What is BAB worth?

[rockdeworld]

When I considered how much base attack I would trade for one more spell level, my first and only thought was "all of it."

AFAIK, base attack gets you the following:
-improved to-hit
-iterative attacks
-entrance to prestige classes
-some feats
-better CMB/D and their 3.5 counterparts

To-hit is about 2000gp*bonus^2, which can also apply to CMB. Iterative attacks are outclassed by flurry or haste, but are useful if your to-hit is high enough. Prerequisites are prerequisites, unless you can work it out with your DM.

Power Attack an Combat Expertise imply the to-hit portion worth about 2 damage or 1 AC, respectively. The Warrior vs Adept NPC classes imply 15 BAB and some HP are worth 6 spell levels.

What do you all think? Within RAW, what can be traded for BAB?

Edit: To be clear, I'm talking about cost, not sentimental value. What can you use to buy 1 BAB, and what can you buy by giving up 1 BAB?

And added CMB and some more points

[FleshrakerAbuse]

1. Remember, BAB for spellcasters is much less worth. It is not worth a spell, because spellcasters won't be worrying about that. The DMG2 has guidelines in the designing classes and prestige classes; BAB loss isn't balanced for spells. If you want more spells, become a specialist or elven substitution wizard. Trading some aspect of spellcasting for another is best way to do it; more spells for less spell list (beguiler/dread necro), infinite spells for very little (dragonfire adept) or else.

[rockdeworld]

1. Remember, BAB for spellcasters is much less worth.
Yes, it's not worth much for spellcasters, but what's the argument that it's worth something for anyone else?

Edit: and specifically, how much? Weapon Focus implies that the designers thought it's worth more than 1 feat, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency effectively gives +4 to hit, which is better than 1 BAB in almost every sitation.

[Shining Wrath]

Power Attack feat. You can trade up to your BAB for twice that much damage when using a 2h weapon.

Before level 20, you can have the following to-hit adds:
Strength: start at 20, add 5 with wish / books, 6 with items, = 31 ==> +10 to hit
Weapon: Limited to +5 to hit
Various class features such as Swordsage weapon discipline: maybe another +2 or +3
That adds up to +18.

That's less than a BAB of 20.

For a melee type, BAB is crucial.
For a wizard or sorcerer, BAB is useless.
For a cleric or druid or duskblade or paladin? Ah, now the "would you trade BAB for better casting" becomes an interesting question.

[ericgrau]

Touchy subject because people don't often realize the impact of the numbers. Those iteratives often make each point of attack bonus worth +10% damage on full attacks. In fact in Pathfinder it often isn't worth it to trade it away for power attack whenever you can full attack. Most feats average out to less than +10% damage with all benefits, drawbacks and % of the time you can use them considered.

2000 gp * bonus^2 doesn't really work. The cost of upgrading your weapon is unlikely to coincide with your current BAB. From +9 to +10 (effective bonus) it is 38,000 gp for example. From +16 to +17 BAB would supposedly be 66,000 gp, yet you get both at about the same time and they should be worth the same. Or if you mean that the first point given up is worth 2,000 gp, then that's way too low.

As for BAB vs caster level, that's also tricky. It isn't worth it for a wizard to give up a caster level for even multiple BAB. Yet a BAB is worth much more to a high level fighter than being able to cast 1st level spells. And further casting is likewise weak until it's high enough to be comparable to his equipment after a few levels. Then it starts becoming worth more.

[hamishspence]

Spells that involve ranged touch attacks do benefit from a high BAB- though it's rare to have targets with a high touch AC.

[ericgrau]

I think that notion comes from level 20 build syndrome. Before level 15 attack bonus is worth something to a ray caster, just not as much as it's worth to another class. It's surprisingly hard to use poor BAB to hit touch AC with all the ranged bonuses and penalties involved. For any focused ray caster precise shot is a must, and other wizards who use rays without getting the feat(s) to focus on them will find their reliability to be quite imperfect. Unlike what you read on internet boards.

So it's not worthless, though it's not as worth as much to them as it is to another class.

[Gwazi Magnum]

A spell casters accuracy is almost always by caster level + d20 + casting ability score modifier.

So BAB is rarely a factor.
It is for ray spells so it's not useless, but many damaging spells like fireball aren't ray spells.

Also, BAB's other use is bow... which is a much weakened spell or a blade and unless if your Gestalt, your health probably sucks in which case why you swinging a sword in melee to start with? Besides this wouldn't even be a question if Gestalt because then you could have both caster levels and high BAB.

But in this game magic is far more broken and powerful than anything else. So if you to choose between spells and BAB, spells win every time.

If you're a non-spellcaster however, BAB is suddenly your best friend.

[hamishspence]

Aren't Orb spells also ranged touch?

[Barsoom]

How much is BAB worth? Depends whom you ask.

If I'm a 10th level martial character, I would pay a lot to advance by +10 BAB into +11.
If I'm a 10th level spellcaster, I wouldn't pay a broken copper piece to advance my +5 BAB into +6, or even +8.

[Rubik]

Full base attack bonus is worth approximately half a 4th level spell slot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)

[Snails]

Spells that involve ranged touch attacks do benefit from a high BAB- though it's rare to have targets with a high touch AC.

It can easily matter if your DM is a stickler when it comes to invoking a penalties for ranged attacks against targets engaged in combat and cover.

A 10th level wizard with 14 Dex gets +7 to hit. Sounds pretty good against Touch AC, right? Maybe.

-4 for ranged attack into combat?
-4 for cover?

+3 to hit or -1 to hit ain't great, even if your target is a Large creature.

At really high level, you might just use Quicken True Strike, but that is not cheap and the action cost is something.

[Snails]

Full base attack bonus is worth approximately half a 4th level spell slot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)

The cost is in the Action Economy.

At higher levels, you can probably do a lot with Extended Divine Power.

At lower levels, you might be giving up a precious Action. You get your first attack in after the Fighter unloads his Full Iterative Attack.

[Killer Angel]

Spellcasters that rely on to hit spells, will find a way to increase their to hit, regardless the low bab.
And anyway, spellcasters can choose to focus on spells that don't require the to hit, so (for them) a high BAB is nice, but not vital.

[ericgrau]

Full base attack bonus is worth approximately half a 4th level spell slot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)

An extra action is worth more than 3 of everything else being discussed here combined.

[Barsoom]

Yeah. If DMM: Persist or Quicken schenanigans did not exist, no one would care much about Divine Power. It's just not a very good spell to hardcast.

[Gorgondantess]

Yeah. If DMM: Persist or Quicken schenanigans did not exist, no one would care much about Divine Power. It's just not a very good spell to hardcast.

But they do exist, and even without them you have neat things like surprise rounds, combat that the players initiate rather than their enemies (and augury (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury.htm)and contact other plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) and divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm) and a whole suite of other divination spells I'm not mentioning to help ensure that this happens), splurging 75.5k on a Quicken rod (a worthy investment!), and when all else fails your extra action from a belt of battle.
A cleric who is spending their actions in the middle of combat on buffing themselves is doing their job wrong.

[Slipperychicken]

Full BAB= [Cost of continuous item of Divine Power, minus the ability buff and temp hp], x2 for slotless, further modified for being immune to dispel/supression techniques => absurdly expensive.

[Shining Wrath]

Full base attack bonus is worth approximately half a 4th level spell slot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm)

*Sigh*. WotC just cannot, CANNOT, *CANNOT* let melee have nice things without giving them to spellcasters as well. I think the guys at WotC must, in the back of their minds, think nerds=wizards, jocks=fighters, and they are getting even for high school.

[Snails]

But they do exist, and even without them you have neat things like surprise rounds, combat that the players initiate rather than their enemies (and augury (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury.htm)and contact other plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) and divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm) and a whole suite of other divination spells I'm not mentioning to help ensure that this happens), splurging 75.5k on a Quicken rod (a worthy investment!), and when all else fails your extra action from a belt of battle.
A cleric who is spending their actions in the middle of combat on buffing themselves is doing their job wrong.

We agree there is potential for abuse with stacks of expansion choices in. But it really is not the Core-only Divine Power that is the problem.

At the level where that rod is available, a melee Cleric is considering (in no particular order):
Divine Power
Righteous Might
Divine Favor
Bull's Strength
Bear's Endurance
GMW
Magic Vestment
Protection from Evil
Magic Circle vs. Evil
Shield of Faith
Dispel Evil
Resist Energy
Protection from Energy
Invisibility Purge
Delay/Neutralize Poison

It is perfectly possible to be loaded up with 12-20 buffs, but that just is not practical against non-stupid enemies because they can play a delaying game and run of the clock with lower level magic. Is the marginal utility of Divine Power so immense when Bull's Strength and Divine Favor costs practically nothing?

[awa]

also keep in mind divine power is by default a cleric spell not a wizard spell thus the logic would be you are not going from wizard bab to full bab.

[Bob]

Worth != Cost.

and this may be really obvious and go with out saying, but what is going to contribute to the value of your BAB the most is what you're swinging, how hard you are swinging it, and how many times you get the chance to swing it.

from a min/maxing perspective, BAB is useful primarily to deliver your class features (16 being the magic number here)

but from a game design perspective, I can make BAB more valuable by controlling items, stretching out fights, foiling certain magic.

It really depends on the game, really.

for real.

[TuggyNE]

A spell casters accuracy is almost always by caster level + d20 + casting ability score modifier.

I'm a little puzzled by this; what spells use this formula? Spiritual weapon doesn't, fireball doesn't, dispel magic doesn't, scorching ray doesn't… I think only Mordenkainen's sword and a few others use anything like that.

[Acanous]

Really, the only BAB increase a caster cares about is from 0-1. That's when you can draw your spell component pouch as part of a move action.

That's a pretty big change, but at no other time does it actually bear any importance.

Melee characters need more BAB whenever they can get it. Melee types would never want to trade more than 4 BAB while prestiging, because that would eat their 4th iterative attack.

Casters would never want to trade more than 3 casting levels, because that's their 9th level spells.

So I suppose from a game perspective, a BAB is worth 0.75 of a casting level, where a casting level is worth 1.25 a non-casting level.

[awa]

melee gishes can easily get away with losing one attack at level 20.

also i believe there is a prestige class that is 0 bab but gives +2 str every level

[Slipperychicken]

Really, the only BAB increase a caster cares about is from 0-1. That's when you can draw your spell component pouch as part of a move action.


I always thought those things were on necklaces by default. Also taking a spell component for a spell is a free action.



also i believe there is a prestige class that is 0 bab but gives +2 str every level

War Hulk. It's hard to qualify for, but nice for Dungeoncrasher/bull-rush builds and gestalt.

[kulosle]

well as a gish build i would give up one or two caster levels if it meant i got 16 BAB. The main goal of gish is to get 9th level spells and 16 BAB so you only really need 18 caster level.

[rockdeworld]

I must have tipped this conversation towards spells with my opening line. The question I wanted answered was really: what is BAB worth relative to things that are not spells?

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd say a single point of BAB would be worth somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000 GP.

[awa]

its depends on how they are planning on doing there damge.
say warlocks don't need much bab becuase they have touch attacks. A war-blade or scout does not need iterative attacks so as long as they are getting to hit somewhere bab is not vital
these things cant be taken in a vacuum.
edit
see pricing it like that doesn't tell you it's "value" becuase if i had the choice of a regular level 1 fighter or a level 1 fighter with o bab but 10 to 20 thousand gp worth of items i know which one is more powerful.

[rockdeworld]

<snip>
I'm talking about cost, not sentimental value. What can you use to buy 1 BAB, and what can you buy by giving up 1 BAB?

In fact, I'll add that to the OP.

[zlefin]

There was a nice point based design your own class system someone posted on these boards aways back; i'd recommend looking that up.
While I never got to test it myself; the numbers were fairly thorough, and I think it's costs were reasonably accurate; i'd look up the point cost in that system to gain BAB; compared to various class abilities and other things.

[Snails]

I'm talking about cost, not sentimental value. What can you use to buy 1 BAB, and what can you buy by giving up 1 BAB?.

For a primary spellcaster? Approximately nothing, as it should be.

For a meleeist, there are some interesting options. For example, a 3 level dip into Rogue is a nice way to get some skills. A 3 level dip in cleric is really attractive. Not only do you get a few of the standard buffs, but the Will boost and a well chosen Domain ability is "worth" a feat each, easy.

[awa]

as far as i know no one has mentioned sentimental value of bab in any post

[Rubik]

as far as i know no one has mentioned sentimental value of bab in any postBecause nobody really cares about sentiment regarding BAB? If your numbers are high enough and you hit hard enough, it doesn't matter too much if you have 2 or 4 attacks, especially given the later ones probably won't hit anyway.

[Slipperychicken]

Because nobody really cares about sentiment regarding BAB? If your numbers are high enough and you hit hard enough, it doesn't matter too much if you have 2 or 4 attacks, especially given the later ones probably won't hit anyway.

You need sentimental value to determine consumer preferences and create an accurate demand schedule for BAB. Then it's just a matter of making a supply curve, and the quantity and price at which they're equal is the market value of BAB. Of course, that's not accounting for externalities like sucking because you chose melee over a spellcaster, or getting to play the character you want when you otherwise wouldn't. So you just need to estimate those and include them in the social cost of BAB (modifying the supply or demand curve appropriately), and that should give you the socially-optimal price of BAB relative to social costs.

[Osiris]

I'm with G Magnum here, casters, or at least wizards, need no BaB except for rays. Also, one item uses BaB of 1 or higher- the Infinite Scrollcase, from the magic item compendium. I like scrolls, and just one reason is because they are one of the wizard's ONLY class features! Now, melee fighters NEED BaB, and the middle guys, archers, or clerics, do well with BaB, but it also would work with Greater Magic Weapon!

[Ashtagon]

Really, the only BAB increase a caster cares about is from 0-1. That's when you can draw your spell component pouch as part of a move action.

That's a pretty big change, but at no other time does it actually bear any importance.

Unless you plan on swinging your spell component pouch at someone as some kind of a demented improvised weapon, not even that is much use. even if the pouch is ready at hand, an action is still involved in fiddling around with it to pull the right rabbit out of that hat.

[TuggyNE]

even if the pouch is ready at hand, an action is still involved in fiddling around with it to pull the right rabbit out of that hat.

Drawing from a spell component pouch is a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions). :smallconfused:

[awa]

Because nobody really cares about sentiment regarding BAB? If your numbers are high enough and you hit hard enough, it doesn't matter too much if you have 2 or 4 attacks, especially given the later ones probably won't hit anyway.

i was referring to someone else post not advocating babs sentimental value

[Phelix-Mu]

So I was trying to balance monk/wiz/abjurant champion on the way to a self-gimped melee gish build for an epic campaign. I wound up with +14 BAB, which admittedly sucked. But I got some story-based monkness, and the start of Abj. Champ in by 20th, and with options to enable more flurry more often, I still end up with five attacks pre-haste when I can get the flurry off. Far from optimal, but with a party of casters and a bard behind me, even my non-tank monk was putting out some decent (READ: not barbarian-level) damage.

In short, even for pretty straightforward melee builds, there are a number of ways to tack on an extra attack, and as the standard is four attacks per full attack, that's not too hard to achieve if your BAB is a little short.

The to-hit issue is much more pertinent, especially at low levels. Missing is only minorly better than doing nothing with your action, and before magic items come online for to-hit mitigation, missing is something a pure melee character can hardly afford to do.

Now, if we look at builds at 20th level, to-hit is not an issue until the low iteratives, and any damage-output op build is probably on their second or third target by this point, or just beating the corpse to paste. Haste, Flurry, Snap Kick, and other tricks to get more attacks at highest BAB all add to efficiency of normally risky Power Attacking. Even my self-gimped monk/wizard is dishing out some respectable damage with epic bard buffs, greater mighty wallop, haste, some ToB/Sun School/Snap Kick synergy, and all.

In conclusion, BAB is worth more early on, like most things in the game. Later on, magic profusion causes massive distortion in the value of any one tactic or mechanic. Really, the game is complex enough that, at mid to high levels, mitigation can be had for just about any shortcoming. Since PCs are wealthy enough to be in the 1% of all but the most high-powered settings, and casters are part of pretty much any party, there are ample ways to offset the loss of -1 to -9. Thus, value of BAB is relative to level, and at high levels there are plenty of ways other than BAB to increase damage output (though somewhat less of these ways come as built-in class features).

Also, I would note that, past 20th, progression of attack bonuses by level is standardized for all classes, and never add extra attacks. Thus, whatever rubric we gauge BAB value by pre-20th, it's pretty clear that it's even less relevant later on in terms of weighing optimization (since any class level counts toward epic attack bonus). Kind of sad that my epic melee monk is getting more accurate at the same rate as the epic DWK sorcerer.:smallannoyed:

And (wow, rambling on a bit), BAB for monsters is more important than for PCs, so that gives another relative point of comparison.

[zlefin]

I found that old custom system;
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616
it has a value for BAB that may be of some use; note that in that BAB also affects the cost to get weapon/armor proficiencies.