Gestalt Barb//Cleric help

[Asteron]

We are just starting Red Hand of Doom with gestalt characters. We currently have 3 PCs: A calfolk Mess (Urban Druid/Urban Ranger//Marshal/Rogue/Swordsage heading for Bloodclaw Master), a SS proggesion Kelvezu (nerfed a bit)//Wizard (heading for Incantatrix) and a Half-Minotaur Goliath Barbarian//Cleric. We all leveled up to level 5 after last nights session.

My question is for the Barb//Cleric (as the title of the thread so obviously points out.) The player is brand new to D&D and really has no idea what to do. He is pretty much going solely on what he thinks makes sense for the character. I'm trying to help with suggestions, but I'm at a bit of a loss right now. Any suggestions are nice.

Here are his stats:

STR: 34
Dex: 14
Con: 24
Int: 12
Wis: 20
Cha: 14

Feats:
Power Attack
Knockback
Combat Reflexes
(I've forgotten the other feat)

2 Flaws
Shaky
Poor Reflexes

The player is pretty adamant about the Barbarian part. The cleric won't change either. Pretty much looking for feat/PrC options.

[Fouredged Sword]

Go straight barbarian 20 / cleric 20. Pure gold here. A dash of fighter can be nice, but really nothing else is needed per say.

Repeat after me
- Divine power - Bear's endurance - Wind Wall - mountain rage!.

Now things can't hit him with arrows, and are forced to run through his reach. He is really, really strong. He should be power attacking with a greatsword.

[ksbsnowowl]

Are you planning to alter the foes in RHoD? Or are you just using the stock monster stats from the book?

Because if your other two party members are anything like the Barb//Cleric... they will tear the published adventure in half.

[Gerrtt]

Anyone else weirded out by the fact that a brand new player is using gestalt, templates and flaws all at the same time?

Personally, I like to introduce rules to my new players slowly.

With barbarian in play and power attack already in the mix you might as well let him retrain to do spirit lion totem barbarian to get pounce and throw in leap attack/shock trooper etc.

[ksbsnowowl]

Anyone else weirded out by the fact that a brand new player is using gestalt, templates and flaws all at the same time?
Yeah, I found that odd, too.

I'm running a gestalt game, but my new player entering at 12th level was just a human, straight-rogue up one side, and Fighter/Swashbuckler up the other. He didn't want to get too complicated, and I commend him for it. He made it pretty much as simple as he could coming into a 12th level gestalt game.

That said, maybe the OP's player can handle all the fiddly bits. I know I wouldn't have been as a new player, though.

[Gerrtt]

Heck...when I was a new player I didn't realize my character could cast spells till I was level 3...and I liked it!

Actually I didn't like it, but my party liked it when they realized I could cast cure spells among all the other spells a druid can cast.

[Immabozo]

I think War Hulk from Miniatures Handbook fits in nicely with the Barbarian for PrC, and the 3/4 BAB from cleric will stack VERY nicely. (The War Hulk gets +2 str every level instead of BAB) This is assuming your DM lets the Golliath's powerful build qualify for the pre-reques. Otherwise, gotta find another source of large size. (there is a belt from the Magic Item Compendium that will do it)

feats, knockback, combat reflexes and power attack are all good, solid choices. I suggest Shock Trooper, leap attack, and he should get Endurance (pre-req) and Standfast Determination. My warhulk with steadfast determination never had to make fort saves because he auto saved anything them DM ever through at us and his will save became a REALLY good save (+19 when raging)

[Asteron]

I'm not the DM, just another player. The DM is adjusting the enemies in the adventure (usuing the handbook by Saintheart, I think.)

The player is pretty smart and will pick things up pretty quickly. He is already improvising stuff and making the most of his options.


I think War Hulk from Miniatures Handbook fits in nicely with the Barbarian for PrC, and the 3/4 BAB from cleric will stack VERY nicely. (The War Hulk gets +2 str every level instead of BAB) This is assuming your DM lets the Golliath's powerful build qualify for the pre-reques. Otherwise, gotta find another source of large size. (there is a belt from the Magic Item Compendium that will do it)

feats, knockback, combat reflexes and power attack are all good, solid choices. I suggest Shock Trooper, leap attack, and he should get Endurance (pre-req) and Standfast Determination. My warhulk with steadfast determination never had to make fort saves because he auto saved anything them DM ever through at us and his will save became a REALLY good save (+19 when raging)

He is a Half-Minotaur, so he is large from that. The problem with War Hulk is that it makes his mental skills count as if he has 0 ranks in them. Not crippling, but he was thinking about going Fist of the Forrest for the Con bonus to AC.

[Immabozo]

He is a Half-Minotaur, so he is large from that. The problem with War Hulk is that it makes his mental skills count as if he has 0 ranks in them. Not crippling, but he was thinking about going Fist of the Forrest for the Con bonus to AC.

for one who is so into flavor, I see this as a bad choice, without further information. Also, 2 wasted feats and a role playing disadvantage is pretty bad for unarmored con to AC, that is only marginally better then a monk's wisdom to AC. I think a better choice would be a mithral full plate. That is better and he gets the benefits of war hulk. And, honestly, reach + combat reflexes (with good to decent dex) + power attacking + knockback is an incredible case in the "best defense is a good offense" argument.

He should be getting str + 4 (size bonus) + power attack (x2 for 2 handed, X3 for leap attack, RAI argument may need to be had for this). My level 14 war hulk was getting a +43 on his bull rush attempts every hit, hitting 3 squares and getting 6 AoO per round (as long as you win by 5, you push them back 10 feet, then they can provoke another AoO) and any that got close enough to swing at me, I had great AC and huge HP, so no one was ever able to deal enough damage in melee because no one could get close enough.

Combat brute is another feat the makes this build disgusting. Under certain circumstances, increasing power attack on a 2 handed leap attack from 1-3 attack-damage ratio to 1-4 (which helps knockback) and then as an always static effect, whenever you bull rush someone, you get a +1 untyped bonus to hit and damage against that person in the following round. So that +43 bullrush, could become +49 (for my character) for a 50 - 69 bullrush, even if they are a great worm dragon or a mountain giant or titan, you are pushing them around, anyone else, your are throwing around FAR and getting HUGE bonuses to hit and damage in the next round against them. And then if they provoke attacks of opportunity, it gets even sillier.

[Asteron]

Yeah, FotF got nixed when I told him about War Hulk (which I had forgotten about...) He liked it pretty well.

[Immabozo]

Yeah, FotF got nixed when I told him about War Hulk (which I had forgotten about...) He liked it pretty well.

I do too, the flavor on top of the barbarian is just all too perfect and fitting! I think you will be hard pressed to find a more fitting flavor wise core class into PrC.

Lemme know how it goes! I'll be excited to know how it turns out for him

[Namfuak]

This might sound weird, but he should do a cloistered cleric. All the downsides are covered by the barbarian side (BAB and HD) and the only thing he "loses" is heavy armor, which he can't use anyway if he wants the barbarian's fast movement (or anything that replaces it, assuming your DM rules that way). Travel Devotion from Complete Champion will probably be helpful, and the travel domain itself is not too shabby. If he decides against war hulk, knowledge devotion would also be pretty good.

[Immabozo]

This might sound weird, but he should do a cloistered cleric. All the downsides are covered by the barbarian side (BAB and HD) and the only thing he "loses" is heavy armor, which he can't use anyway if he wants the barbarian's fast movement (or anything that replaces it, assuming your DM rules that way). Travel Devotion from Complete Champion will probably be helpful, and the travel domain itself is not too shabby. If he decides against war hulk, knowledge devotion would also be pretty good.

I disagree, 3/4 BAB progression of the cleric will be what he is relying on after branching off into war hulk, but then again, if it's a problem, have him make sure to have the cleric buffs to bring up BAB. But he should have a BAB of 5 when he goes War Hulk. I would recommend whirrling and spirit lion totem barbarian variants. Pounce and an extra attack. So at 6 BAB he will be a pouncing, 3 attacks, cleric buffed killing machine!

The entire upside of cloistered cleric is pretty much completely negated, "no time to think" class feature leaves not a whole lot of useful skills left (no int, wis or cha ones). Also, the 1/2 BAB hurts after barbie's BAB goes away.

[ksbsnowowl]

The problem with War Hulk is that it makes his mental skills count as if he has 0 ranks in them. Not crippling, but he was thinking about going Fist of the Forrest for the Con bonus to AC.

I know! That's so annoying!

There have been a few times I wanted to combine the two on a size-changing monster (Bhuer Hag and Spriggan), and you can't have War Hulk and Fist of the Forest running at the same time! So sad.

[Asteron]

This might sound weird, but he should do a cloistered cleric. All the downsides are covered by the barbarian side (BAB and HD) and the only thing he "loses" is heavy armor, which he can't use anyway if he wants the barbarian's fast movement (or anything that replaces it, assuming your DM rules that way). Travel Devotion from Complete Champion will probably be helpful, and the travel domain itself is not too shabby. If he decides against war hulk, knowledge devotion would also be pretty good.

He already has Cloistered Cleric, but this can change as it hasn't been set in stone. If need be, he can hold off from taking War Hulk for a level so I can Persist Divine Power on him.

He traded away fast movement for Spirit Lion Totem and Trap Sense for Trapkiller.

I think I am going to purpose a houserule that No Time to Think only affects Int and Cha based skills. Wisdom skills should be affected, imo, because wisdom is the intuitive skill. It doesn't require thinking, you just know it instinctively. That's not an unfair or OP houserule, is it?

I plan on taking the might wallop spells to buff his damage. It could get out of hand pretty fast...

[Immabozo]

He already has Cloistered Cleric, but this can change as it hasn't been set in stone. If need be, he can hold off from taking War Hulk for a level so I can Persist Divine Power on him.

He traded away fast movement for Spirit Lion Totem and Trap Sense for Trapkiller.

I think I am going to purpose a houserule that No Time to Think only affects Int and Cha based skills. Wisdom skills should be affected, imo, because wisdom is the intuitive skill. It doesn't require thinking, you just know it instinctively. That's not an unfair or OP houserule, is it?

I plan on taking the might wallop spells to buff his damage. It could get out of hand pretty fast...

If his feat selection is good, that's when things get out of hand. High damage and high AC is a very narrow window of what he can do