3.5 Roles of MoI classes?

[Krazzman]

Hello again Playground,

I recently got my hands on the Magic of Incarnum. And after brwosing a bit through it I have one simple question: "What is the role of the Incarnate?".

I looked at Totemist and the Totemist Handbook and thought about a Frontliner going for Natural Attacks and being a "combat"-Monster. D8 HD and a Con focus seemed ok for going frontline.

The Soulborn seemed to me like some kind of Paladin. D10, Smite Opposition and such stuff + rather limited Meldshaping that seemed similar to Paladin or Ranger Spell progression.

But for the Incarnate at first glace I thought: hmm Meldshaping Warlock... until I saw the sample Incarnate being depicted as some sort of Paladin too... and since I can't seem to find an Incarnate Handbook I am confused what I can do with an Incarnate or what I should expect from playing one.

For a Backup-Char I am thinking about having a Meldshaper and thought about either going for Totemrager or something else.

I hope you can help me clear my confusion.

[shadow_archmagi]

The Totemist is generally the go-to class for rip-and-tear, as you guessed.

The Incarnate (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=lv8r82ijf1uhcrnbi3miuabtv0&topic=6920.0) is a much more versatile class, and can fulfil a lot of different roles depending on overall build and daily preparation.

The Soulborn is generally referred to as specializing in being not very useful

[Coidzor]

Incarnates can fill a variety of roles, including melee combatant. IIRC it's the posterchild for a poor BAB melee guy when built for the task specifically.

[Gotterdammerung]

Hello again Playground,

I recently got my hands on the Magic of Incarnum. And after brwosing a bit through it I have one simple question: "What is the role of the Incarnate?".

I looked at Totemist and the Totemist Handbook and thought about a Frontliner going for Natural Attacks and being a "combat"-Monster. D8 HD and a Con focus seemed ok for going frontline.

The Soulborn seemed to me like some kind of Paladin. D10, Smite Opposition and such stuff + rather limited Meldshaping that seemed similar to Paladin or Ranger Spell progression.

But for the Incarnate at first glace I thought: hmm Meldshaping Warlock... until I saw the sample Incarnate being depicted as some sort of Paladin too... and since I can't seem to find an Incarnate Handbook I am confused what I can do with an Incarnate or what I should expect from playing one.

For a Backup-Char I am thinking about having a Meldshaper and thought about either going for Totemrager or something else.

I hope you can help me clear my confusion.

Incarnum in general is one of my favorite sub-systems. I wish it had received more content before WotC jumped ship on 3.5

Unfortunately, the question you are asking is difficult to answer directly. It is hard to directly define the incarnates role in a group because it is an adaptive system. An incarnates role will likely change from player to player. Both the incarnum based classes share this adaptability (Excluding soulborn, because it is kind of a failed class due to cripplingly low melds and essentia).

I often see Totemist shoehorned into the nat attack brute build as if it is the only viable way to play a totemist. There is nothing wrong with a nat attack combat monster version of totemist, but the class has many different builds.

If you forced me to compare an incarnum user to another base class, I guess the best comparison would be to compare it to the Tome of Battle Classes or a Binder. Competent with lots of neat tricks that vary from player to player.

But as far as roles go, the possibilities are vast. You can focus a role or spread out among a few roles.

Tank
Bruiser
Blaster
Utility
Mobility

Are the easiest roles for an incarnate to accomplish.

Healer
Battlefield Control
Counter
and Problem Solver

Are the hardest roles for an incarnate to accomplish.

[Gnaeus]

What is the difference between Utility and Problem Solver?

[WhatBigTeeth]

If the incarnate dedicates half its soulmelds to combat buffs, Chaotic, Lawful and Evil Incarnates tend to put up an offense comparable to the core fighter, with the remaining soulmelds open for zombies, utility, minor blasting or whatever else.

Good incarnates kind of suffer turtle syndrome, but you could shoe-horn the class into a UMD-monkey role or play it like a blaster and hope its offensive damage output is enough to bait enemies into triggering its mantle of flame.

But any direction they're built, incarnates love multiclassing, and both benefit from and contribute to nearly all of the other classes in their respective roles.

[Krazzman]

But as far as roles go, the possibilities are vast. You can focus a role or spread out among a few roles.

Tank
Bruiser
Blaster
Utility
Mobility

Are the easiest roles for an incarnate to accomplish.

Healer
Battlefield Control
Counter
and Problem Solver

Are the hardest roles for an incarnate to accomplish.

How can he accomplish that things? And how "viable" is the healer Part of the Incarnate. Bruiser Blaster Utility and Mobility I can see but with Bad BaB and a d6 HD I can't imagine a tank out of the class.

It's sad that Soulborn is "failed" since from what I saw it would've been a nice alternative to the Paladin...

[Piggy Knowles]

Basic answer? Skillmonkey. Despite the 2 SP/level, the Incarnate has soulmelds that can give a +14 or so bonus to most useful skills, and the Rapid Meldshaping feature to switch out soulmelds as needed.

Will they be ahead of, say, a rogue who has specialized in that skill? No, of course not. But they'll be decent at just about anything, and they can actually cover a much wider breadth of skills than the typical rogue. Because of the way investing essentia works, they can pump all their essentia into skills when they need to make a check, and then as a swift action re-invest their essentia to their combat or whatever soulmelds as circumstances require.

It's a cute mechanic, and I'm a big fan of it. Imagine a rogue with fewer skill points, but a wider skill selection, and the ability to change out what skills they've invested ranks into as a swift action.

This, of course, is on top of any other soulmelds the Incarnate has shaped that day, making her a decent melee combatant (although this is not where they shine, IMO), a necromancer, a defensive powerhouse, an evasive aerial wand expert, whatever, on any given day.

[WhatBigTeeth]

...
but with Bad BaB and a d6 HD I can't imagine a tank out of the class.
Relevant thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers)

(But keep in mind those numbers are a baseline; you'd normally replace Incarnate Weapon with a +1 Skillful Soulbound <other enhancements> Longspear and a Pearl of Power III for your caster buddy's Greater Magic Weapon)

[Ernir]

I think you'll be much happier with the MoI classes (and 3.5 in general) if you stop thinking about what kind of role each class fulfills, and start thinking about what kind of tasks a given character of that class can accomplish.

For example, Incarnates can find traps. Incarnates can see invisible things. Incarnates can stun. And so on. I doubt the Incarnate's abilities are going to fit neatly into any set of tasks that defines a "role".

And that's OK in 3.5.

[Big Fau]

Relevant thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers)

(But keep in mind those numbers are a baseline; you'd normally replace Incarnate Weapon with a +1 Skillful Soulbound <other enhancements> Longspear and a Pearl of Power III for your caster buddy's Greater Magic Weapon)

If you are going for the Skillful weapon, ignore the Soulbound ability (it takes a +3 equivalent to make it do what it was intended to do, you're better off buying the Pearl of Power).

[WhatBigTeeth]

If you are going for the Skillful weapon, ignore the Soulbound ability (it takes a +3 equivalent to make it do what it was intended to do, you're better off buying the Pearl of Power).
Looking at the MIC version of the item, you're right. My group has been misusing the enhancement (capping the increase to enhancement bonuses at +5, rather than the total enhancement bonus).

In that case, drop the mention of Soulbound weaponry, but the point remains the same - Incarnate Weapon's numeric effects are largely surpassed with weapon enhancements and GMW.

[Person_Man]

In my opinion, these are the most useful things an Incarnate can do:

Necrocarnum Circlet bound to your Crown Charkra is probably your most important and powerful ability. You can create a Necrocarnum Zombie (much better then a standard zombie) from any dead creature AT WILL, with no duration, which you control mentally with no action. You can only have one at a time, and it's hit dice is limited by your meldshaper level. But it gives you an infinitely replaceable companion, mount, flanking partner, door opener, trap activator, Wizard grappler, etc. Basically you get a second Tier 4ish creature to control.

DEFENSE: The Incarnate is one the game's best meat shields. He has easy access to Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, massive bonus hit points, Deflect Arrows multiple times per round, bonuses to Saves and AC, Energy Resistance, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Miss Chance, Incorporealness, etc.

Utility: LOTS of options here. If there is something that needs to be done out of combat, you can probably do it well.

Share Soulmeld: Get a Familiar or Animal Companion. Take the Share Soulmeld Feat. Now your friend has all of the benefits of your soulmelds, basically doubling their effectiveness. This makes him much better at seemingly mediocre options, like ranged attacks or Save or Suck effects (of which there are several useful ones, including Daze and Suggestion effects, though you'll need high Wisdom to use them effectively).

Healing: Theraputic Mantle improves any healing effect by 2 * essentia invested points. ANY healing effect, not just spells. So you have a Vampiric weapon, it now heals 1d6 + (2*essentia invested) points per successful attack. If you take 1 level of Crusader or 2 Feats to get the Martial Spirit stance, it will also heal you 2 + (2*essentia invested) points per successful attack. If you use a wand to cast Lesser Vitality (Spell Compondium) on someone, it heals 1 + (2*essentia invested) points per turn. If you're psionic, you can use one of the Vampiric powers. And so on. Stack a bunch of passive/triggered healing effects together, and you'll be extremely difficult to kill. There's also a couple of other out of combat infinite healing tricks with the Soulspark Familiar or Lifebond Vestments.

[AmberVael]

How can he accomplish that things? And how "viable" is the healer Part of the Incarnate. Bruiser Blaster Utility and Mobility I can see but with Bad BaB and a d6 HD I can't imagine a tank out of the class.

First, constitution is a relatively important stat for any incarnum character. As such, I think it is fair to say that an incarnum character will have a constitution comparable to most melee characters.

Therefore, the only real discrepancy is in HD.
A d6 has an average of 3.5.
A d10 has an average of 5.5
A d12 has an average of 6.5

So, there's a gap, if not one that is particularly hard to close.

Enter Vitality Belt. For 1 essentia, gain +1 hp per meldshaper level.
By level 3, Incarnate can put in 2 essentia and match the fighter.
By level 6, the Incarnate can drop in 3 essentia and match warblade and Barbarian.
By level 18, the Incarnate can put in 6 essentia and laugh at everyone as they're only a step away from effectively rolling a d20.

The cool thing to note is that Vitality Belt isn't something you constantly need up to make it work- in the beginning of combat, you probably won't need to invest in Vitality Belt at all. Only later on when you're taking hits does it really become necessary to put essentia into it. And then once you're healed? Drop it all back out again and repeat.


For offense, Incarnate Weapon is pretty much unbeatable at low levels due to how much essentia you can invest into it. Later on you might switch out for the Greater Magic Weapon / Skillful combo, but for a while you can be swinging around a +3 weapon while the wizard is struggling to make anything +1.

I tend to focus on what the Law Incarnate can do though. Take a look at it- it's my opinion that Law is the best Incarnate alignment- they definitely get the best Incarnate Avatar (insight to melee? A bind that gives a bunch of awesome immunities instead of a really lame and late fly speed? HELL YEAH). Using the Law version of Incarnate Avatar, at many low levels the incarnate can either match or exceed the BaB bonus of typical combat classes. Admittedly they start lagging later, especially as they lose out on iterative attacks, but at that point they also have far more ready access to Incarnum Radiance, which just further boosts their attack rolls back up to nice levels with an untyped bonus. They're not gonna have a hard time keeping up at all in terms of bonus.

Evil necessarily works differently from Law, but I have gained an appreciation for it too. My tendency is to actually build an Evil aligned incarnate more like a totemist- indeed, I'll often use Shape Soulmeld on a totemist to get that version of Incarnate Avatar, or to get a meld that puts more natural attacks on an evil Incarnate. This is because the Incarnum Radiance and Incarnate Avatar from an evil character strongly benefits from numerous attacks- and stacking natural attacks is one of the nicest ways to handle that for them since you can use Shape Soulmeld to get them quite a few early on, and the right choice of race just makes it even better. Because you don't actually need high BaB to make natural attacks work well, you can just focus on getting any other bonus to attack instead, which makes your task somewhat easier.


I will definitely note that Incarnum, and Incarnate in particular, is best at low to mid levels- particularly as a straight up combatant. At high levels, their cool scaling bonuses stop being so cool or scaling, and they struggle a lot more to keep their magic items in harmony with soulmelds. High level characters do tend to benefit from incarnum splashes though. It's a good way to get unusual bonuses to stack with your more typical bonuses.

[Big Fau]

IIRC there is a CN Incarnate Archer build in the Incarnum Handbook over at BG. It's been a while since I saw it, but I remember it being well-constructed.

NG Incarnates are UMD monkeys or a setup for Soulcaster. That's really the best way to play them unless you focus on Lockdown Tripping (which NE Incarnates do better).

NE Incarnates can be played as glass cannons, or as Chain Trippers (minus the chain, unless you want it). Touch attacks are easy to make with the Incarnate Weapon (and it's a flail, so that really helps trip attempts), and when the enemy is prone the extra attack you get (and any subsequent iteratives) will be more likely to connect.

LN Incarnates are effectively tanks by default. This role works best if you have a Bard in the party or some other buff-happy caster nearby, as you are a better target for buff spells than most Tier 4s put together. The low BAB is a hindrance, but that only means you get 2 attacks/full attack and don't really care as much about Pounce as other melee classes and need to find an alternative source of damage boosting (since Power Attack is limited in use when you have a +10 BAB).

[Gotterdammerung]

How can he accomplish that things? And how "viable" is the healer Part of the Incarnate. Bruiser Blaster Utility and Mobility I can see but with Bad BaB and a d6 HD I can't imagine a tank out of the class.

It's sad that Soulborn is "failed" since from what I saw it would've been a nice alternative to the Paladin...

Yes it is sad that the soulborn is so crap. But there are homebrew fixes in the homebrew section of these very forums that provide working alternatives.

As for your first and second questions, Personman pretty much answered them very close to how I would of answered them.

And your skepticism about the tanky nature was answered by Personman, Whatbigteeth, and AmberVael.

So sadly, I have no questions left to answer.

Oh wait, except this guys question.


What is the difference between Utility and Problem Solver?

A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.

Essentially, a utility based character often does solve problems but they are more geared for convenience. A problem solver build is a more hyper-driven version of a utility build, like a batman wizard abjurer. Problem solvers have an answer for everything. So in a nutshell, utility characters smooth the rough edges of an adventure. Problem solver builds remove/ignore/neuter all the edges,walls, threats, inconveniences in an adventure.

[AmberVael]

IIRC there is a CN Incarnate Archer build in the Incarnum Handbook over at BG. It's been a while since I saw it, but I remember it being well-constructed.

One of the builds I recall just uses Dissolving Spittle and Incarnate Avatar (possibly Sighting Gloves too) to get a fairly large ranged attack bonus on a ranged touch attack that does damage twice.

This one is one of those things that can easily be boosted significantly via Share Soulmeld. One feat to basically double your dissolving spittle is pretty handy.


I think I saw a small description of one made by Sinfire Titan that just used all the damage and attack boosters possible in order to be a super sniper. Again, Incarnate Avatar, Sighting Gloves, probably using that and other bonuses (collision, splitting, and so on) to just hit people as hard as possible from a long distance.



As another note, if you want to truly focus on it, you can actually boost the essentia capacity of any given soulmeld rather significantly. Expanded Soulmeld Capacity is a really great feat to have for this purpose, particularly since you can get it at level 1, and you can shift around what soulmeld it applies to every day. Add to this the Incarnate's Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, and an Incarnum focus item, and you go from the standard limit of 4 essentia in a meld to 8 essentia in a meld. You can apply each of these factors to more than one soulmeld as well- so the real limit to how much essentia you can put in something is more about how much you want to invest into getting better at it, and how much essentia you actually have to use.

[Psyren]

In my opinion, these are the most useful things an Incarnate can do:

Necrocarnum Circlet bound to your Crown Charkra is probably your most important and powerful ability. You can create a Necrocarnum Zombie (much better then a standard zombie) from any dead creature AT WILL, with no duration, which you control mentally with no action. You can only have one at a time, and it's hit dice is limited by your meldshaper level. But it gives you an infinitely replaceable companion, mount, flanking partner, door opener, trap activator, Wizard grappler, etc. Basically you get a second Tier 4ish creature to control.

DEFENSE: The Incarnate is one the game's best meat shields. He has easy access to Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, massive bonus hit points, Deflect Arrows multiple times per round, bonuses to Saves and AC, Energy Resistance, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Miss Chance, Incorporealness, etc.

Utility: LOTS of options here. If there is something that needs to be done out of combat, you can probably do it well.

Share Soulmeld: Get a Familiar or Animal Companion. Take the Share Soulmeld Feat. Now your friend has all of the benefits of your soulmelds, basically doubling their effectiveness. This makes him much better at seemingly mediocre options, like ranged attacks or Save or Suck effects (of which there are several useful ones, including Daze and Suggestion effects, though you'll need high Wisdom to use them effectively).

Healing: Theraputic Mantle improves any healing effect by 2 * essentia invested points. ANY healing effect, not just spells. So you have a Vampiric weapon, it now heals 1d6 + (2*essentia invested) points per successful attack. If you take 1 level of Crusader or 2 Feats to get the Martial Spirit stance, it will also heal you 2 + (2*essentia invested) points per successful attack. If you use a wand to cast Lesser Vitality (Spell Compondium) on someone, it heals 1 + (2*essentia invested) points per turn. If you're psionic, you can use one of the Vampiric powers. And so on. Stack a bunch of passive/triggered healing effects together, and you'll be extremely difficult to kill. There's also a couple of other out of combat infinite healing tricks with the Soulspark Familiar or Lifebond Vestments.

I'll add one to this great pile: MULTICLASS. Incarnum is perhaps the greatest supplementary power source in the game. It's the Guile's Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTYtH28esTg) of 3.5 - it goes with everything. Just one level gets you every Incarnate soulmeld in the game, and they can theurge with the big 3 as well. And unlike most alternate systems, your "systemlevel" (Meldshaper Level in this instance) barely matters to its effectiveness.

[Larkas]

I won't argue about the Soulborn crappiness, but I will point out that it isn't as crappy as some people would have you believe. Cue the Guide to the Soulborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9735.0) that I recently ported to the MinMaxBoards. The Soulborn can be built to be an effective party member, even if it is in high T5/low T4 territory. Check the builds in that handbook!

I must say, though, that I would probably houserule it to have full meldshaper level, if only to enable it to take Double Chakra earlier. And I'd also houserule this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9741.0;msg=158424) in their favor, if only to enable this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9741.0).

[Person_Man]

RE: Ranged Incarnate

In general I'm not a fan of any ranged build, because the gameplay for such a character tends to be boringly repetitive. So I personally would only keep it as a backup option. But these are your building blocks/options:


Dissolving Spittle: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested) Standard Action 30 ft ranged touch attack with no Saving Throw, which you can re-roll one round later if it's bound to your Throat chakra (Incarnate 14 at the earliest). If you pull off the Share Soulmeld trick I noted in my post above, your Familiar/Companion can use it as well, basically doubling the damage.

Incarnate Avatar gives you a (1 * essentia invested) Insight bonus to hit on ranged attack rolls if you're Chaotic. (Good = AC, Evil = damage, Lawful = Melee To-Hit).

Sighting Gloves gives you a 1 + (essentia invested) bonus to damage rolls with ranged weapons (Dissolving Spittle isn't a weapon), plus Precise Shot if it's bound to your Hands chakra.

Flame Cincture: By default it grants you 10 + (5 * essentia) Fire Resistance. When bound to your Waist Chakra (typically Incarnate 14 or Whatever 5/Ironsoul Forgemaster 6) any Fire damage you Resist can be released one round later as a Swift Action ranged touch attack, dealing the same amount of damage you resisted (Reflex half). This is my preferred option, as it provides a fairly handy passive defense, is only a Swift Action to use as an attack, and you can always buy an Explosive weapon (Comp Warrior) which deals Fire damage in a 5 ft radius if you want to power it up on your own. (Or just ask an ally to dump Fireballs on you).

Keep in mind that Essentia Capacity generally works out to be between 1-6 points, or 7-8 if you invest in a Feat and/or pricy-ish magic item. So we're talking about respectable but not huge numbers on all of the above.

[Coidzor]

It's sad that Soulborn is "failed" since from what I saw it would've been a nice alternative to the Paladin...

There's a couple of fairly good fixes on GITP you might find worthwhile if you're really interested in pursuing that line.

[Big Fau]

RE: Ranged Incarnate

In general I'm not a fan of any ranged build, because the gameplay for such a character tends to be boringly repetitive. So I personally would only keep it as a backup option. But these are your building blocks/options:


Dissolving Spittle: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested) Standard Action 30 ft ranged touch attack with no Saving Throw, which you can re-roll one round later if it's bound to your Throat chakra (Incarnate 14 at the earliest). If you pull off the Share Soulmeld trick I noted in my post above, your Familiar/Companion can use it as well, basically doubling the damage.

Incarnate Avatar gives you a (1 * essentia invested) Insight bonus to hit on ranged attack rolls if you're Chaotic. (Good = AC, Evil = damage, Lawful = Melee To-Hit).

Sighting Gloves gives you a 1 + (essentia invested) bonus to damage rolls with ranged weapons (Dissolving Spittle isn't a weapon), plus Precise Shot if it's bound to your Hands chakra.

Flame Cincture: By default it grants you 10 + (5 * essentia) Fire Resistance. When bound to your Waist Chakra (typically Incarnate 14 or Whatever 5/Ironsoul Forgemaster 6) any Fire damage you Resist can be released one round later as a Swift Action ranged touch attack, dealing the same amount of damage you resisted (Reflex half). This is my preferred option, as it provides a fairly handy passive defense, is only a Swift Action to use as an attack, and you can always buy an Explosive weapon (Comp Warrior) which deals Fire damage in a 5 ft radius if you want to power it up on your own. (Or just ask an ally to dump Fireballs on you).

Keep in mind that Essentia Capacity generally works out to be between 1-6 points, or 7-8 if you invest in a Feat and/or pricy-ish magic item. So we're talking about respectable but not huge numbers on all of the above.

An option for at-will Fire damage is to use Leadership to obtain a Beguiler (the creature) Dragonfire Adept as a cohort, and give it various metabreath feats through some means (Clinging and Lingering more importantly). 9d6 averages out to 31/32 damage, which gets halved by Clinging/Lingering Breath. This makes it nice and easy for the Flame Cincture to resist the damage.

[Gotterdammerung]

RE: Ranged Incarnate

In general I'm not a fan of any ranged build, because the gameplay for such a character tends to be boringly repetitive. So I personally would only keep it as a backup option. But these are your building blocks/options:


Dissolving Spittle: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested) Standard Action 30 ft ranged touch attack with no Saving Throw, which you can re-roll one round later if it's bound to your Throat chakra (Incarnate 14 at the earliest). If you pull off the Share Soulmeld trick I noted in my post above, your Familiar/Companion can use it as well, basically doubling the damage.

Incarnate Avatar gives you a (1 * essentia invested) Insight bonus to hit on ranged attack rolls if you're Chaotic. (Good = AC, Evil = damage, Lawful = Melee To-Hit).

Sighting Gloves gives you a 1 + (essentia invested) bonus to damage rolls with ranged weapons (Dissolving Spittle isn't a weapon), plus Precise Shot if it's bound to your Hands chakra.

Flame Cincture: By default it grants you 10 + (5 * essentia) Fire Resistance. When bound to your Waist Chakra (typically Incarnate 14 or Whatever 5/Ironsoul Forgemaster 6) any Fire damage you Resist can be released one round later as a Swift Action ranged touch attack, dealing the same amount of damage you resisted (Reflex half). This is my preferred option, as it provides a fairly handy passive defense, is only a Swift Action to use as an attack, and you can always buy an Explosive weapon (Comp Warrior) which deals Fire damage in a 5 ft radius if you want to power it up on your own. (Or just ask an ally to dump Fireballs on you).

Keep in mind that Essentia Capacity generally works out to be between 1-6 points, or 7-8 if you invest in a Feat and/or pricy-ish magic item. So we're talking about respectable but not huge numbers on all of the above.

The sickest most horrifying villain I have ever created uses flame cinture :smallsmile:

I am saving it for an appropriate Iron Chef round so there isn't much I can share. It isn't horrifying through any power tricks. Its the theme of what the villain does that makes him so terrifying. He takes "self-mutilating masochist" to a WHOLE NEW LEVEL!

[KillingAScarab]

Psyren, for your comparison of Incarnum to Guile Theme Goes with Everything, here (http://you-win-the-internet.com/?n=Psyren).


I won't argue about the Soulborn crappiness, but I will point out that it isn't as crappy as some people would have you believe. Cue the Guide to the Soulborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9735.0) that I recently ported to the MinMaxBoards. The Soulborn can be built to be an effective party member, even if it is in high T5/low T4 territory. Check the builds in that handbook!

I must say, though, that I would probably houserule it to have full meldshaper level, if only to enable it to take Double Chakra earlier. And I'd also houserule this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9741.0;msg=158424) in their favor, if only to enable this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9741.0).I recently found that soulborn handbook through the Internet Archive, but I'm going to add your copy of it to my bookmarks. You also added the link to the draconic soulmelds which I had only seen mentioned, before. Thanks for putting up a fresh thread, which might gather more feedback. I think I will begin recommending it over the original.

I'm playing a soulborn in a PBP here. All RP, so far. Like others, I see it as being more attractive than the paladin. While the incarnate has detect opposition, the soulborn has the smite. A soulborn seems to need to at least conspire with someone, if not use teamwork, to attempt to smite all the things. If a soulborn does something, like hang out with the wrong people for a day as a 1st level character, it will not lose class features until a 6th level spell can be cast. You have to do something alignment-shifting for that to happen, and even then you might just end up in a compatible alignment. The chaotic good, chaotic evil and lawful evil variants are built-in. It won't stack up to the paladin on published support. Paladins had a whole bunch of spells added to their class list in the complete books. I understand this, but I much prefer the first two parts. This character is going to hit stuff while wearing other stuff which is blue, and I'm fine with that.

[Larkas]

I recently found that soulborn handbook through the Internet Archive, but I'm going to add your copy of it to my bookmarks. You also added the link to the draconic soulmelds which I had only seen mentioned, before. Thanks for putting up a fresh thread, which might gather more feedback. I think I will begin recommending it over the original.

Hey, I'm glad someone found it useful! :smallsmile:

[Bonzai]

I have played a Soulborn, and I can verify that it is pretty bad. It wasn't due to a lack of essentia. You really don't have that many melds to worry about and your bonus feats really do help. It wasn't the lack of soulmelds. Yeah.. more would have been nice, but I was ok with the number I had. The thing that aggravated me the most about the class, was that it had no way to swap out melds pre-epic. It doesn't sound like that big of a deal, but let me explain.

You have a small selection of melds, and they are all fairly useful. They do however fall into two categories, every day melds and utility melds. In practice, you almost never use your utility melds, as you seldom know exactly what you are going to need in advance during the day. So instead you just stick with your every day melds, limiting your limited selection even more.

So you end up never changing out your melds, except for when you get to bind a new one every 4 levels or so. Let me restate that. You only get an additional meld once every 4 levels. Yeah, you get additional class features, but it still gets pretty stale fast as you have access to everything you are going to get early on, and only see incremental improvement as you level. If you had some mechanic to swap them out, it would go a long way towards improving the class, and keeping things fresh.

Performance wise, I was comparable to the party fighter. I ran a charge/smite/trip build that did ok. I could have optimized the build better in hindsight, but I was learning as I went.

[Draz74]

Basic answer? Skillmonkey. Despite the 2 SP/level, the Incarnate has soulmelds that can give a +14 or so bonus to most useful skills, and the Rapid Meldshaping feature to switch out soulmelds as needed.

Will they be ahead of, say, a rogue who has specialized in that skill? No, of course not. Yes, at some levels, or if they start by dipping a level of Rogue (or three levels of Factotum) before multiclassing to Incarnate. But they'll be decent at just about anything, and they can actually cover a much wider breadth of skills than the typical rogue. Because of the way investing essentia works, they can pump all their essentia into skills when they need to make a check, and then as a swift action re-invest their essentia to their combat or whatever soulmelds as circumstances require.

It's a cute mechanic, and I'm a big fan of it. Imagine a rogue with fewer skill points, but a wider skill selection, and the ability to change out what skills they've invested ranks into as a swift action.

Fixed that for you.

Factotum 3 / Incarnate 2 / Umbral Disciple X / Uncanny Trickster 3 (advancing Incarnate) makes a pretty incredible skillmonkey. (Fill in with whatever skill-friendly dips you favor, e.g. Exemplar, Swordsage, or Chameleon.)

[Big Fau]

I have played a Soulborn, and I can verify that it is pretty bad. It wasn't due to a lack of essentia. You really don't have that many melds to worry about and your bonus feats really do help. It wasn't the lack of soulmelds. Yeah.. more would have been nice, but I was ok with the number I had. The thing that aggravated me the most about the class, was that it had no way to swap out melds pre-epic. It doesn't sound like that big of a deal, but let me explain.

You have a small selection of melds, and they are all fairly useful. They do however fall into two categories, every day melds and utility melds. In practice, you almost never use your utility melds, as you seldom know exactly what you are going to need in advance during the day. So instead you just stick with your every day melds, limiting your limited selection even more.

So you end up never changing out your melds, except for when you get to bind a new one every 4 levels or so. Let me restate that. You only get an additional meld once every 4 levels. Yeah, you get additional class features, but it still gets pretty stale fast as you have access to everything you are going to get early on, and only see incremental improvement as you level. If you had some mechanic to swap them out, it would go a long way towards improving the class, and keeping things fresh.

Performance wise, I was comparable to the party fighter. I ran a charge/smite/trip build that did ok. I could have optimized the build better in hindsight, but I was learning as I went.

I've played all three classes, but I've never felt the need to use the Incarnate's ability to reshape soulmelds (although I've used the Rebind Totem ability before). However, my experiences with the Soulborn are a fair bit different. Their soulmelds are limited in application, have an insane vulnerability to Dispel Magic (1/2 Meldshaper level), and they lack the chakra binds to get the good effects of their soulmelds.

Also, there was the issue of the class not getting its meldshaping until 4th level. That infuriated me.

[Piggy Knowles]

I've played all three classes, but I've never felt the need to use the Incarnate's ability to reshape soulmelds (although I've used the Rebind Totem ability before).

Really? When I played an Incarnate that was one of my favorite abilities. Usually swapping one soulmeld is all it takes to, say, go from a combat build to a more social one, so it's nice to be able to adjust abilities on demand.

[Bonzai]

I've played all three classes, but I've never felt the need to use the Incarnate's ability to reshape soulmelds (although I've used the Rebind Totem ability before). However, my experiences with the Soulborn are a fair bit different. Their soulmelds are limited in application, have an insane vulnerability to Dispel Magic (1/2 Meldshaper level), and they lack the chakra binds to get the good effects of their soulmelds.

Also, there was the issue of the class not getting its meldshaping until 4th level. That infuriated me.

There were several situations that occurred where through party scouting I knew what was coming. For example, say a room full of shadows and my one meld that I have is occupied by Mauling gauntlets which help with the trip build I was playing. In that scenario, having a strongheart vest up to cancel out their ability damage would be more beneficial to me than maxing out my strength check to trip them. But unless I want to hold up the party for a day, I'm going to have to forget about using the utility melds.

To me that is aggravating. To have the right tool for the job but have to ignore it, as I have no way of using it without either inconveniencing myself or my party. I can handle having a small selection of melds and only being able to have a couple up at a time, but even if it took a feat and taking 10 minutes to swap one out would be worth it.

Yeah, getting dispelled is annoying, but it's only for a D4 rounds. I can deal with that. Besides, if the casters are wasting their turns dispelling my soul melds then that is probably the least effective thing they could have done.

[Krazzman]

Sorry that I haven't responded in a while, but finally I have time now.

The whole MoI is a book that I am really angry about that I didn't have it sooner.

I was thinking of going Cleric 2/Warlock 1/Cleric 2/Eldritch Disciple X in a currently running campaign now my question is: would you advice me to switch from that to Cleric/Incarnate/Dualprogression PrC?

If yes then what shapes should I look into? (Char in question is a Human CG, Cleric of Tymora with Luck and Travel Domain + Travel Devotion and: 16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 16 Wis and 15 Cha...)
The idea behind the build was to get See the Unseen and Baleful Utterance + Eldritch Blast and still being a cleric.

[KillingAScarab]

The only prestige class which advances meldshaping and divine spellcasting is Sapphire Hierarch, which requires access to the Law domain and a lawful character. But, perhaps it could be adapted so there is an opposed prestige class with a chaos bent? Tie it into Tymora and the Luck domain instead, maybe replace some of the abilities with those the Auspician from Faiths and Pantheons got in 3e. Lucky blow seems more in line than a smite against law (pick up power attack on your own to use it). Make fortitude a good save, since it's a good save for all meldshapers, clerics and auspicians? I don't know why it was made poor.

[Big Fau]

If you can get Sapphire Hierarch adapted to CN, do so and put those archery abilities to good use as a support character. If you can get it to NG, or can't get the alignment requirements altered at all, play the Cleric as a Tank only if the party doesn't all ready have one.


Even without full casting, you'd be outshining most noncasters in melee by going Sapphire Hierarch.

[KillingAScarab]

Thinking about it a bit more, it seems strange to tie in an incarnum prestige class to a deity. Except for one thing. I believe I read somewhere that it's believed that whenever a soul is born, a coin is flipped which determines whether they are bound to good luck, bad luck or it can land on edge and the individuals decide their own fate. Isn't Tymora in possession of that coin? If so, perhaps the adaptation might tie in to the coin more than the deity. The "souls of those long dead, currently living and not yet born" fluff with incarnum makes quite a bit of sense there.

[Person_Man]

Note that while Sapphire Hierarch provides full divine caster progression and full meldshaper level, soulmeld, chakra bind, and essentia progression, it does NOT open up new chakra slots. (And it's only 5/10 BAB, d6 hit die, and crud Skills).
So it's really best for mid level campaigns, ECL 6-10ish.

[Psyren]

Note that while Sapphire Hierarch provides full divine caster progression and full meldshaper level, soulmeld, chakra bind, and essentia progression, it does NOT open up new chakra slots. (And it's only 5/10 BAB, d6 hit die, and crud Skills).
So it's really best for mid level campaigns, ECL 6-10ish.

In high level games you can always just rely on the Open Chakra spells to get them instead. You miss out on Heart and Soul, but you get the rest - and almost all PrCs give those two up anyway. 9th-level cleric casting is worth it I'd say.

Of course, psionics does it even better - a Psion/Wilder with +4 or more ML is capable of opening Throat and Waist even earlier than a pure Incarnate can.

[Waker]

I was thinking of going Cleric 2/Warlock 1/Cleric 2/Eldritch Disciple X in a currently running campaign now my question is: would you advice me to switch from that to Cleric/Incarnate/Dualprogression PrC?

If yes then what shapes should I look into? (Char in question is a Human CG, Cleric of Tymora with Luck and Travel Domain + Travel Devotion and: 16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 16 Wis and 15 Cha...)
The idea behind the build was to get See the Unseen and Baleful Utterance + Eldritch Blast and still being a cleric.

As others have noted, being an Incarnate requires one aspect of neutrality in your alignment, so you'll need to be Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Good. Totemist is not bound by the same alignment restriction. The Sapphire Hierarch also requires the Law domain, but you can ask your DM really nice to replace that with something else.
The melds you use will be based on your playstyle. One meld I would suggest if for no other reason than your choice of deity, are Lucky Dice, which is an Incarnate meld. If you go with Totemist or take the Shape Soulmeld feat, you might like the Phase Cloak, which lets you assume an ethereal form while moving.
The lowest chakra bind to see invisible as an Incarnate is Illusion Veil I believe, though I would have to check the book to be certain. Can't remember which it is for the Totemist.

[KillingAScarab]

Regarding alignment restrictions for Incarnates, the play-by-post I am in has one other person playing a lawful good incarnate with the DM's permission, which I understand will be benefiting only as Good, not getting Law as well. Not saying this is a better interpretation of the class, just that sometimes DMs are willing to waive alignment restrictions a little. In your case, Krazzman, chaotic neutral and neutral good would both still be valid for Tymora, but see if your DM thinks you need an alignment shift before Incarnate entry.