Gestalt question - Fighter and Psychic Warrior

[gurgleflep]

Okay, I know this is pretty stupid, but if you gestalt the fighter and psychic warrior, does that mean you get ALL of those bonus feats? I wouldn't ever do it (unless it was a campaign where we're just messing around) nor would I let a player do it, but... would it work this way? That'd be a TON of feats, all the fighters, psychic warriors, and the ones you gain normally.

[Flickerdart]

You do not. "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class."

[Gwazi Magnum]

Uncanny dodge is a specific ability than cannot be doubled, plus it details in that ability specifically it can't be doubled.

Fighter bonus feats I don't believe have the same restriction so it would in fact work.

[Flickerdart]

Uncanny dodge is a specific ability than cannot be doubled, plus it details in that ability specifically it can't be doubled.

Fighter bonus feats I don't believe have the same restriction so it would in fact work.
That's not what the rule says. It cares about two things. Are they class features? Yes, both are listed under "class features" for their classes. Do the classes share them? Yes, both classes get the "Bonus Feats" class feature. Then they don't stack.

[gurgleflep]

That's not what the rule says. It cares about two things. Are they class features? Yes, both are listed under "class features" for their classes. Do the classes share them? Yes, both classes get the "Bonus Feats" class feature. Then they don't stack.

That's a shame, if it had worked that would have been 26 feats by twentieth level.
So I guess it'd be the fighter's feat system, seeing as he gets a couple more.. so 18.

[Bob]

Are fighter bonus feats and psywar bonus feats considered the same ability for this purpose? Psywars are gaining from a slightly different list.

Either way, each individual bonus feat is a separate feature, so you would get the bonus feats on levels 5, 11, and 15 in addition to your fighter feats.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Honestly I don't recall any rule in d&d generally stating abilities can't be doubled.

It's something always listed in individual abilities, and since

1) Bonus feats don't state anything like that

and

2) The progression and feats available are different

I still support it's possible to use both.

[Bob]

We are talking about how gestalt specifically handles Bonus Feats. And they appear to stack so long as the class features have different names, such as the fighter's bonus feats and the ranger's combat style. But the gestalt article is oddly silent on the subject of fighter/monks. So, it seems that our problem here is mainly syntax.

Flickerdart's interpretation seems a bit too conservative, but it is difficult not to agree with.

[Xerxus]

So bonus feats, whatever their kind, shouldn't stack? Even if the list from which you select the feats is completely different? If that case is different, then the fighter and psychic warrior bonus feats do stack because they are drawn from different lists, just as cleric and wizard spellcasting is essentially the same but different even though they share some spells.

[Gwazi Magnum]

We are talking about how gestalt specifically handles Bonus Feats. And they appear to stack so long as the class features have different names, such as the fighter's bonus feats and the ranger's combat style. But the gestalt article is oddly silent on the subject of fighter/monks. So, it seems that our problem here is mainly syntax.

Flickerdart's interpretation seems a bit too conservative, but it is difficult not to agree with.

I think it's a case of WotC expecting people to use common sense rather than looking for legal authority to make a certain build.

When they say advance in both classes, and leave it at that.
I'm pretty they mean just that, not advance in both classes unless if they have similliar sounding things here, here and here.

The only things they detail on is general class features like hit dice, skills, saves and BAB where they state pick the better.

[Bob]

The question was in regard to legality.

And I like Xerxus's arguement.

[eggynack]

I agree with the interpretation where the character would get both sets of feats. As long as you pick different feats, you're effectively getting different abilities, so there's not really a crossover. Bonus feats seem mutable like that. Moreover, I don't think it's a particularly cheesy combo. There's only so far you can get with bonus feats, because feat chains are a linear progression which hits a capstone pretty early on. Once you hit the end of a chain, you just get the ability to progress along another feat chain of equal or likely lesser power to the first. It's nice, but not broken. There are a ton of far more powerful things you can do in gestalt than getting a bundle of fighter feats. If getting a pile of feats were enough to gain a lot of power, then fighters would be more powerful to begin with. Additionally, I've heard of people running one feat every two levels, and of fighter fixes that give them a feat every level. They don't tend to overpower campaigns at all.

[HunterOfJello]

You would get all the feats. Here's why:


"Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class."

The important word in this line is accrue. Fighters do not accrue bonus feats in the way that barbarians and rogue accrue the class feature Uncanny Dodge.

If you played a Rogue 5//Barbarian 5, then the rule states that you would gain Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 5 because that is the faster rate at which the Barbarian would obtain that class feature. A Rogue on its own would not have Improved Uncanny Dodge until level 8.

An argument could be made that a Rogue//Spellthief would only gain sneak attack dice from one of the classes and would gain it at the rate of the Rogue since that is the faster progression.

However, Fighters and Psychic Warriors do not have a progression of Bonus Feat class features. They simply have a class feature that occurs many times as they level up. There is no rate to their class features and they don't accrue the class feature at some sort of progression, they just happen to get it multiple times.

~~~~~~~~~


That said, the choice of Fighter//Psychic Warrior isn't really a great one. It could be great for a few levels, but you're going to run out of worthwhile Fighter and Psionic bonus feats before you hit level 10 or so. I'd find a prestige class to switch in to on the fighter side at the very least.

[Namfuak]

That's not what the rule says. It cares about two things. Are they class features? Yes, both are listed under "class features" for their classes. Do the classes share them? Yes, both classes get the "Bonus Feats" class feature. Then they don't stack.

So you are saying that if you made a wizard//fighter, you would not get the wizard's bonus feats? Effective, what you are saying is that the fighter doesn't just help the build very little, but may in fact hinder it due to the poor feat selection?

[killem2]

I think it is important to quote this from the SRD:


Fighter/Ranger
If you like feats, this is the class for you. Most fighters must choose whether to split their feats between melee and ranged combat or emphasize one kind of attack at the expense of the other. The fighter/ranger can have it both ways, relying on the fighter bonus feats to improve melee attacks and the ranger’s combat style, improved combat style, and combat style mastery to pick up three good archery feats.

I think that quite effectively spells it out, you do get to use both feats from both classes.

[TuggyNE]

I think that quite effectively spells it out, you do get to use both feats from both classes.

It would, except for the part where it doesn't apply to this case at all; Rangers do not have a class feature labeled Bonus Feat. Instead, they are treated as having certain feats, whether or not they qualify for them. It's completely different syntactically and semantically.

I do think it's reasonable to let PsyWar//Fighter get all the bonus feats, but a strict reading would probably be pretty similar to Flickerdart's, sadly. However, the reason (Improved) Uncanny Dodge is dissimilar to Bonus Feats is that it has a scaling bonus built in (class level +4), which doesn't characterize Bonus Feats.

[Snowbluff]

That's not what the rule says. It cares about two things. Are they class features? Yes, both are listed under "class features" for their classes. Do the classes share them? Yes, both classes get the "Bonus Feats" class feature. Then they don't stack.

Ahem.

"Spells" are a Class feature.

[eggynack]

I think there's potentially a middle reading of the ability. If you consider the bonus feats as a collection of individual class features instead of one feature called "bonus feats" then the combo would get one bonus feat on every level in which the fighter gets a bonus feat, one on every level where the psychic warrior gets a bonus feat, and one feat on levels where both classes get a feat. This would lead to a reduction of feats at levels 1, 2, 8, 14, and 20. More importantly, it would give extra feats over the pure fighter at levels 5, 11 and 17. This reading would also take away that weird exploit where the factotum can pick emulate the fighter's bonus feats as a whole. I don't know if it's necessarily an accurate reading, but it seems to be a fair reading, and that has to count for something.

[danzibr]

Finally enough feats for Psychic Weapon Master!

[gurgleflep]

I leave for three hours so that I can take a nap and mow my entire yard and I come back to all of this!
It would appear that the general consensus is that it would work, but whether or not your DM/GM allows it is a whole other story!.


Finally enough feats for Psychic Weapon Master!

What's that?

[eggynack]

It would appear that the general consensus is that it would work, but whether or not your DM/GM allows it is a whole other story!.


If it's RAW legal, I don't see why a DM wouldn't allow it. Psychic warrior//fighter doesn't seem like a particularly powerful combination. Feats only get so far, and you're really only marginally more powerful than a psychic warrior, or perhaps only marginally more powerful than a psychic warrior with full BAB. What are you even doing with a pile of fighter feats without resorting to dark chaos shuffle cheese? Compare this to something like a wizard//factotum, or a purely regular druid, and this comes up short. You should be reasonably balanced against most things that aren't CW samurai// monk.

[TuggyNE]

I leave for three hours so that I can take a nap and mow my entire yard and I come back to all of this!

Ladies and gents, GitP.


It would appear that the general consensus is that it would work, but whether or not your DM/GM allows it is a whole other story!

I'd actually put it the other way around; by strict RAW, it probably doesn't quite work, but a reasonable DM should let it anyway, because (as eggynack mentioned) it's really not even vaguely overpowered.

[Arcanist]

Flickerdart's interpretation seems a bit too conservative, but it is difficult not to agree with.

I agree with Flickerdart because I cannot quite honestly see any flaw in his logic.


At 1st level, a psychic warrior gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The psychic warrior gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every three levels thereafter (5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats or psionic feats. The psychic warrior must still meet all prerequisites for the bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums as well as class requirements. A psychic warrior cannot choose feats that specifically require levels in the fighter class unless he is a multiclass character with the requisite levels in the fighter class.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gains every three levels. A psychic warrior is not limited to fighter bonus feats and psionic feats when choosing these other feats.

The Italic text is the similar text and the bolded text is where it differs.

For the sake of comparison, I'll also list the Fighter listing as well.


At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

This is a disturbing topic since it deals with hair length differences and I do not feel comfortable stating that they are entirely different based on minor differences.

[Spuddles]

So you are saying that if you made a wizard//fighter, you would not get the wizard's bonus feats? Effective, what you are saying is that the fighter doesn't just help the build very little, but may in fact hinder it due to the poor feat selection?

No, you wouldnt get the wizard bonus feats. You get the class ability that accrues faster.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go Fighter // Psion (Egoist) into Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d), and get the Change Shape and True Healer ACFs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) for Egoist since you technically don't get the bonus feats (unless your DM says otherwise).

1. Fighter 1// Psion 1, Change Shape, Dodge, Psionic Dodge, Psionic Weapon, Weapon Focus
2. Fighter 2// Psion 2, Dungeoncrasher
3. Fighter 3// Psion 3, Power Attack
4. Fighter 4// Psion 4, Mobility
5. Fighter 5// Psion 5, True Healer
6. Psychic Weapon Master 1// Psion 6, Psicrystal Affinity
7. Psychic Weapon Master 2// Fighter 6, Dungeoncrasher
8. Psychic Weapon Master 3// Psion 7
9. Psychic Weapon Master 4// Psychic Warrior 1, Linked Power
10. Psychic Weapon Master 5// Psion 8, Combat Reflexes
11. Psychic Weapon Master 6// Psychic Warrior 2, Improved Critical
12. Psychic Weapon Master 7// Psion 9, Improved Critical*
13. Psychic Weapon Master 8// Psychic Warrior 3
14. Psychic Weapon Master 9// Psion 10, Psionic Meditation, Whirlwind Attack
15. Psychic Weapon Master 10// Psychic Warrior 4, Extend Power
16. Warshaper 1// Psion 11
17. Warshaper 2// Psion 12
18. Warshaper 3// Psion 13, Persistent Power
19. Warshaper 4// Psion 14
20. Psychic Warrior 5// Psion 15, Defensive Sweep

[eggynack]

No, you wouldnt get the wizard bonus feats. You get the class ability that accrues faster.
This doesn't really make sense to me. The two feat sets are completely and utterly different. They just have the same name. You're basically saying that the thing that determines that a class feature overlaps or not is strictly name based, which is untrue by my understanding. It's been mentioned, but casters are a good example of this. By your logic wizards have spells, and clerics have spells, so wizard//cleric would just get one set of spells or the other. I think that the relevant factor here should be an actual comparison between the two class features. Fighters and psychic warriors don't share the class feature of bonus feats. Fighters have the fighter bonus feats class feature, while psychic warriors have the psychic warrior bonus feats class feature, which is different.

I think that the major mitigating factor here should be whether a given class feature can be considered strictly better than another class feature in all circumstances. If the psychic warrior could only gain fighter bonus feats, then you'd be correct in this reading, however the addition of psionic feats means that the character could conceivably gain more by taking the psychic warrior bonus feats. Casting works the same way. Wizard casting can't be declared strictly better than cleric casting, so they don't overlap. Conversely, you would never want a ranger animal companion over a druid animal companion, so the druid animal companion is strictly better, and therefore supersedes the ranger ability. I think that this interpretation works in all cases, and is perfectly logical.

One gray area is that this means that if the psychic warrior were the one with the fast feat progression compared to the fighter's slow progression, then the character would only gain the psychic warrior's feat progression, and this would remain true if they both got the same speed of progression.

[Xerxus]

If fighter and psychic warrior feats don't stack then bard and wizard spellcasting don't stack.

[Spuddles]

If fighter and psychic warrior feats don't stack then bard and wizard spellcasting don't stack.

And monks aren't proficient with their own fists.

What's new?

[eggynack]

But bard and wizard spellcasting do stack in a gestalt. I don't have a super clear example for that, but sorcerer//wizard works better as an example anyway. A wizard//sorcerer is listed under possibilities for gestalt, and they are mentioned as having both sets of spells, so you are clearly getting both abilities. Another listed example is cleric//sorcerer, which is clearly mentioned as being, "effectively the mystic theurge prestige class on steroids." The logic goes thusly:

If wizard and sorcerer casting stack, then psychic warrior and fighter feats stack.
Wizard and sorcerer casting clearly stack.
Q.E.D, psychic warrior and fighter feats stack.

It seems pretty clear cut to me.