illumian = human?

[LastRose]

So... my dm wants me to site where you can use a illumian as prereqs to become a chameleon, saying that they aren't human? I thought that Illumians were a human variant?

[Barsoom]

It says black on white in Races of Destiny that Illumians have the type and subtype of Humanoid (Human).

[Callin]

page 150 at the bottom. its a variant though so the DM is allowed to disallow it. However you can take the feat Human Heritage and then there is no issue.

edit: True they do have the Humanoid (human) subtype. So with that and all of the rest the DM should suck eggs.

[LastRose]

He allows the variant, but is saying that I can't go chameleon because it requires 'Race: Human or doppelganger' and not "Humanoid (Human)".

Is there anything in the PHB's that say that Humanoid (Human)'s can qualify for anything that a human qualifies for? I've been reading for the past hour to find something but have yet to find anything.

[Urpriest]

Race isn't defined in D&D. The closest thing that's actually a part of the rules is subtypes.

Basically, if a PrC requires a specific race, there isn't actually any way to know what that means until the game gets some errata. And since it's out of print...

[Snowbluff]

Wait...

ILLUMIAN.

Take out the second 'i'.

Turn the first one sideways and situate it betwixt the 'l's...

l-luman...

D:

"Illumian green is people!"

[GoatBoy]

Wait...

ILLUMIAN.

Take out the second 'i'.

Turn the first one sideways and situate it betwixt the 'l's...

l-luman...

D:

"Illumian green is people!"

"From the makers of Soylent Green: The troll meat rations that grow back every time you take a bite..."

But yeah. Illumians are humans. Is he worried about the potential power of the combination? Or ie he just determined to stick to the rules?

[LastRose]

It's really because it specifies race prereqs as human, apparently.

[Telonius]

Ask him if he'd allow a Wood Elf to take the Arcane Archer class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With the printing of Races of Destiny, 'Human' became a subtype shared by many races, similar to 'Elf' and 'Goblinoid' and many others.

From Races of Destiny alone we have Illumians, Mongrelfolk, Sea Kin, Sharakim, Skulk, and Underfolk all share the Humanoid (Human) type and subtype. All of these races, as well as the PHB Human, qualify for anything that has a race prerequisite of Human. All of these races are variant humans, just like the core Monster Manual has variant Elf races, all of which qualify for anything that has a race prerequisite of Elf.

[Namfuak]

Ask him if he'd allow a Wood Elf to take the Arcane Archer class.

You could make the argument that since it has elf in the name it counts. Ask him the same question about avariels, which are obviously a variant species of elf.

[Curmudgeon]

Race isn't defined in D&D.
No, but the term is used whenever they introduce a new race, so you can make a list of D&D races. Illumian is a race, and Human is a different race. Thus Illumian isn't going to qualify you when they specify Race: Human.

[Psyren]

You need your DM to approve the variant on page 150 before Illumians can enter Chameleon. Without it, Curmudgeon is correct and they aren't quite human enough.

[DrunkenMists]

I'd tell your DM to let you take it by extension of the subtype.

Show the math; what is it gonna effect? if memory serves...at most a missed caster level?

[Grim Reader]

Isn't there a feat in Races of Destiny that lets you qualify for stuff like that? Is it for Halfbreeds only?

[Gerrtt]

You could make the argument that since it has elf in the name it counts. Ask him the same question about avariels, which are obviously a variant species of elf.

What about a Drow...also a variant species, but listed on the Elf page on the SRD.

[Coidzor]

You need your DM to approve the variant on page 150 before Illumians can enter Chameleon. Without it, Curmudgeon is correct and they aren't quite human enough.

He accepts the variant and still sides with Curmudgeon's interpretation.

[Deadline]

Isn't there a feat in Races of Destiny that lets you qualify for stuff like that? Is it for Halfbreeds only?

Not really, the feat lets you count as Humanoid(Human). That's it. The implication, of course, is that lets you qualify as human.

[Scow2]

The (Human) subtype defines their race as Human for all mechanical purposes. They just have a different set of racial features.

[Callin]

I was always under the impression that it was Human only as well until I came to these boards.

[Curmudgeon]

He accepts the variant and still sides with Curmudgeon's interpretation.
That's quite possible, because there are actually two variant rules in the variant section. There's the main part (grouping together of Humanlike races) and the dependent subsidiary part (human subtype qualifies as Human race):
This means that such races qualify as human ... That's a second variant rule, required in order for the first variant rule to have the desired outcome. The leading pronoun refers to the first variant rule.

[Deadline]

That's a second variant rule, required in order for the first variant rule to have the desired outcome. The leading pronoun refers to the first variant rule.

So is it your contention that Humanoid(Human) does not qualify as human without the second rule, or that the second item is simply clarifying that because they now have the Humanoid(Human) type and subtype they qualify as Humans?

I side with the latter, but it seems like you are indicating the former.

[Curmudgeon]

So is it your contention that Humanoid(Human) does not qualify as human without the second rule
Yes, that's it exactly.

[Coidzor]

What does the first rule do then anyway? I thought they had the human subtype, with the attendant meaning that they're related to humans due to subtypes being subtypes, even without any variant rules.

[Psyren]

The book is pretty clear that "Humanoid (human)" isn't intended to be enough on its own. For instance, from the Human chapter:


SPECIAL HUMAN OPTIONS

As a human character, you qualify for some human-specific feats and prestige classes unavailable to PCs of other races, all described in Chapters 5 and 6 of this book.
Feats: Able Learner, Fearless Destiny, Heroic Destiny, Protected Destiny.
Prestige Classes: Chameleon, urban soul.

Whereas from the Illumian chapter:


SPECIAL ILLUMIAN OPTIONS

As an illumian character, you qualify for some illumian specific feats and prestige classes unavailable to PCs of other races, all described in Chapters 5 and 6 of this book.
Feats: Bright Sigil, Enhanced Power Sigils, Human Heritage, Improved Power Sigil (Aesh), Improved Power Sigil (Hoon), Improved Power Sigil (Krau), Improved Power Sigil (Naen), Improved Power Sigil (Uur), Improved Power Sigil (Vaul), Subtle Sigil.
Prestige Classes: Loredelver, shadow sentinel.

If Illumians were intended to be able to get into Chameleon without DM assistance, chameleon would be listed as a PrC from the book that they could enter. It's not, so they can't. The 150 variant loosens that restriction.

[Deadline]

What does the first rule do then anyway? I thought they had the human subtype, with the attendant meaning that they're related to humans due to subtypes being subtypes, even without any variant rules.

If I understand Curmudgeon's argument, the first rule, without the second, only serves to weaken your character overall, as it makes you more susceptible to Ranger Favored enemy damage, and bane enchantments. It also takes away the outsider type if used in conjunction with things like tieflings, thereby making it susceptible to things like Charm Person. It would also let the tiefling benefit from Enlarge Person, but compared to the downside, that's a pretty minor benefit.

So, essentially, it does nothing useful.

[Gavinfoxx]

These races are human in D&D:

Aventi, Azurin, Deep Imaskari, Extaminar, Human, Complacent Human, Silverbrow Human, Illumian, Mongrelfolk, Neanderthal, Sea Kin, Underfolk, Varsharan

[Curmudgeon]

These races are human in D&D
I don't see what you're trying to accomplish by providing a list without anything to back up your assertions. The list is of mostly Humanoid (human) races, not Human subraces. Of those, many are explicitly not Human.

Aventi:
Human Blood: For all effects related to race, an aventi is considered a human.
Azurin: Very close, but not quite.
Whatever the cause, the result is an azurin child, a child who is not entirely human.
Deep Imaskari: Yes, a subrace.
Thousands of years of isolation combined with purposeful magical modifications have transformed these deep Imaskari into a human subrace adapted to life underground.
Extaminar: Not even close, because this is a distinct race that doesn't even have the human subtype.
The new race, called the extaminaars, was to bridge the gap between humanity and the yuan-ti, to be the public face of House Extaminos in Hlondeth and across the continent.
Human, Complacent Human, Silverbrow Human: explicitly Human or Human subraces.
Illumian: See the whole previous discussion.
Mongrelfolk: see Races of Destiny on page 98 where they talk about Mongrelfolk only passing as Humans.
Neanderthal: Yes, a subrace.
The neanderthals are a feral race of humans, created by the crude and violent deities of the winterlands to dwell in their frozen domains.
Sea Kin: A distinct race.
Physical Description: To a casual observer, a sea kin looks like a regular human. On closer examination, however, the differences between the races become more apparent.
Underfolk: A distinct race from Humans.
Their eyes and ears are proportionally larger than those of humans, having evolved to enable underfolk to see in pitch blackness and make out the quietest sounds.
Vasharan: Yes, a subrace.
Vasharans are humans, but they are to other humans as drow are to elves.

[Gavinfoxx]

They're all Humanoid (Human).

That makes them Human.

[dysprosium]

Debating the Human (human) [human] {kinda human} rules aside . . .

Let's ask the question this way:

Did your DM know you wanted to go chameleon when you started in the campaign with an illumian character?
If so then it is his fault for not letting you because he knew your intent. He should have ruled on this in the beginning.

Did you know you wanted to go chameleon when you started in the campaign with an illumian character?
If so then it is your fault for not getting the DM approval ahead of time.

I know that when I DM, I dislike when a player "comes up with this great idea" and just assumes that everything will be ok.

I hope this post makes sense to everyone.

[Curmudgeon]

They're all Humanoid (Human).
Even that isn't true.

[Pesimismrocks]

Humanoid (human) does not make you human for the purpose of prestige classes. Otherwise there wouldn't be illumian dependent and human dependent prestige classes. Subtype is not race.

On the other hand I can't really make an argument against considering I play an illumian chameleon, but my DM allows it anyway. I think that race dependent prestige classes are silly unless the race has a specific special ability.

[papr_weezl8472]

Sorry, but what are the two optional rules in the 'Variant: Half-Humans and Humanlike Races' supposed to be? I see "...half-humans and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype). This means such races qualify as human for the purposes of qualifying for a feat or prestige class..." but what's the other variant rule being mentioned? :smallconfused:

[Scow2]

Sorry, but what are the two optional rules in the 'Variant: Half-Humans and Humanlike Races' supposed to be? I see "...half-humans and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype). This means such races qualify as human for the purposes of qualifying for a feat or prestige class..." but what's the other variant rule being mentioned? :smallconfused:
He's treating the second line there as a variant rule - which it's not. What's there, is in fact reminder text explicitly stating that races with the Humanoid(Human) subtype qualify as human for the purposes of qualifying for a feat or prestige class.


It's pretty clear-cut there - Humanoid(Human) is all it takes to qualify for the Chameleon PrC.

[Curmudgeon]

He's treating the second line there as a variant rule - which it's not. What's there, is in fact reminder text explicitly stating that races with the Humanoid(Human) subtype qualify as human for the purposes of qualifying for a feat or prestige class.
That's an interesting assertion. Where other than inside this clearly-labeled variant rule block is this "reminder" text stated? After all, it can't be a reminder if the rules never minded to mention it anywhere else.

It's pretty clear-cut there - Humanoid(Human) is all it takes to qualify for the Chameleon PrC.
Well, then: if it's so "clear-cut", please quote the text which says so. I'm always eager to improve my knowledge of the D&D rules. :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

No, but the term is used whenever they introduce a new race, so you can make a list of D&D races. Illumian is a race, and Human is a different race. Thus Illumian isn't going to qualify you when they specify Race: Human.

Except that many creatures are given the race treatment in one place and the subrace treatment in another. Duergar, for example.

Further, we know that at the time 3.5 was made WotC understood keyword-based design, because that was already a central principle of MTG. If WotC wanted the rules for race to be anything other than an unusable mess, they would have had a keyword system in place, if not at the gates with 3.0 then at least when 3.5 came out.

[Scow2]

That's an interesting assertion. Where other than inside this clearly-labeled variant rule block is this "reminder" text stated? After all, it can't be a reminder if the rules never minded to mention it anywhere else.

Well, then: if it's so "clear-cut", please quote the text which says so. I'm always eager to improve my knowledge of the D&D rules. :smallsmile:
Right there through definition, largely. The phrasing there defines having the Humanoid(Human) subtype as qualifying as human for the purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and using magic items. The variant rule states that demihumans are treated as Humanoid(Human), and then goes on to define what that means, instead of listing that definition as another variant rule.

I think Racial Subtypes are one of those rules that got developed in late in 3rd edition, much like a number of other now-problematic rules.

[Cerlis]

the point of them being Humanoid(human) is to qualify them for things like racial magic items or Hunter Favored enemy abilities. Illumians are close to humans, like Drow are close to Wood elves, but a prestige class that required you to be a Drow wouldnt allow a wood elf.

[Psyren]

Except that many creatures are given the race treatment in one place and the subrace treatment in another. Duergar, for example.

Further, we know that at the time 3.5 was made WotC understood keyword-based design, because that was already a central principle of MTG. If WotC wanted the rules for race to be anything other than an unusable mess, they would have had a keyword system in place, if not at the gates with 3.0 then at least when 3.5 came out.

To be fair, MTG has a much, much more robust playtesting and errata process than D&D does. It has to - there are no D&D tournaments after all.

So it's less a matter of understanding and more a matter of overlooking.

In any event, I stand by the quotes I posted earlier - if they had intended Chameleons to be available to all "humanoid (humans)" - which Illumians are - they would have said so in the Illumian's "Creating X Characters" section. Instead, they gave us the tools we need to bridge the gap (i.e. the sidebar) which I have no problem approving, and hopefully the OP's DM doesn't either.

[TuggyNE]

To be fair, MTG has a much, much more robust playtesting and errata process than D&D does. It has to - there are no D&D tournaments after all.

Not anymore, you mean. I'm given to understand there were some interesting tournaments back in the day.

[Psyren]

Not anymore, you mean. I'm given to understand there were some interesting tournaments back in the day.

I wouldn't know - I joined the hobby with NWN. *shrug*

[Piggy Knowles]

In any event, I stand by the quotes I posted earlier - if they had intended Chameleons to be available to all "humanoid (humans)" - which Illumians are - they would have said so in the Illumian's "Creating X Characters" section. Instead, they gave us the tools we need to bridge the gap (i.e. the sidebar) which I have no problem approving, and hopefully the OP's DM doesn't either.

I'm not sure I agree. In the "Creating X Characters" section, when they list prestige classes, they list classes specifically made for that type of character. So, an illumian gets the loredelver and shadow sentinel classes, which are explicitly illumian only. There would be no need to list chameleon, because chameleon isn't an illumian-specific prestige class.

Now, Races of Destiny doesn't have any other non-racially specific prestige classes, so I can't compare from within the book, but if we look at Races of Stone, the dwarf entry says their prestige class options are listed as battlesmith, deepwarden and runesmith. Those are the three dwarf-only prestige classes. But it does NOT list cragtop archer, earth dreamer, iron mind or stoneblessed, despite the fact that a dwarf can also qualify for all of those.

I am solidly within the crowd that the human subtype means you qualify as a human for prestige classes. The second paragraph from the sidebar on 150 makes it pretty clear to me:



These limitations [the fact that half-orcs/elves count as orcish or elvish but not as human] mean that many options available in this book are off-limits to such races. At the DM's discretion, half-human and humanlike races can be grouped together with humans as humanoids with the human subtype (rather than their own subtype). This means that such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like.


I guess I can't really see any other way to parse this paragraph, other than:

1. Most races that are part human or human-descended are treated as their non-human race, but don't count as humans.

2. As a variant rule, you can give such races the human subtype. So, for example, a half-elf, which is currently a humanoid with the elven subtype, would now be a humanoid with the human subtype. (A later paragraph clarifies that they would still retain their elf status, too.)

3. This (ie, the fact that they are humanoids with the human subtype) means that they count as human for racial effects, including qualifying for prestige classes.

The variant rule is #2, everything else is how they assume things are working to begin with. As far as why it was never spelled out elsewhere that a humanoid (human) counts as a human - well, I can only imagine that the designers thought it already had been. After all, types and subtypes are generally what is used to determine these factors. Otherwise, why would the dragonborn template go out of its way to say that you still retain your original subtype when clarifying that you count as your original race as well? In fact, what would be the point of the human subtype, and things like the Human Heritage feat, without this rule?

My other question for your DM, if he doesn't believe that subtypes determine race, would be this: if a human fell victim to a curse that, say, changed his subtype from (human) to (orc), would you still allow him to count as a human for effects related to race? I wouldn't. Even if he still looked like a human, as a DM I would assume that race-related effects would treat him as an orc.

[danzibr]

l-luman
It's quite clear that they're Human.

[Psyren]

*snip*

All right, you've convinced me. Well put. I'd say they do in fact qualify because that statement you referenced does seem to be referring to the subtype itself rather than the variant rule.