PDA

View Full Version : When the DM asks, "Are you sure?"



CoffeeIncluded
2013-04-30, 08:40 AM
Generally, that's the big red flashing light warning sign to stop what you're doing and back away. Have you guys ever had this happen to you, or another player? Have you done this? Any stories to share?

I just had my first, "Are you sure about this moment?" this morning, giving it to a player. I've got an encounter planned where the party needs to rush into a burning building and rescue a guy while fending off the fire elementals he accidentally summoned. While the house is burning down around them. It's a battle where you need to keep a very close eye on terrain and what's going on in the environment around you, because otherwise you're going to end up doubled over coughing from smoke, and then on fire. And then crushed by burning rubble. Basically, as I warned them, "This is going to be a very tough fight and you're going to want all hands on deck for this one."

One of the players, playing a goblin rogue, decided to sneak past thee three fire elementals to rescue the guy. Which would require moving literally right next to at least one fire elemental, through smoke for at least two rounds to get to the guy. Three if she wants to avoid walking into the fire and, you know, being set on fire. No, his character doesn't have hide in plain sight, and even if she can make a hide check in the smoke that provides concealment, she's still walking right next to three fire elementals. So I told him (the player) to take another good look at the map, and followed it with the words, "Are you sure about this?" Guess I'll see later today whether or not he is.

What about the rest of you? Any stories?

Krazzman
2013-04-30, 08:49 AM
I haven't had that moment... as far as I can remember... the problem more or less was that a few of those moments were spoiled due to a) DM being unable to comprehend sarcasm or irony or b) the DM jumping on it directly.

"Of course I tie the 15 ft rope around me and jump down the 10ft tree... *eyerolls*" - I landed on the dwarf that tried to kill me. I had to play excusing to her...

Player A (OOC): Drink it.
Me (OOC): Yeah sure I drink it... NOT!
DM: Starting to roll on a table right before my NOT... "You have some luck... your hair turns neon Green!". (Apparently 75% chance of Insta death... on this poison).

I personally ask this a few times since I have still some problems to explain things good enough.

OzymandiasX
2013-04-30, 09:34 AM
As a GM I often ask my players the "are you sure" question when they're about to do something that is a really good idea. It usually makes them pause and reconsider. And it allows me to ask the question without it being code for "the GM knows this is a bad idea."

supermonkeyjoe
2013-04-30, 09:38 AM
I try to avoid the obvious "are you sure?" aka "I wouldn't do that if I were you". Instead I paraphrase what the player has said, both to clarify exactly what they're doing and to make sure they're serious, quite often just hearing their plan phrased a different way makes them reconsider.

GnomeFighter
2013-04-30, 09:50 AM
I, personaly, let them go with it, but then I'm not a killer GM, so it would take allot of stupidity to get killed. In the origonal example I would try and make sure there was a way out.

I prefer to make the failer not making the goal rather than PC death.

NikitaDarkstar
2013-04-30, 10:05 AM
My first moment like that was in a swedish RP that was basically like D&D but with more micro-managing. Now the game had a quirk that if you charged you couldn't attempt to parry or block to defend yourself. Well I was playing what was basically an anthropomorphic wolf barbarian and we were up against some generic undead, which are a lot tougher in that game. So I charged, my DM asked me "are you sure?" I said yes. My wolf got stabbed through her chest, belly, throat and then decapitated. Lived about 2 in-game hours. It was hilarious. Rolled up a lizardman gladiator after that. (And yes the game used a hitzone type system were each body part has it's own HP, hit 0 and you loose it...)

NichG
2013-04-30, 10:15 AM
All the time. Some players don't like this because it feels like coddling, but on the other hand this allows me to fill the world with truly dangerous things without worrying that it will turn into the Tomb of Horrors and its sphere of annihilation portal.

At the same time, I've had players ignore the "Are you sure?" and either come out ahead, or not. The GM saying "Are you sure?" is a check like "You just said 'delete C:/ ; Is this really what you want to do?" to make sure that the player hasn't misspoke or miscalculated a critical moment. It also is a way of saying 'Whatever happens next is on you' to let players know that they may be calling down things that are not designed to be 'fair' challenges by proceeding in a particular direction.

So all said I think this is a pretty useful tool.

valadil
2013-04-30, 10:43 AM
In my experience "are you sure" is just as likely to be the GM screwing with you as imposing common sense. I try not to second guess the GM and just go with what my character would do. Sometimes this means second guessing my original action, if I've overlooked my character's survival instinct. When that happens, I figure the GM's imposed common sense check kicked in.

Trinoya
2013-04-30, 10:49 AM
I can't even run my game without messing with players minds with this phrase...

The best part is they can't tell if I'm doing it to mess them up or make them actually consider something.

"We are going to the high inquisitor this instant to tell him!"
"are you sure?"
"err.."

"I drop the bomb over the side of the ship"
"Are you sure?"

It's like a magic phrase that brings all the joy to the table... and then to me. >=)

comicshorse
2013-04-30, 11:08 AM
In a Cyberpunk game the PC's are trying to get to talk to some streetkids because they have some information they need. When one of them see's the P.C.s coming he runs at which point the Solo declares his intention to shoot the kid in the leg.......with his .44 Magnum......loaded with explosive bullets

Totally Guy
2013-04-30, 11:12 AM
For me it says "Now we are playing mind games instead of the game we expected".

Amnestic
2013-04-30, 11:28 AM
"Let the dice fall where they may" should apply to weird plans just as much as dice themselves. I do agree supermonkeyjoe - reiterating their plan to them is probably a better plan. It allows them a moment to reconsider and self reflect and it makes sure that both you and the player know you have their plan exactly right so they can't call you out on getting their intentions wrong.

NichG
2013-04-30, 03:10 PM
Sometimes the player just can't know how bad their suggested plan of action really is. Sure, you could just let it fall as it may, but I don't really think e.g. wrecking the campaign or even a player's good time for the sake of hardcore responsibility is really worth it.

I mean, the 'I charge!' thing is one thing, but 'I break the strange staff we found in the middle of the party because we really need firewood' (not knowing its a Staff of Power) is another thing. There's nothing glorious about 'this guy just randomly TPKed us'.

Hyena
2013-04-30, 03:15 PM
- We have a deal.
- You give an innocent man to the ruthless nuke-happy terrorist, who you were fighting with for the entire campaign, because he offers you a tonn money for doing so? Are you absolutely sure?
- Yeah.

It was not exactly good ending for the party.

Alaris
2013-04-30, 05:04 PM
I can't even run my game without messing with players minds with this phrase...

The best part is they can't tell if I'm doing it to mess them up or make them actually consider something.

"We are going to the high inquisitor this instant to tell him!"
"are you sure?"
"err.."

"I drop the bomb over the side of the ship"
"Are you sure?"

It's like a magic phrase that brings all the joy to the table... and then to me. >=)

Well, I was going to make a post in regards to YOUR style of this... but it looks like you beat me to it.

But yes, you do that all the time. And we hate you for it! "Are you sure" is supposed to be a warning! From a kind DM!

Balldanor
2013-04-30, 06:03 PM
My first DM campaign (3rd session), with a new player that hasn't played 3.5 before (15-20 years of 2nd ed)..he's playing a half-orc paladin, the group is heading into a town and the paladin says "I want to visit the graveyard to pray."

Are you sure you don't want to stay with the party and find out what's going on?

"Yes, absolutely"

Ok, no problem. (I describe the graveyard after taking the rest of the group to the town)

"I want to go inside and ask for blessings for each of the deceased."

Are you really sure you want to do that?

"Certainly am"

Ok, as you go over to the first tombstone, roll a spot check (he fails). You get attacked by 2 wolves and a worg, get tripped, and keep getting retripped as you try to get up.


Long story short, the only reason he was able to survive was because I basically timewarped the group back to the graveyard, which was the start of the encounter I was running. I wouldn't have done it, but I didn't want to kill the guy off in his first night of playing with new rules :smallyuk:

Deophaun
2013-04-30, 07:58 PM
You get attacked by 2 wolves and a worg, get tripped, and keep getting retripped as you try to get up.
That probably warranted the PC getting stopped by a random NPC, warning him about the completely unintuitive worg infestation that's been vexing the townfolk by the graveyard, preventing them from paying their respects, rather than an "Are you sure?" Otherwise, it reads like:

Player: I eat breakfast.
DM: Are you sure?
Player: Yes.
DM: Roll initiative as a horde of goblins emerges from your bowl of fruit loops.

navar100
2013-04-30, 08:01 PM
My first DM campaign (3rd session), with a new player that hasn't played 3.5 before (15-20 years of 2nd ed)..he's playing a half-orc paladin, the group is heading into a town and the paladin says "I want to visit the graveyard to pray."

Are you sure you don't want to stay with the party and find out what's going on?

"Yes, absolutely"

Ok, no problem. (I describe the graveyard after taking the rest of the group to the town)

"I want to go inside and ask for blessings for each of the deceased."

Are you really sure you want to do that?

"Certainly am"

Ok, as you go over to the first tombstone, roll a spot check (he fails). You get attacked by 2 wolves and a worg, get tripped, and keep getting retripped as you try to get up.


Long story short, the only reason he was able to survive was because I basically timewarped the group back to the graveyard, which was the start of the encounter I was running. I wouldn't have done it, but I didn't want to kill the guy off in his first night of playing with new rules :smallyuk:

How dare that paladin player want to roleplay instead of following the DM's script!

Matticussama
2013-04-30, 08:34 PM
My first DM campaign (3rd session), with a new player that hasn't played 3.5 before (15-20 years of 2nd ed)..he's playing a half-orc paladin, the group is heading into a town and the paladin says "I want to visit the graveyard to pray."

Are you sure you don't want to stay with the party and find out what's going on?

"Yes, absolutely"

Ok, no problem. (I describe the graveyard after taking the rest of the group to the town)

"I want to go inside and ask for blessings for each of the deceased."

Are you really sure you want to do that?

"Certainly am"

Ok, as you go over to the first tombstone, roll a spot check (he fails). You get attacked by 2 wolves and a worg, get tripped, and keep getting retripped as you try to get up.


Long story short, the only reason he was able to survive was because I basically timewarped the group back to the graveyard, which was the start of the encounter I was running. I wouldn't have done it, but I didn't want to kill the guy off in his first night of playing with new rules :smallyuk:

No offense, but this sounds rather railroady to me. The Paladin was following an action that makes sense for his character and didn't hurt the story in any way; he just wanted to pray. You could have let him have his 5 minutes to develop his character's spiritual side, then have him rejoin the rest of the party. Suddenly having wolves jump out of no where is... questionable.

At the very least, if you already had a graveyard adventure planned out, you should have had the Paladin roll Spot and Listen checks. Wolves and Wargs don't suddenly pop out of nowhere, and almost murdering a player for a single bad roll for attempting to develop a character sounds rather... unenjoyable.

Mr Beer
2013-04-30, 08:47 PM
"Are you sure" is GM for "yeah, you don't want to do that".

I only use it for when the character is doing something silly that will get the whole party slaughtered and/or captured e.g. "The rich, famous merchant mildly rebukes me!? I hack off his head!".

Generally I just gently clarify what the player said as suggested above, something I do anyway if I'm not quite sure what they're doing or if the exact sequence of events matters. Then if they do it, that's on them.

Jarawara
2013-04-30, 08:47 PM
Regarding Wolves in Graveyards:

Yeah, I don't want to pile on, but assuming you had an adventure in the graveyard planned, one of the PC's visiting the graveyard is roleplaying gold that you should not squander! Instead of having the townsfolk going "oh woe is us, there is some evil in the graveyard, yada yada, can you help us"... instead you have a PC paladin going to the graveyard on his own, finding the source of the evil himself (and barely surviving it), and then hightailing it back to the party to warn them of the danger. Cue the party gearing up and marching out to the graveyard to save the town *by their own choices and actions*, instead of the usual "can you help us" speech.

As I said, that's roleplaying gold, makes the players feel like they uncovered one of your hidden secrets, makes the players feel like they are controlling the action and deciding the course of the adventure, makes the players feel like they have full choice of their actions, etc, etc, etc.

*~*~*

Of course.... if the wolves appear and chase the paladin out... and the paladin instead decides to stand and fight the evil *alone*, without his party to assist him -- *then* is when you trot out the line: "Are you sure?"

Slipperychicken
2013-04-30, 09:14 PM
"Are you sure" is supposed to be a warning! From a kind DM!

This.

When the DM starts using that phrase to screw with my head, my default response to it becomes "yes", and act as though he never used the phrase in the first place. I'm not playing that game.

Friv
2013-04-30, 10:29 PM
I can't even run my game without messing with players minds with this phrase...

The best part is they can't tell if I'm doing it to mess them up or make them actually consider something.

Is that really the best part? Or is it the most depressing thing that I've heard today?

(I'll give you a hint; I'm pre-emptively not accepting any invitations to your games.)

Mr Beer
2013-04-30, 10:49 PM
(I'll give you a hint; I'm pre-emptively not accepting any invitations to your games.)

But are you sure?

Slipperychicken
2013-04-30, 11:02 PM
The most effective (and kind) variants of the phrase include a hint as to why it's a bad idea. Usually as information and connections which would be glaringly obvious to the character, but isn't so obvious to a person simply talking through his actions. I feel like that's a fair extension of the DM's role as the players' eyes and ears in the game world. Of course, if it's something which the character could reasonably have forgotten, or slipped up with, then simply rolling with it can be acceptable.

Are you sure you want to run into the trap which almost broke your spine six seconds ago?

Are you sure you want to cast a spell in his threatened area without casting defensively?

Are you sure you want to equip the necklace, which you know is cursed to choke people?

Are you sure you want to place the Portable Hole inside the Bag of Holding?

Other variants include Intelligence/Wisdom checks to realize that something is a bad idea.

Balldanor
2013-04-30, 11:26 PM
No offense, but this sounds rather railroady to me. The Paladin was following an action that makes sense for his character and didn't hurt the story in any way; he just wanted to pray. You could have let him have his 5 minutes to develop his character's spiritual side, then have him rejoin the rest of the party. Suddenly having wolves jump out of no where is... questionable.

At the very least, if you already had a graveyard adventure planned out, you should have had the Paladin roll Spot and Listen checks. Wolves and Wargs don't suddenly pop out of nowhere, and almost murdering a player for a single bad roll for attempting to develop a character sounds rather... unenjoyable.


To clarify, the encounter was supposed to start in the graveyard when the PC's walked in.. I gave him his spot and listen checks to see them and he failed them (miserably, I might add). It was part of the entire plan and I gave him chances to change his actions.

Furthermore, it wasn't a single bad roll, it was 5 bad rolls (spot, listen, opposed strength checks against wolves to avoid being tripped). Plus, he got himself trapped against a fence surrounded by the wolves. On top of everything else, I actually fudged a damage roll as well as how quickly the group got back so he would have a way to survive. I didn't do it to railroad the guy, I was following the guidelines set up by the pre-made encounter and following the rolls that followed.

(Plus, I misunderstood the AoO being able to re-trip him before he stood up, so I let him stand up while only taking damage, not getting retripped)

Fighter1000
2013-04-30, 11:54 PM
I don't hardly ever ask my players, "Are you sure?"
I just let them do it, and let them deal with the consequences.
It's much more realistic and helps with the suspension of disbelief when the players say they are doing something without the GM holding their hand and saying, "Are you sure you want to do that?"
Screw the PCs. If their PC dies, they can just make a new one. No big deal.
The GM, just like the real-life universe, should be indifferent, and impartial. So then, why try to save the players? When they can die, and come up with much more interesting, and much more importantly, NEW characters?
Bring on the death, I say.

Mr Beer
2013-05-01, 12:33 AM
Screw the PCs. If their PC dies, they can just make a new one. No big deal.
The GM, just like the real-life universe, should be indifferent, and impartial.

LOL, because the D&D fantasy universe is such a "real life" universe.

As far as I'm concerned, the characters are heroes creating a narrative, now if they want to continually do stupid things or if they get unlucky, well so be it. There's no need to make some cruel and pointless mirror of the real world though, at least in any sort of epic setting, as it isn't the real world.

Cerlis
2013-05-01, 12:41 AM
Big difference between.

Are you sure?! :smalleek:

Are you sure.......?:smallconfused:

Are you sure?:smallwink:

......You sure? :smallannoyed:

:smallamused:Are you sure?

and

Are you sure?

TuggyNE
2013-05-01, 12:44 AM
The GM, just like the real-life universe, should be indifferent, and impartial.

Any particular reason for anti-escapism? Making a flawless imitation of real life is pretty pointless, since we already have one of those, and "bad things happen to you for reasons that are never revealed, or at least not for a long time" is one of the most annoying phenomena in real life that a lot of people would like to get rid of.

shadow_archmagi
2013-05-01, 01:16 AM
The GM, just like the real-life universe, should be indifferent, and impartial. So then, why try to save the players? .

Unfortunately, the GM is not the universe. The universe possesses much, much more information than the GM can possibly give or simulate. I can say "Everyone in the room seems nervous" but in the real world there are more than nineteen different flavours of nervous, and describing the precise body language and verbal tics and variations in the way clothing is worn which would differentiate between them would take more time and effort and observation than I, as GM, can give.

So when the Paladin pulls a sword I have to say "Are you sure?" because I had imagined them as being fighty-desperate nervous, but apparently the player imagined them as worried-submissive nervous, and I need to nudge him away from a course of action that as a player he couldn't have known was wrong, but his Paladin would almost certainly have been able to predict the consequences of. I could have said that they were fighty-desperate nervous to begin with, but that would've added extra words to the description and slowed the game down, and I wasn't planning on the nervousness being anything more than a part of the atmosphere.

Pickford
2013-05-01, 01:28 AM
"Are you sure" is GM for "yeah, you don't want to do that".

I only use it for when the character is doing something silly that will get the whole party slaughtered and/or captured e.g. "The rich, famous merchant mildly rebukes me!? I hack off his head!".

Generally I just gently clarify what the player said as suggested above, something I do anyway if I'm not quite sure what they're doing or if the exact sequence of events matters. Then if they do it, that's on them.

I hear this phrase and it makes me want to do the action more than anything. (i.e. damn the torpedoes, give me ramming speed!)

Alaris
2013-05-01, 01:40 AM
Is that really the best part? Or is it the most depressing thing that I've heard today?

(I'll give you a hint; I'm pre-emptively not accepting any invitations to your games.)

It's not that bad in all honesty. I've played in most of his games, and him saying "Are you sure" simply makes me re-evaluate the situation, regardless of if he was joking or not.

For the record, if it is a really stupid decision I'm about to make, he DOES make it clear that I should rethink it. "Are you sure?" "Are you ABSOLUTELY sure?"

Trinoya
2013-05-01, 02:23 AM
It's not that bad in all honesty. I've played in most of his games, and him saying "Are you sure" simply makes me re-evaluate the situation, regardless of if he was joking or not.

For the record, if it is a really stupid decision I'm about to make, he DOES make it clear that I should rethink it. "Are you sure?" "Are you ABSOLUTELY sure?"

Oh, no need to defend me to faceless entities on the internet who have broken sarcasm meters.

As for your 'kind dm' stuff. I tried that. It failed. For some strange reason when I try to ACTUALLY warn you guys you walk forward and derp :P

It has been so much easier to just say 'are you sure...'

Then again, this is dealing with a group that disbelieves the very trees out of paranoia so messing with your guys heads happens far more often by accident than on purpose ^_^

Badgerish
2013-05-01, 04:15 AM
As a GM:
With newbs or when I assume that the requested action is based on a faulty assumption of the game/map I say:
"Are you sure you want to move into the fire/off the ledge?" or "are you sure you want to cast a spell there, it will provoke an OA?" or "are you sure you want to attack them? they haven't done anything yet"

If I just want to prompt a second thought or more clarification then I just say "are you sure?"

As a player:
I often respond to "are you sure?" with "what will happen if I...?" or "what do I expect to happen if I...?"

Telok
2013-05-01, 06:50 AM
Here's one for you.
Last year I converted an old freeware CRPG to D&D 3.5. This was really easy because it had been based on an actual 1e AD&D game the author had played in the late '80s or around that time. Plus the last time I had DMed a D&D game had been for AD&D. I had to nerf flying and teleportation magic for the setting to work, they aren't impossible just very dangerous for long distance travel.

In the setting there's this bottomless underground chasm that separates the main kingdom from the caves where they exile thier criminals and I needed to prevent almost all trasnport across except by this one bridge fort where there are important plot things. So I wrote down "in chasm = negative plane rift + chorus of banshees." In AD&D banshees were dangerous 9HD undead, when I finally got to looking at the stats for 3.5 banshees I saw 26HD life seeking MIRV neutron bombs. I figured this was OK and just added warning signs, NPCs to give warnings, and guards whose duty it was to warn people.

When the party went towards the bridge the NPCs expressed reservations about "the screamers" and told the PCs about the rift and horrible kill-everything undead. The guards asked if the PCs understood the rules for crossing the bridge. The sign at the bridge said "Dim all lights and make no loud noises or you will die."

The sorcerer has a fire templated hippogriff as a familiar. This thing burns with 60' bright light and flies around above the party.

The only nod they made towards stealth was to have the familiar drink a potion of Hide from Undead. Which offers a save. A DC 11 Will save.

I looked at the spell and asked if that was all they were doing. Yes.

I asked for the MM2, because I never expected them to be that stupid and fight these so I never copied down the banshee stats into my notes.

Then I said "Are you sure?"

Only half the party died and everyone who just ran away was unharmed (a ranger and the NPCs). All the other survivors are suffering permanent stat loss from seeing just one banshee, which they didn't even kill.

DigoDragon
2013-05-01, 06:53 AM
If I'm the DM and I ask "Are you sure?", it usualy means that I won't be pulling any punches if their crazy idea backfires and hurts them. :smallbiggrin:

One of the more defining moments of this was when the chaotic aligned members of the party attempted to smoke out a witch from a house by sealing the chimney while she was cooking what amounted to crystal meth.
And then when she still didn't come out (the witch had a necklace of adaptation) the rogue went in with a lit torch.

"Are you sure?"

Well... he survived what happened next. Most of him anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Deophaun
2013-05-01, 07:27 AM
To clarify, the encounter was supposed to start in the graveyard when the PC's walked in..
That's nice. Now, where was the NPC warning him? Where were the obvious signs of neglect around the cemetery that showed people don't come here anymore? Where was the mauled carcass from their last kill? If you weren't going to give him any warning at all, then why did the wolves and the worg have to be there at that point? Why couldn't they have been chasing a deer?

I gave him his spot and listen checks to see them and he failed them (miserably, I might add).
And which of these is on the Paladin's skill list? I can't possibly imagine the cause for such miserable failure.

It was part of the entire plan and I gave him chances to change his actions.
But did you give him reasons to change his actions? Apparently not. The only thing you said was "Are you sure?"

"Yeah, why wouldn't I be?"

Furthermore, it wasn't a single bad roll, it was 5 bad rolls (spot, listen, opposed strength checks against wolves to avoid being tripped).
Are you saying that a single success against any of the three trip attempts would have prevented him from being tripped outright? I don't think so. This isn't that he had five chances to save himself. He had, at best, three, with the deck stacked against him in the first two, and the third built to give only the illusion of hope.

I didn't do it to railroad the guy, I was following the guidelines set up by the pre-made encounter and following the rolls that followed.
And I just stole from the party and killed the ranger's animal companion because that's what my character would do.

See the party I bolded? Focus on that.

Friv
2013-05-01, 08:39 AM
Oh, no need to defend me to faceless entities on the internet who have broken sarcasm meters.

Hey, I don't know you. I can only run with the information that you give me, and the information that you gave me was "I like to take actions that cause my players to double-think courses of action, not based on whether I actually think they're overlooking important information, but on whether I think it's funny."

Which, yeah, was a pretty depressing thought.

Balldanor
2013-05-01, 09:51 AM
That's nice. Now, where was the NPC warning him? Where were the obvious signs of neglect around the cemetery that showed people don't come here anymore? Where was the mauled carcass from their last kill? If you weren't going to give him any warning at all, then why did the wolves and the worg have to be there at that point? Why couldn't they have been chasing a deer?

And which of these is on the Paladin's skill list? I can't possibly imagine the cause for such miserable failure.

But did you give him reasons to change his actions? Apparently not. The only thing you said was "Are you sure?"

"Yeah, why wouldn't I be?"

Are you saying that a single success against any of the three trip attempts would have prevented him from being tripped outright? I don't think so. This isn't that he had five chances to save himself. He had, at best, three, with the deck stacked against him in the first two, and the third built to give only the illusion of hope.

And I just stole from the party and killed the ranger's animal companion because that's what my character would do.

See the party I bolded? Focus on that.

I understand why you are pointing these things out, but I haven't been DMing for 10 years; this was my first pre-made encounter, and 3rd session DMing overall. I'm still pretty inexperienced, which is part of the reason why I come to these forums. Overall, I'm more rules oriented than creativity oriented as my natural personality, so I don't always come up with the RPing opportunities that other people see naturally. Also, all of the encounters I've played up to this point (pretty much) have been combat oriented rather than RP-oriented. Have I made some mistakes, probably. Was that the best way to handle that encounter? Probably not. However, my intention was not to screw anyone over;

Besides, that's part of the reason why I'm making my own encounters now rather than using pre-made.. I feel it gives more flexibility.

shadow_archmagi
2013-05-01, 09:58 AM
I understand why you are pointing these things out, but I haven't been DMing for 10 years; this was my first pre-made encounter, and 3rd session DMing overall. I'm still pretty inexperienced, which is part of the reason why I come to these forums. Overall, I'm more rules oriented than creativity oriented as my natural personality, so I don't always come up with the RPing opportunities that other people see naturally. Also, all of the encounters I've played up to this point (pretty much) have been combat oriented rather than RP-oriented. Have I made some mistakes, probably. Was that the best way to handle that encounter? Probably not. However, my intention was not to screw anyone over;

Besides, that's part of the reason why I'm making my own encounters now rather than using pre-made.. I feel it gives more flexibility.


Fair enough, and as blunders go, it was handled alright, since the character didn't suffer long-term for it. My party still talks about the ending to my first campaign, wherein after saving the realm by singlehandedly fighting off an undead army the king had them executed.

That was... uh... that was an interesting narrative choice on the part of my younger self.

Jay R
2013-05-01, 11:19 AM
It's worth remembering that the PC sees things that the DM is only describing to the player. It's quite common that the player's idea of a situation is not the same as the character's would be, since the character would see it.

When the player says that he does something that I know the PC would see was impossible, My first assumption is that I have failed to describe the situation completely.

DM: The kobolds flee across the chasm, on a plank of wood across it.
PC: I chase them across the plank to the other side.
DM: Are you sure? They went one at a time. It doesn't look strong enough to support a fully armored man.

...

DM: There are two arbalests in the room.
PC: I attack the arbalests.
DM: Are you sure? An arbalest is a powerful crossbow.

The crucial thing to realize about the famous gazebo incident is that it was bad DMing. Once it was clear that the player didn't know what a gazebo was, the DM should have described it, so the player actually knew what his character saw.

TinyHippo
2013-05-01, 11:25 AM
I try to only do that when (as others have noted) I feel that the player is acting on faulty information. If they're doing something stupid because they want to do something stupid, that's their choice. If they're doing something stupid because I haven't given them enough information to know it's stupid, that's my fault.

Trinoya
2013-05-01, 11:48 AM
Hey, I don't know you. I can only run with the information that you give me, and the information that you gave me was "I like to take actions that cause my players to double-think courses of action, not based on whether I actually think they're overlooking important information, but on whether I think it's funny."

Which, yeah, was a pretty depressing thought.

Which has not changed how I 'don't know you' and therefore still feel that my players don't need to defend me against you. You're entitled entirely to your opinion, and honestly I couldn't care less about it. This is the internet after all.


It's worth remembering that the PC sees things that the DM is only describing to the player. It's quite common that the player's idea of a situation is not the same as the character's would be, since the character would see it.

When the player says that he does something that I know the PC would see was impossible, My first assumption is that I have failed to describe the situation completely.

DM: The kobolds flee across the chasm, on a plank of wood across it.
PC: I chase them across the plank to the other side.
DM: Are you sure? They went one at a time. It doesn't look strong enough to support a fully armored man.

...

DM: There are two arbalests in the room.
PC: I attack the arbalests.
DM: Are you sure? An arbalest is a powerful crossbow.

The crucial thing to realize about the famous gazebo incident is that it was bad DMing. Once it was clear that the player didn't know what a gazebo was, the DM should have described it, so the player actually knew what his character saw.

This requires someone to reiterate the point: Always remember to describe things in detail to your players for EXACTLY the reasons shown here. Good stuff to remember.

Friv
2013-05-01, 12:06 PM
Which has not changed how I 'don't know you' and therefore still feel that my players don't need to defend me against you. You're entitled entirely to your opinion, and honestly I couldn't care less about it. This is the internet after all.

Maybe, but I don't know you either!

So having one of your players speak for you means quite a bit to me.

Geordnet
2013-05-01, 12:45 PM
I can't even run my game without messing with players minds with this phrase...

The best part is they can't tell if I'm doing it to mess them up or make them actually consider something.

"We are going to the high inquisitor this instant to tell him!"
"are you sure?"
"err.."

"I drop the bomb over the side of the ship"
"Are you sure?"

It's like a magic phrase that brings all the joy to the table... and then to me. >=)

I hear this phrase and it makes me want to do the action more than anything. (i.e. damn the torpedoes, give me ramming speed!)

I just don't understand either of you. :smallconfused:

Remind me not to play with Trinoya as GM or Pickford as a Player. :smallyuk:

Wookieetank
2013-05-01, 01:01 PM
In most of my groups we use the DM going into a BSOD (Blue Screen of Death) as an "Are you sure?" moment, becuase usually our BAD ideas are either plot breaking or world destroying.:smallamused: Otherwise we just go with it, if you think your character would do something, do it and deal with the consequences. But then we play a much lighter hearted and rule of cool/rule of funny style of PnP roleplaying (blind wizard slinging around invisible fireballs sort of things :smallbiggrin:).

Trinoya
2013-05-01, 01:31 PM
Maybe, but I don't know you either!

So having one of your players speak for you means quite a bit to me.

I can not fault your logic here... you win this round friv, you win this round... :smallmad:

However; are you sure you want to take his word for it? :smallbiggrin:



I just don't understand either of you. :smallconfused:

Remind me not to play with Trinoya as GM or Pickford as a Player. :smallyuk:

Crap, you're onto both of us now! Abort op! Abort op! :smalleek:

Wookieetank
2013-05-01, 02:35 PM
I can not fault your logic here... you win this round friv, you win this round... :smallmad:

However; are you sure you want to take his word for it? :smallbiggrin:




Crap, you're onto both of us now! Abort op! Abort op! :smalleek:

Are you sure? :smallwink::smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Toofey
2013-05-01, 04:02 PM
My players are seemingly never deterred when I hit them with the "are you sure" line.

Once leading to a TPK that the player of the character who led the party into it got pissed about in spite of me both, in his divination telling him he was badly outmatched, and having given him the "are you sure" when he said yes, got up, blah blah, got a drink came back and asked again.

I ended up resetting to the TPK being a vision sent by the character's god in response to the divination (I put them back there in time)

Slipperychicken
2013-05-01, 04:44 PM
Once leading to a TPK that the player of the character who led the party into it got pissed about in spite of me both, in his divination telling him he was badly outmatched, and having given him the "are you sure" when he said yes, got up, blah blah, got a drink came back and asked again.


That's a different problem entirely. In a game where the PCs' players expect them to be heroes who overcome the odds and defy destiny blah blah Big Damn Heroes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigDamnHeroes) blah, hearing that an enemy is too powerful will act as encouragement: the bigger the threat, the more awesome the PCs look when they defeat it, right?

It's extremely difficult to communicate whether the PCs are supposed to fight or flee, when the only channel of communication is scared-looking weaker NPCs telling them they can't.

Trinoya
2013-05-01, 04:45 PM
Are you sure? :smallwink::smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Disbelieve op! Disbelieve op!:smalleek:

Vknight
2013-05-01, 06:36 PM
Me: Do you attack the ancient wizard
Player: Yes
Me: Are you sure?
Player: Yes
Me: You know he has a reputation a good one with your employer
Player: I got a *whatever*
Me: Ok well your attack misses. He casts
Player after his character would be damaged severely, or dead: I was joking...

He did that so many times the one time he attacked a farmer and was so proud for killing him. The town wouldn't help them after he did that and the next session he wanted a redo

Geordnet
2013-05-01, 07:46 PM
Me: Do you attack the ancient wizard
Player: Yes
Me: Are you sure?
Player: Yes
Me: You know he has a reputation a good one with your employer
Player: I got a *whatever*
Me: Ok well your attack misses. He casts
Player after his character would be damaged severely, or dead: I was joking...

He did that so many times the one time he attacked a farmer and was so proud for killing him. The town wouldn't help them after he did that and the next session he wanted a redo

That player deserves whatever he gets, methinks... :smallsigh:

Dr.Epic
2013-05-01, 07:55 PM
I always ask my plays that, then, even when there isn't anything, say in a very disappointed voice "Okay, if that's really what you want to do." And when they ask why I respond with "Oh, nothing, don't worry about it. Nothing now anyway." Just to scare/annoy the crap out of them.:smallwink:

jedipilot24
2013-05-01, 08:43 PM
The DM in my group usually asks this question if we're about to do something that's a really bad idea. Other times he'll tell us "Roll for stupid" and then, unless we roll a natural one, he'll just straight out tell us what we're doing wrong. That being said, he also usually finds a way to roll with us being stupid or crazy and often these moments are the most hilarious.

One time the dwarf fighter had to create a diversion so that the rest of the (much more stealthy) party could sneak into a building. He decided to throw a mug at a random stranger under a cloak. The DM said "You're sure you want to do this?"
"Aye, I throw the mug at him!" (the dwarf speaks with a faux Scottish accent.)
The stranger turns out to be...one of local constables. And a much higher level character.

So...yeah, we never went back to that town again.

Mr Beer
2013-05-01, 08:44 PM
Me: Do you attack the ancient wizard
Player: Yes
Me: Are you sure?
Player: Yes
Me: You know he has a reputation a good one with your employer
Player: I got a *whatever*
Me: Ok well your attack misses. He casts
Player after his character would be damaged severely, or dead: I was joking...

GM: ...too late. You take the damage.

OverdrivePrime
2013-05-01, 08:54 PM
I do my best to not interfere with my player's decisions for their characters, but I also try to make sure that everyone is very clear about what's going on in the scene - what they're up against and what the environment is like.

Still... I'm fairly transparent. The players who've been gaming with me for 15-20 years know to look for my involuntarily-arched eyebrow as a sign they're about to do something incredibly dumb. And if I'm trying to keep from laughing, it's definitely time to rethink the previous plan.

For new players, I will occasionally step in and repeat details about the scene and ask if they're certain about a risky course of action, while explaining a bit of the risks involved.

Traab
2013-05-01, 08:57 PM
That's nice. Now, where was the NPC warning him? Where were the obvious signs of neglect around the cemetery that showed people don't come here anymore? Where was the mauled carcass from their last kill? If you weren't going to give him any warning at all, then why did the wolves and the worg have to be there at that point? Why couldn't they have been chasing a deer?

And which of these is on the Paladin's skill list? I can't possibly imagine the cause for such miserable failure.

But did you give him reasons to change his actions? Apparently not. The only thing you said was "Are you sure?"

"Yeah, why wouldn't I be?"

Are you saying that a single success against any of the three trip attempts would have prevented him from being tripped outright? I don't think so. This isn't that he had five chances to save himself. He had, at best, three, with the deck stacked against him in the first two, and the third built to give only the illusion of hope.

And I just stole from the party and killed the ranger's animal companion because that's what my character would do.

See the party I bolded? Focus on that.


The problem here is, thats nothing more than railroading him away from the location. You cant have it both ways. Either he can make a choice on the information his character can get on his own, or the dm has to basically hand hold him till he gets right back on the tracks. Having him do spot and listen checks is just about the only other way he could have legitimately warned him that something was up outside of asking, "Are you sure?" A smart player would think to himself, "Hmm, the dm has asked me several times if I am sure about my plan, he has had me roll several checks to see if anything worth noticing is nearby, and I am all alone. Maybe this isnt the best idea!"

Honestly, the only way it could have been more clear that this was a bad idea would be for the dm to go, "Look, carl. I tried to be subtle, now I will be blunt. You go to that graveyard and you will be fighting against a small group of monsters that will murder you so hard you will die from it. Dont go there. For the love of all that is good, dont go there until the group can join you. Oh look, a 75 foot tall and thick cube of adamantite just fell from the sky and blocked the only passage to the graveyard. MAYBE YOU SHOULD TURN AROUND NOW!!!"

Balldanor
2013-05-01, 09:06 PM
Also, just to wrap up my situation, the immediate mission called for them to go to the town. They were on the way into the town to get the information about the issues in the graveyard when he decided to split off. The gate to the graveyard was only partway open (which, to me, would give the impression that something wasn't right in the enclosure).

Finally, the ONLY reason I didn't kill him off (due to the rolls, not due to malicious intent), was because he was a new player to the system, new to our game, and it was MAYBE 20 minutes into that first session.. I didn't have the heart to do that to the guy lol

Geordnet
2013-05-01, 10:04 PM
I always ask my plays that, then, even when there isn't anything, say in a very disappointed voice "Okay, if that's really what you want to do." And when they ask why I respond with "Oh, nothing, don't worry about it. Nothing now anyway." Just to scare/annoy the crap out of them.:smallwink:

Remind me not to be one of your players, either... :smallsigh:

TuggyNE
2013-05-02, 12:38 AM
The gate to the graveyard was only partway open (which, to me, would give the impression that something wasn't right in the enclosure).

Under the law of conservation of detail, yes, perhaps. It might also mean someone was just in there a little while ago, or that the caretaker doesn't do his job very well.

Without metagaming in that way it means nothing at all; there are a hundred reasons a gate might be partly open, and second-to-last on the list is "there are secretly wolves and wargs inside! roll initiative." (Last is of course "there are secretly demons inside! roll initiative.")

Toofey
2013-05-02, 12:44 AM
That's a different problem entirely. In a game where the PCs' players expect them to be heroes who overcome the odds and defy destiny blah blah Big Damn Heroes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigDamnHeroes) blah, hearing that an enemy is too powerful will act as encouragement: the bigger the threat, the more awesome the PCs look when they defeat it, right?

It's extremely difficult to communicate whether the PCs are supposed to fight or flee, when the only channel of communication is scared-looking weaker NPCs telling them they can't.

Their god telling them point blank they're outmatched isn't a scared looking NPC. I agree that it's a matter of player expectation. It always amuses me. I typically have a set of steps I go through if the players are embarking on a very dangerous course of action, or the plot calls for a fight where everyone could TPK for a legit reason.

a fight or 2 ahead of time I check around to make sure people are cool with their characters being killed: in my group they always say they are, but never are.

If I think there's a chance of TPK/loss of gear, or know I am going to disjoin them I'll mention the utility of keeping backup equipment the session before. similarly they never seem to do this either.

Then, if they get killed, I point these things out, at this point I also point out that I have done this repeatedly, and this should stop surprising them.


That said If i never killed them they wouldn't feel like they won when they did. They've won some real nailbiters, and even when they've lost given some time to get over being upset they've agreed that it's a better story for it.


Me: Do you attack the ancient wizard


That's your mistake right there, my guys want to attack someone who has them outgunned, I'll let them after giving them an "are you sure" but I never ask "do you attack" unless I'm looking for a yes reply.

Cerlis
2013-05-02, 01:07 AM
Remind me not to play with Trinoya as GM or Pickford as a Player. :smallyuk:

Me either....

Obviously if you are going to ram someone you fire your torpedos at the same time (at impact) :smallsigh:

You should know better :smallwink:

Trinoya
2013-05-02, 03:34 AM
Me either....

Obviously if you are going to ram someone you fire your torpedos at the same time (at impact) :smallsigh:

You should know better :smallwink:

After a statement such as that I not only have no doubt that you'd fit in with all my players, but you'd be the most successful one, out living all the rest. :smallcool:

tommhans
2013-05-02, 06:00 AM
I guess "Are you sure" happens all the time.
When i was PC , one in the group decided to run into a room, the DM started smiling and said " are you sure" he said yes. He almost died of all the traps he triggered :P

Another time me and another dude decided to catapult into a castle, the dm again said are you sure? my character broke his leg but i was still fighting, killed the main bad guy by forcing him towards me in a tower, crawling out a tower and thenfire breathing on all the liquid and oil that was stored in there.

But ye now im DM, and the players do what they want but i have told them a giant invasion is on the clock, and they did this awesome magic show but i did tell them are you sure you want to do this? a main city got burned down and alot of people because of they were held this magic show. Some poor bastards got raped by giants :/ There was only one that actually said "guys maybe its not so smart to do this" .

But yeah im glad they did, was an amazing show :p

I guess are you sure can be used for several things, i ususally do it when its ridicolously stupid decisions :)

Mastikator
2013-05-02, 06:33 AM
Me: You can barely see the lone wolf in the darkness.
Player: I shoot it.
Me: You hit it, it seems to take severe damage, it starts running away.
Player: I run after it.
Me: You run after the lone wolf into the dark night?
Player: ...no I remain with my group.

When I DM I think players deserve a good death.

Lorsa
2013-05-02, 06:49 AM
This requires someone to reiterate the point: Always remember to describe things in detail to your players for EXACTLY the reasons shown here. Good stuff to remember.

It's impossible to explain everything in minute detail all the time. It would be unnecessary and slow down the play (and sometimes your real life time constraints puts pressure on your long detailed descriptions). Flow is just as important as description, so sometimes the players will base their actions on faulty or not complete information. That's when you tell them more details and ask if they want to reconsider. Also, quite often in the heat of battle people miss things because the brain sorts out information that isn't necessary when a big orc has an axe up your face.

Deophaun
2013-05-02, 07:27 AM
The problem here is, thats nothing more than railroading him away from the location.
Please quote, exactly, anything I said that was railroading. Me thinks you are confused as to what the term means.

Either he can make a choice on the information his character can get on his own
How odd that of the four options I gave, three were exercises in giving the character varying levels of information. It's almost like I wanted the character to decide on a course of action based on the information the character had.


Having him do spot and listen checks is just about the only other way he could have legitimately warned him that something was up outside of asking, "Are you sure?"
Again, I think you are confused on the meaning of the word "legitimate." There is a reason that many DMs make spot and listen checks in secret, and that many rules systems encourage that secrecy. It's because knowing that you had to make a spot or listen check is metagame knowledge. It is most certainly illegitimate for a character to make decisions using knowledge it does not have ("I rolled a 4!).

Amnestic
2013-05-02, 09:48 AM
"Oh look, a 75 foot tall and thick cube of adamantite just fell from the sky and blocked the only passage to the graveyard. MAYBE YOU SHOULD TURN AROUND NOW!!!"

'Carl': "Well duh. We gotta go sell this Adamantite now. A cube this size would be worth thousands upon thousands of gold!"

Traab
2013-05-02, 10:24 AM
'Carl': "Well duh. We gotta go sell this Adamantite now. A cube this size would be worth thousands upon thousands of gold!"

And then he gets back to his group ready to sell it.

Shopkeep:" Sorry, that stuff aint worth nothing around these parts, that garbage falls from the sky here! Its just as well though, that graveyard has had all sorts of strange and scary things happening there, you might have been killed!"

Vknight
2013-05-02, 10:56 AM
GM: ...too late. You take the damage.

Exactly. And he would moan and complain, and whine about how that wasn't fair. He left the group cause I was picking on him for this...

Here is I think the best one of those(I was GM)
Me: You approach up to the ruins at the center of the island. Massive pillars stand in smaller and smaller circles leading inwards. The moment you step past the biting winds, and driving snow stops. The old man Raxeir points you to a massive pillar at the center of the ancient ruins.
There stands your prize 'He Whose Name Is Lost' and those that follow his teachings.
(To explain. The party were stuck on a frozen wasteland until they did this. With 5 different gangs/tribes on it. And a cult to 'HWNL', they were to find his cult and get information on it. The back-story to 'HWNL' being he learned how to create & shape things, so he was stripped bare of skin and thrown to the biting winds to die)

So they approach find a frozen corpse tied to a stack frozen in laughter.
What does that player decide to do? Steal the jewels stuck to the corpse.
(If you have played Skyrim you know who the Greybeards are. These guys were like that[I had yet to play Skyrim in irony] and there were 20 of them. One of which was that players characters father)

So after he has a 20 man cult staring him down. What is his next move? The rest of the party grovels. He charges.
He gets wrapped in chains. At this point the player is upset that they have this mysterious chain ability.
Gets more upset when they tie him to a pillar to spend the night without rest. Gets more upset when he can't push them around.
Next day tries it again this time his dad starts kicking his &^8$&%5.
They were sent there because of his connection to the cult leader...
Now they are told to leave.
The rest of the party has a bit more information that this cult does have magical capability but they could not confirm it was what they were looking for. They also learned that there employer does not pay the full amount if they mess up the job. So the guy tried to attack his employer, on the mans ship, with his crew.

Gm[Me]: Are you sure you want to attempt to steal the sword?
E: Yes
Gm: Your not good at pick-pocketing being a Warlock
E: I got to get that sword
Gm: He did beat you up in a solo fight without the aid of the sword
She rolled and failed and was now in trouble, facing off against a guy who beat her in single combat but now had a artifact level weapon. She wanted it back

I have several other times such as when they decided in a airship to ram a Blue Dragon

Slipperychicken
2013-05-02, 12:09 PM
Here is I think the best one of those(I was GM)
Me: You approach up to the ruins at the center of the island. Massive pillars stand in smaller and smaller circles leading inwards. The moment you step past the biting winds, and driving snow stops. The old man Raxeir points you to a massive pillar at the center of the ancient ruins.
There stands your prize 'He Whose Name Is Lost' and those that follow his teachings.
(To explain. The party were stuck on a frozen wasteland until they did this. With 5 different gangs/tribes on it. And a cult to 'HWNL', they were to find his cult and get information on it. The back-story to 'HWNL' being he learned how to create & shape things, so he was stripped bare of skin and thrown to the biting winds to die)

So they approach find a frozen corpse tied to a stack frozen in laughter.
What does that player decide to do? Steal the jewels stuck to the corpse.
(If you have played Skyrim you know who the Greybeards are. These guys were like that[I had yet to play Skyrim in irony] and there were 20 of them. One of which was that players characters father)

So after he has a 20 man cult staring him down. What is his next move? The rest of the party grovels. He charges.
He gets wrapped in chains. At this point the player is upset that they have this mysterious chain ability. I gave my NPCs fiat-powers to screw him for not following the plot.
Gets more upset when they tie him to a pillar to spend the night without rest. Gets more upset when he can't push them around.
Next day tries it again this time his dad starts kicking his &^8$&%5.
They were sent there because of his connection to the cult leader...
Now they are told to leave.
The rest of the party has a bit more information that this cult does have magical capability but they could not confirm it was what they were looking for. They also learned that there employer does not pay the full amount if they mess up the job. So the guy tried to attack his employer, on the mans ship, with his crew.


Even I, after repeatedly reading this account, don't know how the player was supposed to expect anything bad from taking the jewels. I get the other stuff, though. Did the chain actually have stats, or did you just say "they move their hands and you're chained up".



I have several other times such as when they decided in a airship to ram a Blue Dragon

This one is stupid, but also awesome.

Geordnet
2013-05-02, 12:53 PM
This one is stupid, but also awesome.

There you have another fine line, because the distance Rule of Cool takes you varies depending on the game and the GM. This is one of those cases where the explanation is needed first.

"That might hurt the dragon, but it might not. Either way your ship will undoubtedly get the worse end of the bargain. Do you proceed?"

Lord Torath
2013-05-02, 01:54 PM
Even I, after repeatedly reading this account, don't know how the player was supposed to expect anything bad from taking the jewels. I get the other stuff, though. Did the chain actually have stats, or did you just say "they move their hands and you're chained up".
Well, would you try to desecrate the altar of <insert your favorite diety's name here> with his High Priest and 19 of his most faithful standing in a circle around you? At the very least, I'd wait until I was alone.

Vknight
2013-05-02, 02:14 PM
Huh oh darn. Forgot this stuff
Well the cult was all around him when he was climbing up the pillar to rip the jewels off the thing they worship... Well they could see him in the middle of the day

The chain thing was one of the cultists. The one with the chain devil ability is named Raxier, the old guy who had demonstrated this ability and had been traveling with them since he found them 2 days into there travels
Part of the reason he got upset was because the NPC was following them he can't use his ability on me.
He did get a roll for the chains but failed.


As for the Blue Dragon one
-You notice in the distance a blue dragon. As the airship approaches you seen the bulk of the beast. The guide shouts to to stay away from Scalabreg a fight with that beast is something he wishes not. You all notice the dragon has a jolly roger painted on its thigh.
*Players immediately say we aim to ram at the Dragon*
-You can make a knowledge check on that. They make the check and get this, Scalabreg is on of the pirate lords, and that is his mount dragon.
*The party in a Airship barely able to hold ten people and supplies continues the charge*
They continues there charge against a guys personal mount who is a pirate lord. Even without that they tried the same tactic on another Dragon and had almost crashed the ship from the added weight of a large sized dragon.
Also they had tried to fight one of those pirate lords and was how they ended up on the island from the earlier tale

Maugan Ra
2013-05-02, 02:24 PM
Basic adventurer survival tip - Never desecrate a corpse. Never desecrate an altar. Never deal with a dragon. And never cross a wizard.

Of course, the first rule of being an adventurer is that all following rules may be disregarded if the money is good enough :smalltongue:

Slipperychicken
2013-05-02, 02:41 PM
Well, would you try to desecrate the altar of <insert your favorite diety's name here> with his High Priest and 19 of his most faithful standing in a circle around you? At the very least, I'd wait until I was alone.

It's just a corpse, they might not mind. Personally, I'd ask general questions about the body (why is he there? who is that? why does he have jewels? etc), then maybe ask if they were going to keep the jewels.

Vknight
2013-05-02, 04:37 PM
It's just a corpse, they might not mind. Personally, I'd ask general questions about the body (why is he there? who is that? why does he have jewels? etc), then maybe ask if they were going to keep the jewels.

'He Whose Name Is Lost'
That was the corpses name. The guy they were following, his teachings, it was his body.
Think on it

Threadnaught
2013-05-02, 07:05 PM
Nearly every time mine make a decision, I ask them this and they still think it's code for "I'm gonna use this against you." Sometimes they think/realize it's code for "That is the stupidest damn idea I've ever heard in my entire life, and I've heard all your other brain-killers." Those rare few times they don't think I'm manipulating them to their dooms, or trying to save them from a humiliatingly painful death at the hands of their own stupid, they take time out and seriously consider their options.

Teaching is fun. :smallamused:

SimonMoon6
2013-05-03, 10:18 AM
Me: Do you attack the ancient wizard
Player: Yes
Me: Are you sure?
Player: Yes
Me: You know he has a reputation a good one with your employer
Player: I got a *whatever*
Me: Ok well your attack misses. He casts
Player after his character would be damaged severely, or dead: I was joking...

He did that so many times the one time he attacked a farmer and was so proud for killing him. The town wouldn't help them after he did that and the next session he wanted a redo

"Load saved game"

Wookieetank
2013-05-03, 12:35 PM
"Load saved game"

I actually had a DM who had a crazed wandering merchant NPC who was able to save our game. I don't think we were ever given a load option, but everytime we ran across him we saved our game for amusement purposes. We actually played more carefully in that campaign than others with that group, for fear of having to go through the same areas/adventures a second time if we ever had to reload.

Geordnet
2013-05-03, 12:37 PM
"Load saved game"

Iron Man. :smallamused:

Vknight
2013-05-03, 06:44 PM
"Load saved game"

Basically any bad decision they made they thought they could skip around, not deal with or out right ignore

Agincourt
2013-05-06, 01:45 PM
The crucial thing to realize about the famous gazebo incident is that it was bad DMing. Once it was clear that the player didn't know what a gazebo was, the DM should have described it, so the player actually knew what his character saw.

Google is failing me. What is the gazebo incident?

Slipperychicken
2013-05-06, 02:06 PM
Google is failing me. What is the gazebo incident?

Type in "Eric and the Gazebo".

ellindsey
2013-05-06, 03:34 PM
Modern-day superhero game I was running many years ago.

The players had managed to learn about a major arms smuggling operation that one of the local criminal groups was conducting that evening. They had actually managed through some good detective work to track down when and where a large batch of explosives and ammunition was being unloaded, and had surrounded and were entering the warehouse where it was taking place without being spotted. One of the characters, an Iron Man-ish armor-suit wearing hero, had just entered the main room of the warehouse.

I described to him the scene - boxes of obvious guns, ammunition, explosives, grenades, etc - being unloaded by a half dozen normal-looking men. I told the player she had managed full surprise and could act first.

She told me that she would use her area-effect electrical blast on the room, to stun all the men without killing them. I asked her if she was sure. She was.

The resulting chain-reaction of explosions amazingly didn't kill any of the PCs, but they didn't end up with any prisoners to interrogate. And the local authorities were not pleased with the resulting body count.

Jay R
2013-05-06, 05:12 PM
Google is failing me. What is the gazebo incident?
Read about it from the original author here (http://web.archive.org/web/20080804140516/http://www.dreadgazebo.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=8).

Cerlis
2013-05-07, 01:04 AM
one problem one needs to avoid is whenever the game goes from "dont do something stupid, and think things through" to... "Guess what the DM has plotted for you".

2 of the Gms i've delt with more than one time (we have a long history of One-shot, never-come-to-again campaigns) seemed to have the attitude of looking down on rash or not completely thought out decisions that any normal person WOULD do.

There have been times when i'm at a loss because its obvious that we need to stay and confront the situation, but nothing seems to be working and I cant read the DM's mind.

Othertimes I HAVE to do something stupid because its what my character would do. Like tell the other werewolves to stand back while i approach the "Big wolf" by myself because i dont know they are werewolves too and think i'm the only one that can "take it" if something bad happens.

....

come to think of it I do that alot. I really probably should stop making my characters with attributes I admire lol

Lorsa
2013-05-07, 03:26 AM
So the MitD is a gazebo? It all makes sense now!

Vknight
2013-05-07, 03:42 AM
So the MitD is a gazebo? It all makes sense now!

That makes perfect sense in all and every way

tommhans
2013-05-07, 06:03 AM
that gazebo story was awesome,atleast when i finally understood what a gazebo what hehe ^^

I wouldve attacked it aswell :D

hewhosaysfish
2013-05-07, 06:21 AM
The gate to the graveyard was only partway open (which, to me, would give the impression that something wasn't right in the enclosure).

But my front gate is standing half-open, that doesn't mean that.... :smalleek:

OH GOD THERE ARE WOLVES IN MY FLAT!

SEND HELP!!!!

Friv
2013-05-07, 09:35 AM
I described to him the scene - boxes of obvious guns, ammunition, explosives, grenades, etc - being unloaded by a half dozen normal-looking men. I told the player she had managed full surprise and could act first.

She told me that she would use her area-effect electrical blast on the room, to stun all the men without killing them. I asked her if she was sure. She was.

The resulting chain-reaction of explosions amazingly didn't kill any of the PCs, but they didn't end up with any prisoners to interrogate. And the local authorities were not pleased with the resulting body count.

In her defense, I as a player would never have assumed that electricity not strong enough to kill people would be capable of setting off stable explosives. I don't think you can set off grenades with a taser.

Lorsa
2013-05-07, 09:42 AM
In her defense, I as a player would never have assumed that electricity not strong enough to kill people would be capable of setting off stable explosives. I don't think you can set off grenades with a taser.

It is quite common that players and GMs have different ideas of the outcome of actions, how physics work etc. A good GM should have a good idea of how the world works and be consistent in implementing cause-and-effect. Sometimes you may need to communicate to players in advance exactly what would come out of an action if they seem to be unsure. The same goes for social situations. Some GMs have a very weird idea of how people / things react and it's a common breaking point for groups.

Wookieetank
2013-05-07, 10:25 AM
But my front gate is standing half-open, that doesn't mean that.... :smalleek:

OH GOD THERE ARE WOLVES IN MY FLAT!

SEND HELP!!!!

This made me chuckle, thank you for that kind gentle being. :smallbiggrin:

ellindsey
2013-05-07, 12:44 PM
In her defense, I as a player would never have assumed that electricity not strong enough to kill people would be capable of setting off stable explosives. I don't think you can set off grenades with a taser.

True, but there were explosives and detonators in the warehouse too. I figured the weapon would set those off, especially as it was bought as an attack capable of causing actual physical damage. It wasn't so much a taser as a directed lightning bolt.

Amnestic
2013-05-07, 02:34 PM
In her defense, I as a player would never have assumed that electricity not strong enough to kill people would be capable of setting off stable explosives. I don't think you can set off grenades with a taser.

It depends - were any of the explosives in clearly marked red barrels? 'cos you can throw a feather at a red barrel and it'll go up in flames.

Vknight
2013-05-07, 04:58 PM
It depends - were any of the explosives in clearly marked red barrels? 'cos you can throw a feather at a red barrel and it'll go up in flames.

You can hit a red barrel with a crowbar and it will go up.
I would be terrified to be in that building

Sith_Happens
2013-05-07, 05:18 PM
In her defense, I as a player would never have assumed that electricity not strong enough to kill people would be capable of setting off stable explosives. I don't think you can set off grenades with a taser.

That's what the blasting caps are for (though why they were keeping the caps attached to the payloads in storage is beyond me).

Vknight
2013-05-07, 05:33 PM
That's what the blasting caps are for (though why they were keeping the caps attached to the payloads in storage is beyond me).

Simple makes shipping faster!
These are super hero villains without a smart boss

turbo164
2013-05-08, 10:56 AM
Under the law of conservation of detail, yes, perhaps. It might also mean someone was just in there a little while ago, or that the caretaker doesn't do his job very well.

Without metagaming in that way it means nothing at all; there are a hundred reasons a gate might be partly open, and second-to-last on the list is "there are secretly wolves and wargs inside! roll initiative." (Last is of course "there are secretly demons inside! roll initiative.")

If demons are last on that list, that means it's more likely to find a Half-Tarrasque Nymph there? :smalleek:

My last "are you sure" moment was more of a laughing "ooohookaaaay"...multiple times in a row.

Backstory: The players have previously seen evidence of a mysterious group known as the "EL" that was experimenting with extremely powerful undead. They reach a town with at least one monster in the sewers, that they later find out was secretly imported by a branch of the EL that has taken over a local "insurance" company. Their investigation leads them to encounter an employee of the pre-merge company, who tells them about the merge, the imports and exports of "growling crates", that several have gone missing, and (here's the key to my "are you sure" moment) tells them that 4 nights from now, the building will be severely undermanned, providing the best opportunity to do something (since they've already determined the City Guard is powerless, and none of the locals seem willing to risk anything either).

Well, in the meantime, the players decide to look for some more escaped animals before they start eating civilians. Kind of what I expected, the Ranger helps track down a Hydra that they kill. Now the unexpected happens.

Players: How much does this thing weigh?
Me: *glances at Monster Manual* about 4000 pounds.
Players: Hmm, my max load is X, plus Y...we could probably stuff the heads in our Bag of Holding...hey, if we were to disembowel the thing, how many pounds would that shave off?
Me: ...*thinks about cows in a slaughterhouse* *rolls some dice* about 800?
Players: Awesome! Allright, we're going to push/drag this thing to the doorstep of that company, to expose their animal trafficking to the public!
Me: "ooohookaaaay" #1.

So they haul it out of the sewers, drag it through town, leaving a trail of blood, sewage, slammed windows and curious/frightened Commoners, and plop it at the front door.

Player [slightly* crazy Cleric of Olidamara] Now I'm going to stand on it and preach, to get the public fired up!
Me: "ooohookaaaay" #2.
Every other player (including the Lawful Good ranger and 18 intel Warforged): I'll help! *Aids Another*
Me: "ooohookaaaay" #3.
So after a nice discussion with the City Guard (who begin cleaning up the street), they head back to the inn for a good night's sleep, in their INDIVIDUAL rooms, with only the Warforged standing guard in the hall.
Me: *smiling, shaking head, rolling a ton of dice to see how the heck this would affect the delivery schedule/rival factions/etc; holy crap, they got some good rolls!*

While the Dwarf had a particularly unpleasant time, what with awaking to a poisoned dagger in the chest at 3am and not waking up again until the fighting was pretty much over...everyone survived. And this Thursday they will hopefully find out the results of those rolls that made me smile, because holy crap, I did not expect them to live through that stunt. I'm happy they did because it was hilarious, but I worry about the precident it set for future lapses in logic :smalleek: At least they gained some good faction with Olidamara for ifwhen they need a divine intervention ^_^



*very.

Jon_Dahl
2013-05-08, 11:03 AM
I'm usually absotely disgusted if the DM tries to manipulate me. However, I don't show him/her that and I keep my thoughts to myself.
I will just ask him "why?". In most cases, the DM will talk me out of it, but I won't be happy with the manipulation. In some cases I just go ahead, simply just to demonstrate that it's my character.

Jay R
2013-05-08, 11:19 AM
I'm usually absotely disgusted if the DM tries to manipulate me.

Offering advice, or suggesting that you reconsider, is not manipulation.

Roderick_BR
2013-05-08, 02:10 PM
In my old group, "are you sure" was more of a code for "come on, I dare you get out of the mess you are about to get yourself into".
Shuffling papers and getting dices ready to roll are goot to increase the tension and make the players pay attention. They almost never backed away.

magwaaf
2013-05-13, 04:44 PM
That probably warranted the PC getting stopped by a random NPC, warning him about the completely unintuitive worg infestation that's been vexing the townfolk by the graveyard, preventing them from paying their respects, rather than an "Are you sure?" Otherwise, it reads like:

Player: I eat breakfast.
DM: Are you sure?
Player: Yes.
DM: Roll initiative as a horde of goblins emerges from your bowl of fruit loops.

i think this guyneeds to work on his dm'ing skill

Water_Bear
2013-05-13, 04:53 PM
I'm usually [absolutely] disgusted if the DM tries to manipulate me. However, I don't show him/her that and I keep my thoughts to myself.
I will just ask him "why?". In most cases, the DM will talk me out of it, but I won't be happy with the manipulation. In some cases I just go ahead, simply just to demonstrate that it's my character.

Um, a little info from the other side of the screen; DM's who ask "Are you sure?" aren't trying to take away your player agency and force you along a railroad plot, they're trying to keep your character alive. "Are you sure?" is the Ctrl-Z of stupid Player decisions; I usually reserve it for situations when PCs forget where whirling blades are and stroll through or threaten heads of state while surrounded by high-level bodyguards.

Out of curiosity, how would you define manipulation? Is there a way for DMs to let Players know they're about to get their PCs killed in a non-manipulative way.

Geordnet
2013-05-14, 04:41 PM
I'm usually absotely disgusted if the DM tries to manipulate me. However, I don't show him/her that and I keep my thoughts to myself.
I will just ask him "why?". In most cases, the DM will talk me out of it, but I won't be happy with the manipulation. In some cases I just go ahead, simply just to demonstrate that it's my character.

You'd rather die over some detail you didn't know or had forgotten? Are you sure? :smalltongue:

Seriously though, unless you've got a very bad GM, asking for confirmation is just a safety precaution. It's there to remind you to double-check your logic before doing something irrevocable. Sometimes you will want to take that desperate, long-shot gamble; but usually the risk is much greater than the reward, and you wouldn't have said "full speed ahead" if you hadn't forgotten about the torpedoes.

Slipperychicken
2013-05-14, 06:02 PM
I'm usually absotely disgusted if the DM tries to manipulate me. However, I don't show him/her that and I keep my thoughts to myself.
I will just ask him "why?". In most cases, the DM will talk me out of it, but I won't be happy with the manipulation. In some cases I just go ahead, simply just to demonstrate that it's my character.

Do you mean when the DM only asks "are you sure?" when he sincerely thinks the action is unwise, or when he does it to psych you out/throw you off-guard?

In my personal experience, the DM usually accompanies the "are you sure?" with a bit of crucial info that I could have easily missed or forgotten (things like "he's holding a hostage", or "his bodyguards are all around"), so I consider it helpful.

Zeful
2013-05-14, 08:19 PM
I'm usually absotely disgusted if the DM tries to manipulate me. However, I don't show him/her that and I keep my thoughts to myself.
I will just ask him "why?". In most cases, the DM will talk me out of it, but I won't be happy with the manipulation. In some cases I just go ahead, simply just to demonstrate that it's my character.

When I DMd, if I asked you "are you sure?" it was generally the end of a sentence explaining an element of the world I hadn't managed to set up that your character has every reason to know about, or something that had previously occurred to provide context. This is not manipulation, this is not removing your player agency, this is not undermining your character. This is making sure you have all the information before making a critical choice.

Threadnaught
2013-05-15, 08:44 AM
Me: Are you sure you want to take this course of action? There are several other things you could try.
Player: Umm... We'll think about trying something else.
Me: Okay, so final decision, please?
Player: My Wizard hits the demon with a stick.
Me: :smallsigh:
Player: It's a really big stick.
Me: Roll d20.
Player: It's a 1, this game sucks and you're a horrible DM.
Me: :belkar:

I allowed them, entirely through their choice to go after a Demilich before level 10, with Tier 3-4 characters. The amount of times I asked them if they were absolutely sure about it, both in that session before and during the session itself, oh boy. To make it more obvious, I'd have to have outright declared it as a no win situation, I thought the constant hinting was enough.
As soon as it hit the fan, and oh boy what a massive fan it was. I was cackling the whole time struggling to describe how they had angered a god who had sent as much of his army after them as possible. Before taking matters into his own hands and instakilling them. Their fault really, they could have tried developing the plot, but no they wanted to commit suicide. And then the world ended. :smallamused:

Moral of the story, if your DM asks you if you're sure, they're giving you other options that you should at least consider. If your DM constantly asks you if your sure, multiple times about the same action, you should do something else entirely.

Jay R
2013-05-15, 10:02 AM
Moral of the story, if your DM asks you if you're sure, they're giving you other options that you should at least consider. If your DM constantly asks you if your sure, multiple times about the same action, you should do something else entirely.

The DM can help the players past many difficulties. Rampant stupidity is not, alas, on the list.

Slipperychicken
2013-05-15, 04:29 PM
I thought the constant hinting was enough.

It's advice typically reserved for romantic relationships, but is applicable to most human interactions: Hints don't work.

If you want someone to know something, tell him explicitly and in clear terms. Anything else increases the chance for misinterpretation or miscommunication.

Vertharrad
2013-05-15, 07:49 PM
If demons are last on that list, that means it's more likely to find a Half-Tarrasque Nymph there? :smalleek:

My last "are you sure" moment was more of a laughing "ooohookaaaay"...multiple times in a row.

Backstory: The players have previously seen evidence of a mysterious group known as the "EL" that was experimenting with extremely powerful undead. They reach a town with at least one monster in the sewers, that they later find out was secretly imported by a branch of the EL that has taken over a local "insurance" company. Their investigation leads them to encounter an employee of the pre-merge company, who tells them about the merge, the imports and exports of "growling crates", that several have gone missing, and (here's the key to my "are you sure" moment) tells them that 4 nights from now, the building will be severely undermanned, providing the best opportunity to do something (since they've already determined the City Guard is powerless, and none of the locals seem willing to risk anything either).

Well, in the meantime, the players decide to look for some more escaped animals before they start eating civilians. Kind of what I expected, the Ranger helps track down a Hydra that they kill. Now the unexpected happens.

Players: How much does this thing weigh?
Me: *glances at Monster Manual* about 4000 pounds.
Players: Hmm, my max load is X, plus Y...we could probably stuff the heads in our Bag of Holding...hey, if we were to disembowel the thing, how many pounds would that shave off?
Me: ...*thinks about cows in a slaughterhouse* *rolls some dice* about 800?
Players: Awesome! Allright, we're going to push/drag this thing to the doorstep of that company, to expose their animal trafficking to the public!
Me: "ooohookaaaay" #1.

So they haul it out of the sewers, drag it through town, leaving a trail of blood, sewage, slammed windows and curious/frightened Commoners, and plop it at the front door.

Player [slightly* crazy Cleric of Olidamara] Now I'm going to stand on it and preach, to get the public fired up!
Me: "ooohookaaaay" #2.
Every other player (including the Lawful Good ranger and 18 intel Warforged): I'll help! *Aids Another*
Me: "ooohookaaaay" #3.
So after a nice discussion with the City Guard (who begin cleaning up the street), they head back to the inn for a good night's sleep, in their INDIVIDUAL rooms, with only the Warforged standing guard in the hall.
Me: *smiling, shaking head, rolling a ton of dice to see how the heck this would affect the delivery schedule/rival factions/etc; holy crap, they got some good rolls!*

While the Dwarf had a particularly unpleasant time, what with awaking to a poisoned dagger in the chest at 3am and not waking up again until the fighting was pretty much over...everyone survived. And this Thursday they will hopefully find out the results of those rolls that made me smile, because holy crap, I did not expect them to live through that stunt. I'm happy they did because it was hilarious, but I worry about the precident it set for future lapses in logic :smalleek: At least they gained some good faction with Olidamara for ifwhen they need a divine intervention ^_^



*very.

I didn't see Are you sure in there and ooohookaaaay can mean a few things. Don't take this as critical criticism but your Are you sure moment was pretty vague.

Threadnaught
2013-05-15, 08:08 PM
It's advice typically reserved for romantic relationships, but is applicable to most human interactions: Hints don't work.

If you want someone to know something, tell him explicitly and in clear terms. Anything else increases the chance for misinterpretation or miscommunication.

Well I did ask through a few NPCs "do you seriously want to go that far into his lair? He will kill you if he finds you, and if you're going after something he's keeping sealed away, he will find you."

Also he kept a living weapon sealed away after he, the other gods and the rest of the heroes who defeated the God of Destruction, lost control of it. They all worked together to contain it and he's merely maintaining the barrier while he gathers enough dead to increase his power and influence. Something the other gods they met had explicitly told them, reason they don't do anything about him gathering an army? They explained this as well.

They were also found camping in his forest, by him and an army of minions. He made a little deal with them.
1: Kill all the other gods, and he'd make them (the players) part of his undead army as a reward and take over the world while preventing it's destruction.
2: Refuse to kill the other gods, or go to him afterward without doing so and he'd add them to his army anyway.

Well, less of a deal and more of an order/demand, gods are weird like that. I had little to no intention of having them fight it.

Geordnet
2013-05-15, 08:50 PM
Well, less of a deal and more of an order/demand, gods are weird like that. I had little to no intention of having them fight it.

Oh, well there's your problem. It's a natural human tendency to fight anything presented as unavoidable. You always need to plan for the PCs taking a third option. :smalltongue:

Alaris
2013-05-15, 09:52 PM
Well, I have an "Are you sure" moment to share, from my most recent D&D session, where I DMed.

My party of 'heroes' was led to a Bandit Cave recently, after finding out that these bandits stole goods that were meant to be delivered to them. So they charge in valiantly, stumbling through some traps as well as some encounters with the local wildlife (pets to the Bandits mostly).

They get to the final room, and find that is where most of the bandits have congregated. They engage in a fight against the bandits, and the Bandit Leader drops the Party Leader in 1 round, with 2 arrows. He proves that he's pretty beefy. (Read: Higher Level).

So the rest of the party starts powering through his minions, and eventually, the local Tiefling Monk flies up to the bandit leader himself and tries (futility) to disarm him, and attack him.

The Leader decides, with his pack wiped out, the Paladin and Co. are likely going to engage, and while he can avoid the Monk's attacks pretty well, he doesn't want to deal with the Paladin, so he jumps down a escape hatch.

The party starts to recover (Paladin Heals the leader, etc), and then this happens:

TP (Tiefling Player): I fly down the hole after him!
Me: Are you sure you want to do that?
TP: Yes, definitely.
Me: Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE?
TP: Yes.
Me: Alright...

What ensued was a fairly brief side scene where the Bandit Leader made the Tiefling Monk a pin cushion for arrows. He is now dead.

I just don't get it... I pretty much emphasized through the combat that the Leader was a badass. It is unlikely that a single party member can take him on alone. And then I tried to warn the player in question that it would essentially not end well... and he ignored me.

I'm not trying to manipulate your character... I'm trying to ensure the story continues. Engaging the leader who avoided all of your attacks, and downed your party leader in 1 round, ALONE... IS. FOOLISH!

And before anyone goes on the rant of "CR DUDE" and "You stacked the encounter against them," I will stop you right there. They powered through the rest of the encounter. It was more or less set, the Bandit Leader would show he is powerful (by knocking out a PC), and then escape.

Now don't get me wrong, if he had legitimately missed the PCs, and they had gotten up to him and attacked together, they could've brought him down. I did not make the encounter impossible. I just made it difficult... you have to think. Charging after the Bandit Leader alone is not thinking, it's blindly charging.

Ugh...sorry, I just felt like ranting.

Vknight
2013-05-15, 11:36 PM
Don't worry Alaris we all do at some points in our gaming career
We all do
We need a topic call ranting corner

imaloony
2013-05-15, 11:59 PM
You kidding? In places where some DMs say "Are you sure?" my DM says "Roll it!"
For example:

DM: "You open the golden sarcophagus. Inside lies an ancient corpse, blackened by time."
Kender: "I PICK HIS POCKETS!"
DM: "Roll it!"
Kender: "Natural 100" (AD&D, so picking pockets is on percentile)
DM: "You're dead."
(BTW, the corpse was that of the Archduke of hell. The Kender switched souls with him.)

Threadnaught
2013-05-16, 02:39 AM
Oh, well there's your problem. It's a natural human tendency to fight anything presented as unavoidable. You always need to plan for the PCs taking a third option. :smalltongue:

There were multiple choices of where they could've gone. The choice they made, is the only choice I had planned, which I knew would kill them. Everywhere else and they'd encounter something more appropriate for their level.

Gamgee
2013-05-16, 03:09 AM
I've done this to many players. Many. Some are starting to get it now. After almost 10 years. Hahaha. :smallannoyed:

Wookieetank
2013-05-16, 08:58 AM
You kidding? In places where some DMs say "Are you sure?" my DM says "Roll it!"
For example:

DM: "You open the golden sarcophagus. Inside lies an ancient corpse, blackened by time."
Kender: "I PICK HIS POCKETS!"
DM: "Roll it!"
Kender: "Natural 100" (AD&D, so picking pockets is on percentile)
DM: "You're dead."
(BTW, the corpse was that of the Archduke of hell. The Kender switched souls with him.)

This is how I've typically done it, makes for a very entertaining time, and can be more motivating than warnings to not do something.

Players are in an area similar to Menzoberanzan, but with a high dragon population living in the caves.

Player: I try to summon a demon through sheer force of will.
Me: Roll it
*roll*: critical fail
Me: A white rabbit appears in front of you and runs off across the enormous cavern.
Player: At least something happened.
Me: As the rabbit gets out into the open a dragon swoops down and eats it. As the dragon flies off it starts convulsing and then suddenly crashes to the cavern floor. As you watch in stunned silence the white rabbit eats its way out of the dragon.
Entire party: Run away!

Which got them right to where I was trying to get them, but they did it of their own volition. That was a crazy group and a fun campaign.

Mono Vertigo
2013-05-16, 09:12 AM
You kidding? In places where some DMs say "Are you sure?" my DM says "Roll it!"
For example:

DM: "You open the golden sarcophagus. Inside lies an ancient corpse, blackened by time."
Kender: "I PICK HIS POCKETS!"
DM: "Roll it!"
Kender: "Natural 100" (AD&D, so picking pockets is on percentile)
DM: "You're dead."
(BTW, the corpse was that of the Archduke of hell. The Kender switched souls with him.)

The rest of the party must have considered this an improvement, however briefly.

imaloony
2013-05-16, 10:21 AM
The rest of the party must have considered this an improvement, however briefly.

Bah, the dumb Archduke was playing possum the whole time. Was waiting for a chance to use Shadow Skin (The armor the Kender was wearing) to jump to the realm of shadows and get back to hell, so we never got to do anything cool with him.
The Kender died pretty often (And was one of the few characters to stay dead, because at the end of the campaign he got melted by a Deep Dragon's breath weapon. AD&D didn't have true Resurrection, so no body, no Resurrection) so it wasn't much of a change, but I always thought the kender was hilarious. Annoying yes, but hilarious.
(BTW, the way that the Archduke subplot resolved itself was the a Solar came down after we finished the main objective with the Sarcophagus and switched the souls back.)

geeky_monkey
2013-05-16, 10:44 AM
Every time a DM has said "Are you sure?" to me I respond with "why?".

If I've forgotten something vital (such as the time I was going to charge an enemy, forgetting he was levitating over the side of a chasm) I'll probably change my mind, if it is just because the DM thinks it is out of character or silly I'll probably just do it.

There's nothing wrong with "Are you sure?" if it is just used as a safety check to ensure you've got the full picture - sometimes the most sensible plan can sound suicidal when spoken back to you with a couple of details you'd overlooked or forgotten about - but if the DM is using it to keep you rail-roaded it should be ignored with impunity.

Sutremaine
2013-05-16, 12:04 PM
There's nothing wrong with "Are you sure?" if it is just used as a safety check to ensure you've got the full picture
Funny, I came into this topic to compare a good DM "Are you sure?" with a dialogue box saying something like "Pressing OK will delete all of your settings! Are you sure you wish to continue with this operation?" Sometimes you're sure, sometimes you just lost concentration at an inconvenient moment.

Geordnet
2013-05-16, 05:33 PM
Player: I try to summon a demon through sheer force of will.
Me: Roll it
*roll*: critical fail
Me: A white rabbit appears in front of you and runs off across the enormous cavern.
Player: At least something happened.
Me: As the rabbit gets out into the open a dragon swoops down and eats it. As the dragon flies off it starts convulsing and then suddenly crashes to the cavern floor. As you watch in stunned silence the white rabbit eats its way out of the dragon.
Entire party: Run away!

Awesome! :smallbiggrin:

big teej
2013-05-16, 08:48 PM
personally, I've noticed that I use "are you sure" in equal parts for clarification, helping the party out, and messing with their heads.

in contrast

the phrase "do you really?" only comes out when the party is about to do something so royally fething stupid that it surprises the phrase out of me. some of my players have picked up on this and know the "do you really" phrase is a big blinking neon sign that says "reconsider."

they pick the worst times to do it anyway. :smallsigh:

Wookieetank
2013-05-17, 08:07 AM
Awesome! :smallbiggrin:

Thank you. :smallsmile:

Same character ended up immune to acid and able to drink it due to an absurd number of fortitude saves being passed spectacularly when said character bathed in and then drank a pool of acid. Can't say I blame him though, the only way out of their current area safely was to introduce two bags of holding to each other. Sadly school picked up and we never got enough time to get that far.

The Succubus
2013-05-17, 08:19 AM
Player: I eat breakfast.
DM: Are you sure?
Player: Yes.
DM: Roll initiative as a horde of goblins emerges from your bowl of fruit loops.

Now that's a school of DMing I can subscribe too. :smallbiggrin:

NichG
2013-05-17, 04:55 PM
I think the hierarchy for me is probably, from lowest degree of foolhardiness to the highest:

- That's a big risk...
- Are you sure?
- Really?
- Wait, what?
- ... okay, seriously?
- Okay, I'm just going to have some tea and you guys discuss this for 30 minutes.