How does doubling work in this case?

[Frosty]

Two quick questions:

1) Assume I cast Litany of Righteousness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/litany-of-righteousness) on an evil creature. I then perform a mounted charge with a lance against said creature, and have the Spirited Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/spirited-charge-combat---final) feat. On a normal attack with the +1 Holy Lance I'd do 1d8 + 5 + 2d6 (holy) damage. On this particular charge, how much damage would I do if I hit? What if the hit is a critical hit? How much damage then?

2) Can I cast Litany of Escape (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/litany-of-escape) on myself to get myself out of a grapple?

[eggynack]

1. Unless I either don't understand multiplication rules, or pathfinder is different somehow, it goes *2litany+*3spirited charge+*2critical= *5 damage. I don't know the extent to which the holy damage is multiplied, but I suspect it's not at all. Thus, you'd deal 5*(1d8+5)+2d6 holy, for an average of 54 damage per hit.

2. I don't think so. The spell has a somatic component, so you can't use it in a grapple. Without the somatic component, I'm not sure. It really depends on your definition of friend. I think this comes up in white raven tactics arguments.

Edit: Note that it'd be *4 rather than *5 on a non-critical hit. I don't know if that was clear.

[Frosty]

Lance is a x3 critical, not x2. And I need to know whether the Holy damage is multiplied or not.

[eggynack]

In that case it would be *6 on a critical, or *5 on a non-critical. Also, holy doesn't multiply. I'm going off of standard 3.5 rules, so if there were some big changes where either of these things were concerned, I suppose that the answer could be different.

Edit: I checked, and the rules are the same. Woot.

[tyckspoon]

General rule on multiplication of damage is that bonus dice (such as Sneak Attack and Flaming/Holy/Bane enhancements) are not multiplied- just the base weapon dice and any static modifiers. eggynack is correct. (In this instance, you would probably be better off with other enhancements than Holy.)

You are your own ally unless specified otherwise. Although it doesn't matter with this particular spell, for 2 reasons- first, as eggynack noted, you cannot cast a spell with Somatic components while inside a grapple. If you have it Stilled in some way, then you get: second, Litany of Escape targets 'one willing creature'. That is not restricted to allies and does not get anywhere near implying that it only works on creatures that are not yourself; if you are inside the range of the spell and are willing, you are a valid target for the spell.

[Frosty]

So for example if I have Greater Vital Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat---final), then none of those extra weapon dice are multiplied with the Litany?

Man, the Litany spells tend to suck. All the rules make Power Attack king.

[eggynack]

Well, it works as a swift action which is reasonably useful. Power attack is great, but those bonuses do multiply because they're static numbers rather than bonus dice.

[tyckspoon]

Righteousness and Vengeance are potentially very powerful damage-generation tools, and Sloth has some potential tactical applications. Madness is a no-save Confusion effect, although it's not a Paladin spell. I wouldn't bother with any of the ones that permit a save, but generally speaking you can probably find a use for a Swift action no-save debuff or buff, even if it only lasts 1 round. Although as a Paladin you have some decent competition for those Swifts, so the Litany spells have to justify themselves compared to declaring a Smite/using Lay on Hands on yourself/activating the Grayflame property on your weapon/whatever other Swift effects you've gathered.

[Frosty]

It works off of a paladin's very limited spell slots, and even for a non-critical hit spirited charge, only increases the damage from 3d8+15+2d6 to 4d8+20+2d6, an average of 9.5 more damage. Is that really worth a level 2 spell slot?

[Hyde]

Doubling rules are pretty simple, when we're talking about weapon damage=

"double" really means +100%
"triple" is +200%

Anything that says it's not doubled by a critical hit is pretty safe to assume it never doubles

If it does double on a critical hit, it's pretty safe to assume it doubles otherwise- in your case, you're going to look at Smite damage and start drooling a little bit.

It's important to note this isn't the same as taking extra damage from, say, an elemental vulnerability.

Hope this helps.

[eggynack]

Well, it's not necessarily that little. The statistics are odd, because the relationship between damage added to your attack and damage dealt is far from 1:1, but if you're using power attack it's far more beneficial. If you wield it two handed, then you get 2* return on trade ins of attack bonus. The multiplication effect would be *2 no matter what, and I think that you get a full *4 multiplication because the power attack isn't expressed with multiplication. Therefore, for each point you put into power attack, you're getting a return of an additional two points. If you're already using power attacks, then that's quite a few more damage than 9.5. I don't know if it's necessarily worth it, but it's worth more than you're saying. You can also get that multiplication on other static damage boosts, like collision from the magic item compendium. That would boost the marginal benefit from the spell by 5 damage points right there. It has potential, is what I'm saying.

[Frosty]

It has potential, but not much for my current character. Not only can't I smite and cast the spell on the same turn if I want to attack, but the spell is wasted if I miss. I'll probably stick more with buffs that last awhile, like Bull's Strength (level 8, almost 9, but no Str-boosting items yet wheeeeee. Gogo low-magic-item solo campaign! It's a great game, really, I can't always rely on things that a party of PCs take for granted, like Wizard support.)

[tyckspoon]

Pathfinder Power Attack works a little differently, but it's still true that Power Attack is one of the easiest engines available for making multipliers pay off. For example, level 8 Paladin, switch the weapon to just a straight +3 Lance, Power Attack: +2 extra damage for the enhancement bonus, Power Attack at -3/+6 (+9 for using your weapon two-handed.) That's 11 points of damage, which is doubled up to 22 by the Litany. It's also all valid for Spirited Charge and crits.. which gives you vastly more damage than the average 7.5 of the Holy property.

(Actually, while a Holy weapon is iconically Paladin-y, the tactic you're employing is much better served by Power Attack + a high base enhancement bonus regardless of whether or not you're using the Litany.)

[Frosty]

I don't choose my weapons. There is no Ye-Olde-Magik-Shoppe in this world. I find what the DM puts into the dungeons. So yeah, I got my +1 Keen Lance and my +2 Holy Greatsword. Very decent weapons as they go I guess. If I use Bull's Strength, I'll get +3 damage per hit, and +2 to hit for 5 minutes, vs a small burst of damage for one round. It can be good. I just wish I had more spell slots :smallredface:

[Spuddles]

I am gonna have to point our party paladin towards that spell. We got a good cleric in the party, too. That's gonna be a huge damage multiplier vs. single targets.

[Frosty]

what happens if your Good-aligned cleric casts Harm on the target of the Litany of Righteousness? It goes from 110 damage to 220 damage?

[Spuddles]

Iomedae wills it.