Who would be a good replacement for Durkon?

[Mage Paradox]

Who could the party find to replace Durkon? It'd probably need to be a cleric, given Elan's healing is quite limited.

[Fishnet]

I doubt that Durkon will be replaced. I'm guessing that Malack will lose or relinquish his control on him at some point (see #879, second panel), and he will rejoin the Order. Hilarity ensues as Durkon adapts to his new undead state, plus some gnarly character growth to boot.

And whaddya bet that Kraagor's Dungeon is in the Dwarven Lands? Durkon and the Order will arrive and all sorts of havoc will happen.

Since I'm predicting stuff here, I'd also like to imagine Durkon's last panel: having seen the destruction he brings as a vampire, he gets himself a coffin and chooses to sleep in it for eternity, buried next to his ancestors. The perfect, bittersweet ending for our a character defined by his sense of duty.

[Mike Havran]

I agree that Durkon won't be replaced. We're getting close to the end, it makes no sense to change the main cast. I do think he'll join them as a vampire though.

[Finagle]

Nah, as soon as Durkon gets his free will back, he's going to turn into an agent of destruction and go back to dwarven lands at the head of an army of darkness. Thus fulfilling the prophecy. The last gate is there, too, so it meshes with the plot.

Even if the paladins join OOTS, how the heck are they going to heal? A paladin's ability isn't very much.

[137beth]

Why would one of the main protagonists change this late in the story? Okay, so TV shows do it sometimes, but that is usually because one actor wants to leave but they don't want to end the show. That hasn't happened, since there are no players/actors in OOTS.

[ZarDaranth]

I am of the opinion that New Durkon* will replace Durkon. There may no longer be a pulse in this version, but it's still a Durkon nontheless.

He's going to retain his powers, but realize that Thor won't ever take him back, so he'd probably end up worshiping Nergal like Malack does. (And if memory serves, Malack does have healing abilities under Nergal, so there wouldn't be a big deal regarding the lack of healing for the group. Probably a few wisecracks here or there).


I think the big character development will be tested when they go for Kraagor's Gate in the dwarven lands. New Durkon* will be a worshipper of Death and Destruction, ergo he'll bring that to the dwarven lands, who have likely never heard of Nergal. (Prophesy fulfilled, in a beautiful fashion)

And when they meet up with O-Chul and Lien, there's likely going to be a bit of tomfoolery to keep the whole "undead servant of death and destruction" part of New Durkon* under wraps. O-Chul would likely figure it out, only to keep it a secret, knowing full well about how to keep important secrets for the greater good.



*New Durkon is not remotely related to New Coke in any way, except for the underlying evil necessary for the manufacturing of both, and the fact that the only way to get rid of both involves fire.

[Morty]

I also don't expect Durkon to be replaced. Either he will join the OotS as a vampire or the Order will just have to make do without a cleric.

[cheesecake]

Durkon will be back in the order as a vampire. He will probably accidentally bring death and destruction to dwarven lands.

[veilrap]

Seems like the obvious choice for a new cleric for the Order is Red Cloak!

[Cizak]

Yeah, I don't think Durkon will be replaced. Some other characters will probably be involved in the final battle (at the very least O-chul) bit not as replacements for Durkon.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why Nergal? The Northern Gods already have a deity dedicated to the dead--Hela.

[ZarDaranth]

I would assume that due to the fact that, in order to fulfill the prophecy seen by the High Priest of Thor, Durkon has to bring Death and Destruction.

Hela is only the goddess of Death, from what I remember. Nergal is Death and Destruction. If Hela is Death and Destruction, then my argument is invalid.

(Also, I'd assume that since Durkon's rebirth is in the Western Gods' territory, he'd fall under their jurisdiction)

[Deepbluediver]

It'd probably need to be a cleric, given Elan's healing is quite limited.

Just in Core, a druid can make an acceptable healbot for the party, if that's they way you want to go with it.

There are other options from various splatbooks, although the comic usually doesn't involve them much (though Thog did have the dungeon-crasher variant, so it's not exactly outside the realm of possibility).

[theinsulabot]

Never been quite sure what the fascination with durkula joining the order is. Malack's probably takes him to the dwarven homeland because he and Tarquin are nosing around the last gate, after Tarquin and co are killed, whoever the current high Priest of Thor is resurrects him.

[Grogmir]

I'm certainly in the Durkula will be the next cleric of OotS.

Think there should be a few spoilers on this thread. But i'll spell it out from on the origin of the PCs

Durkon's backstory is he got banished from his home because "The next time he returns he will bring death and destruction"

Now I believe normally Nergal domains are Death, Earth, Evil

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Gods_%28Gods_and_Men_Supplement%29

But this is directly contradicted in comic by Malack himself.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

Thus the reasoning people believe he'll worship Nergal and not Hela

Its going to be a very interesting story line and might not be a happy one for D.


Never been quite sure what the fascination with durkula joining the order is. Malack's probably takes him to the dwarven homeland because he and Tarquin are nosing around the last gate, after Tarquin and co are killed, whoever the current high Priest of Thor is resurrects him.

Maybe, but I just don't see him being away from the Order. He's still a main character, a member of the OotS - he's not been downgraded to B-List protagonist and being one wouldn't allow him the character growth, rejoining the order would.

But I agree until we see its in comic thats just speculation.

[Lord Ensifer]

I don't know if I buy the "death and destruction via Nergal-worship" theory. It's very elegant, so it might happen, but it seems out of character* for Durkon to switch worship deliberately, especially to an evil god outside the Norse pantheon.

I'm favoring literal death & destruction as Malack brings him to Kraagor's gate.

*admittedly, he has become a semi-mindless vampire, so take that with very high sodium levels

[Bulldog Psion]

How about if the Order defects to Redcloak's side, end up getting magically transformed into goblins, and help Redcloak win control of the last gate and destroy Xykon, thus allowing the Dark One to found a new order based on peace, love, and equality between all species? :smallsmile:

How's that for a theory?

[ZarDaranth]

About as likely as my theory that Belkar's "demise" just means that he gets cursed with a permanent stat boost to wisdom and he regrets his misdeeds and becomes Emo-Belkar, Goth Ranger. He then takes up the role of "Grumpy Short Person" for the Order of the Stick, and has a severe hatred of trees and the undead.

[WoLong]

Durkon should definitely be replaced by MitD

[SaintRidley]

I'm thinking Durkon will be the new Durkon.

[Comrade]

I'm thinking Durkon will be the new Durkon.

Really? Y'know, I'd thought maybe Durkon would make a good replacement for Durkon, but I'd never actually considered Durkon. Now that you put it that way, I think Durkon might make a good Durkon. Maybe not a better Durkon than Durkon, but still an acceptable Durkon.

[davidbofinger]

Why would one of the main protagonists change this late in the story? Okay, so TV shows do it sometimes, but that is usually because one actor wants to leave but they don't want to end the show. That hasn't happened, since there are no players/actors in OOTS.

It happened before. When the actress who played Roy got pregnant they had Roy die for a while. She put all her afterlife scenes in the can, had the kid, and came back in time for resurrection.

Really talented actress. You can see what she looks like without the prosthetics and makeup, starting with this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0235.html)

[Nymrod]

We have no idea how Durkon will act once he has free will. If it happens reasonably soon, he will just be the Durkon we knew with a significant blood hunger. I do wonder though how being turned to a vampire will affect his beliefs. I'd expect Durkon to remain loyal to Thor even if Thor would stop granting him spells tbh unless he actually has forsaken his god because he failed to help him in his hour of need. It could happen if Malack gets Durkon to do something truly horrific before he gets free will but otherwise I don't see it.

Moreover I don't see why Durkon would have to chose between Hel and Nergal. If he converted to a new deity it would be because his character development would lead him there. I cannot understand how his personality would shift that he worships either a god of death and destruction or a godess of death and decay.

Truth be told I only see Durkon worshiping Thor because of dwarven cultural pressure. If he had his pick of Norse Gods, Heimdall would have made much more sense. Maybe Tyr of Forseti but certainly not Thor.

[BaronOfHell]

Lads and Gents, I don't think this thread is about who you think will replace Durkon, thread title:
Who would be a good replacement for Durkon?

OP:

Who could the party find to replace Durkon?

I am not certain if the question is in regard to story telling or D&D mechanics. The suggestion of another cleric tells me it's from a D&D mechanics perspective, in which case I've no ideas about the details, but I imagine a cleric is the best bet. Someone also suggested a Druid.

From a storytelling point of view, it'd obviously be anyone and no one.:smalltongue: ... no scratch that and let's say someone in stead:smallbiggrin:

[SaintRidley]

Really? Y'know, I'd thought maybe Durkon would make a good replacement for Durkon, but I'd never actually considered Durkon. Now that you put it that way, I think Durkon might make a good Durkon. Maybe not a better Durkon than Durkon, but still an acceptable Durkon.

There's a certain Durkonitude about Durkon that makes me think he can fill Durkon's shoes. I do agree though - Durkon is no Durkon, but isn't that the point? Durkon can fill Durkon's role in a way that would be impossible for Durkon to do. We need Durkon as the Durkon in order to see a different take on what Durkon has provided for the party. Plus, Durkon's character development wasn't going anywhere, so if we allow Durkon to take over we can see something new and different.

[Kish]

From a storytelling point of view, it'd obviously be anyone and no one.:smalltongue: ... no scratch that and let's say someone in stead:smallbiggrin:
I'm afraid I'm going to insist on sticking with no one instead.

Bringing in a new sixth member for an ensemble cast this late in a story is the kind of thing that Doesn't Work. If Durkon doesn't return to the Order, than his slot should stay empty.

[Morty]

I'm not sure why so many people are unwilling to accept that maybe the Order will go on without a fully capable healer.

[ZarDaranth]

I would say that a healer is necessary because as non-optimized PC's, the Order does tend to attract a lot of off-panel healing. I mean, unless they take Haley's fortune and buy a ton of below cost healing potions, there's gonna be a few deaths in the war of the paper cuts.

[Magesmiley]

The fact that Elan's curing abilities have been explicitly mentioned is, I think, a strong indicator that Durkon won't be with the OOTS for awhile.

One of the paladins, and O-Chul in particular seem to be the strongest candidates. With Miko, Rich has already shown us how he feels a paladin shouldn't be played. So, I think that there is potentially a lot of fun in seeing how he feels one should be played.

[Morty]

I would say that a healer is necessary because as non-optimized PC's, the Order does tend to attract a lot of off-panel healing. I mean, unless they take Haley's fortune and buy a ton of below cost healing potions, there's gonna be a few deaths in the war of the paper cuts.

Or they will have to start doing their best to avoid injuries knowing that Durkon won't be there to patch them up afterwards and they'll have to rely on Elan's healing.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Durkon did very little in-combat healing. The between-combat healing role can be fulfilled by items.

[ZarDaranth]

If this was any other adventuring party, I'd agree; but given that the closest thing to planning the Order does is planning on running away, I'm not so sure that's possible.

And any plan that relies on Elan's usefulness is bound to fail.

[Sir_Leorik]

Durkon did very little in-combat healing. The between-combat healing role can be fulfilled by items.

That isn't true. That's all Durkon did in both fights with Miko, and it took up quite a bit of his time during the Battle of Azure City.

And while you're correct that magic items can mean life and death when there's no cleric around, they are not a replacement. Scrolls require a caster with the appropriate spell on their spell list and an ability score high enough to cast it. That rules out Belkar, who may not live long enough to be in the running. Wands are expensive, and they require the user to have the spell on their spell list or to make a Use Magic Device check. That would allow Elan to use Wands of Cure Light Wounds, but the cost of higher level wands would grow prohibitive.

So yeah, they need to find a Cleric, Druid or Healer pronto. Or they could invite the 4th Dimension's Roy to serve as their Warlord...

[Morty]

If this was any other adventuring party, I'd agree; but given that the closest thing to planning the Order does is planning on running away, I'm not so sure that's possible.

And any plan that relies on Elan's usefulness is bound to fail.

After all, there is no such thing as character development, people overcoming their limitations and adapting to a new situation.

[137beth]

After all, there is no such thing as character development, people overcoming their limitations and adapting to a new situation.

Absolutely not. V acts exactly the same as he/she/it did when he/she/it talked all the goblins to sleep without casting anything.

[Prospero7]

*New Durkon is not remotely related to New Coke in any way, except for the underlying evil necessary for the manufacturing of both, and the fact that the only way to get rid of both involves fire.

Ok. I got quite a good laugh from that. Thank you for brightening my Friday! :smallbiggrin:

/End Thread-derail...

[rodneyAnonymous]

That isn't true. That's all Durkon did in both fights with Miko, and it took up quite a bit of his time during the Battle of Azure City.

Yes it is. He was explicitly not participating in the fights against Miko except for keeping the other party members from dying, and the structure of the Battle of Azure City was unique among all the fights in the comic. In normal situations, Durkon doesn't usually cast heal spells during battle.

Not having powerful buffs will hurt, but the Order can manage without a cleric. I was thinking potions.

[Sir_Leorik]

Yes it is. He was explicitly not participating in the fights against Miko except for keeping the other party members from dying, and the structure of the Battle of Azure City was unique among all the fights in the comic. In normal situations, Durkon doesn't usually cast heal spells during battle.

Not having powerful buffs will hurt, but the Order can manage without a cleric. I was thinking potions.

Potions costs money. You need access to a potion seller. While they could shop here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html), I think that place went out of business after their last five "sales".

Taking a potion out is a move action (unless you use a Handy Haversack, in which case its a free action) and drinking it is a standard action. Pouring a potion down someone's throat is a full-round action.

Relying on potions is a bad idea. A better idea in 3.5 is to have a cleric, but to have members of the party each purchase a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (CL 1) for 750 GP. Back in the Living Greyhawk campaign run by the RPGA, the fan nickname for them were "happy sticks": 1d8+1 hp back per charge, keeping the Cleric from needing to burn spells to heal the party. (I think that abuse of Wands of Cure Light Wounds is what may have ultimately led to healing surges in 4E, but that's another topic entirely.)

In any event, your assumption that a party of four to five adventurers can get by without a Cleric is probably based on an optimized party, not an average party. The OotS's ability scores, class features, spells, equipment, feats and skills, are chosen by an author looking for either comedy or dramatic tension; they are not an optimized party of PCs. You're also ignoring that the OotS, despite their medium awareness, view themselves as people, not as collections of hit points, AC, saving throw bonuses and Clerical Domains. They didn't just lose a healer; they lost a good friend, a loyal comrade, a confidante; someone who hangs out with you that you like, but is so quiet and self-effacing that you only notice his or her absence when they are gone. You might be able to replace that lost friend by finding a new friend who reminds you of him or her. There's a name for replacing a lost friend with vials of colored liquid that make you feel "better".

[Gorfnod]

Who would be a good replacement for Durkon?

Nobody... thats who!!!

cry...sob

Poor Durkon, your life ended too soon.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Taking a potion out is a move action (unless you use a Handy Haversack, in which case its a free action) and drinking it is a standard action. Pouring a potion down someone's throat is a full-round action.

The time it takes to drink potions is irrelevant if we are talking about out-of-combat healing.


Relying on potions is a bad idea. A better idea in 3.5 is to have a cleric...

Sure is.

[ZarDaranth]

After all, there is no such thing as character development, people overcoming their limitations and adapting to a new situation.


While I do agree that change is possible, the level of change necessary to facilitate effective defensive stratagem is beyond what the Order can do, in my opinion. Elan is still dumb, Belkar reckless, Roy a damage sponge, V still over thinks, and Haley is the closest to being optimized for survival.

They need a healer.

[JusticeZero]

Scrolls require a caster with the appropriate spell on their spell list and an ability score high enough to cast it.. Wands are expensive, and they require the user to have the spell on their spell list or to make a Use Magic Device check. That would allow Elan to use Wands of Cure Light Wounds, but the cost of higher level wands would grow prohibitive..
It's quite doable. Haley can use the status effect repairing wands, Elan can use the cure wands. It's a bit costly, but it's less costly than an extra split. In downtime, you can use stacks of the low level ones, because you have time to burn. Combat healing is usually a poor use of resources, and Elan can use it. It takes some refining of team tactics, mind you.. which they arguably need to get down anyhow.

[JusticeZero]

Elan is still dumb, Belkar reckless, Roy a damage sponge, V still over thinks, and Haley is the closest to being optimized for survival. They need a healer.
Everything you said, to me, says "They need to go through a couple fights with the mindset of "Oh crud, Durkon isn't here to patch me up if I do some bonehead cowboy stunt! We need to up our game!"

[Quelin]

Perhaps Durkon brings death and destruction in that he is there racing ahead of the goblin army to get to the last gate. Whether or not he changes religion or is a vampire, he could have the bad fortune to be in the party. Being in the party is clearly bad for the people around you. Look at all the destruction that has followed them around!

This is like when your band of heroes shows up at a town and the townfolk chase you away with pitchforks because adventurers or heroes always = bad stuff happening.

As far as other healing options we will see.

[Rusty]

First off :( Durkon...I miss you already.

Anyway, the only logical Durkon replacement IMO would be...Hilgya Firehelm!

It would be beautiful irony if she listened to Durkon and changed her ways, only to find him to have turned evil (albeit not of his own volition).

Of course, the chances of this happening are astronomically low given she disappeared even before the end of the FIRST book, but it would be pretty funny. (Then again, Zz'dtri came back...)

I don't think Durkula can work with the Order of the Stick as I don't think they could reconcile working with a known vampire, especially Durkon, considering he had an extreme hatred for all things undead. There's no way Roy would work with an undead Durkon, because he would see it as a betrayal to his friend (as would the living Durkon).

[Winter Light]

I honestly think the biggest argument in favor of "Durkula will rejoin the order or have his spot filled by someone else" is...

...The fact that we're about to lose Belkar, probably permanently, and I'm not sure the Giant will really want to go through the next 2-3 books (I believe that's how much we're expecting?) with only four main protagonists.

[Aasimar]

Here's a list of replacements who might be good enough that their replacing Durkon or Belkar (eventually) might give the Order a chance.

Rand Al'Thor
Batman
Yoda
Elminster
Superman

[Rusty]

I honestly think the biggest argument in favor of "Durkula will rejoin the order or have his spot filled by someone else" is...

...The fact that we're about to lose Belkar, probably permanently, and I'm not sure the Giant will really want to go through the next 2-3 books (I believe that's how much we're expecting?) with only four main protagonists.
Well, we know he is going to breathe his last breath. But we're not completely sure when that will happen. For all we know that won't happen for another book, even. If it does happen soon, we'll probably see a lot more of Hinjo or something. I agree that we probably won't have just four main protagonists, but given it may be possible to skip years, it may not be too long before we see either one again in some form. That is if Belkar does die soon.

That said, I think the Giant cares more about writing a good story than adhering to certain assumed parameters. So if it's in the story that we DO only have four protagonists for a while, that is something we'll just have to accept. I don't expect that will happen either, though, but I also don't feel it is strong evidence for Durkula to join.

[Heksefatter]

Personally I think that Durkula will rejoing the Order, at least as a hangaround. We know that Durkula will return posthumously to the dwarven homelands and brining death and destruction. That implies that he will remain undead and possibly in the company of Malack.

There are also narrative reasons. If Malack and Durkon or any other of Tarquin's cronies travel to the dwarven homelands as the Order's enemies, it would resemble the current plotline too much - a threeway race between Order, Tarquin and cronies and Xykon.

I am not sure of this, but my money is on Tarquin/Malack coming to a modicum of understanding with the Order. Maybe Tarquin decides that he can't really use the Gate and that it is better to help the Order stop Xykon.

Also, I somehow have difficulty seeing an entirely new character joining the Order, or someone we've not seen that much, such as Hilgya Firehelm. But who knows?

[Bulldog Psion]

As I said, I think Durkon is going to return to the dwarven homelands, possibly in great wrath at his exile. Seeing him laying waste to the dwarves with undead treants would be an intriguing twist. :smallcool:

Random dwarven sentinel: "The trees be attacking!"

:durkon: (grimly) "Aye."

[Dire Lemming]

Durkon will almost certainly be replaced by Leeky Windstaff, and Kitty could take the place of Belkar.

:smallamused:

[ManuelSacha]

Long before Durkon died, I was convinced that the only person in the OotS world that could possibly join the Order is O-Chul.

The Order has the four "main" roles covered (fighter, cleric, thief, wizard), plus two of the three go-to, multi-task, "fifth spot" classes (bard and ranger). The other one is paladin, and it's intuitive how a pally's abilities could integrate well with the order.
Now that Durkon is gone, O-Chul might do some healing, together with Elan.

Storyline wise, he's also the only person outside the Order to have fought Xykon directly (and lived to tell the tale), and he has the motivation to sacrifice himself even more to do what's right.

Oh, and he is also the only other high level good-aligned character in the whole world... with the possible exception of Vaarsuvius' mentioned but never truly seen epic (?) Master.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Hilgya. She will show up with Durkon's Love Children, Death and Destruction, and assume the role of Spiritual Councilor to Roy.

Why not? She levels up at the same speed as Durkon (same as Crystal and Haley), is the only "not provably dead" member of the original Linear Guild, and she's a Dwarf. Perfect fit.

She may also have some clerical trick to bring Durkon back from vampirehood, although Durkon may have to convert from Thor to Loki...

Any thoughts?

[rodneyAnonymous]

Durkon will almost certainly be replaced by Leeky Windstaff, and Kitty could take the place of Belkar.

Kitty got sliced in half by Roy.

[Prowl]

Kitty got sliced in half by Roy.

He got better.
















(well, maybe not but who can resist a good Monty Python reference?)

[Flipster77]

It happened before. When the actress who played Roy got pregnant they had Roy die for a while. She put all her afterlife scenes in the can, had the kid, and came back in time for resurrection.

Really talented actress. You can see what she looks like without the prosthetics and makeup, starting with this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0235.html)

:smallbiggrin: Ha ha nice one!

Before reading this thread, I wasn't even considering Durkon/Durkula rejoining the Order, but I guess it could happen if enough of his personality is regained at some point.

I like the Hilgya Firehelm theory, but also think it's pretty unlikely.

As for who could replace Durkon, assuming they want a "replacement" (couldn't type that without the quotes, no one can replace Durkon :smallfrown:) ... hard to say. I can't think of any good aligned characters which have been shown to be effective at healing.

[Sir_Leorik]

Here's a list of replacements who might be good enough that their replacing Durkon or Belkar (eventually) might give the Order a chance.

Rand Al'Thor
Batman
Yoda
Elminster
Superman

Hey, if you're going that far afield, then there's only one suitable replacement for Durkon: The Doctor! Think about it, the Doctor is wise, older than the rest of the party, has a vaguely Scottish accent (or a really heavy Scottish accent if we're talking the Ninth Doctor), and he's taken the Leadership Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership), so the OotS will get one to two lower level NPCs to boot!

To replace Belkar there are a few good choices who have already appeared in the comic:

Buffy Summers has already turned down Roy's job offer, but hey, maybe she's available? Plus the OotS are fighting Vampires as well as Liches now!

Then there's Batman! He's appeared twice already in the comic and has the skills to survive the harsh tasks the OotS face... except there's the whole "code against killing". I don't think Batman will agree that it's okay to kill Goblins or Drow just because they're Goblins or Drow.

Why is Rand al'Thor a suitable candidate for anything but a straight jacket and a padded cell down the hall from the Joker?

Yoda prefers not to outshine others, playing the role of "wise, trickster mentor"; this comic already had two of those: Julio Scoundrel and Lord Shojo.

As for Elminster... you're a bit out of the loop aren't you? Elminster is in retirement. He took a lot of mystic backlash from Mystra's murder and the sundering of the Weave. He's spent the last century in seclusion yelling at PCs in the Living Forgotten Realms campaign to "Git off my lawn ya no-good 4E players!" :smallbiggrin:

[Bongos]

How about that cleric from Greysky City?

[EmperorSarda]

Vampire Durkon is a good replacement for Durkon. Sure, the gate may have to explode first and Malack will have to see the danger that Xykon presents first, but a good diplomacy check will get Malack to release Durkon from Thrallhood. Which incidentally fulfills his prophesy about returning home posthumously.

[137beth]

How about that cleric from Greysky City?

Aside from the fact that it would require replacing a protagonist with a nameless insignificant plot device?

Well other than THAT, it sounds reasonable:smalltongue:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

:smallbiggrin: Ha ha nice one!

I like the Hilgya Firehelm theory, but also think it's pretty unlikely.



If I may be so bold, may I ask "Why Not?"

I've brought up Higlya Firehelm's return to the strip more than once, and it seems as if many people will say she won't, but most won't answer why not.

There are a couple things in place to show a precedent:
Zz'dtri returned, even thought he had been carted off by the Lawyers.
Crystal advanced "for free" to remain a rival to Haley

People often complain that Durkon never gets Character Development. Returning to Human Dwarven Form really wouldn't be character development, nor would remaining a vampire. The first would just be a return to the status quo, while the second would not be Durkon changing of his own will. That's what character development is all about. Not the clothes you wear, but who you are inside them.

Suddenly discovering he has children and his own sense of responsibility could make for some very interesting character development...

(Edited to correct Durkon's Race)

[Flipster77]

If I may be so bold, may I ask "Why Not?"

Sure!

To be honest, your question made me reassess why I didn't think Hilgya will return.

I had this vague memory that I'd read somewhere that Rich said he was done with the character, but when I went back and read the source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13748643&postcount=12) (thank you Index of the Giant's Comments), I realised I could have made the wrong assumption.

I had assumed that he was done with Hilgya, since he said that he still would've used a new unnamed cleric as the Thieves' Guild cleric even if he had thought of her as an option. It could be that he still has plans for her, but they didn't involve appearing as the unnamed cleric of Loki.
I was definitely surprised when Zz'dtri returned, which does leave Hilgya as the only still living original Linear Guild member not to make a re-appearance.

Anyway, far be it from me to interpret the Will of the Author.


Suddenly discovering he has children and his own sense of responsibility could make for some very interesting character development...
Indeed it could, I had not considered that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Minor nitpick, SHO. Durkon would be returning to DWARVEN Form, not human.

As penance, you must locate a decent mug of lager for the bearded one. True, this will entail substantial sampling, but no one ever said penance was easy.

[Xenrei]

I'm on board with the Hilgya theory. We haven't seen her in years. I mean, hey! Leeky Windstaff and Sir Francois were at the dream wedding! She's about due for a rerun too! :smallbiggrin:

[Sunken Valley]

Either Miko or a still Vampire Durkon.

[Xenrei]

Alternate theory:

What about that one cleric of Loki we met in Greysky City? He seems rather powerful, plus he is a tough fighter now, thanks to Belkar!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Minor nitpick, SHO. Durkon would be returning to DWARVEN Form, not human.

As penance, you must locate a decent mug of lager for the bearded one. True, this will entail substantial sampling, but no one ever said penance was easy.
:smallredface: Yep, return to Dwarven form! Many ales, lagers and stouts, plus the occasional bock and dopplebock must be sampled to ensure only the highest quality is delivered in my most sincere apology! :smallbiggrin:

Alternate theory:

What about that one cleric of Loki we met in Greysky City? He seems rather powerful, plus he is a tough fighter now, thanks to Belkar!

Hmm... Maybe, but why? We have more emotionally "invested" in Hilgya than unnamed Cleric of Loki. And while UCoL might be little more powerful after his encounter with the Belkster, Hilgya's possible auto-advance would keep her leveled up with Durkon.

[137beth]

Hilgya's possible auto-advance would keep her leveled up with Durkon.

Who we know was definitely a higher level than UCoL, since resurrection was above his caster level.

[CRtwenty]

I'm guessing that Hilgya will return once they finally reach the Dwarven Lands, however I doubt she'll join up with the OotS. My vote's for the Order remaining down a man while Durkon is a vamp.

[Aasimar]

My guess would be vampire Durkon who doesn't turn back into a dwarf.

[AstralFire]

Nice to see that other people (finally) believe that Elan can take Durkon's spot, via us not being overly beholden to 3.5 by-the-book campaigning. I first brought it up a while ago and I got shouted down pretty hard.

In order of likeliness, my predictions:
- Durkon remains a vampire and rejoins the team after Malack and Tarquin are either blown apart or terrified by Xykon. Problems? How do you keep the Order from staking Durkon and bringing him back to life when they return to that big magical emporium?
- Durkon joins Team Evil via their superior magical might after Team Tarquin gets blown up. Durkon thus becomes an antagonist/dude in distress to be freed as a secondary objective. Elan becomes primary healer. Dealing without a healer becomes an interesting story element as a result.

Durkon will not remain under Malack's control. Team Tarquin has to be wrapped up before Xykon is dealt with, or you have a Scouring of the Shire scenario which makes for a messy ending. It's too late to introduce a new character as a primary character. Other possible substitutes don't work:

O'Chul's awesome, but he's essentially a Fighter mechanically, not having much of any formal Paladin training. The rest of the party already has two or three people with personal zeal to take out Xykon, so he adds nothing story-wise. He serves nearly no purpose to the team by being added to it.

Hilgya doesn't make any sense - Zz'dtri was brought back for a minor role. He was an amusing throwback, not a major arc character.

The Cleric of Loki has no currently presented story reason to join the Order.

[Ashiver]

The only cleric I can think of who could be high enough level to help them (assuming she has been leveling all this time) would be Durkon's former lover, Hilgya.
She could show up and want to try to help kill and resurrect Durkon. But as others have pointed out, that might not be until everyone is heading to Kraagor's gate which is likely in the dwarven lands. In the meantime I think the party is going to just have to deal with Elan's limited healing.

[Anatares]

What about Vaarsuvius?

It's been entirely too long since I played 3.5, but I thought Wizards and other Arcane casters could get healing spells as well - Isn't that why Elan's got some? Just maybe 1-2 caster levels later than their cleric friends. And V's got this whole buff-and-support role he was trying to take on before his latest depression... I think if he just remembered to meditate on some healing magic instead of extra fireballs he could be an effective healer.

If someone could either confirm whether or not I'm talking out of my ass that'd be awesome XD

[Kish]

What about Vaarsuvius?

It's been entirely too long since I played 3.5, but I thought Wizards and other Arcane casters could get healing spells as well - Isn't that why Elan's got some?
No. Bards get some healing spells (not Restoration, not Resurrection, Elan is nowhere near replacing Durkon ever). Sorcerers and wizards never do. The closest they can come is using Limited Wish and Wish to duplicate cleric spells.

[SaintRidley]

No. Bards get some healing spells (not Restoration, not Resurrection, Elan is nowhere near replacing Durkon ever). Sorcerers and wizards never do. The closest they can come is using Limited Wish and Wish to duplicate cleric spells.

Well, certain prestige classes give the option of getting healing spells - I'm thinking of Recaster as an example which allows Changeling Wizards and Sorcerers to add two spells to their spells known list or spellbooks, from any spell list).

But yeah, out of the box, Sorcerers and Wizards don't get healing magic and Bards get such piddly amounts of it that you're better off without.

[Anatares]

Well, certain prestige classes give the option of getting healing spells - I'm thinking of Recaster as an example which allows Changeling Wizards and Sorcerers to add two spells to their spells known list or spellbooks, from any spell list).

But yeah, out of the box, Sorcerers and Wizards don't get healing magic and Bards get such piddly amounts of it that you're better off without.

My bad then, thank you both for the clarification.

[Magesmiley]

Nice to see that other people (finally) believe that Elan can take Durkon's spot, via us not being overly beholden to 3.5 by-the-book campaigning. I first brought it up a while ago and I got shouted down pretty hard.

In order of likeliness, my predictions:
- Durkon remains a vampire and rejoins the team after Malack and Tarquin are either blown apart or terrified by Xykon. Problems? How do you keep the Order from staking Durkon and bringing him back to life when they return to that big magical emporium?
- Durkon joins Team Evil via their superior magical might after Team Tarquin gets blown up. Durkon thus becomes an antagonist/dude in distress to be freed as a secondary objective. Elan becomes primary healer. Dealing without a healer becomes an interesting story element as a result.

Durkon will not remain under Malack's control. Team Tarquin has to be wrapped up before Xykon is dealt with, or you have a Scouring of the Shire scenario which makes for a messy ending. It's too late to introduce a new character as a primary character. Other possible substitutes don't work:



Having reread the prophecy from the Priest of Odin (On the Origins of PCs) regarding Durkon, I think that there is a lot that has to happen still while he is a vampire. There is also the likelihood that the final gate (and thus most of the action after Girard's Gate is resolved) is in dwarven lands. I think Durkon is going to be opposing the order for a long time - probably on par with the amount of time Roy spent dead.

And as a result of that, I believe that the Order is going to have to have another long-term member.

[brionl]

OMG! I just had a horrible thought! What if Ted McGinley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_McGinley#Career) replaces Durkon?

[Kish]

Having reread the prophecy from the Priest of Odin (On the Origins of PCs) regarding Durkon, I think that there is a lot that has to happen still while he is a vampire. There is also the likelihood that the final gate (and thus most of the action after Girard's Gate is resolved) is in dwarven lands. I think Durkon is going to be opposing the order for a long time - probably on par with the amount of time Roy spent dead.

And as a result of that, I believe that the Order is going to have to have another long-term member.
The Order didn't have a new long-term member while Roy was dead though.

Or are you counting Celia as an Order member? Hinjo?