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Marnath
2013-05-01, 06:14 PM
Discussion of the Goblins Comic (http://www.goblinscomic.com/). We do it here.

Previous threads:

Goblins Thread 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53552)
Goblins I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91562)
Goblins II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119947)
GoblIIIns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160611)
Goblins IV: Live Free or Die Horribly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176739)
Goblins V: It's Hard-Kore! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184044)
Goblins VI: How Many Fingers Am I Holding Up? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195334)
Goblins VII: I'm TOTALLY Gonna Pee On This Thing! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212057)
Goblins VIII: This Thread Contains An Unexpected Variable (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225970)
Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245780)
Goblins X: Orcs fall, everybody dies (horribly) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260383)

Current information on Axe Of Prissan wielders:
Wielders of the Axe of Prissan
Starting with the most recent

Big Ears - Male Goblin Paladin. One of the protagonists of the story and current wielder of the axe.
Saral Caine* - Evil Male Half Stone Giant/Half Human. Ally of Dellyn Goblinslayer and minor antagonist in the Brassmoon arc.
Dri Featherknife (http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4901/20101224.jpg) - Female Human Rogue/Paladin. She was killed by Goblinslayer and Saral Caine after uncovering their plot to frame the sherrif of Brassmoon for murder.
Flejj Hillmover - Male Dwarf. He fought Kore twice and survived. His family was not so lucky. He shaved his beard in shame.

----

Felsibeth "Soot" Blackbringer (http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7670/20101022m.jpg) - Young Female Human Paladin. Youngest to ever wield the axe.
Kelstride Blackbringer - Male Human Paladin. Soot's Father. Former chimney sweep. Killed by a Kobold stampede.
Drose (http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/2448/20101221.jpg) - Genderless Golem Paladin. Drose passed the Axe to Kelstride Blackbringer to prevent the demon imprisoned within from taking control of his body.
Eled of the East - "Fat, over confident" Paladin. Was given the axe by Myorg.
Mryorg (http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8533/20110705.jpg)* - Evil Male Ogre. Beat (but did not kill) Vilias Red in combat and took the Axe from her. Used it to cause great suffering before eventually giving it to Elad purely to make the demon contained within suffer after coming so close to freedom.
Vilias Red* (http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8683/20110503s.jpg) - Female Human Rogue. Was friends with Tivoth Fastfoot and took the axe after Tivoth died in battle with the intention of giving it to another Paladin.
Tivoth Fastfoot - Male Paladin. Encountered Vilias Red looting a corpse and assumed she had murdered the man. Once he realized she was innocent, the two became friends and traveled together.

----

Kevitch Gritland* (http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1407/20101207.jpg) - Evil Male... formerly... Human maybe... Fighter/Wizard. Horribly mutated by an evil swamp. Killed Eldrock Cloudcry and claimed the axe as his own.
Eldrock Cloudcry - Known in name only.

-----

Cal (http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/910/20101228.jpg) - Male Gnome Paladin. Egotistic gambler. Had a powerful, icy magic effect.
Jelbin Crae - Male Human Paladin. Gave Cal the Axe willingly. Nothing else is known.

*Confirmed non-Paladin

Individual Magic Effects (IME's)
One of the more frequent sources of confusion is what people are talking about when we're referring to IME's. Here is the comic's explaination of what they are (http://www.goblinscomic.com/08042006/). And now you know.


Shield of Wonder Effects List
Shield of Wonder page 1
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/GoblinsShieldofWonder1_zps00559017.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 2
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/GoblinsShieldofWonder2_zps5b0a6058.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 3
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/GoblinsShieldofWonder3_zpsea36d6ad.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 4
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/GoblinsShieldofWonder4_zpsc8bcaef6.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 5
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/GoblinsShieldofWonder5_zpseb0727ff.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 6
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/GoblinsShieldofWonder6_zps788721e2.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 7
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/GoblinsShieldofWonder7_zps7b70effc.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 8
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/GoblinsShieldofWonder8_zps49d474d1.jpg

Shield of Wonder page 9
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/GoblinsShieldofWonder9_zps65f8fe53.jpg

Ravens_cry
2013-05-01, 06:25 PM
I wonder how Thunt is going to write this one. It seems he's painted himself in a bit of a dramatic corner.

Foeofthelance
2013-05-01, 06:37 PM
Damn. Reality 98 is just sad.

Traab
2013-05-01, 06:46 PM
I wonder how Thunt is going to write this one. It seems he's painted himself in a bit of a dramatic corner.

If it was any other zone besides the maze of many, I would agree. I mean think about it. First of all, if they lose and die, bam, they reset, just like they have done almost 2 million times already. Secondly, psimax is messing about with reality. There are so many ways that could randomly effect things as to be insane. The real problem here is, minmax pretty much cannot get out of the tower room. He could slaughter everything else there and he would still be stuck. Short of forgath or kin somehow managing to fiddle with the mechanism and being able to raise and lower it at will, he can say "kin" all he wants, it wont help anything. So here are a couple of ways this could play out without a full on reset.

1) Psimax can blow up and control matter, that means its possible for him to pull a pettigrew and give kin a silver tail or something similar. Its a permanent change for kin to adjust to, but better than missing your entire lower body.

2) Oblivion holes. Its possible for some of that dr who timey wimy type stuff to take place and totally screw around with reality, reversing things that have happened. Hell, she could dip her lower body into the oblivion hole and just erase say, a half inch or so. Pull back out, and its like she never had that part there at all. That means its possible it would be totally sealed off. Sure she would need a wheelchair or something, but she wouldnt bleed out.

3) They leave the maze and bump into kills horribly. They maul the ever loving piss out of him and use him to regrow her tail somehow. Incredibly long shot but meh.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-01, 07:26 PM
That's why I said dramatic corner. Using the reset feature just feels incredibly cheap.

Hawk7915
2013-05-01, 07:44 PM
I'm not sure it'd be fair to call a reset a Deus Ex Machina, since it's part of the world we know well enough about, but if a reset is the only solution then I'll probably quit reading. We've been waiting for what, two years now to see the GAP? I have zero patience to sit through another six months of Maze of Many (given Thunt's update schedule that might be conservative) so that they finally finish it.

Dragonus45
2013-05-01, 08:00 PM
So my saying is that, yes, because it's just cheap and it carries a lot of baggage. And it's severely overused.
Here's two (http://claytonmccormack.com/deadmeatcomic/2011/09/01/easy-strong-female-characters/) articles (http://www.apex-magazine.com/writing-about-rape/) you can read, randomly found while making a web search for "rape backstory". One can easily find in the Kin/GS/Minmax plot threads many of the issues they talk about.

To quote one of those articles.

"It’s not that writers can’t or shouldn’t write about rape. The problem is that it’s so often done badly."

At the end of the day it all comes down to one thing, was it well written, did it have a place in the story, was the story a better crafted one for addition. What issue or trauma a writer uses in a story is meaningless. What matters is that the writer does something with it. Kin is a well defined character with multiple personality features and motivations aside from her trauma. I'm so very tired of people foisting this issue with writing as a whole onto an Thunt, an artist who is treating the matter as it deserves to be treated and doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the kind of scummy writers who would blandly throw rape into a story for laziness sake. So please, demonstrate for me how Thunt has shown Goblin Slayer to be a nice guy really, or how Thunt has portrayed Kin as "asking for it", has he minimized her or the rape is any way? Please, let me know where.

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-01, 08:02 PM
Just want to say that I'm sure Kin will be ok. This entire comic is about breaking the rules of monsterness, and it's clear that the Minmax/Kin arc is about those two breaking the yuan-ti rules by falling in love.

The Linker
2013-05-01, 08:18 PM
I'm not sure it'd be fair to call a reset a Deus Ex Machina, since it's part of the world we know well enough about, but if a reset is the only solution then I'll probably quit reading. We've been waiting for what, two years now to see the GAP? I have zero patience to sit through another six months of Maze of Many (given Thunt's update schedule that might be conservative) so that they finally finish it.

I think a reset could be handled well, under certain circumstances.

Imagine, through whatever convoluted circumstances, that Psimax is defeated for good, but Minmax is killed in front of Kin and Forgath -- maybe Forgath dies too. Kin survives (somehow), but decides to let another team go and get the prize so that the maze resets. Through some side-effect of her contact with Psimax, when the maze resets, she still has her memory... but Minmax and Forgath don't, having died. She wakes up to see Minmax kissing Forgath and complaining about tasting his beard.

That's not-- that's not the good part. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. That's the whatever needed to get to the stuff I'd like to see. You can replace it with whatever.

There would be a montage in a strip or two where Kin -- after almost crying with happiness -- leads the other two through the dungeon, smiling the whole way. Kin opening the confusion door simply by excitedly describing what she went through in the past run. Kin grinning as she reaches her hand in the hole to open the giant door, totally freaking out Minmax and Forgath. Kin just shouting Not!Walter's name at him and releasing him.

They'd get to the tower room way before anyone else, and they'd climb up, get the right key, and get into the treasure room. All of this in the span of a week, real-time.

I think it could be really cool.

Traab
2013-05-01, 08:25 PM
I'm not sure it'd be fair to call a reset a Deus Ex Machina, since it's part of the world we know well enough about, but if a reset is the only solution then I'll probably quit reading. We've been waiting for what, two years now to see the GAP? I have zero patience to sit through another six months of Maze of Many (given Thunt's update schedule that might be conservative) so that they finally finish it.

You know, even if it DOES reset, that doesnt mean it has to stay with minmax and crew. Think about it. He is good with ending on cliffhangars. So they show up back at the start, begin to go through with the usual conversation when minmax goes, "Wait, I remember this!" Because he is wielding a weapon that cant exist or whatever the phrasing was, it is effecting reality around him enough to unlock his memories of this last run. He has his Oblivious sword with him and the memories of whats happening. At this stage we can switch back to probably dies and gang.

Or thunt could show an abbreviated rerun of the dungeon, this time using minmax's knowledge of the previous run to fly through it and be ready to ambush psimax when he shows up, expecting to be fighting a team that doesnt know what happened last time. A single panel showing them dashing through the confusion wall trap, again single panel of them just waltzing through the giant facsimile thing instead of wasting time with it. Obliterating scorpkins party because they now know what they can do. (if they even meet them since they are moving way faster this time) Then insta banishing not walter in the room of upside down trees, avoiding the whole burning issue. They basically curb stomp their way through, including using the oblivion holes to get above the tower room way ahead of schedule, grabbing the right key instead of all of them and winning. You could cover most of that in like 3-4 comics, not counting the battle with psimax.

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-01, 08:35 PM
I have a theory: In another couple of comics Minmax is going to use Oblivious to kill Psimax, and alter the sword's powers to cause it to take on the retconjuring properties of the oblivion holes. So when Psimax is killed by Oblivious, he will never have existed in the first place, thus he never disintegrated Kin's tail.

Then Kin is going to realize that if Psimax never existed, then he couldn't have created the oblivion holes to infuse Oblivious with its powers in the first place. They will have to rush and grab the Jade Teapot, then jump out before the dungeon is ripped into shreds of reality by the paradox, and it will be an awesome race.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-01, 08:56 PM
why deal with psimax at all? Just throw him into an oblivion hole and he doesn't exist, he want pop up in the next restart and we can just flash-forward to when the group inevitibly wins.


Also i was thinking, is Minmax times it right, he might be able to use his own sword as a ladder to the sealed-off mouth on the roof. he just needs to let go of it, step onto it as it's being pulled away from under him, jump up, grab the sword again, put it under his feet, let go, jump up again, grab the sword again, lather, rinse, repeat.

EsperDerek
2013-05-01, 10:08 PM
We've spent halfway past forever following them in this stupid maze. I vote for any method that gets them out of there the quickest.

Toofey
2013-05-02, 01:01 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the last time we saw the goblins the last 2-3 of them going into their own stupidly long maze... ahem dungeon.

Marnath
2013-05-02, 01:08 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the last time we saw the goblins the last 2-3 of them going into their own stupidly long maze... ahem dungeon.

The last time we saw the so called "main characters" was here (http://www.goblinscomic.com/01212011-2/).

On January twenty-first, 2011.

Psychonaut
2013-05-02, 02:03 AM
I have a theory: In another couple of comics Minmax is going to use Oblivious to kill Psimax, and alter the sword's powers to cause it to take on the retconjuring properties of the oblivion holes. So when Psimax is killed by Oblivious, he will never have existed in the first place, thus he never disintegrated Kin's tail.

Then Kin is going to realize that if Psimax never existed, then he couldn't have created the oblivion holes to infuse Oblivious with its powers in the first place. They will have to rush and grab the Jade Teapot, then jump out before the dungeon is ripped into shreds of reality by the paradox, and it will be an awesome race.

The way the oblivion holes appear to work is that they erase something's existence and all memories of it, but not any other consequences of its existence up to that point. So throwing Psimax into an Oblivion hole - or somehow imbuing Oblivious with the same effect and using it to kill him - would not cause Kin's tail to reappear, nor would it create any paradox.* (Of course, as others have suggested, they could simply let another team win at that point and keep attempting the Maze until they complete it with all three alive and in one piece. Well, three pieces.)

* Though I'd be curious to see how they'd rationalize the disintegration of Kin's tail, Forgath's mace, and the keys, as they would presumably be able to remember that all of those things had existed just a few minutes earlier but not that Psimax was responsible for their destruction.

Feytalist
2013-05-02, 02:33 AM
So I've kinda not been following Goblins since the end of last year. And whoa. They've motored on. I just trawled through probably about 40 pages. Guess the colourist helps keeps things moving along quickly.

Traab
2013-05-02, 07:21 AM
why deal with psimax at all? Just throw him into an oblivion hole and he doesn't exist, he want pop up in the next restart and we can just flash-forward to when the group inevitibly wins.


Also i was thinking, is Minmax times it right, he might be able to use his own sword as a ladder to the sealed-off mouth on the roof. he just needs to let go of it, step onto it as it's being pulled away from under him, jump up, grab the sword again, put it under his feet, let go, jump up again, grab the sword again, lather, rinse, repeat.

Yeah but the exit is sealed off because he yanked out all the keys and tossed them through the opening before it could shut. So even if that could work, and its not likely it would since the sword DOES react to his touch, he would still hit the roof head first and not go any further. Really, at this point the only thing that I can think of that would salvage this scenario revolves around either a reset, or those oblivion holes SOMEHOW doing something due to a twist I cant think of. Kin is crippled, forgath is trapped and doesnt even have his weapon anymore, minmax is trapped a long ways away surrounded by dozens of very pissed off people.

TheEmerged
2013-05-02, 07:47 AM
New post? Good.

While I've enjoyed the MoM, I'm glad to see it coming to an end. It's on the verge of dragging but hasn't crossed that line yet.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-02, 09:50 AM
Yeah but the exit is sealed off because he yanked out all the keys and tossed them through the opening before it could shut. So even if that could work, and its not likely it would since the sword DOES react to his touch, he would still hit the roof head first and not go any further. Really, at this point the only thing that I can think of that would salvage this scenario revolves around either a reset, or those oblivion holes SOMEHOW doing something due to a twist I cant think of. Kin is crippled, forgath is trapped and doesnt even have his weapon anymore, minmax is trapped a long ways away surrounded by dozens of very pissed off people.

true. wouldn't be surprised if he could just force his way through those teeth by attacking them a whole lot though.

Starbuck_II
2013-05-02, 09:55 AM
The last time we saw the so called "main characters" was here (http://www.goblinscomic.com/01212011-2/).

On January twenty-first, 2011.

The Drow party (who became a Samurai, etc) are the main characters.

Rosstin
2013-05-02, 10:15 AM
I can't believe there's a filler page. What happens with Kin? :smallfrown:

Winterwind
2013-05-02, 10:52 AM
Yeah but the exit is sealed off because he yanked out all the keys and tossed them through the opening before it could shut. So even if that could work, and its not likely it would since the sword DOES react to his touch, he would still hit the roof head first and not go any further. Really, at this point the only thing that I can think of that would salvage this scenario revolves around either a reset, or those oblivion holes SOMEHOW doing something due to a twist I cant think of. Kin is crippled, forgath is trapped and doesnt even have his weapon anymore, minmax is trapped a long ways away surrounded by dozens of very pissed off people.Well, technically, it would be possible for him to try to climb down the tower and search for the corridor with the broken ceiling to get up there the same way they got up there in the first place. Not very likely to succeed, with all of the angry alternates around, not to mention probably not having any idea where that corridor might be, but it's an option.

Though I really fear Kin is not surviving this. Unless Forgath preserved some of the healing potion inside the Anymug, I don't think they have anything that could save her, and that's assuming the shock didn't kill her instantly (admittedly, for dramatic reasons it's rather unlikely it did). I'm seriously wondering if this whole "When the serpent becomes your prey..." prophecy wasn't referring to this very event - after all, chances are Kin did just fall prey to Minmax, albeit an alternate...

Marnath
2013-05-02, 12:10 PM
The Drow party (who became a Samurai, etc) are the main characters.

No they aren't. It's called Goblins: Life through their eyes.

snoopy13a
2013-05-02, 12:14 PM
No they aren't. It's called Goblins: Life through their eyes.

He was goofing around.

Speaking of the Three Stooges, I assume no re-rolls and gone for good?

John Campbell
2013-05-02, 12:33 PM
Speaking of the Three Stooges, I assume no re-rolls and gone for good?

They're pointless, annoying, and unfunny.

So I'm pretty sure they'll be back.

Deepbluediver
2013-05-02, 01:07 PM
They're pointless, annoying, and unfunny.

So I'm pretty sure they'll be back.

First they where stereotypically Drow, then they where stereotypically Asian (stereotype in this sense meaning this is what bad roleplayers think they should play as). So my question is...what will we see next? What other bad stereotypes do gamers stereotypically screw up?


Also, in my next game I think I'll play a drow samurai and see how fast I can make the DM pop a vein. :smalltongue:

Killer Angel
2013-05-02, 01:07 PM
All hail the new thread!


The last time we saw the so called "main characters" was here (http://www.goblinscomic.com/01212011-2/).

On January twenty-first, 2011.

It's better, when you don't think about it. To see it written (2011, and january, nonetheless), it's painful...

Traab
2013-05-02, 01:13 PM
That last goblin comic, am I the only one who looks at that last panel and thinks it looks like Names' spine is in the front of his body?

Morquard
2013-05-02, 01:42 PM
I have a lot of trouble seeing how this will end in a good way now.
Minmax is distracted, giving everyone an opening to kill him. Unless those bozos he killed were the last enemies in the tower room, which I doubt.
Kin just lost liked 70% of her body and has a gaping hole where it used to be now and is bleeding out. Unless that Healing Potion is much stronger than usualy CLW I don't see it helping. However they schlepped that around for so long now, it has to come into play eventually so ok, maybe for this.
Forgrath just lost his Mace which includes his Holy Symbol. She he can't really do anything anymore.

So... what if the Oblivion holes destroyed some important piece of the Maze, responsible for the reset, causing them to respawn, but not completely reset. Kin still lost hair tail (though the wound is healed and she doesn't die), Minmax has his armor and weapon, Forgath ... err lost his beard, but gets the mace back (as that was brought from outside). They also have their memories still, or lash out in fury at the Counter and break it.
Or an Oblivion Hole has been formed over the FMK's counter resulting in them to respawn with all memories intact?

Because to be honest, there's been so much Character development in this run of the Maze, that any reset without them keeping that would feel like a whole year of "Sorry, but it has all been a dream."

Marnath
2013-05-02, 02:06 PM
That last goblin comic, am I the only one who looks at that last panel and thinks it looks like Names' spine is in the front of his body?

Those are scales, but yeah now that you mention it it does look a little like that.

HandofShadows
2013-05-02, 02:21 PM
lash out in fury at the Counter and break it.

What do think the chances are that MinMax already broke the counter screwing around with it and he didn't let the others know?

Marnath
2013-05-02, 03:18 PM
What do think the chances are that MinMax already broke the counter screwing around with it and he didn't let the others know?

If he was going to do that he'd have done it hundreds of thousands of repetitions ago. :smalltongue:

Traab
2013-05-02, 03:50 PM
I honestly am expecting this to be a rerun of the maze in fast forward, this time with memories for various reasons. I hadnt even thought about an oblivion hole over their counter, thats freaking BRILLIANT! But like I said, a comic or three at the start line for them to establish that yes, they do remember everything and to come up with a plan. Then a 6 panel comic where every panel shows them bypassing the traps at a dash, several comics for a psimax show down, then the grand finale as they gtfo of there. If there is a reset, kin gets her tail back, but psimax has an opening for his sword to stay with him, since it doesnt really exist, it cant be reset or whatever. But even if he loses the oblivious sword, he can get it back later on.

Mo_the_Hawked
2013-05-02, 06:02 PM
With her tail exploded, my money is Kin getting a pair of legs.

The question be ones, what kind. Human? Robot? Or Migic legs, ala Lt. Dan...

BannedInSchool
2013-05-02, 06:21 PM
PsiMax can't have her dying without answering his questions, so purple skeletal tail just like his arms!:smallsmile:

Ravens_cry
2013-05-02, 10:00 PM
With her tail exploded, my money is Kin getting a pair of legs.

The question be ones, what kind. Human? Robot? Or Migic legs, ala Lt. Dan...
I hope not. I like her tail. Surely the cleric can get Regeneration cast?

SaintRidley
2013-05-02, 10:23 PM
I hope not. I like her tail. Surely the cleric can get Regeneration cast?

Aren't they like level 2?

Sholos
2013-05-02, 10:27 PM
Hmmm, theory: All the teams who have won are teams that get frustrated enough with the counter that they destroy it, thus remembering that run and being able to accumulate the experience needed to beat the Maze.

Tavar
2013-05-03, 12:02 AM
Aren't they like level 2?

I think they hit level 3 around the healing stream, but that's awhile ago now.

Traab
2013-05-03, 05:38 AM
I think they hit level 3 around the healing stream, but that's awhile ago now.

Speaking of levels I have a few questions that both involve the world that herbert built, and specifically how this maze works. Levelling up. What exactly IS experience? How does someone like minmax learn how to go into a rage, have his eyes glow, and be way stronger than before without being trained in it? If experience is exactly that, then wouldnt that mean psimax is ludicrously high level? I mean think about it. He remembers several hundred trips through the maze, and using groundhogs day as evidence of what a person does with unlimited repeats, I bet he has gone on a mass murdering spree at least a few times. And even when he doesnt, he likely has to kill a few people every time, even if its just his own team, so he should be significantly higher level than average.

A part of me wonders why he doesnt just zip around the maze at the start and wipe out either all the teams, or at least all the capable teams ahead of time to give himself more time to deal with creating oblivion. Trap one team so the race is still technically ongoing, and spend the next year studying to wipe out reality. (We have heard no indication of a time limit other than being first)

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-03, 09:34 AM
he probably did just that a few times just to guain experiance and make himself stronger so he can do this whole oblivion thing in the first place, most likely he just doesn't do it now because he sees it as a waste of time. there are over two hundred alternate realities out there, most of wich have at least three members in there, if they all ganged up on him, or even scatteredd before he could vaporize them, then they could either pose a real threat, or wind up simply costing more time to hunt down then would be required to end all existance within the maze of the many.


He knows how long it takes to get to the treasure room, and he seems to know how long it would take to create oblivion, he cannot create oblivion while killing, and he wants to create oblivion as soon as possible, so he figures why even bother? It would save a lot of time and effort to just create oblivion before anyone can possibly reach the treasure room. it was only through his own interferiance that caused that not to be the case during this run in the first place.

Starbuck_II
2013-05-03, 10:13 AM
. What exactly IS experience? How does someone like minmax learn how to go into a rage, have his eyes glow, and be way stronger than before without being trained in it?

Training is an optional rule in D&D since 3.0. So he doesn't need to do it.


If experience is exactly that, then wouldnt that mean psimax is ludicrously high level? I mean think about it. He remembers several hundred trips through the maze, and using groundhogs day as evidence of what a person does with unlimited repeats, I bet he has gone on a mass murdering spree at least a few times. And even when he doesnt, he likely has to kill a few people every time, even if its just his own team, so he should be significantly higher level than average.

You get less exp for killing lower level targets, till you get high enough you get nothing for killing them. So he might be too high to level anymore: He'd have to kill Not Walter to gain exp.

Tavar
2013-05-03, 10:16 AM
I'd say experience is some sort of nebulously defined currency you can get for killing stuff. And I would expect that they dungeon resets it with each loop.

angry_bear
2013-05-03, 11:06 AM
My guess is that they force PsiMax to win the race. He's removed, and everyone else is reset, while somehow being given the ability to remember everything that happened...

BaronOfHell
2013-05-03, 11:27 AM
Speaking of levels I have a few questions that both involve the world that herbert built, and specifically how this maze works. Levelling up. What exactly IS experience? How does someone like minmax learn how to go into a rage, have his eyes glow, and be way stronger than before without being trained in it? If experience is exactly that, then wouldnt that mean psimax is ludicrously high level? I mean think about it. He remembers several hundred trips through the maze, and using groundhogs day as evidence of what a person does with unlimited repeats, I bet he has gone on a mass murdering spree at least a few times. And even when he doesnt, he likely has to kill a few people every time, even if its just his own team, so he should be significantly higher level than average.

A part of me wonders why he doesnt just zip around the maze at the start and wipe out either all the teams, or at least all the capable teams ahead of time to give himself more time to deal with creating oblivion. Trap one team so the race is still technically ongoing, and spend the next year studying to wipe out reality. (We have heard no indication of a time limit other than being first)

First of all, sorry about the massive quote....

Secondly, I'm no D&D player so what I might write here may be wrong for obvious reasons unclear to me.

So there are some ~250 realities, each consisting of ~3 members. Since 1 is much less that 250*3, I don't think it matters to include PsiMax himself, as the uncertainty is higher in other parts of the numbers anyway.

In some ~800 runs he can in total take out 750*800 = 600000 encounters.

Everyone is probably approximately around the same level to begin with. I'm assuming no else breaks their counter as well, and thereby no one else gains experience.

If I understood correctly, in D&D you get 1 level when you defeat one opponent of your level (or was it 3?), but for generality, let's just say you've to kill X opponents of your own level.

We already assume everyone in the maze is level N (probably approx. 2) from the get go.
If X = 1 and N = 1, it follows that to become level 2, he'd ave to kill 1 opponent, to become level 3, he'd have to kill 2 more (1+1), i.e. 3, to level 4 it'd be 4 (1+1 + 1+1) more, i.e. 7 in total, etc.
Which means it requires to take out double as many opponents to get the next level than the previous one. In which case his level would be Level = log(Kills + 1)/log(2) + 1, where X = 1, N = 1 and Kills >= 1.

If starting level, N, is something else, then since everyone is assumed to be the same starting level to a fair degree, the formula transform into:
Level = log(Kills + 1)/log(2) + N, where X = 1, N >= 1 and Kills >= 1.

Finally, if X is larger than 1, e.g. iIRC it took MinMax to defeat 2 MinMaxes and 1 Forgath to level up (Belt Buckle + Forest scene), then Kills can simply be viewed as having 1/Xth of the previous potency and the formula becomes:
Level = log(Kills/X + 1)/log(2) + N, where X is a real positive number, N >= 1 and Kills >= 1.

If we assume X = 3 (defeat 3 opponents of your own level to gain +1 level), N = 2 (starting level of every encounter, who keeps at this level throughout the maze), then with maximum 600000 encounters, PsiMax's maximum level would be:
PsiMaxLevel = log(600 *10^3/3 + 1)/log(2) + 2 = 17.6, which rounds down to level 19.

So he'd be godlike to his current opposition, but not epic yet, which I think makes good sense.

He probably isn't level 19 though, as it takes twice as many for each level, he'd have reached level 18 before 300 runs where he killed everyone, as such his level range based purely on these random speculations is probably at a stage where he could safely continue with his plans without the need for more experience.

Btw. just to demonstrate how inefficient leveling becomes from targeting low level opposition, again under the same assumptions as above (N = 2, X = 3), with 2 mill. rounds of kills as opposed to 800, your level would still "only" be at 30.

Claudius Maximus
2013-05-03, 11:50 AM
The XP chart doesn't support encounters eight or more levels lower than you. there are also rules about getting reduced XP from defeating encounters that are easier than usual, which would probably be the case if you know literally everything about your opponents, including what they would do (i.e. have done) in response to your attacks. He's probably not much over 10th level, if he even went for XP.

BaronOfHell
2013-05-03, 11:55 AM
Well that makes sense, thanks. :) That would also set an upper limit to Kore if we assume the low level world of Goblins is not only unique to the local proximity we've perceived, right? E.g. if a famous hero such as Goblinsslayer was, let's say, level 5, and then it'd be a bit unrealistic for Kore to be higher level than 5+8=13 I imagine.

Btw. sorry about the length of the previous post, I can easily get carried away when I find it interesting.

BannedInSchool
2013-05-03, 11:57 AM
Leveling and gaining feats just happen in the world.

"I declare my Dodge on you!"

angry_bear
2013-05-03, 12:42 PM
The XP chart doesn't support encounters eight or more levels lower than you. there are also rules about getting reduced XP from defeating encounters that are easier than usual, which would probably be the case if you know literally everything about your opponents, including what they would do (i.e. have done) in response to your attacks. He's probably not much over 10th level, if he even went for XP.

Although if he's basing the comic off of 3.0, and not 3.5 then a level 10 Psion is probably more than enough to be the most powerful character in the Maze... Heck, an optimized Psion like that Minmax that matches the level as everyone else, is going to be the most powerful character in the maze.

Marnath
2013-05-03, 01:08 PM
Well that makes sense, thanks. :) That would also set an upper limit to Kore if we assume the low level world of Goblins is not only unique to the local proximity we've perceived, right? E.g. if a famous hero such as Goblinsslayer was, let's say, level 5, and then it'd be a bit unrealistic for Kore to be higher level than 5+8=13 I imagine.

Btw. sorry about the length of the previous post, I can easily get carried away when I find it interesting.

Actually we have an explicit minimum level for Kore. He has cast holy sword, and you must be at least a level 14 paladin to cast that one. He could be higher than that, we don't know. At 14 or higher though it hardly matters because at that point when nearly everyone else is between 8 and 13 levels lower than you, you may as well be a god.

BaronOfHell
2013-05-03, 01:39 PM
Actually we have an explicit minimum level for Kore. He has cast holy sword, and you must be at least a level 14 paladin to cast that one. He could be higher than that, we don't know. At 14 or higher though it hardly matters because at that point when nearly everyone else is between 8 and 13 levels lower than you, you may as well be a god.

Alright. Thanks for sharing. :-)

Marnath
2013-05-03, 03:30 PM
Alright. Thanks for sharing. :-)

No problem. :smallsmile:

If you would like to read up on some more of the D&D rules, this (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) is a good place to start. It's for a revised version of the game that Goblins was based on but it is pretty close in a lot of ways.

Starbuck_II
2013-05-03, 09:21 PM
If I understood correctly, in D&D you get 1 level when you defeat one opponent of your level (or was it 3?), but for generality, let's just say you've to kill X opponents of your own level.


This premise is where your math was faulty.
An even match (CR 1 vs 1 level 1 Player) doesn't mean one level, it means 300 XP. You need a little more than Pi of them to level (no seriously, multiply pi by amount gained and you see you need a little more).

At level 2, CR 2 vs 1 level 2 player, means 600 XP, but you now need 2000 XP. Still need a little more than Pi.

Level 3, CR 3 vs 1 Level 3 player, means 900 XP, but you need 3000 XP. Still need a little more than Pi.

If you have a party you need to divide up among them so even more battles.

SaintRidley
2013-05-03, 09:25 PM
And when you have a team of four, as standard, the XP gets divided four ways. Under what are meant to be normal circumstances, it's about 13 encounters at your level to level up, pi (and round up to four) encounters if solo.

Aldreck
2013-05-04, 05:57 AM
New strip is up (http://www.goblinscomic.com/05032013/)

BaronOfHell
2013-05-04, 05:59 AM
Thanks. Very nice info, from all of you.

New update, btw. :-)

A little disappointed that it's a "filler" in a sense

The Succubus
2013-05-04, 06:21 AM
New update (4/5/13):

...Kin? :smallfrown:

Traab
2013-05-04, 06:21 AM
Hmmm, Pretty sure she is dead. There is no -10 over her, but that fades pretty quick anyways. Now I almost want to see a reenactment of Jet Li's The One. Minmax has killed every other version of himself in the maze but psimax and absorbed their power. TIME FOR VENGEANCE!

teratorn
2013-05-04, 08:50 AM
Hmmm, Pretty sure she is dead. There is no -10 over her, but that fades pretty quick anyways.

She's breathing, or at least still moving her mouth.

Killer Angel
2013-05-04, 12:33 PM
Count me in the camp "Kin is still alive, somehow!" Probably, given the lack of vital organ in the tail, for now it's "only" a wound with massive damage, that will kill her, if unattended

"...upon further thought, I think I'll accept your offer"
NOW?!?
Psimax, I believe that psycology isn't your best skill. :smallsigh:

The Linker
2013-05-04, 12:44 PM
If she's not dead, then she's not even in the negatives, yet.

Getting 70% of your body exploded is still less deadly than a good crit, I guess. :smalleek:

Well, granted, maybe she has lots more HP than humans. I dunno.

memnarch
2013-05-04, 01:53 PM
She's breathing, or at least still moving her mouth.

Her hand as well.

Sholos
2013-05-04, 02:55 PM
I love Goblins but it moves agonizingly slowly at times.

Marnath
2013-05-04, 03:19 PM
Count me in the camp "Kin is still alive, somehow!" Probably, given the lack of vital organ in the tail, for now it's "only" a wound with massive damage, that will kill her, if unattended

"...upon further thought, I think I'll accept your offer"
NOW?!?
Psimax, I believe that psycology isn't your best skill. :smallsigh:

Have you ever seen the inside of a snake? Their organs run the length of their body. I fail to see how Kin would be different. Just because she is still moving does not mean she is alive. Lots of things twitch involuntarily for a while after they get horribly killed like that. Residual energy in the nervous system.

Strawberries
2013-05-04, 03:28 PM
Have you ever seen the inside of a snake? Their organs run the length of their body. I fail to see how Kin would be different. Just because she is still moving does not mean she is alive. Lots of things twitch involuntarily for a while after they get horribly killed like that. Residual energy in the nervous system.

To which I still reply with: Lizards. Tails. We have no idea how Yuan-Ti anatomy works, so I won't make any assumption till we know. :smallwink:

Marnath
2013-05-04, 03:57 PM
To which I still reply with: Lizards. Tails. We have no idea how Yuan-Ti anatomy works, so I won't make any assumption till we know. :smallwink:

In what possible universe do lizards have anything to do with Kin or yuan-ti? Even if we didn't already explicitly know that she's part snake(we do (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09092011/)), the fact still remains that Psimax exploded her. If she is still alive, it's not going to be for long.

Surfing HalfOrc
2013-05-04, 04:33 PM
In what possible universe do lizards have anything to do with Kin or yuan-ti? Even if we didn't already explicitly know that she's part snake(we do (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09092011/)), the fact still remains that Psimax exploded her. If she is still alive, it's not going to be for long.

Lizards and snakes both belong to the reptile family.

As for why this would make a difference, while a snake's organs are spread along the length of the body, a lizards' organs are kept in the torso. And some lizards can lose a tail and grow another one.

So, where does Kin keep her more important organs? In her torso, or along her entire lower snake body? That will determine if she is all the way dead, or just mostly dead.

Mando Knight
2013-05-04, 04:39 PM
NOW?!?
Psimax, I believe that psycology isn't your best skill. :smallsigh:

He gave up being an even remotely sympathetic character for those weird arms. :smallwink:

Ravens_cry
2013-05-04, 04:48 PM
Now is not the time to try to make him a sympathetic well intentioned extremest.
I. Want. Him. Dead.
I want him dead like I wanted the Goblinslayer dead.
He hurt Kin.
He.
Must.
Die.:furious:

Lord Raziere
2013-05-04, 04:53 PM
Don't worry.

it'll just be "oblivion is better than this mostly evil existence" bluh bluh garbage.

and we will hate him even more, and the payoff when he finally dies will be even sweeter :smallamused:

Ravens_cry
2013-05-04, 05:01 PM
Don't worry.

it'll just be "oblivion is better than this mostly evil existence" bluh bluh garbage.

and we will hate him even more, and the payoff when he finally dies will be even sweeter :smallamused:
It better be.
It damn well <expletive redacted/> better be.:smallmad:

Giggling Ghast
2013-05-04, 05:37 PM
Defeating PsiMax in straight combat is impossible, so the only way I can see Forgath managing to beat him is by making him drop his guard or see the error of his ways. That likely involves verbally pulling the rug out from under his motive speech.

Traab
2013-05-04, 06:58 PM
Don't worry.

it'll just be "oblivion is better than this mostly evil existence" bluh bluh garbage.

and we will hate him even more, and the payoff when he finally dies will be even sweeter :smallamused:

"My sweet little puppy developed rabies and mauled my wife and 6 small children to death. The government took my house from me to build a new highway for wagon traffic from the farmlands, leaving me with only the burial plot of my family for shelter. My best friend admitted at my families funeral that daughters 1, 3 and son 5 were actually his, then it started to rain. All I want in life is to die, but my own psionic powers protect me. The only way I can die is if the universe dies. I am so, so sorry, but it must be done."

NEO|Phyte
2013-05-04, 07:32 PM
"My sweet little puppy developed rabies and mauled my wife and 6 small children to death. The government took my house from me to build a new highway for wagon traffic from the farmlands, leaving me with only the burial plot of my family for shelter. My best friend admitted at my families funeral that daughters 1, 3 and son 5 were actually his, then it started to rain. All I want in life is to die, but my own psionic powers protect me. The only way I can die is if the universe dies. I am so, so sorry, but it must be done."

Except that's not accurate at all. If death was all he wanted, I'm sure a fellow as smart as he apparently is would be able to find someone/something strong enough to do the deed. And if he is somehow powerful enough that there ISN'T anything strong enough to kill him, what the bloody hell was he doing letting a mere government take his house?

:edit: Hrum, doing some thought on the matter, I just had a strange idea for Psimax's motivation. What if he, through some strangeness, became aware that he is simply a character under the control of his player? Death can't release you from that, the player simply rerolls.

Vknight
2013-05-04, 08:00 PM
Or maybe the two with him are a fake Forgath and Kin and the real ones are trapped in Hell. Or he's trapped in the maze for breaking his counter and wants to destroy it cause he will forever be stuck within it

Ravens_cry
2013-05-04, 08:33 PM
Or maybe the two with him are a fake Forgath and Kin and the real ones are trapped in Hell. Or he's trapped in the maze for breaking his counter and wants to destroy it cause he will forever be stuck within it
Not only is that absolute cheating worthy of a hack comic book author, why would Minmax form a sudden 'connection' with a fake Kin?

Spacewolf
2013-05-04, 09:05 PM
I think he means psymaxs forgath and kin

NEO|Phyte
2013-05-04, 09:16 PM
The fake companions thing makes absolutely no sense as a motive for wanting to have never been.

The counter thing would be a possibility if it wasn't established that psimax was doing his oblivion thing in the Maze because actual Reality has far too many variables to account for.

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-04, 09:45 PM
The counter thing would be a possibility if it wasn't established that psimax was doing his oblivion thing in the Maze because actual Reality has far too many variables to account for.

Really? Where was that established? I got the impression he felt that unmaking the maze and annihilating the 218 current inhabitants was 1. merciful to them (like shooting a horse with a broken leg), and 2. worth it to prevent anyone else from entering the maze.

NEO|Phyte
2013-05-04, 09:54 PM
Really? Where was that established? I got the impression he felt that unmaking the maze and annihilating the 218 current inhabitants was 1. merciful to them (like shooting a horse with a broken leg), and 2. worth it to prevent anyone else from entering the maze.

Panel 4 (http://www.goblinscomic.com/12062011/). Extra characters so I can post.

Radar
2013-05-05, 01:59 AM
I think the hell comment was supposed to indicate, that PsiMax views existance as hell with complete oblivion as the only way out. He said pretty much this at least once before.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-05, 02:09 AM
Don't take my sunset (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6854443&postcount=237).

Dudze
2013-05-05, 02:57 AM
For people arguing that Kin's organ loss should result in her death we need to remember that Thunt doesn't do organs. People are just bags of blood and occasionally muscle. Point in case (http://www.goblinscomic.com/11152008/).

Of course this fact is defied for the sake of a joke Here (http://www.goblinscomic.com/05112012/). But with that minor exception it holds up throughout the comic.

In short, if the HP isn't -10 (and it wasn't) they aren't dead. Course she could bleed to death depending on if Thunt calculates bleeding from wounds for damage. If not then she'll live until something puts her in the negatives.

Not to say I have much hope for Kin right now but she's not dead yet.

Killer Angel
2013-05-05, 05:08 AM
Have you ever seen the inside of a snake? Their organs run the length of their body. I fail to see how Kin would be different. Just because she is still moving does not mean she is alive. Lots of things twitch involuntarily for a while after they get horribly killed like that. Residual energy in the nervous system.

Have you ever seen the inside of a juan-ti? :smallamused:
For all we know, Thunt could have decided that all the vital organs are in the human torso, and the tail is simply like our legs, or a little more.

BTW, even in the first appearance of Psimax, he exploded the tail of its reality's Kin (even if not is such a massive way). In the end he killed her with a head boom, 'cause she was still alive.

Radar
2013-05-05, 05:32 AM
Don't take my sunset (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6854443&postcount=237).
I'd drink to that (at least figuratively). I might even add, that all the pains and misfortunes are kind of incomparable with the sheer sensations of well... existing. We take our lives for granted, but sentience is in of itself truly amazing.

Traab
2013-05-05, 06:23 AM
Except that's not accurate at all. If death was all he wanted, I'm sure a fellow as smart as he apparently is would be able to find someone/something strong enough to do the deed. And if he is somehow powerful enough that there ISN'T anything strong enough to kill him, what the bloody hell was he doing letting a mere government take his house?

:edit: Hrum, doing some thought on the matter, I just had a strange idea for Psimax's motivation. What if he, through some strangeness, became aware that he is simply a character under the control of his player? Death can't release you from that, the player simply rerolls.

Of course its not accurate, but its the sort of crappy sob story you might expect to get shoe horned in if you want to try to make the bad guy sympathetic. "Oooh, how tragic! The poor guy has lost everything but cant even die because his own powers wont let him!" But just for fun, lets try to show how that could work.

His powers wont let him die. That means if he runs face first into Lloth's living room and grabs her ass, his powers would be used to make him escape some how. He would melt through the floor, activate some sort of teleport ability, i dont know, do SOMETHING freaky that his minmaxing ways would have arranged for. If this guy was being played by minmax I would expect him to sacrifice everything he can for higher intelligence, and use the fact that he has an int stat of 90 at level 1 to justify adam west batman levels of always being prepared for everything no matter what herbert tosses at him. Only to have it backfire now because his character is explicitly stated to be prepared for any scenario he can think of.

In fact, this method of death could be seen as moralistic. If he destroys the maze of many, these 200 odd teams of players will be erased from existence with him, true. But if he managed to pull that off in his actual universe? The death toll would be WAY higher. So in addition to it being easier to erase reality in here, its also going to create a far smaller death toll. Dont you feel sympathetic to him now? No? Ok, then, he also has asthma and his mother claimed she never loved him.

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-05, 06:40 AM
Panel 4 (http://www.goblinscomic.com/12062011/). Extra characters so I can post.

That only shows that he couldn't do this to the real world, not necessarily that he'd ever want to.

ThirdEmperor
2013-05-05, 06:44 AM
I think it's a lot simpler than that.

Psimax doesn't want to die. Death in a D&D world isn't anything even approaching an end, you just get shuffled off to one afterlife or another according to your alignment and religion. And if Psimax's deeds before the Maze were anything like the atrocities he's commited time and time again inside, I think it's safe to say he wouldn't be headed for a very nice place.

No, what he wants is quite specifically oblivion. Not only to die, but to cease existing and to never have existed at all. That's a little trickier. I can't actually think of anything in D&D cannon that would provide that sort of finality, so Psi's scheme to utilize the Maze's reduced variables to run his oblivion engine makes some degree of sense.



Why he doesn't take a jump into one of the oblivion patches that're cropping up, I dunno. He's probably being a jerk and trying to take a bunch of other Minmaxes (Minmaxi?) with him.

Winterwind
2013-05-05, 06:52 AM
Why he doesn't take a jump into one of the oblivion patches that're cropping up, I dunno. He's probably being a jerk and trying to take a bunch of other Minmaxes (Minmaxi?) with him.At a guess, imperfect oblivion won't cut it for him. It's true oblivion that he wants.
Also, I imagine he might actually consider it immoral to be the only one "gifted" with oblivion, when he has the means of "saving" so many more.

Traab
2013-05-05, 06:54 AM
I think it's a lot simpler than that.

Psimax doesn't want to die. Death in a D&D world isn't anything even approaching an end, you just get shuffled off to one afterlife or another according to your alignment and religion. And if Psimax's deeds before the Maze were anything like the atrocities he's commited time and time again inside, I think it's safe to say he wouldn't be headed for a very nice place.

No, what he wants is quite specifically oblivion. Not only to die, but to cease existing and to never have existed at all. That's a little trickier. I can't actually think of anything in D&D cannon that would provide that sort of finality, so Psi's scheme to utilize the Maze's reduced variables to run his oblivion engine makes some degree of sense.



Why he doesn't take a jump into one of the oblivion patches that're cropping up, I dunno. He's probably being a jerk and trying to take a bunch of other Minmaxes (Minmaxi?) with him.

Yeah, the reality is, he isnt sympathetic at all, he is a monster. He doesnt want to just stop existing, like you said, all that would take is leaping headfirst into a hole. He wants to erase reality, and this small pocket of existence is the best he can manage to pull off. Of course, there might also be a touch of int versus wis here. I can see him using virtually everything as a dump stat to boost his int that much more. So he can conceive of these brilliant plans, solve all the riddles of existence, and yet not be wise enough to come in out of the rain while he is dismantling the fundamental rules of reality. So in this case, he wont be happy till his plan works, even though he could still have his own personal oblivion right here and now. It just doesnt even occur to him, because all he is focused on is making his original plan work.

Marnath
2013-05-05, 12:41 PM
Have you ever seen the inside of a juan-ti? :smallamused:
For all we know, Thunt could have decided that all the vital organs are in the human torso, and the tail is simply like our legs, or a little more.

BTW, even in the first appearance of Psimax, he exploded the tail of its reality's Kin (even if not is such a massive way). In the end he killed her with a head boom, 'cause she was still alive.

Something like this probably. :smalltongue:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/Internal_Naga_Anatomy_by_sugarpeep_zps09ee94fc.jpg By Sugarpeep on deviantart

Ravens_cry
2013-05-05, 01:00 PM
Even if her anatomy is more human, with no vital organs in the 'tail', that's not a good thing. People who get legs blown off from mines, for example, frequently die from the massive blood loss, as the femoral artery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femoral_artery) when severed or cut bleeds like a geyser.

Strawberries
2013-05-05, 01:07 PM
Even if her anatomy is more human, with no vital organs in the 'tail', that's not a good thing. People who get legs blown off from mines, for example, frequently die from the massive blood loss, as the femoral artery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femoral_artery) when severed or cut bleeds like a geyser.

Yup, and that's where my comparison with lizard stops... apparently lizards that can shed their tail have a way to compress the veins to halt the blood loss. There is definitely too much blood in the scene to be a good thing... but still, with a cleric nearby, having major organs in her tail or not can mean the difference between life and death. We'll see.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-05, 01:14 PM
Yup, and that's where my comparison with lizard stops... apparently lizards that can shed their tail have a way to compress the veins to halt the blood loss. There is definitely too much blood in the scene to be a good thing... but still, with a cleric nearby, having major organs in her tail or not can mean the difference between life and death. We'll see.
It would also make little sense biologically for Yuan-ti to have such an ability. After all, Lizards shed their tails to provide a distraction as they make a getaway, having a means of propulsion, legs, to effect an escape.
For Kin, her tail is her means of propulsion.

HandofShadows
2013-05-05, 01:19 PM
For Kin, her tail is her means of propulsion.

It was her means of propulsion. :smallfrown::smalleek::smallfrown:

The Linker
2013-05-05, 02:35 PM
Holy crap. I just trawled a bit forward from NEO|Phyte's page link, and I got to reread panel 9, here (http://www.goblinscomic.com/01132012/).

I just realized this is foreshadowing how Minmax was able to know that Kin was hurt. I hadn't put that together.

Traab
2013-05-05, 04:38 PM
Holy crap. I just trawled a bit forward from NEO|Phyte's page link, and I got to reread panel 9, here (http://www.goblinscomic.com/01132012/).

I just realized this is foreshadowing how Minmax was able to know that Kin was hurt. I hadn't put that together.

Well it certainly explains it. And its really just confirmation of something everyone reading the comic already knew. Minmax and Kin, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G! heh, At least if they ever get around to talking about how Minmax knew kin was in trouble it might finally hit her with the clue by four she will need to understand that yeah, it CAN happen, and it has.

Marnath
2013-05-05, 04:43 PM
I still like the theory that Minmax knows what happened to Kin because his player is meta-gaming. :smallamused:

Ravens_cry
2013-05-05, 07:56 PM
When something is claimed to be impossible, most of the time it turns out to be very possible. If it was truly impossible, it would not have been mentioned.

Marnath
2013-05-05, 08:09 PM
When something is claimed to be impossible, most of the time it turns out to be very possible. If it was truly impossible, it would not have been mentioned.

What is this in response to?:smallconfused:

BannedInSchool
2013-05-05, 08:12 PM
Naw, since she's not in negatives all she needs is some rest and she'll fix right up none the worse for wear.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-05, 08:13 PM
What is this in response to?:smallconfused:
The foreshadowing about the allegedly Yuan-ti only "trueseeing".

Marnath
2013-05-05, 08:30 PM
The foreshadowing about the allegedly Yuan-ti only "trueseeing".

Well, don't put it past Thunt to add in a detail like that and never use it. With most people that would be a safe bet, but this is a guy who drew a beautiful masterwork sword on multiple pages when F&M went to that tavern to make people say "Oh, how obvious it is that Minmax will get that nice sword!" and then that never happens. He's quite the admitted troll after all.

The Linker
2013-05-05, 08:40 PM
Thunt often goes into an extreme amount of detail on relatively unimportant things -- like all the exposition given by the alternate team they'd just fought on their lots-of-rings universe, or the veritable speech given on the intricacies of Sunset Fever. It didn't seem too out of place. Thunt likes to share the details he hashes out about stuff.

Marnath
2013-05-05, 09:05 PM
Thunt often goes into an extreme amount of detail on relatively unimportant things -- like all the exposition given by the alternate team they'd just fought on their lots-of-rings universe, or the veritable speech given on the intricacies of Sunset Fever. It didn't seem too out of place. Thunt likes to share the details he hashes out about stuff.

No, I mean he said on the livestream that he literally put that sword there to troll the people who were saying every little detail was a Chekhov's gun.

The Linker
2013-05-05, 09:17 PM
I was supporting your side, not disputing it. :smalltongue:

I was just talking about why the 'truly impossible' thing didn't necessarily ping as a blatant bit of foreshadowing the first time around.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-06, 12:53 AM
The foreshadowing about the allegedly Yuan-ti only "trueseeing".

obviously minmax is part yuan-ti ;)

TheSummoner
2013-05-06, 12:57 AM
obviously minmax is part yuan-ti ;)

He got that by trading his ability to snap his fingers. :smallbiggrin:

Traab
2013-05-06, 05:46 AM
Thunt often goes into an extreme amount of detail on relatively unimportant things -- like all the exposition given by the alternate team they'd just fought on their lots-of-rings universe, or the veritable speech given on the intricacies of Sunset Fever. It didn't seem too out of place. Thunt likes to share the details he hashes out about stuff.

While I can give you the sunset fever to an extent, although that too was needed to show fox why she really hadnt escaped her destiny, the alternate universe thing is actually something a lot of people were very curious about. "Oooh! Look at those guys! I wonder what happened to make them look like that!"

Killer Angel
2013-05-06, 01:28 PM
Something like this probably. :smalltongue:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/marnath1/Internal_Naga_Anatomy_by_sugarpeep_zps09ee94fc.jpg By Sugarpeep on deviantart

You can really find anything, on internet, right? :smalltongue:


Even if her anatomy is more human, with no vital organs in the 'tail', that's not a good thing. People who get legs blown off from mines, for example, frequently die from the massive blood loss, as the femoral artery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femoral_artery) when severed or cut bleeds like a geyser.

Of course yes, but they're alive for some rounds. Which is the point: actually kin doesn't seems dead. But she's certainly going to die, unless something is going to happen in a short amount of time.

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-06, 06:58 PM
You can really find anything, on internet, right? :smalltongue:



Of course yes, but they're alive for some rounds. Which is the point: actually kin doesn't seems dead. But she's certainly going to die, unless something is going to happen in a short amount of time.

Thing is, Kin isn't displaying any negative numbers, which would mean she's either still got hit-points left or she's flat-out dead (I suspect PsiMax might have dealt massive damage: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage ) to her)

Anteros
2013-05-06, 08:24 PM
I don't think we've ever seen a "main" character die without the numbers. It's probably a safe bet to say she's still alive until we see them.

It makes sense from a literary standpoint too. If she was dead it makes more sense to make it clear to the audience in order to increase the emotional response. The fact that it's been left ambiguous means she's probably alive.

BannedInSchool
2013-05-06, 09:08 PM
Still moving and no red -10 should pretty much mean not dead. :smallwink: However, it's not inconceivable that the comic may not hold to all wounds either killing you in a minute or not at all, and she will progress to negative numbers (or even directly to -10) without further injury.

ThirdEmperor
2013-05-06, 09:27 PM
I find it unlikely Kin's about to die. All meta-reasoning aside, we've already seen one Kin survive this kind of injury- The one from Psimax's native verse. She didn't die up until he made her brains explode as well, so, I'm fairly certain there's nothing too important in that tail.

Besides. Psimax isn't the type to go for a quick kill.

TheSummoner
2013-05-06, 09:30 PM
I find it unlikely Kin's about to die. All meta-reasoning aside, we've already seen one Kin survive this kind of injury- The one from Psimax's native verse. She didn't die up until he made her brains explode as well, so, I'm fairly certain there's nothing too important in that tail.

Besides. Psimax isn't the type to go for a quick kill.

I thought as much when I first saw this page, but looking back, what Psimax did to the Kin from his universe was on a much smaller scale. He only exploded the tip of her tail instead of... Well, the entire thing.

Not saying there's no way they can save Kin (or re-do the maze, undoing her death), just that while the two tail-splosions are similar, they're not the same.

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-07, 07:48 AM
I have a theory: One of the prizes in the main room is some kind of artifact that can cast Regeneration, and they're going to use that on Kin.

Further and more wacky sub-theory: Because PsiMax has destroyed Kin's snake half, the Regeneration spell will regenerate from her human upper half and give her a fully human body.

Traab
2013-05-07, 08:11 AM
I have a theory: One of the prizes in the main room is some kind of artifact that can cast Regeneration, and they're going to use that on Kin.

Further and more wacky sub-theory: Because PsiMax has destroyed Kin's snake half, the Regeneration spell will regenerate from her human upper half and give her a fully human body.

I would hope not, because that would be really screwed up. She isnt human, she is yuan ti, and that would just be really screwy. The last thing she would need right now is to lose her racial identity on top of everything else she has been through.

genderlich
2013-05-07, 10:50 PM
New comic is up.

Kin's alive! And hopefully about to heal herself so she doesn't bleed out! Even though Psimax and Forgath apparently think otherwise.

Landis963
2013-05-07, 11:11 PM
:smallannoyed: Psimax, I am disappoint.

You're really going for the "above good and evil" argument? You have committed atrocity after atrocity, starting with killing the rest of your team (several hundred times, if the counter works the way I expect it to) and ending with exploding Kin's lower half. And saying "I didn't write the rules" doesn't save you from accusations of evil-ness when you are trying to work within them to remove a pocket universe from existence.

Giggling Ghast
2013-05-07, 11:13 PM
Crawl, girl, crawl … :smallfrown:

The Linker
2013-05-08, 12:16 AM
Kin's so great. She never, ever gives up.

I guess there's still healing potion in that cup? I kinda forgot about that. My first thought was that she was going to, uh... call up some blood to help counteract the blood loss.

Then I realized that doesn't actually make any sense.

Man, she still doesn't have any numbers above her head. How much HP does she have!?

Marnath
2013-05-08, 12:35 AM
Kin's so great. She never, ever gives up.

I guess there's still healing potion in that cup? I kinda forgot about that. My first thought was that she was going to, uh... call up some blood to help counteract the blood loss.

Then I realized that doesn't actually make any sense.

Man, she still doesn't have any numbers above her head. How much HP does she have!?

38, if she's a standard half-blood yuan-ti. As much as 63 if she rolled max points.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-08, 01:56 AM
Come on, Kin, you can do it!:smalleek:

HandofShadows
2013-05-08, 03:36 AM
Go Kin! Don't give up!

Spuddles
2013-05-08, 03:40 AM
:smallannoyed: Psimax, I am disappoint.

You're really going for the "above good and evil" argument? You have committed atrocity after atrocity, starting with killing the rest of your team (several hundred times, if the counter works the way I expect it to) and ending with exploding Kin's lower half. And saying "I didn't write the rules" doesn't save you from accusations of evil-ness when you are trying to work within them to remove a pocket universe from existence.

In D&D, if you kill enough people for the right reasons, you're not evil. You may not be good, but you're not evil, either.

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-08, 06:00 AM
Well, that was interesting. Appearantly Kin still has hp left, and I wonder what's happened to Minmax?

Killer Angel
2013-05-08, 06:08 AM
Appearantly Kin still has hp left, and I wonder what's happened to Minmax?

One thing at a time. Actually, i'm crossing my fingers for crawling Kin.
AH! we were right, she's still alive! :smalltongue:

Traab
2013-05-08, 06:11 AM
"I didnt make the rules therefore its not my fault that my necessary actions are evil." Thats the best a minmax with insane int could come up with? Really? "I didnt create the laws of physics, therefore its not my fault that activating my abilities turns her entire lower body into a fine bloody mist" Ummmm, yes. Yes it is. You know those laws and used them to intentionally turn her lower body into a gore filled mist. Sooooooo yeah. Its your fault that an evil act was committed. And using a fallacy like, "Well a dozen people have died in the last 30 seconds in the tower room, so how is this so bad" doesnt hold water either. I cant think of its official term but its basically one of those, "Why are you worrying about freeing willy, when the japanese fishing fleets are slaughtering dozens more whales every week?" type arguments.

HandofShadows
2013-05-08, 06:37 AM
It's called "rationalizing" or "avoiding responsibility". "It's someone elses fault, so I didn't do anything wrong!" Charles Manson does the same thing.

CowardlyPaladin
2013-05-08, 10:35 AM
In D&D, if you kill enough people for the right reasons, you're not evil. You may not be good, but you're not evil, either.

That actually isn't true at least according to the BoEDs.

Anyways, does anybody know where the Demon FAQ is? I read it once and wanted to remind me of how Demons work in this comic, but I can't find it :(

TheSummoner
2013-05-08, 11:22 AM
Really, if he wanted to justify exploding Kin, he could've atleast tried the "She was strangling me" arguement. Of course after that he's have to have an excuse for trying to use her leash, but somehow that seems easier to justify through need for 100% accurate information than exploding the entire lower half of someone's body.

snoopy13a
2013-05-08, 01:10 PM
It's called "rationalizing" or "avoiding responsibility". "It's someone elses fault, so I didn't do anything wrong!" Charles Manson does the same thing.

Overall, it was a clichéd villain speech. I'm bored of PsiMax; hopefully, this story arc will be over soon.

t209
2013-05-08, 01:17 PM
Crawl, girl, crawl … :smallfrown:
Which one?
will Kin choose? a promotion for Psychic MinMax to guard in the North, hell, or liquid that can harm him (not acid).

HandofShadows
2013-05-08, 01:19 PM
Which one?
will Kin choose? a promotion for Psychic MinMax to guard in the North, hell, or liquid that can harm him (not acid).

The cup still has some healing potion in it from the river.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-08, 01:53 PM
Which one?
will Kin choose? a promotion for Psychic MinMax to guard in the North, hell, or liquid that can harm him (not acid).

I have


No idea what you just said.

CowardlyPaladin
2013-05-08, 04:07 PM
also is their a catalogue of all of hte alt realities, because i know their were more pages explaining them than what I saw

t209
2013-05-08, 04:54 PM
I have


No idea what you just said.
I mean
throw the arrow at psi max or take the cup and use some kind of liquid that harms Psion (I know it can't make acid but I don't play D&D and need to know the weakness of Psion).

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-08, 05:19 PM
psions probably aren't harmed by anything that doesn't harm anyone else, they're really judy normal people with psychic powers, hense the name. the arms are soley unique to Psimax and if they did have any weakness to like, water or whatever, it hasn't been shown to us beforehand, and kin has no possible way to know or even suspect that to be the case, Thunt is smarter then to throw in some random deus-ex machina like that this late into the story.

Also, thrown arrows are kind of incredibly weak, unless psimax only has one hitpoint i doubt it would be at all effective, and even then she would need to crawl her way after him, loosing more blood, and risking alerting him to her presance. A much safer bet is that she's probably going to just drink whatever healing potion is left in the anymug to bind her wounds. after that it's hard to say, try to help her own minmax get up to her somehow, but you never know.

sihnfahl
2013-05-08, 05:44 PM
Well, since the anymug can create any non-magical liquid that's not acidic...

It can still create poisons. Non-acidic, non-magical.

And she has the delivery system...

Ravens_cry
2013-05-08, 06:43 PM
Well, since the anymug can create any non-magical liquid that's not acidic...

It can still create poisons. Non-acidic, non-magical.

And she has the delivery system...
Not to mention the lovely extremely flammable oil trick used earlier. Sure, the last time it was used on a guy who was half wood, but it still would likely . . . inconvenience.

Anteros
2013-05-08, 06:51 PM
That scene never made sense anyway. In real life flesh is quite flammable. Especially if you soak it in oil first. It made no sense that only the wood bits would light.

She's going for the healing potion by the way.

Spuddles
2013-05-08, 07:01 PM
That scene never made sense anyway. In real life flesh is quite flammable. Especially if you soak it in oil first. It made no sense that only the wood bits would light.

She's going for the healing potion by the way.

Flesh isn't very flammable. It's like 80-90% water. The dermis is comparatively flammable because of the dry outer layer of dead skin and a fat layer underneath. Flesh only burns if you boil most of the water out of it. Otherwise you just get some charring of the skin, which then peels back.

sihnfahl
2013-05-08, 07:25 PM
She's going for the healing potion by the way.
Drink healing potion.
Use now-empty anymug for a potent natural poison.
Apply to arrowhead.
Stab unaware Psimax.

The Linker
2013-05-08, 07:25 PM
Not to mention the lovely extremely flammable oil trick used earlier. Sure, the last time it was used on a guy who was half wood, but it still would likely . . . inconvenience.

She could do the oil trick, but she's got no fire to go along with it. Though... if it's really good oil, I guess she could dip the arrow in it and scrape it along the ground? Hmm.


That scene never made sense anyway. In real life flesh is quite flammable. Especially if you soak it in oil first. It made no sense that only the wood bits would light.

To be fair, the oil only got on the wood part. I mean, yeah, it's strange that the fire would have stopped just because it got through all the oil, but...

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-08, 08:05 PM
To be fair, the oil only got on the wood part. I mean, yeah, it's strange that the fire would have stopped just because it got through all the oil, but...

The fire stopped because he jumped in a water barrel, IIRC.

The Linker
2013-05-08, 09:42 PM
The fire stopped because he jumped in a water barrel, IIRC.

Dun look like it. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03292010/) Seems to just... stop. It doesn't even get all of his hair! :smallconfused:

But then, not the first time fire has burned exactly what was needed to create the most horrifying imagery -- consider Two-Face in The Dark Knight. The eye would have been one of the first things to go. From what I've read.

Marnath
2013-05-08, 11:31 PM
Dun look like it. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03292010/) Seems to just... stop. It doesn't even get all of his hair! :smallconfused:

But then, not the first time fire has burned exactly what was needed to create the most horrifying imagery -- consider Two-Face in The Dark Knight. The eye would have been one of the first things to go. From what I've read.

With Two-Face it was acid, not fire. They just missed the eye is all.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-08, 11:31 PM
Dun look like it. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03292010/) Seems to just... stop. It doesn't even get all of his hair! :smallconfused:

But then, not the first time fire has burned exactly what was needed to create the most horrifying imagery -- consider Two-Face in The Dark Knight. The eye would have been one of the first things to go. From what I've read.
I don't know, his gibbled speech just makes it almost narmful more than horrifying, at least in that last panel.

Vknight
2013-05-08, 11:51 PM
PsiMax reminds me of a lot of Final Fantasy villains
And other baddies like that.

Huh

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-09, 01:19 AM
Well, since the anymug can create any non-magical liquid that's not acidic...

It can still create poisons. Non-acidic, non-magical.

And she has the delivery system...

a very good point, toucche. it would still require getting uncomffortably close however.

TheSummoner
2013-05-09, 01:19 AM
So... I went on a bit of an archive binge. Things to consider:

"Oblivion cannot be obtained, created, or summoned. That would be a contradiction." (http://www.goblinscomic.com/12062011/)

"Did you just paradoxically replicate oblivion?" "No. Maybe. Kind of." (http://www.goblinscomic.com/02072012/)

"So the sword can affect, but it can't be affected except by Minmax, its creator. Interesting." (http://www.goblinscomic.com/02102012/)

"If we perform an action that both utilizes an oblivion hole as a prominent variable and alters all of our future actions, our activities will be as invisible to him as his are to us!" (http://www.goblinscomic.com/12212012/)

GiantITP, are you pondering what I'm pondering?

What has Psimax's opening move been every time someone tried to attack him? When his universe's Kin attacked him, he exploded the dagger (and the end of her tail since she was holding it with that). When Forgath came at him, he exploded Forgath's mace. When Kin tried to strangle him, he exploded her tail.

When Minmax tries to attack him, what do you think he's going to do?

He will try to explode Minmax's sword, but Minmax's sword technically doesn't exist. It can only be affected by Minmax. Psimax CAN'T explode it. And because the sword was created using the oblivion hole, he has no way of knowing anything about the sword or its capabilities, most importantly the fact that he CAN'T explode it. That bit of wasted time will be all it it takes for Minmax to beat him.

Landis963
2013-05-09, 01:30 AM
GiantITP, are you pondering what I'm pondering?

I think so, Brain, but how's the Order going to break out of that illusion? :smalltongue:



What has Psimax's opening move been every time someone tried to attack him? When his universe's Kin attacked him, he exploded the dagger (and the end of her tail since she was holding it with that). When Forgath came at him, he exploded Forgath's mace. When Kin tried to strangle him, he exploded her tail.

When Minmax tries to attack him, what do you think he's going to do?

He will try to explode Minmax's sword, but Minmax's sword technically doesn't exist. It can only be affected by Minmax. Psimax CAN'T explode it. And because the sword was created using the oblivion hole, he has no way of knowing anything about the sword or its capabilities, most importantly the fact that he CAN'T explode it. That bit of wasted time will be all it it takes for Minmax to beat him.

How're Minmax and Psimax going to come in contact, especially since the door is closed? Unless you're suggesting that loot is preserved between runs.

TheSummoner
2013-05-09, 01:40 AM
That's a piece of the puzzle I don't have yet. I'm just assuming it will fall into place, much like any good master plan.

http://www.alaskacommons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/UnderpantsGnomesPlan.jpg

Edit: One possibility is Forgath doesn't tell Psimax what he needs to know so Psimax decides to try to get the information from Minmax.

The Linker
2013-05-09, 02:20 AM
With Two-Face it was acid, not fire. They just missed the eye is all.

I specified The Dark Knight. NolanVerse Two-Face.


I don't know, his gibbled speech just makes it almost narmful more than horrifying, at least in that last panel.

Which is rather tangential to my point, both in that I was speaking just of his physical appearance, and that horrifying is what Thunt was going for. Forgath himself calls it the most gruesome thing he's ever seen.


How're Minmax and Psimax going to come in contact, especially since the door is closed? Unless you're suggesting that loot is preserved between runs.

I don't think loot is preserved through runs, but the Oblivion Sword? I think that bends a few rules.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-09, 02:41 AM
I specified The Dark Knight. NolanVerse Two-Face.



Which is rather tangential to my point, both in that I was speaking just of his physical appearance, and that horrifying is what Thunt was going for. Forgath himself calls it the most gruesome thing he's ever seen.

And if I saw something like that in 'real life', I bet it would be.
But horrifying was not the effect made, at least for me.
It was a pathetic end for a petty little being.

Killer Angel
2013-05-09, 06:13 AM
GiantITP, are you pondering what I'm pondering?

What has Psimax's opening move been every time someone tried to attack him? When his universe's Kin attacked him, he exploded the dagger (and the end of her tail since she was holding it with that). When Forgath came at him, he exploded Forgath's mace. When Kin tried to strangle him, he exploded her tail.

When Minmax tries to attack him, what do you think he's going to do?

He will try to explode Minmax's sword, but Minmax's sword technically doesn't exist. It can only be affected by Minmax. Psimax CAN'T explode it. And because the sword was created using the oblivion hole, he has no way of knowing anything about the sword or its capabilities, most importantly the fact that he CAN'T explode it. That bit of wasted time will be all it it takes for Minmax to beat him.

Interesting. Yes, it's a possibility.


How're Minmax and Psimax going to come in contact, especially since the door is closed?

Who knows? This is where Thunt can come up with strange ideas, kinda like the axe and the rope in the fight against Kore...

Winterwind
2013-05-09, 07:25 AM
How're Minmax and Psimax going to come in contact, especially since the door is closed? Unless you're suggesting that loot is preserved between runs.You're forgetting that Kin and Forgath did not get up there through the door either. The way they used - the ceiling broken by an oblivion hole - is still perfectly usable. Getting to it would be extremely difficult for Minmax - he would have to disengage from this fight, descend the tower, and locate the corridor they would have entered the tower room through had they not used the ceiling hole - but it is not impossible.

Traab
2013-05-09, 07:34 AM
You're forgetting that Kin and Forgath did not get up there through the door either. The way they used - the ceiling broken by an oblivion hole - is still perfectly usable. Getting to it would be extremely difficult for Minmax - he would have to disengage from this fight, descend the tower, and locate the corridor they would have entered the tower room through had they not used the ceiling hole - but it is not impossible.

He would also need someone to give him a boost, as he had to lift kin up there then climb her tail.

Aquillion
2013-05-09, 08:14 AM
He would also need someone to give him a boost, as he had to lift kin up there then climb her tail.Or Psymax might come to him to figure out what the issue is.

sihnfahl
2013-05-09, 09:12 AM
He would also need someone to give him a boost, as he had to lift kin up there then climb her tail.
Not to mention the Zombie Horde they were fleeing from...


You're forgetting that Kin and Forgath did not get up there through the door either. The way they used - the ceiling broken by an oblivion hole - is still perfectly usable.
Don't forget that Minmax also tore off one of those rock symbols and jammed it into that hole to keep things from coming up from below...

Traab
2013-05-09, 10:02 AM
Thinking on it, I agree with The Summoner. That would be an awesome way to end the fight. Psimax doesnt know about his sword yet, goes to destroy it and "oopps! Recoil!"

Starbuck_II
2013-05-09, 12:38 PM
She could do the oil trick, but she's got no fire to go along with it. Though... if it's really good oil, I guess she could dip the arrow in it and scrape it along the ground? Hmm.



To be fair, the oil only got on the wood part. I mean, yeah, it's strange that the fire would have stopped just because it got through all the oil, but...

But that is how oil burning works in D&D.

Alias
2013-05-09, 12:59 PM
So... I went on a bit of an archive binge. Things to consider:

"Oblivion cannot be obtained, created, or summoned. That would be a contradiction." (http://www.goblinscomic.com/12062011/)

"Did you just paradoxically replicate oblivion?" "No. Maybe. Kind of." (http://www.goblinscomic.com/02072012/)

"So the sword can affect, but it can't be affected except by Minmax, its creator. Interesting." (http://www.goblinscomic.com/02102012/)

"If we perform an action that both utilizes an oblivion hole as a prominent variable and alters all of our future actions, our activities will be as invisible to him as his are to us!" (http://www.goblinscomic.com/12212012/)

GiantITP, are you pondering what I'm pondering?

What has Psimax's opening move been every time someone tried to attack him? When his universe's Kin attacked him, he exploded the dagger (and the end of her tail since she was holding it with that). When Forgath came at him, he exploded Forgath's mace. When Kin tried to strangle him, he exploded her tail.

When Minmax tries to attack him, what do you think he's going to do?

He will try to explode Minmax's sword, but Minmax's sword technically doesn't exist. It can only be affected by Minmax. Psimax CAN'T explode it. And because the sword was created using the oblivion hole, he has no way of knowing anything about the sword or its capabilities, most importantly the fact that he CAN'T explode it. That bit of wasted time will be all it it takes for Minmax to beat him.

That still requires PsiMax to be stupid and let him close. He can telekineticly move anyone at will and doesn't have to let MinMax get anywhere near close enough to use the sword.

As I said before, he's an unbeatable Villain Sue. There is no satisfactory victory possible - and Thunt's should be ashamed for writing such a stupid character.

Traab
2013-05-09, 01:07 PM
That still requires PsiMax to be stupid and let him close. He can telekineticly move anyone at will and doesn't have to let MinMax get anywhere near close enough to use the sword.

As I said before, he's an unbeatable Villain Sue. There is no satisfactory victory possible - and Thunt's should be ashamed for writing such a stupid character.

He isnt unbeatable, hell, a panicky kin nearly managed to kill him. She doesnt even have a freaking class level! I am hoping for his attempt to obliterate oblivious to backfire on him. Not just not work, but basically cause him to hurt himself instead. But even the distraction factor might let minmax get close enough to decapitate the bastard.

Here is what I am seeing. Psimax is a gorram moron. Why? Because he has just brought forgath into the heart of his little lair. The doomsday device is right there. All it takes is one little mistake and he is going to get wrecked. There was no reason for this. Just torture forgath till he talks and then explode his head. He is just picking up the idiot ball and running with it. The fact that kin is still alive just compounds it further. He is flunking virtually every rule of the evil overlord list that applies.

Starbuck_II
2013-05-09, 01:10 PM
That still requires PsiMax to be stupid and let him close. He can telekineticly move anyone at will and doesn't have to let MinMax get anywhere near close enough to use the sword.

As I said before, he's an unbeatable Villain Sue. There is no satisfactory victory possible - and Thunt's should be ashamed for writing such a stupid character.

PsiMax is smart, but he has the same problem every Minmax has. They have no Wisdom. Minmax is just smarten up enough to ultilize his low Wisdom; PsiMax has not.

TheSummoner
2013-05-09, 01:12 PM
Much like he had to be stupid to get close enough for Kin to try strangling him, right?

The guy looks pretty frail. I'd be willing to bet he's a glass cannon. Able to dish out incredible firepower, but flat out unable to take a hit. All it would take is one mistake.

Look how close Forgath got before Psimax stopped him. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/04182013/)

Minmax is faster and his weapon has a longer reach. One mistake... Psimax trying to destroy Minmax's sword but being unable to... And Psimax is down. After that they kick his corpse into an oblivion hole so he can't just try again on the next run and intentionally lose so they can undo what happened to Kin.

Cen
2013-05-09, 03:12 PM
Look how close Forgath got before Psimax stopped him. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/04182013/)


yes, but look at his moves: He first immobilizes Forgath, then explodes his mace.
He can stop Minmax, try exploding Oblivious but even when it fails, MM is immobilized, glued to a wall.

TheSummoner
2013-05-09, 03:26 PM
Do we know that he completely immobilized Forgath? Looks to me more like he just lifted Forgath into the air, stopping his forward momentum, but doing nothing to stop him from flailing around a bit.

Traab
2013-05-09, 04:04 PM
Oh, and for the record, forgaths holy symbol is still intact. Its just not attached to a weapon atm. :p

sihnfahl
2013-05-09, 05:05 PM
Oh, and for the record, forgaths holy symbol is still intact. Its just not attached to a weapon atm. :p
Still, Forgath's a third level cleric. It's questionable how many spells he has remaining after his encounter with KinTrio and the zombies.

Othniel Edden
2013-05-09, 05:18 PM
All of this keeps reminding me of Forgath's death prophecy.

Cen
2013-05-09, 05:26 PM
All of this keeps reminding me of Forgath's death prophecy.

Unlikely. Both YaB and Wall said that it'll be dwarf, who will kill Forgath

Othniel Edden
2013-05-09, 05:36 PM
Unlikely. Both YaB and Wall said that it'll be dwarf, who will kill Forgath

Forgath could be his own Dwarf. He is dealing with a telekentic.

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-09, 05:55 PM
That still requires PsiMax to be stupid and let him close. He can telekineticly move anyone at will and doesn't have to let MinMax get anywhere near close enough to use the sword.

As I said before, he's an unbeatable Villain Sue. There is no satisfactory victory possible - and Thunt's should be ashamed for writing such a stupid character.

Ah, but there are ways he can be defeated easily enough, particularly with such weird magic as Oblivious. For example, suppose that trying to zap Oblivious drains all his power-points. Voila! He's vulnerable.

Aquillion
2013-05-09, 07:39 PM
That still requires PsiMax to be stupid and let him close. He can telekineticly move anyone at will and doesn't have to let MinMax get anywhere near close enough to use the sword.

As I said before, he's an unbeatable Villain Sue. There is no satisfactory victory possible - and Thunt's should be ashamed for writing such a stupid character.He's not invulnerable. He only has d4 HD, and he's not omniscient -- Kin very nearly killed him, remember (go back and look at the scene where she strangled him with her tail; he didn't see it coming and was seriously taking damage as a result.)

However, his biggest weakness is probably the fact that the other people in the maze would gang up on him if they knew what he was up to... and most of them, remember, have a Kin smart enough to figure it out. My prediction is that that's how he ultimately meets his end. He has finite power points and can't explode everyone in the maze if they rush him at once.

Traab
2013-05-09, 08:52 PM
He's not invulnerable. He only has d4 HD, and he's not omniscient -- Kin very nearly killed him, remember (go back and look at the scene where she strangled him with her tail; he didn't see it coming and was seriously taking damage as a result.)

However, his biggest weakness is probably the fact that the other people in the maze would gang up on him if they knew what he was up to... and most of them, remember, have a Kin smart enough to figure it out. My prediction is that that's how he ultimately meets his end. He has finite power points and can't explode everyone in the maze if they rush him at once.

Yeah but thats not an end, its just a delay. He gets swamped, then bang, he starts over again, blows up his counter, and remembers what he did wrong last time. A part of me really is hoping that minmax and crew get wiped out and the dungeon resets only this time minmax has his sword and memories, letting him counter ambush psimax who will likely try to take them out right away this time so he can create oblivion properly.

TheSummoner
2013-05-09, 09:02 PM
Unless his corpse gets tossed into an oblivion hole. Then he never existed.

sihnfahl
2013-05-09, 09:57 PM
Unless his corpse gets tossed into an oblivion hole. Then he never existed.

Unless him never existing means he never did the sequence that resulted in the holes ever being made...

Which means there was never an oblivion hole for him to be thrown into.

TheSummoner
2013-05-09, 10:08 PM
It does not, there was a blog post about how the holes work. They do not completely remove something from existence, more along the lines that they scrape it off the surface of existance.

Example 1: Minmax threw his pants in the hole. If that pair of pants had entirely been removed, he would've just bought a different pair of pants. Instead they were just scraped off the surface. The pants themselves do not exist, but the effects the pants have had on the universe (in this case, preventing Minmax from buying a different pair) are not removed.

Example 2: 1+3=4. 3 gets thrown in the oblivion hole. 1+__=4.

genderlich
2013-05-09, 10:43 PM
It does not, there was a blog post about how the holes work. They do not completely remove something from existence, more along the lines that they scrape it off the surface of existance.

Example 1: Minmax threw his pants in the hole. If that pair of pants had entirely been removed, he would've just bought a different pair of pants. Instead they were just scraped off the surface. The pants themselves do not exist, but the effects the pants have had on the universe (in this case, preventing Minmax from buying a different pair) are not removed.

Example 2: 1+3=4. 3 gets thrown in the oblivion hole. 1+__=4.

This is why Kin and Forgath were able to figure out what the holes did, right? Otherwise they'd be as clueless as Minmax and wouldn't have told him to stop throwing things in.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-10, 12:58 AM
yeah, kin realized she had never seen Minmax wearing pants or something right as the was talking about how she had never seen him in shoes, ccan't remember if she brought up pants before MM threw them into the oblivion hole, but yeah.

TheSummoner
2013-05-10, 01:55 AM
Minmax kept throwing things in the hole... Forgath and Kin kept talking...

And every time he threw something new in the hole, what they had just said a moment ago no longer made any sense.

"Don't throw your boot in the hole, you've only got one... Kinda weird, isn't it? Guy walking around with only one boot. No that's not right, he's never worn boots in his life. Pants either. Kinda weird for a guy to go through his whole life without ever wearing boots or pants. You'd think someone would've said something."

The Linker
2013-05-10, 10:55 AM
What was really interesting was when the conversation went:

"He's only ever worn one boot."

"Yup. Just one boot."

"That's weird. Why would he only wear one boot? Wait. That's not right. He's never worn any boots."

"Right. That's what I just said."


Forgath's memory of his own words was adjusted. He misremembers something he just said, two seconds ago.

Though I might argue he's actually thinking "Well, I wouldn't have said he has just one boot, because he never has. Why would I say that? I would have said he has no boots." I've had moments where there's a dissonance between what I said and what's in my head, and I've had to try and actively recreate my physical mouth movements to remember what I said.

Totally Guy
2013-05-10, 01:05 PM
I saw this and thought of Kin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/macdonnell/AppleExplosion_zps75467627.jpg

Marnath
2013-05-10, 02:22 PM
I saw this and thought of Kin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/macdonnell/AppleExplosion_zps75467627.jpg

You are a bad person. :smallbiggrin:

RadagastTheBrow
2013-05-10, 04:18 PM
I noticed a lot of people pointing out that the AnyMug can make anything but acids or magical liquids, right? Well, Kin's smart. How about something on the opposite end of the pH scale? Could the Mug create really really strong, hurty alkaline liquids?

Anteros
2013-05-10, 09:15 PM
I noticed a lot of people pointing out that the AnyMug can make anything but acids or magical liquids, right? Well, Kin's smart. How about something on the opposite end of the pH scale? Could the Mug create really really strong, hurty alkaline liquids?

Probably could. I really doubt it gets used offensively though...if for no other reason than that it's already been done against Goblinslayer and would be repetitive and anti-climactic.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-11, 04:22 AM
actually if you are going by PH levels, heavy bases have the same effect as heavy acids, they still melt through things, burn to the touch, and are incredibly dangerous. it's just that bases feel more like a soap as it does so.

The Glyphstone
2013-05-11, 09:51 AM
actually if you are going by PH levels, heavy bases have the same effect as heavy acids, they still melt through things, burn to the touch, and are incredibly dangerous. it's just that bases feel more like a soap as it does so.

"Aaaaaahg....it's melting through my flesh and dissolving my bones!.....but the wound it's leaving behind is sparkly clean, at least."

Radar
2013-05-11, 11:07 AM
"Aaaaaahg....it's melting through my flesh and dissolving my bones!.....but the wound it's leaving behind is sparkly clean, at least."
"My last breath was also the mintiest." :smalltongue:

And if someone had a few more points in Knowledge: Chemistry, then there is an astonishing number of substances, which are more then simply deadly. Let's face it: if there are chemicals, that can set sand on fire (http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time.php) on contact, then sky is the limit (or not even that, since we invented numerous way to blow ourselves even higher up). Honestly, pick your poison.

CowardlyPaladin
2013-05-11, 11:20 AM
That still requires PsiMax to be stupid and let him close. He can telekineticly move anyone at will and doesn't have to let MinMax get anywhere near close enough to use the sword.

As I said before, he's an unbeatable Villain Sue. There is no satisfactory victory possible - and Thunt's should be ashamed for writing such a stupid character.


If you have a mid level psion up against a low level party, isn't it always going to seem like a Mary Sue? PsiMax might be a level 8-12 Psion, it just seems impossible because we are up against a level 4 party. I mean, considering how balanced D&D is...

Also, assuming that PsiMax is as cheap as all of the other MinMax, how many Power Points does he have left. From the top of my head he has

1: Destroyed his Frogoth's head
2: Wounded his kin
3: Blew up his Kin's tail
4: Killed his kin
5: Teleported to where the main group are
6: Pulled MinMax and his wall over to them
7: Moved Scorpin Kin's body away for no apparent reason
8: Tortured MinMax
9: Tortured Kin
10: Destroyed their collors
11: Teleported away
12: Put Forgoth against the wall
13: Put Kin against the wall
12: Destroyed Kin's Tail (again, why is the blood color different)
13: Knocked Forgoth's Helmet aside
14: Dragged Forgoth with him into the other room
That is discounting the possibly that messing with the Maze of the Many cost Power Points. Now I know some of those are really minor actions, but assuming that he is roughly within the 8-12 range, how many does he have left?

Edit:
I forgot, he destroyed Forgoth's Mace, and destoryed the Keys

Also does anybody know where that Demon FAQ can be found, I really am trying to remember how Demons work in Thunts world

The Glyphstone
2013-05-11, 11:27 AM
He did minmax his Int score, which controls bonus PP, and we don't know by how much. So it's hard to say.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-11, 11:40 AM
actually if you are going by PH levels, heavy bases have the same effect as heavy acids, they still melt through things, burn to the touch, and are incredibly dangerous. it's just that bases feel more like a soap as it does so.
And that's no lye! Many strong bases are actually more dangerous than comparably strong acids in corrosive to human flesh.

Vknight
2013-05-11, 07:38 PM
I saw this and thought of Kin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/macdonnell/AppleExplosion_zps75467627.jpg

The taste is going to move you.
It's such a juicy fruit.

Kin really is a messy person, she just leaves things hanging all over the place

TheSummoner
2013-05-11, 07:44 PM
again, why is the blood color different

Because that's not blood. That's what's left of her tail.

CowardlyPaladin
2013-05-11, 11:20 PM
Because that's not blood. That's what's left of her tail.

oh.......ewwwww

zimmerwald1915
2013-05-11, 11:31 PM
And that's no lye!
Did you have to? :smallsigh:

Marnath
2013-05-12, 12:11 AM
Did you have to? :smallsigh:

I'm going to assume that it was strictly necessary in this instance, yes.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-12, 12:35 AM
Did you have to? :smallsigh:
Did I have to? Perhaps not, but puns are what I base much of my humour off of.

Starbuck_II
2013-05-12, 04:03 AM
New comic:

So losing a tail just drops you to 0 hps.
After crawling/moving, she starts dying.

Killer Angel
2013-05-12, 04:19 AM
New comic:

So losing a tail just drops you to 0 hps.
After crawling/moving, she starts dying.


Well, at least psimax' deduction is right.

Winterwind
2013-05-12, 04:19 AM
Hmmm. Ordinarily, a character with 0 hit points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#disabled) would be allowed to take a single move action each round without taking damage, but I guess her losing her regular means of locomotion may mean that moving is a strenuous action for her now. Either that, or Thunt is taking bleeding out into account somehow.

So, speculations on how the Anymug moved to her! Here would be the ways I can think of, in no particular order:
- Psimax saw what she was doing, and decided to be merciful for some reason (which may or may not be related to seeing Minmax).
- Forgath had some spell left that was able to move the Anymug (maybe summoning a celestial badger that pushed it to her, or something).
- Kin suddenly discovered she has psion powers herself (as Yuan-Ti frequently do).
- Kin, in her desperation, decided to take a PC class herself (and went with Wizard or Psion).
- There is something or somebody else with them whom neither we nor they have seen thus far.

EDIT:

Yep, Kin is in red numbers, now. I hope she got the time/strenght to do something, ala "fill the anymug with her own blood", or similarGiven there's a high chance there's still healing potion from the river inside the Anymug, that would be highly counterproductive. :smalltongue:

She has 6 rounds left (will die in the 7th), anyway, provided she does not stabilize in any one of them (for which, in regular D&D, she would have about 47% chance right now), in which case she'd have much more time than that.

Twig
2013-05-12, 04:50 AM
So none of you noticed somebody put the anymug in front of Kin? :D There's even a sound effect of the mug hitting the ground. Not to mention Kin looking up in surprise.

I think this could be either Minmax or Psimax. Psimax might want to keep her alive as he witnessed Minamx wielding oblivion. Or Minmax got up there somehow.

Winterwind
2013-05-12, 04:52 AM
So none of you noticed somebody put the anymug in front of Kin? :D There's even a sound effect of the mug hitting the ground. Not to mention Kin looking up in surprise....how about the guy who posted right above you? Including a whole list of possible speculations as to what that might be? :smalltongue:

Twig
2013-05-12, 04:53 AM
...how about the guy who posted right above you? Including a whole list of possible speculations as to what that might be? :smalltongue:

Sorry, didnt see that when I posted :D

Radar
2013-05-12, 05:01 AM
Hmmm. Ordinarily, a character with 0 hit points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#disabled) would be allowed to take a single move action each round without taking damage, but I guess her losing her regular means of locomotion may mean that moving is a strenuous action for her now. Either that, or Thunt is taking bleeding out into account somehow.

So, speculations on how the Anymug moved to her! Here would be the ways I can think of, in no particular order:
- Psimax saw what she was doing, and decided to be merciful for some reason (which may or may not be related to seeing Minmax).
- Forgath had some spell left that was able to move the Anymug (maybe summoning a celestial badger that pushed it to her, or something).
- Kin suddenly discovered she has psion powers herself (as Yuan-Ti frequently do).
- Kin, in her desperation, decided to take a PC class herself (and went with Wizard or Psion).
- There is something or somebody else with them whom neither we nor they have seen thus far.

For me it seems like she looks up at someone in the last panel.

Traab
2013-05-12, 06:03 AM
Crazy whacked out theory time. Minmax figured out how to travel through the oblivion holes to get to kin. Or figured out how to use his sword to MAKE an oblivion hole he could travel through. I will say no to both, if only because I REALLY dont see him staying quiet long enough for that scene to take place. Also, I thought you were immobilized when you hit negative hp?

Winterwind
2013-05-12, 06:44 AM
For me it seems like she looks up at someone in the last panel.True, which makes the speculations of her developing psion abilities quite unlikely. Pretty much leaves Psimax going merciful, Minmax somehow getting into the room, Forgath helping her out in some way (maybe by summoning something that moves the mug and which she'd be looking at now), or there being some unknown other person there.


Also, I thought you were immobilized when you hit negative hp?You are, which is exactly what we see happen in the comic. As soon as the -1 flares up, she stops moving forward.

Technically, you also go unconscious when you hit negative hp, but we've seen this particular rule ignored consistently throughout the comic (which is all fine by me, as I ignore it as well when DMing - why deny characters any chance for last words?).

Traab
2013-05-12, 07:27 AM
Even crazier, far more whacked out theory that stretches everything to the bounds of its patience. That demon kin freed owes her one. Next comic we will see not walter basically say. "You freed me so I owed you one. This is us being even." Maybe he does something better than just plopping the anymug in arms reach of her. I know its not what happened, but it would be hilarious if it was.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-12, 07:41 AM
my guess is Minbmax climbed up to her somehow, possibly using his sword and it's time-pulling not-affected features as a ladder or something somehow, idk.


THAT, or it's one or more of the tripple-kin group, i could see them having joined up not (just) because their other groups died, but because they feel that they need to look out for "themselves" so to speak. and while Kin was an enemy not too long ago, she is still Kin, still one of them, and her grievous wound (at the hands of a Minmax no less!) is driving them to take pity on her, possibly even helping out in taking out Psimax himself.

They were in the same hallway as minmax and co don't forget, if we assume the zombies weren't on their side as well, then it's possible that they just took so long to follow "our" group because they had to fight for their lives while removing the stone slab Minmax put in the way of the hole in the floor.

We have already seen "sapphire" twice now, and she does have a name. so it wouldn't count as a deus-ex or anything in my book at least.

Avaris
2013-05-12, 07:48 AM
Something that just occurred to me: whoever it is, they almost certainly know what is in the anymug (i.e. healing potion), otherwise they wouldn't have known that that was what kin was after so quickly. Whoever it is has only just appeared, as Kin didn't see them before putting her head down (for me, this rules out Minmax, he ain't subtle enough), and knows she needs the healing potion that is in that mug (a lot of people would appear on the scene, see her horribly wounded and not realise she is going for the mug at all)

Winterwind
2013-05-12, 07:52 AM
Even crazier, far more whacked out theory that stretches everything to the bounds of its patience. That demon kin freed owes her one. Next comic we will see not walter basically say. "You freed me so I owed you one. This is us being even." Maybe he does something better than just plopping the anymug in arms reach of her. I know its not what happened, but it would be hilarious if it was.That doesn't even sound all that improbable to me, I could see this happening. There's just two problems I see with this: Firstly, I'm not sure how he would have been able to appear there unnoticed (he's not exactly small, and every time he appeared there was a loud rumbling noise), and secondly, I'm not sure if he even can appear there at will, especially after being explicitly ordered by someone knowing his true name to leave that place.


my guess is Minbmax climbed up to her somehow, possibly using his sword and it's time-pulling not-affected features as a ladder or something somehow, idk.If it was him, he almost certainly would have done more than just putting the mug down within her reach. He'd more likely have kneeled down at her side and gently poured some of the healing potion onto her lips, or such.

The triple-Kin-group sounds like a more probable option. They are a bit of a Chekhov's Gun at this point.

EDIT:

Something that just occurred to me: whoever it is, they almost certainly know what is in the anymug (i.e. healing potion), otherwise they wouldn't have known that that was what kin was after so quickly. Whoever it is has only just appeared, as Kin didn't see them before putting her head down (for me, this rules out Minmax, he ain't subtle enough), and knows she needs the healing potion that is in that mug (a lot of people would appear on the scene, see her horribly wounded and not realise she is going for the mug at all)Well, that depends on how much that person saw before she collapsed. I mean, she was rather obviously using all of her last strength to get to the Anymug before she collapsed; anyone who, say, saw what panels 6-8 of today's update show should be able to put two and two together.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-12, 08:09 AM
hmmm... The tripple-kin group saw forgath hold his helmate and anymug with some kind of liquid in it didn't they? Did they also see anybody drink from the helmate or did that come afterwords?

Vinyadan
2013-05-12, 08:53 AM
Crazy idea: it could be the Ugly Psionic. He needs her for something with Minmax.

HandofShadows
2013-05-12, 10:00 AM
Minmax 98? :smallconfused:

CowardlyPaladin
2013-05-12, 10:41 AM
Possibilities

1) It is Psimax, realizing that MinMax is hte one wielding the oblivion weapon, he needs leverage in order to make sure that he will tell him what happened. So he is going to keep Kin alive in order to ensure MinMax is loyal
2) Kin is using her natural psionic abilities that Yuan-ti have, meaning that hte coller was somehow damaged to hurt
3) Kin has gotten a PC level, most likely in Psion
4) Min Max is here
5) The any mug HAS A MIND OF ITS OWN


Also does anybody know where the Demon FAQ page is?

Morquard
2013-05-12, 11:02 AM
My vote is on Goblinslayer.

Makes sense? No not at all. Aside from the fact that he's dead and so far we've only seen FKM's in the dungeon (with the exception of Not-Walther).
But it's probably the last person she'd expect and would want help from :)

Well maybe Goblinslayer-Kin as a compromise?

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-12, 11:13 AM
I'm guessing Tempts Fate. Or maybe Dies Horribly, since his new hand should give him some degree of TK.

teratorn
2013-05-12, 11:27 AM
If it was him, he almost certainly would have done more than just putting the mug down within her reach. He'd more likely have kneeled down at her side and gently poured some of the healing potion onto her lips, or such.


Not necessarily, he'd need to face psimax, so kneeling down is not an option.

Traab
2013-05-12, 11:59 AM
My vote is on Goblinslayer.

Makes sense? No not at all. Aside from the fact that he's dead and so far we've only seen FKM's in the dungeon (with the exception of Not-Walther).
But it's probably the last person she'd expect and would want help from :)

Well maybe Goblinslayer-Kin as a compromise?

We have also seen some goblins in here like Names. Though too be fair, that was in the starting area where we could see the other teams. I could almost see that happening though. A kinder, gentler goblinslayer from another reality somehow made it up there (possibly through another oblivion hole) sees kins wounds and gives her the item she clearly wanted so desperately. Then kin flips out and tears his throat out in a hysterical fit.

Twig
2013-05-12, 12:06 PM
2) Kin is using her natural psionic abilities that Yuan-ti have, meaning that hte coller was somehow damaged to hurt
3) Kin has gotten a PC level, most likely in Psion
5) The any mug HAS A MIND OF ITS OWN


Those points don't work at all as Kin is clearly looking at someone (not mug) in a surprised manner. So that leaves out psionic abilities/Psion class too, because then it wouldn't be a surprise.

Man, this thread has serious overthinking going on. Seeing this and the "Why does't OotS know Redcloak has regeneration" leads me to think that playing d&d really makes some people overly anal about rules. Like, guys and gals, ease up on that. It's becoming suffocating.

Marnath
2013-05-12, 12:08 PM
My vote is on Goblinslayer.

Makes sense? No not at all. Aside from the fact that he's dead and so far we've only seen FKM's in the dungeon (with the exception of Not-Walther).
But it's probably the last person she'd expect and would want help from :)

Well maybe Goblinslayer-Kin as a compromise?

We saw her die already remember (http://www.goblinscomic.com/03282013/)?

BannedInSchool
2013-05-12, 12:48 PM
The sound effect is in Kin Green, so any AltKin we have or haven't seen would to me be the primary suspect, as all the sound effects we've seen from any of the Alts have been the same color as our primaries.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-12, 12:56 PM
Those points don't work at all as Kin is clearly looking at someone (not mug) in a surprised manner. So that leaves out psionic abilities/Psion class too, because then it wouldn't be a surprise.

Man, this thread has serious overthinking going on. Seeing this and the "Why does't OotS know Redcloak has regeneration" leads me to think that playing d&d really makes some people overly anal about rules. Like, guys and gals, ease up on that. It's becoming suffocating.

Preeeety much yup. like the people trying to find in-game spells and abilities that psimax could be using to remove the crawl from existance? and the whole power-points thing from earlier?

don't know why people seem to have trouble with the concept of the goblinsverse being a real world with the same freedoms as our own rther then being a stright D&D game.


The sound effect is in Kin Green, so any AltKin we have or haven't seen would to me be the primary suspect, as all the sound effects we've seen from any of the Alts have been the same color as our primaries.

Evidance for my Tripple-kin-team theory is stacking up!:smallbiggrin:

LoneStarNorth
2013-05-12, 01:16 PM
I think it was the trio of alt-Kins from earlier. I seem to recall Thunt saying we'd see them again, and I could see them giving this wounded Kin they found the potion to spare her a bit of pain, seeing as their victory is now seemingly assured.

Traab
2013-05-12, 01:17 PM
Preeeety much yup. like the people trying to find in-game spells and abilities that psimax could have to remove the crawl from existance?
don't know why people seem to have trouble with the concept of the goblinsverse being a real world with the same freedoms as our own rther then being a stright D&D game.

Well the fact that they are constantly referring to feats, older versions of the D&D rules, and this is from the goblins themselves, tends to blur the issue. Admittedly, most of this happened early on. For example, the old goblins spent a lot of time griping about how things were different like here. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/11122005/) So when things like stats, feats, levels, spells, armor class, and in general most of the rules of D&D are being followed, we tend to assume that they are ALL being followed. Its not an unreasonable assumption.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-12, 01:46 PM
Well the fact that they are constantly referring to feats, older versions of the D&D rules, and this is from the goblins themselves, tends to blur the issue. Admittedly, most of this happened early on. For example, the old goblins spent a lot of time griping about how things were different like here. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/11122005/) So when things like stats, feats, levels, spells, armor class, and in general most of the rules of D&D are being followed, we tend to assume that they are ALL being followed. Its not an unreasonable assumption.

Yes but keep in mind that OOTS does the exact same thing, and we know from Belkar's mark-of-justice trip AND the origin of PC's intro that the OOTS world is not an actual D&D game, just a world where D&D laws apply, with physics, magic, and gaming all working together in one confused pile. Goblins works the exact same way.

picture yourself in this kind of world for a moment, your in the OOTS or the Goblins world, and your an adventurer, and you get in a fight. in a D&D game a fight is played out in rounds, with everyone taking turns playing out actions and politely standing still when other people's turns are up, like in Erfworld. but you wouldn't, because that's not what fights are, fights are chaotic and all over the place, everybody moves and swings at the same time as everybody else, it's exactly like if you got in a fight in our own world, exept you also know your own limits and abilities to top it off, and there are magic spells and stuff flying around you.

Sholos
2013-05-12, 02:31 PM
Yes but keep in mind that OOTS does the exact same thing, and we know from Belkar's mark-of-justice trip AND the origin of PC's intro that the OOTS world is not an actual D&D game, just a world where D&D laws apply, with physics, magic, and gaming all working together in one confused pile. Goblins works the exact same way.
The confusion is exacerbated, I think, by the fact that Minmax and Forgath both refer to having players, which seems to indicate that it is a game. Unless Minmax and Forgath are people whose actions are being mostly controlled by these "players", which brings up a whole new dark side to the story.


picture yourself in this kind of world for a moment, your in the OOTS or the Goblins world, and your an adventurer, and you get in a fight. in a D&D game a fight is played out in rounds, with everyone taking turns playing out actions and politely standing still when other people's turns are up, like in Erfworld. but you wouldn't, because that's not what fights are, fights are chaotic and all over the place, everybody moves and swings at the same time as everybody else, it's exactly like if you got in a fight in our own world, exept you also know your own limits and abilities to top it off, and there are magic spells and stuff flying around you.

Actually, we have seen some examples (in OOTS at least) of "turns" happening, if I recall correctly.

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-12, 02:52 PM
pretty sure Thunt said at some point that Minmax and forgath (and the Drow) are the living, breathing, free-willed versions of an "our" world D&D game, i'm not sure how the whole players thing works out, maybe they are avatars of players on the D&D game wich sort of matches the goblins verse, or maybe they simply beleive they have players when realy they do not.


the important thing to note is that minmax, forgath, and the drow "have players" however that may work, but everything and everybody else does not, and as such does not bide by the rules of any spesific D&D game.

Neoriceisgood
2013-05-12, 02:54 PM
I imagine a player is something akin to what we consider a "soul".

Intangible, ill-defined and, in Forgath's case, female.

BannedInSchool
2013-05-12, 03:00 PM
The confusion is exacerbated, I think, by the fact that Minmax and Forgath both refer to having players, which seems to indicate that it is a game.
And Tuck arguing with Baka over him being a Japanese Samurai when there's no Japan, as well as the Three Stooges remembering their "past lives" as Drow and summoning Geodude. The most straight-forward explanation for them is that they are PCs in a game with players. That's not to say that the comic is just a chronicle of a game, but that there is a game that intersects with the world in the comic even if it's not defining that world.

Traab
2013-05-12, 03:00 PM
The confusion is exacerbated, I think, by the fact that Minmax and Forgath both refer to having players, which seems to indicate that it is a game. Unless Minmax and Forgath are people whose actions are being mostly controlled by these "players", which brings up a whole new dark side to the story.



Actually, we have seen some examples (in OOTS at least) of "turns" happening, if I recall correctly.

Yep. We also see a number of scenes in both oots and goblins where the characters realized they messed up on damage calculations and suddenly are dead or are actually perfectly fine or whatever. Hell, the very first oots comic specifically SAYS they got upgraded to 3.5 I think it was.

The biggest stumbling block to this, "Its a real world, not a D&D campaign" school of thought is the very existence of minmax and forgath. They are people playing characters. If this isnt some campaign map of a world, then how the hell did they get there? In OOTS there are no player controlled characters. Its ALL a world that runs on D&D rules. In Goblins at best this is a campaign map being run by a dm that wants to keep track of a few specific groups of npcs so he can tie them into the story with minmax and crew later.

That is something that actually happens in campaigns sometimes. The DM keeps track of some specific groups or people while they are "off screen" so to speak, because they still have a part to play in the players campaign. Its just a more detailed way to show us why those 1st level goblins are back and this time they have class levels. Just like in the games you play where the same bad guys escape and come back later, always being strong enough to put up a fight. Only in this case, when minmax's player goes, "HEY!!! Why the hell are these first level goblins now level 4 with magic gear, class skills and all that other stuff?" the dm can just pull out a handwritten novel and say, "Here, this is how they got here, and why they have this stuff."

Draconi Redfir
2013-05-12, 03:07 PM
I imagine a player is something akin to what we consider a "soul".

Intangible, ill-defined and, in Forgath's case, female.

I like this idea the best.

Ravens_cry
2013-05-12, 03:26 PM
Psimax made Kin cry.:smallfurious:

Marnath
2013-05-12, 03:36 PM
Psimax made Kin cry.:smallfurious:

There's also the small matter of him exploding her intestines. >.>

TheSummoner
2013-05-12, 03:39 PM
Yeah... Of all the things Psimax has done, even if we limit it to things he has done to Kin specifically... Making Kin cry is the least of it.

Neoriceisgood
2013-05-12, 03:42 PM
Didn't he make her cry when he touched her chest?

Ravens_cry
2013-05-12, 03:42 PM
There's also the small matter of him exploding her intestines. >.>
True. What I am trying to say, is I want Psimax dead.

The Linker
2013-05-12, 03:50 PM
Painfully vaporizing her flesh into goo was one thing, but making her cry? IT'S ON.


On the 'how does the world make sense' argument; my personal answer is that 'it doesn't'. Like OotS, the comic started as one thing and turned into another, and they're not perfectly consistent and fluid. I'm okay with just glazing over it, disbelief suspended, to enjoy the good stuff.

Winterwind
2013-05-12, 04:03 PM
in a D&D game a fight is played out in rounds, with everyone taking turns playing out actions and politely standing still when other people's turns are up, Oh, you mean somewhat (http://www.goblinscomic.com/07292005/) like this (http://www.goblinscomic.com/07302005/)? :smalltongue:

(For the record, yes, I realize this is from a different age of Goblins, and the style has changed since. Mostly just kidding.)


Regarding the whole players-thing, I think there are none, except when they are needed to set up jokes about them. If a joke about a player has to be made, then, sure, Forgath and Minmax are just D&D characters controlled by players playing a D&D game. The entire rest of the time, Forgath and Minmax are people in a living, breathing world, and the entire concept of players fades into oblivion (no pun intended). Same for just about all other D&D rules and references, for that matter.


As for the "stop thinking about how to explain this in D&D rules"-thing, I'm amazed, simply amazed at how many Stop-Having-Fun-Guys-people there are in this thread. Why would you ever even think of denying some people the fun exercise of trying to figure out how what they see in the comic could be replicated by D&D rules, in an arrogant tone of indignant righteousness no less? :smallconfused:

This said, I will concur that it is no more than a fun exercise, but exceedingly unlikely to actually be able to predict anything about the comic, because the comic does not follow D&D rules that closely, and Thunt always takes narrative freedom over exact rules conformity (as both an author and a DM well should).

CowardlyPaladin
2013-05-12, 10:19 PM
Those points don't work at all as Kin is clearly looking at someone (not mug) in a surprised manner. So that leaves out psionic abilities/Psion class too, because then it wouldn't be a surprise.



Oh....fair point

t209
2013-05-12, 10:24 PM
Come on
Kin. Do something with the cup. Either sacrifice herself and spill poison on him (It said non-Acid and non-Magical). or use the arrow with the cup.

Aniu
2013-05-12, 10:28 PM
Coming in out of the blue to offer my prediction, perhaps somewhat unlikely, but it's offered none the less:

It's Minmax. Psymax has realized that it's likely his last unnaccounted variable comes from him. He's just found him, and now he decides to bring Minmax to the room, and deal with him. Minmax of course, first and foremost sets the healing potion by Kin, before turning to Psymax.

Jimor
2013-05-12, 10:43 PM
Coming in out of the blue to offer my prediction, perhaps somewhat unlikely, but it's offered none the less:

It's Minmax. Psymax has realized that it's likely his last unnaccounted variable comes from him. He's just found him, and now he decides to bring Minmax to the room, and deal with him. Minmax of course, first and foremost sets the healing potion by Kin, before turning to Psymax.

Except Psimax has already teleported to his Secret Lair, so why would he bring MinMax to where Kin is as opposed to where he is?

Aniu
2013-05-12, 11:50 PM
Perhaps I'm reading it wrong... But it seemed that his lair and the room with Kin were adjacent, and he'd opened a hole (literal, not oblivion) between them. Either way though, your point stands. As I said, random speculation! :smallbiggrin:

Twig
2013-05-13, 03:23 AM
I'm amazed, simply amazed at how many Stop-Having-Fun-Guys-people there are in this thread.

You mean fun like some dimwit arguing furiously with Giant himself how he got his comic wrong for not making OotS know that Redcloak has regenerate because they have seen him using high level cleric spells. And then Giant gave even a perfect reason rulewise: they just didn't have enough ranks in Knowledge about religion, that person still kept going on how about Giant has failed understanding D&D.

Bleh, thatkind of pedantry and grognardism is seriously unfun for me. Stop looking at numbers and start seeing what amazing stories emerge from such systems through human experience. At that goes for pc-games, roleplaying and boardgames. Being fixates to rules is the death of creativity.

Winterwind
2013-05-13, 04:45 AM
You mean fun like some dimwit arguing furiously with Giant himself how he got his comic wrong for not making OotS know that Redcloak has regenerate because they have seen him using high level cleric spells. And then Giant gave even a perfect reason rulewise: they just didn't have enough ranks in Knowledge about religion, that person still kept going on how about Giant has failed understanding D&D.Right, because whining about narrative freedom and harmlessly wondering if something can be explained with D&D rules without any expectation of the author actually adhering to them is totally the same thi- oh, wait, no, those are completely unrelated and why would you even bring that up?


Bleh, thatkind of pedantry and grognardism is seriously unfun for me. Stop looking at numbers and start seeing what amazing stories emerge from such systems through human experience. At that goes for pc-games, roleplaying and boardgames. Being fixates to rules is the death of creativity.Right, because it's totally impossible to think about the rules and the numbers while simultaneously fully appreciating the story - oh, wait, no, those two things are completely unrelated and in no way mutually exclusive!

Look, I understand you've had some bad experience with some no-fun pedants and grognards, and I'm all with you there, but you're overgeneralizing and blaming innocent people who have absolutely nothing to do nor in common with those pedants. I don't even try to analyze what is happening in Goblins in terms of D&D rules myself (because, as I wrote above, that approach is much too unlikely to yield useful results here, as Thunt always puts narrative freedom above rule adherence, as - as I also wrote - well he should), and I still find your overgeneralizations and your attempts to forbid other posters here to engage in discussion threads that have nothing at all to do with those whiners you complain about thoroughly offensive.

How does a discussion on how many power points Psimax might have left hurt you? Worst (and, in my humble opinion, by far most likely) scenario, Thunt hasn't bothered with thinking about power points and what powers Psimax is actually using at all, and it will prove ultimately inconsequential, but harmless; best scenario, Thunt did actually think about it, and a clever reader might glean additional information about Psimax and what he could and couldn't do at this point - in that case, it's kind of a riddle set up by Thunt for anyone with sufficient D&D knowledge to solve it, and to forbid people to engage in a riddle deliberately set up by the author would be the pinnacle of folly. Now, if people started to actually complain like, no, Thunt cannot do that, the rules don't allow it, then sure, I'd be totally on your side - but that's something entirely, entirely different. Or is it just that you are not interested in discussions of D&D rules? Well, I could understand how such a discussion might annoy you, then, but nobody owns threads on GitP (except the Giant himself), and people are allowed to discuss whatever they wish nonetheless. Fortunately.

Aquatosic
2013-05-13, 04:31 PM
what's the name of the creepy, unstoppable, genocidal dwarf paladin again?

By the way, I think that the person coming out of the green glow that we see in the last comic wee saw the GAP in is either Minmax, Forgath or Kin, using the Jade Teapot

The Linker
2013-05-13, 04:41 PM
what's the name of the creepy, unstoppable, genocidal dwarf paladin again?

That'd be Kore.


By the way, I think that the person coming out of the green glow that we see in the last comic wee saw the GAP in is either Minmax, Forgath or Kin, using the Jade Teapot

Yes. The vast majority opinion is that it's Minmax, since he's the only one that ever called Complains of Names "Names".

Any dissenting opinions usually boil down to "That's just too obvious. I bet it's a trick." :smalltongue: