to 20 locations at once. If potential threats to portfolio exceed 20, the deity will be incapable of actively dealing with them before one of the other infinite plots unfolds.

Hence, greater deities still get killed, it's not a question of if, but rather by whom.

[Cirrylius]

But there are ways around it, like travel to a timeless plane and then plane walk in and surprise the deity.
Wouldn't that only work if the deity was in a timeless plane? Say your target is on a plane with normal time flow; you could use a timeless plane to plot to your heart's content, but as long as the power's precognition was unimpeded, they'd still know exactly when the attack was coming in their own timeframe. How much of your timeframe you spend in null time is irrelevent. Since no time passes between your party entering into and exiting from a timeless plane, they'd still have the same amount of time to plot against you before you go to your bolt-hole to plan.

IOW, the god's precognition is activated 16-20 weeks before the attack; if you're planning to slip into the Astral and then hike to the god's front door, they still have 16-20 weeks (minus maybe one second for the transition into and out of the Astral) to prepare for you. About the only thing this would do is obfuscate exactly what your preparations are while you're on the Astral. Even then, it's not a crazy stretch to assume that the power or his agents can learn that you're planning to hit the Astral first, and then enter at the same time as the party to cut you off at the pass. That's what I'd do.


Problems:
If the game is assuming a predeterministic universe there's nothing the deity can do to prevent this change from happening, and the deity will fail to prevent its untimely death.

If it is a universe where free will exists, the deity wouldn't sense it because if this is the case, the deity would be 'constantly' under assault from threats to its portfolio, most of which would be phantoms. (i.e. in all possible futures there would be infinite numbers of threats or variations on threats).


The stated ability to sense their own future deaths and prepare to thwart it implies gods are trans-temporal. Don't go spilling quantum all down your shirt.

[Slipperychicken]

DM in our game would never allow a mere mortal to kill a god, much less hurt it... he said you may defeat an avatar of a god but your not going to kill a god... He also laughs at the Ur-Priest prestige class at the fact that they "steal" spells from gods, yeah right he says.

Most of the work is already done for him. Just play those SDAs to their potential and have Ur-Priests get their powers from an ideal, a malevolent fiend, or a spooky cosmic horror.

[angry_bear]

Just hope the Lady of Pain doesn't get miffed at their god-slaying plans. There is an interpretation that Sigil is a kind of cosmic truce-zone, so letting would-be assassins plot there might not go over well. Remember she mazes people just for mentioning her :smallbiggrin:



Just be prepared for them trying to farm Rank 1 Demigods, although any deicide should be enough to get the higher powers on their tails fast (not only because that artifact is Ultimate Power, the PCs killed the gods' friends and buddies, but also because the PCs are a disturbance to the status quo, and greater deities are like the definition of status quo).

But yeah, this is what I meant about the fight being exactly as hard as the DM wants it to be.

True enough, her reaction would be a bit of a crap shoot. However, I think it might be the safest place to plan things out, while also getting the materials you need to get the job done. Not to mention that if you can find the doorway into the target deities domain, you might have a chance of actually catching them off guard.

...Provided The Lady of Pain doesn't Maze you, or outright scatter your essence across the multiverse. lol

[Immabozo]

Wouldn't that only work if the deity was in a timeless plane? Say your target is on a plane with normal time flow; you could use a timeless plane to plot to your heart's content, but as long as the power's precognition was unimpeded, they'd still know exactly when the attack was coming in their own timeframe. How much of your timeframe you spend in null time is irrelevent. Since no time passes between your party entering into and exiting from a timeless plane, they'd still have the same amount of time to plot against you before you go to your bolt-hole to plan.

In my opinion, this would come down to a physics debate and how does time work and how does that relate to someone who leaves the time stream? What if they enter an accelerated time stream? Yes, you could be right, perhaps I am right, perhaps neither of us are right and the real answer is something neither of us would ever guess.

Maybe it rips a hole in the time-space continuum and eats the universe, killing the gods and everything else in it.

I am inso incredibly tired. I'll be interested to read that in the morning and find out if it made any sense what-so-ever

[Pickford]

The stated ability to sense their own future deaths and prepare to thwart it implies gods are trans-temporal. Don't go spilling quantum all down your shirt.

It says fairly specifically that they sense they can sense the future and remotely see it. The implication is the d&d universe is deterministic, like ours, and thus the deity will have no choice in future actions. Thus either the deity is detecting something that can not actually threaten their portfolio, in which case: Self-fulfilling prophecy, Why did they detect it in the first place? Or the deity detects the threat but is incapable of preventing its coming to fruition.

It would be more reasonable if deities as a group were simply better at considering potential outcomes, like a chess master thinking out possible actions 30 moves ahead instead of a novice (mortal) only thinking out 1-5. (thirty was an arbitrary number) I suppose that could be how it functions, but otherwise it seems like the deity would have an infinitely large number of false positives depending on what actions the deity (And other deities) takes.

Edit: Time Stop pretty clearly states it isn't actually affecting others but rather speeding the caster up to the point they no longer perceive any change in the status of the universe for the duration of the spell.

Presumably other 'time altering' spells/effects function similarly.

[Slipperychicken]

It would be more reasonable if deities as a group were simply better at considering potential outcomes, like a chess master thinking out possible actions 30 moves ahead instead of a novice (mortal) only thinking out 1-5. (thirty was an arbitrary number) I suppose that could be how it functions, but otherwise it seems like the deity would have an infinitely large number of false positives depending on what actions the deity (And other deities) takes.


Immortals with 40+ Int, who can sense every event which involves planning, knowledge, or themselves, past or future? Who have had literally eternity to make any plan while knowing exactly what will happen?


Considering these are the guys who the Batman Wizard goes to for advice, I'd say they've got it down pretty well. Also, I don't see a failure chance on their portfolio sense. Not sure where you're getting that from.

[Immabozo]

Immortals with 40+ Int, who can sense every event which involves planning, knowledge, or themselves, past or future? Who have had literally eternity to make any plan while knowing exactly what will happen?

Considering these are the guys who the Batman Wizard goes to for advice, I'd say they've got it down pretty well. Also, I don't see a failure chance on their portfolio sense. Not sure where you're getting that from.

I do agree with this. If an inability to accurately predict the future exists, 1. whats the point of being able to predict it if you cant? and two, how would augry and his spells work if the god didn't know?

[Pickford]

I do agree with this. If an inability to accurately predict the future exists, 1. whats the point of being able to predict it if you cant? and two, how would augry and his spells work if the god didn't know?

Well, for one thing the deity can only sense things that relate to their portfolio going into the future. It's not involved at all unless that future portends the deity being in trig bubble.

Augury is based on the idea the god looks at the thing you are going to attempt, the surrounding circumstances and then tells you if it was a good idea/bad idea.

edit: slipperychicken, planning has nothing to do with it. The deity gets an alarm ~x weeks out that something is happening and then has to remote sense to see what that thing may be. Remote sensing doesn't say that it works temporally i.e. the event has to actually come to pass, though the deity is forewarned there will 'be' an event.

[Spuddles]

Travel through time
Far realm
Quintessence null capsule
Mind rape, program amnesia yourself
Vecna blooded

Basically set up that you are going to kill a god outside of the time stream, then erase your memories that you are going to do it save for some later trigger.

[Immabozo]

Travel through time
Far realm
Quintessence null capsule
Mind rape, program amnesia yourself
Vecna blooded

Basically set up that you are going to kill a god outside of the time stream, then erase your memories that you are going to do it save for some later trigger.

This seems viable

[jokeaccount]

I'm not sure about the greater deities you've read from the Deities and Demigods book, a greater deity cannot generally be defeated. Some of their basic abilities are:

All attack rolls are treated as 20. They only roll for crit confirm (with 90+ on the attack modifier).
They automatically do maximum damage
They automatically succeed all saves
Also the book explicitly says: They are immortal. I do not know how this is treated...

[Immabozo]

I'm not sure about the greater deities you've read from the Deities and Demigods book, a greater deity cannot generally be defeated. Some of their basic abilities are:

All attack rolls are treated as 20. They only roll for crit confirm (with 90+ on the attack modifier).
They automatically do maximum damage
They automatically succeed all saves
Also the book explicitly says: They are immortal. I do not know how this is treated...

I think at this point, much has to be DM Fiat.

[Azoth]

In a world where deities get their strength from their followers' belief, you can theoretically kill them by genociding their entire following. About as much DM fiat area as killing them normally goes.