grapple at range

[pyromanser244]

this has come up in a few of our games now. monster x has reach somehow and tries to initiate a grapple but it doesn't have improved anything to stop the free attack. so the PC makes their free attack dealing massive damage to the smallest part of the monster and winning the fight on their next turn (that is if stabbing the hand didn't kill the thing outright). now as far as I'm concerned the AoO here is stupid but I can understand it. the real problem I have is where the monster must enter the same square as the to-be-grappled PC. this has come up as part of the argument for the AoO = massive damage and all I could think in response is "NO they Don't". I can grapple and pin a cat at arms length. the cat may try to claw me but it can only reach my hand; it cannot disembowel me. tentacle monsters work on this same principle and I'd tend to think most things large enough to take advantage of this would as well. but I don't know of any rules in DnD to account for this.

TL;DR how does grapple work for things that have reach really work.

[Tar Palantir]

If the monster has reach greater than that of the PC and is outside the PC's reach, they don't get an AoO. While this seems kind of odd, since yes, the monster has to grab them or whatever, it does fit a bit better with the "can't reach any important bits" line of thinking. In either case, the RAW is clear: no AoO if the PC doesn't threaten the monster's space.

[Curmudgeon]

This all stems from D&D's simplified model of where creatures are located. Officially, no part of an attacker (including their weapon) leaves their space when they make a melee attack. The "natural reach" characteristic of the attacker is what enables them to attack other squares, not the physical extension of their appendages or weapons. This simplification makes considerations of spell and other area effects much easier: you don't have to worry about half of your weapon being inside/outside a spell area when reaching to attack, for instance.

[pyromanser244]

ok so the rules still want the combatants to share a space but that happens after the AoO resolves?

[Than]

ok so the rules still want the combatants to share a space but that happens after the AoO resolves?

Right. The grapple initiator is only required to enter the space of whatever it is grappling to MAINTAIN the grapple. If he just wants to grapple and use that as a way to go all monkfist against touch AC, then it can. Afterward just fail to enter the space and the grapple automatically breaks.

I've used the tactic to resolve the standard flurry of misses issue on a monk. Just make flurry of grapples and opposed grapples for free hits. The DM and his overwhelming number of skeletons never saw it coming.

[Khedrac]

Right. The grapple initiator is only required to enter the space of whatever it is grappling to MAINTAIN the grapple. If he just wants to grapple and use that as a way to go all monkfist against touch AC, then it can. Afterward just fail to enter the space and the grapple automatically breaks.

I've used the tactic to resolve the standard flurry of misses issue on a monk. Just make flurry of grapples and opposed grapples for free hits. The DM and his overwhelming number of skeletons never saw it coming.
How I read this is you are using the fact that your target is grappled to negate their dexterity bonus to AC. However grappled foes only lose their Dex bonus against all opponents except the on grappling them. If you are the grappler you are attacking normal AC every single time...

As for the reach question it gets even worse with Close Quarters Fighting as if you cannot make the attack you don't get the grapple bonus. I completely agree that RAW you cannot make the AoO as you do not threaten the thing grappling you, but I house-rule that if the grapple is being made with a natural weapon then you can make the AoO (you still cannot if they are using a grappling weapon).

[Qc Storm]

How I read this is you are using the fact that your target is grappled to negate their dexterity bonus to AC. However grappled foes only lose their Dex bonus against all opponents except the on grappling them. If you are the grappler you are attacking normal AC every single time...


No, he is stating the rule where you deal automatic unarmed damage upon starting a grapple. Starting a grapple is only a touch attack and a grapple check that should be fairly easy for a grapple-optimized combatant.

You then deal your unarmed damage, bypassing the monster's possibly high AC.