How to steal from the party and not have them kill you for it.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Greetings fellow thieves, scoundrels, rogues and ninjas. You all have approached this thread to learn how to steal from the party and not have them hate you for it. It will be 20 gold...

Kidding kidding.

Now you are wondering, "Man, I risk my neck for these guys finding dangerous traps and opening chests and I have to split my money with the "muscle"? Why shouldn't I take extra from the chest of loot and not tell them?"

Well, you should! But in a specific way. What follow's is a guide to making sure at the end of the day your party will not kill you!

1st rule.
Be economical! Why of course you should take more, but not to much, you don't want to ruin your investment. If these working relationship with these others works out, then you don't want them to leave you high and dry! Why cultivate their loyalty, make sure you are worthwhile to them. They are making you rich after all! :smallbiggrin:

2nd rule
Discipline! Yes, there is 10000 gold pieces in that chest, which will even split for a four man group into 2500 each. But if someone were to reduce it to 9555 before the party found out, none would be the wiser. :smallamused: Then you can seem generous when you offer to take the lesser cut.
(A good rule of thumb, only take so much that won't be missed, only enough to get some consumables and wands, or that final upgrade.) Bonus points if its healing potions and you share your "Last One" with the wizard, and the Paladin notices!

3rd Rule
Invest! Now, obviously you want the party to like you. And that Paladin can get annoying if he were to become displeased, and the Barbarian is a dangerous fellow. Here are some ways to make sure they don't kill you for "Procuring extra loot" First, the extra gold you got from the chest earlier, make sure you buy the big lugs a couple of rounds of beer, and the rooms to sleep in. Then donate 10% to the church. That will appease the Paladin and make sure that you have good favor with the guys upstairs!:smallwink:

4th Rule
Invest Moar! Now, you just found a wand of silence, and a swanky uber belt. Now I know you want to take both, but hear me out. Yes the belt looks good on you, but it matches the paladin's eyes. Say to him "Hey, I just found this rinky dinky belt, it matches your eyes. You should wear it."
This will do three things for you when the people you inadvertently pissed off in the past come hunting you, Paladin buddy will...

A) Give a compelling testimony about how generous you have been and turned a new leaf. And given money to the church!
B) Be better equipped to save your rear when the Barbarian charges the oppressors for oppressing his "Best Drinking Buddy"!
C) And he will look good doing it!:smallcool:

If you follow these simple guidelines, you too can steal from the party without them hating you forever!

[AttilaTheGeek]

Great guide. One thing, though- A chest with 9,995 gold in it looks suspicious. Steal until there's a nice, round number left. Unless your GM gives out random amounts of gold often, if the rest of the party comes across a chest with 499 gp or something like that, they'll know something's up.

[GoatBoy]

Hence, click on the "generate 'more random' numbers of coins" box on your random treasure generator. When was the last time you counted up the change in your coin jar and had it add up to exactly 20.00, on the dot?

And don't be greedy. Stealing 2 gold pieces out of 100 isn't going to set the party after your neck, even if you get caught, and you still get to experience the thrill of knowing that even the ones closest to you aren't entirely onto you. You don't have to steal everything, it's enough to know that you could if you really wanted to.

Also, stop using the "I'm stealing because it's what my CHARACTER would do!" excuse. Every group has had to play out the "what do we do with the thief?" scene. It's boring, and it doesn't add anything to the game.

[tyckspoon]

Great guide. One thing, though- A chest with 9,995 gold in it looks suspicious. Steal until there's a nice, round number left. Unless your GM gives out random amounts of gold often, if the rest of the party comes across a chest with 499 gp or something like that, they'll know something's up.

That can be generalized to 'don't leave suspicious numbers', I think- if your GM usually randomizes cash values, then rounding off everything looks weird, and if he usually just writes down a nice round-looking number then leaving odd amounts looks weird. (Of course, if you're getting to enough of the treasures far enough ahead of the party to skim off your extra share, then the rest of the party might not actually know how the GM usually does it, as they only see what you've shown them.)

I'd add: Carry change. Your party may feel like something is missing if you take 100 GP out of the chest of 1000. But they probably won't notice a shortfall if you substitute 100 SP for those 100 GP, or maybe throw in a handful of less-valuable gems - the chest is still full, and un-doctored treasures often contain a mix of different values of coinage and items anyway.

[Squark]

So, the basic idea here, if I'm understanding you correctly, is to only steal amounts no one is going to miss, and to make sure to essentially "pay it back" in other ways? From an out of character perspective, I mean.

[navar100]

Once you steal from the party, I hate you forever. I don't give a damn if it's only out of character knowledge. You are out of character ruining my fun. I will gladly kill your character, have my paladin fall if he must, and make a new character should it get that serious. Worse comes to worse one of us leaves the gaming group, and I'll be happy even if it's me. It has happened a few times already. The majority of the times the thief is the one who was showed the door or rage quitted.

[Deaxsa]

Great guide. One thing, though- A chest with 9,995 gold in it looks suspicious. Steal until there's a nice, round number left. Unless your GM gives out random amounts of gold often, if the rest of the party comes across a chest with 499 gp or something like that, they'll know something's up.

As a dm, i am now going to do this to sow distrust among my players

[FleshrakerAbuse]

navar100, that seems a bit harsh... if the thief uses the money to the benefit of the party anyways, then I'm not seeing a problem. Just seeing much annoyance. And you killing the character is a LOT worst than him stealing a bit.

However, I do think the thief should tell the party before in a complete mental exercise type of situation how they feel about having the thief steal something for fun. If they don't like it, try to convince them or stop before stealing.

If they have no little problems about it, then try to steal as little as possible. If that party member's gold is going to help you anyways (eternal wands, belts of healing, cloaks of charisma on the pally for his heals) then there's no point. Better to steal from NPCs.

[JusticeZero]

Don't steal from the party. It's not that it's mean, it's that, let's face it, THESE PEOPLE ARE YOUR MEAL TICKET!

[Sith_Happens]

navar100, that seems a bit harsh... if the thief uses the money to the benefit of the party anyways, then I'm not seeing a problem. Just seeing much annoyance. And you killing the character is a LOT worst than him stealing a bit.

He does bring up a good point though, which is that pretty much everything in the OP is kaput if your group isn't the frequent note-passing type. Of course, seeing as this is at least in some sense a joke thread anyways...

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Yeah. But you shouldn't explain the joke!

Well, that besides, stealing from enemies would be preferable. (AKA, enemies you won't be looting from already in the short-term). Or neutral, non-story related civilians. Just hope the DM won't spring the "retired-high-level character" on you.

[Spuddles]

Alternative theft approach:

Skim from the top, honestly.

Currently doing that in game right now. If I'm keeping track of every damn copper, pricing & moving goods, you better damn believe I'm getting fees for services rendered.

It's all right there in the ledgers ;)

[Azoth]

Gotta say as the usual "thief" type player regardless of exact build, sometimes groups are seriously just too paranoid of the thief. Not to say I have never had a character steal from the group, but more often than I have stolen I have been accused of it.

Players tend to think that if most of the party is broke, but the "thief" has cash to burn then he stole it. Not even that he stole from a NPC, but that he must have taken their money to have any left.

You would be surprised at the number of times my characters have been staring at the business end of a party member's weapon under accusation of theft. Again because of the character's skill set and abilities coupled with having extra cash.

Normally the cash is the byproduct of not being able to find/afford the gear he was looking for in the last town, while everyone else spent their last coppers on upgrades.

[Slipperychicken]

5th Rule
Make sure your group will tolerate it!! Too often, players will pull these shenanigans and ruin their trust and OOC relationships with people at the table. It's not worth spoiling real-life friendships over a few in-game gold. So make double-sure you the A-Okay, then go steal and lie like your favorite politician.

[navar100]

navar100, that seems a bit harsh... if the thief uses the money to the benefit of the party anyways, then I'm not seeing a problem. Just seeing much annoyance. And you killing the character is a LOT worst than him stealing a bit.

However, I do think the thief should tell the party before in a complete mental exercise type of situation how they feel about having the thief steal something for fun. If they don't like it, try to convince them or stop before stealing.

If they have no little problems about it, then try to steal as little as possible. If that party member's gold is going to help you anyways (eternal wands, belts of healing, cloaks of charisma on the pally for his heals) then there's no point. Better to steal from NPCs.

"I'm only roleplaying." "I'm just playing my character". "It's what my character would do."

[BoutsofInsanity]

Sounds like someone was victim to a thief not following my guide! Next time you see him, point him in my direction. I will make sure to take him under my tutelage and train him to be a master investor!

See also my "Humans don't just jump to execution in response to slights!" and my "My that escalated Quickly guide!" Or my personal favorite "Friendship ruined, because pvp happened!" <-- Now with 20% more bluff!

Note, technically the thief never steals from the party, that wouldn't be wise on his investment. He may however enact a "Dangerous Occupation Tax" (DOT) for having to open chests and disarm dangerous traps so Grimtooth doesn't get to have a free meal!

[Slipperychicken]

navar100, that seems a bit harsh... if the thief uses the money to the benefit of the party anyways, then I'm not seeing a problem. Just seeing much annoyance. And you killing the character is a LOT worst than him stealing a bit.


Make no mistake, stealing is PvP. Doesn't matter what stupid backstory excuse he has. If someone crosses that line... the cat's out of the bag. He should be prepared to face his fellow PCs' wrath, which may well include torture and death.


EDIT: As for the overreaction bit, I think it's reasonable. You made a deal: even split. One for all and all for one. You just risked your life to save his arse not two hours ago, you took arrows to the knees, you took swords to the gut, you've been burned, bashed, cursed, slashed, clawed and gnawed half to death, all because you're a team, dammit!... and this backstabbing bastard has the nerve to filch your gold, after all you went through!

It takes incredible restraint not to kill the guy after that kind of betrayal.

[TaiLiu]

"I'm only roleplaying." "I'm just playing my character". "It's what my character would do."
Is that how you justify your murderous acts? :smalltongue:

[SimonMoon6]

Here's how I was successful as a person-stealing-treasure-from-the-group:

Be the Group's Treasurer. Everytime I've ever played D&D, the group is given hordes of various treasures, much of which needs to be sold. Nobody wants to do the math... but YOU do. Volunteer to be the one who keeps track of all that stuff that nobody else is interested in.

Then, without their knowledge, take your 10% cut off the top before dividing the treasure into equal piles.

Also, in the groups I've played with, magic items tend to be given to (a) the person who can use them or (b) a person who really wants it. If nobody fits into those categories, the item gets sold. But if you have a ton of items to sell, nobody will notice if one of the items just happens to become your property. I got a very nice ring of fire resistance this way. Nobody was excited enough by it to claim it, so I secretly claimed it and nobody cared.

Also, Don't Actually Steal From an Individual. If they find out, they will never let you live. In an "evil" campaign, it became clear that our rogue had stolen 1 gold piece from me. So, since for a certain prestige class, I needed to sacrifice a bunch of people to the dark powers, this particular rogue wasn't long for the world. And it was a good thing too, because he'd stolen far more than 1 gp (but he'd made it look like only 1 gp was missing).

[Spuddles]

Make no mistake, stealing is PvP. Doesn't matter what stupid backstory excuse he has. If someone crosses that line... the cat's out of the bag. He should be prepared to face his fellow PCs' wrath, which may well include torture and death.


EDIT: As for the overreaction bit, I think it's reasonable. You made a deal: even split. One for all and all for one. You just risked your life to save his arse not two hours ago, you took arrows to the knees, you took swords to the gut, you've been burned, bashed, cursed, slashed, clawed and gnawed half to death, all because you're a team, dammit!... and this backstabbing bastard has the nerve to filch your gold, after all you went through!

It takes incredible restraint (or stupidity) not to kill the guy after that kind of betrayal.

Do you only play sociopaths or what?

[inuyasha]

this is exactly the guide i needed, thank you! :)

[Gnome Alone]

I'd be a lot more appalled by PCs committing freaking torture than by one trying to take more than their fair share.

Can't think of many better acid tests for not metagaming than how people react to the thief hoarding loot he found while alone.

[Slipperychicken]

Do you only play sociopaths or what?

I play the kind of guy who kills for a living in a world where nothing is as it seems, and everything is out to get you.

I play an adventurer.

What do you play?

[navar100]

Sounds like someone was victim to a thief not following my guide! Next time you see him, point him in my direction. I will make sure to take him under my tutelage and train him to be a master investor!

See also my "Humans don't just jump to execution in response to slights!" and my "My that escalated Quickly guide!" Or my personal favorite "Friendship ruined, because pvp happened!" <-- Now with 20% more bluff!

Note, technically the thief never steals from the party, that wouldn't be wise on his investment. He may however enact a "Dangerous Occupation Tax" (DOT) for having to open chests and disarm dangerous traps so Grimtooth doesn't get to have a free meal!

The Fighter deserves a DOT for putting his life on the line taking the brunt of attacks and flanking with the Rogue so he can sneak attack.

The Wizard deserves a DOT for the cost of spell components he uses to save the Rogue from danger.

The Cleric deserves a DOT for the healing he provides to keep the Rogue alive, and woe to the cost if the Rogue needs to be resurrected.

What you are saying is pure bull****.

[TaiLiu]

The Fighter deserves a DOT...

The Wizard deserves a DOT...

The Cleric deserves a DOT...
Agreed. Everybody deserves a DOT! :smallbiggrin:

[Kane0]

Amongst all of my party my character is the one that trusts the rogue the most... thats not a good sign for my cash flow is it?

Nice guide, though I don't know what some of you guys are on about with the killing a teammate that took 10% more than you, especially if he did it right and you didn't notice.

[Gavinfoxx]

Throw more dots! More dots, more dots, MORE DOTS! ... Come on, more dots! okay, stop dots!

[Azoth]

I laugh at how much people want to kill the rogue who pilfers a bit extra. At least in my experience, that cash is often used on expendables that are a bit of the situational use. So yeah, he pilfered an extra couple hundred gold...and used it to buy a feather token: tree that he then used to block off a hallway so everyone can get out of dodge.

Now yes he stole, but would anyone else have bought that item that saved everyone's bacon?

[Averis Vol]

I've never stolen the paladins shield and sold it for scrap. I've never slipped the wizards pearl of power off his neck and traded it for a new ring of protection. But I have, after countlessly being the first into the room and last out, checking floors while my party stood thirty feet back and, on rare occasion, baited a dragon out of its layer because I was the only one with a reflex save worth a damn, skimmed the change off the top of a 12,367gp hoard in addition to my 3,000. I've pocketed items I could use so I wouldn't have to fuss with other characters over them and, yes, when they finally found me out I told them that they can face check the dragon cave next time.

The thief doesn't just look for traps, or search the corpses, or jsut do the slum work like finding out information; he is also in the thick of things playing flank buddy for the fighter or barbarian. He throws himself into the fray alongside the front liners, so honestly, I don't see anything wrong with the person considered most expendable to take a slightly larger portion, as long as it isn't completely unreasonable; I mean, worst comes to worst you just take the stuff he filched back when he rolls a 1 on the save against the dragon breath, or he finally misses a trap and takes a face full of slay living.

EDIT:
The Fighter deserves a DOT for putting his life on the line taking the brunt of attacks and flanking with the Rogue so he can sneak attack.

The Wizard deserves a DOT for the cost of spell components he uses to save the Rogue from danger.

The Cleric deserves a DOT for the healing he provides to keep the Rogue alive, and woe to the cost if the Rogue needs to be resurrected.

What you are saying is pure bull****.

okay I think I see the problem. You must play with the most incompetent rogue possible for all of these to be a problem. The rogue puts itself in just as much danger as the fighter when combat comes, were he truly not worthy of saving, the fighter wouldn't try to force the enemies back on him to protect the rogue. If he never succeeded on a search check and made you walk through a mine field, the rest of the group would have gotten fed up, bound him, and thrown him down the hallways before drawing him back to see if the traps went off and when he finally died the party would take his stuff and find a new trap monkey to exploit.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Bro I am posting from the rogues perspective! Obviously everyone but the bard (cause playing music isn't hard) puts their life on the line. But you gotta role play for this thread about role playing to make sense! I am trying to give a guide about how to "steal from the party" (which you are not stealing from an individual, nor are you taking gear that obviously belongs to someone, say a belt of giants strength) without actually causing issues.

Obviously you have had games ruined and friendships ruined because of a rogue not understanding the above concept. I am also guessing you enter into games as the Barbarian who has killed many men and had his entire village destroyed and is out for vengeance. Yes, in a super serious game, where your group is dark, dangerous, and super angry this does not work.

But in a "normal" D&D game, where the Paladin is a generally nice guy, the Barbarian wants to fight, drink, and sleep around, and the wizard wears a monocle, this actually works.

You aren't taking items that belong to anyone, you only skim enough from the top to get a few extra goodies you can use later, and it makes the rogue feel cool when he can say to the barbarian right before a fight
"Bro, this belt I just found matches your eyes, you should wear it".
"I don't want to wear a stupid belt"!
"No, you really do, I bought (Removed it from the chest of loot without telling anyone) it for you to increase your strength! Now go and crush that fool who is accusing me of stealing!"

^What has now happened, is the Barbarian got his loot, the rogue got to feel cool and sneaky, and all is well. It is up to you to decide whether or not it fits the campaign to have a party like this. Most games run this way, in terms of style, lighthearted moments in between death and glory. Sometimes though, this is not the case and the game is grimdark. In that instance, I would put on hold the shenanigans, and say don't play a rogue. Play a cloistered cleric with the trickery domain that can stealth and disarm traps.

Now Back in character!
My friend relax, have a seat, watch this clip!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CaBdV8o4GU

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Obviously you have had games ruined and friendships ruined because of a rogue not understanding the above concept. I am also guessing you enter into games as the Barbarian who has killed many men and had his entire village destroyed and is out for vengeance. Yes, in a super serious game, where your group is dark, dangerous, and super angry this does not work.

But in a "normal" D&D game, where the Paladin is a generally nice guy, the Barbarian wants to fight, drink, and sleep around, and the wizard wears a monocle, this actually works.

Yes, that's what I meant, navar100. If your characters previously have shown distaste and hatred towards stealing, then one shouldn't steal.

Still, one should probably ask his friends prior to campaign if he can do harmless things like stealing change. If the rest of the party doesn't agree, don't.

[Spuddles]

I play the kind of guy who kills for a living in a world where nothing is as it seems, and everything is out to get you.

I play an adventurer.

What do you play?

Don't you ever get tired of playing the same thing?

[CIDE]

Agreed. Everybody deserves a DOT! :smallbiggrin:

What's the Monk deserve a DOT for?

[FleshrakerAbuse]

What is DOT?

Well, a well optimized Monk can become an effective mobile stunner with pumping of wis at low levels, or high unarmed attack damage with a good amount of skills left over.

I get the really that was rhetorical.

[Slipperychicken]

What's the Monk deserve a DOT for?

Playing a Monk in a D&D campaign :smallbiggrin:

[Kane0]

But in a "normal" D&D game, where the Paladin is a generally nice guy, the Barbarian wants to fight, drink, and sleep around, and the wizard wears a monocle, this actually works.


I now feel the overwhelming urge to create a monocle and gift it to our party wizard...

[Spuddles]

I've got a DoT for ya....

casts Melf's Acid Arrow

[Gnome Alone]

Playing a Monk in a D&D campaign :smallbiggrin:

Checkmate.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

I've got a DoT for ya....

casts Melf's Acid Arrow
*Casts wings of cover*

[Gnome Alone]

What is DOT?


"Dangerous Occupation Tax," a term coined (?...or, at least referenced) earlier in the thread. Also "Damage Over Time" in WoW and such, hence cascade of puns and references to same.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Well, then, the monk, hexblade, truenamer, and samurai should get the highest dangerous occupation tax, because of their general extreme amount of capability to influence the fate of the adventuring party, mainly in combat.

[Slipperychicken]

I now feel the overwhelming urge to create a monocle and gift it to our party wizard...

Use your humorous feelings... let the lulz flow through you...

[Fyermind]

If you steal from the party, use the stolen funds plus the share you would have stolen from yourself on items that explicitly benefit everyone. Think of it as being the caretaker of the party. They would be too obsessed with their shiny new swords and nightsticks and metamagic rods to keep track of important things like not letting anyone die.

[TaiLiu]

If you steal from the party, use the stolen funds plus the share you would have stolen from yourself on items that explicitly benefit everyone.
Hm. Any ideas?

[Slipperychicken]

If you steal from the party, use the stolen funds plus the share you would have stolen from yourself on items that explicitly benefit everyone. Think of it as being the caretaker of the party. They would be too obsessed with their shiny new swords and nightsticks and metamagic rods to keep track of important things like not letting anyone die.

Can't you just ask them if they want to contribute for these things? I know my characters usually go for collective-benefit items, especially if everyone else chips in too.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyermind View Post
If you steal from the party, use the stolen funds plus the share you would have stolen from yourself on items that explicitly benefit everyone.
Hm. Any ideas?

Well, the original poster had mentioned this from the beginning. Go buy something that would help the other party member; gift it. As the good aligned beguiler's philosophy, sometimes a well placed lie is better than the harsh truth. After all, they like you, and they benefit too. Win-Win. The best items to buy are those that help the whole party; getting an eternal wand of identify, charm person, or shock and awe can help your party extremely. There's a gift for everyone. Pallies love a good cha item and some phylactery of faithfulness, clerics with their greater holy symbols, barbarians some belts of healing. And a (eternal) wand of mass vigor is awesome.

[oball]

I had a rogue/assassin loot 2500gp worth of platinum bars from a sinking merchant ship under the pretence of "searching for survivors". The rest of the party were IC not there but OOC saw it all happen. They were a little miffed that I was getting a leg up on them wealth-wise, but hey, I was the only one greedy brave enough to risk my life looking for treasure survivors so I figured I deserved it.

I then spent all the money on poison and used it to try to assassinate the wizard's NPC boyfriend.

[Sith_Happens]

I now feel the overwhelming urge to create a monocle and gift it to our party wizard...

An Artificer's Monocle is 1500 gp and greatly speeds up the identification of magic items. Which means you can starting thinking about which one is your "extra share" all the sooner.:smallbiggrin:


Can't you just ask them if they want to contribute for these things? I know my characters usually go for collective-benefit items, especially if everyone else chips in too.

You'd be surprised. The last time I tried this the entire party flipped a s*** at me for daring to tell them how to spend their gold.:smallsigh:

[Osiris]

I want to reply with the TOP of the thread, which seems confusing. Take 5 GP and the gold-loving rogue will get suspicious (well, a minion must've skimmed from the top[not me]) REAL phony. I suggest, if you want to make a profit, head into town for a drink on you, totaling 20 GP. While everybody's asleep, you sneak into the Town Treasury, or use a teleport scroll to get in, and loot the 500 GP! Tah-dah! :smallcool:

[HurinTheCursed]

It probably depends on the group but my rogues tend to spend time in prison for way less than stealing from the group.

If you want extra loot, you better follow your own quests IMO. If my group is still pretty new, I can give such a character a second chance, but if I take him again, I'll try to find another PC. If the guy that stole is already in the group for a while, enough so that there is confidence between characters, things get harder because it could have lasted for a while.
Would your character confide his life to someone who steals from the group ? Most of mine would care about such stuff and see some treason there.

Just to say, my group bought a 40 000 GP item together at level 10, I believe it makes us rather bonded money-wise. It's OK with our kender cause it's never lost nor volontary but a pixie PC tried once and was taught never to try again or we'd leave her behind.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Your guys' reasoning makes a lot of sense. After all, the money still goes to the party... Just hope that it goes to the team players. And maybe giving suggestions to people what to buy won't be too hard...

Originally Posted by Sith_Happens
You'd be surprised. The last time I tried this the entire party flipped a s*** at me for daring to tell them how to spend their gold.
Huh.

[Rahdjan]

I had a pretty good racket going of stealing from the party by having them give me stuff. When it came time to use healing potions, I was "Always on my last one" and so my generous team mates would pony up theirs for the good of the team. Then I use the money I didn't have to spend on healing potions (and I had plenty) on other more important things. It's really odd that no one ever questioned it.

[Analytica]

I just had a weird idea here, kind of.

What if, there was a Rogue class feature, that made it so that you got some % of extra worth of treasure, every time the party acquire some? Using it would require you to describe in nifty detail how you sneakily steal from the party in some way, and maybe roll your thievy skills against a scaling DC. The better you succeed, the more extra treasure you get. But the core thing is, from an OOC perspective, this extra wealth is effectively created de novo by your roll, much like with Profession rolls - the other players get no less because you get more. From an IC perspective, you are filching things off of them, charging extra to the quest giver under the table, and skimming dragon's hoards, but, like HP, it is an abstraction?

[Gwendol]

They do: sleight of hand is a class skill...

And no thief worth his salt would skip the opportunity to skim the loot. Heck; any party not counting on their thief skimming the loot aren't worth their salt either. Stealing from a party member however is just mean.

[Sylthia]

I'd avoid stealing from party loot. Sate your RP theft by stealing from NPCs.

[Krobar]

The only way I've seen that you can successfully steal from a party as a PC, and keep it up over the long term, is if YOU are the guy who keeps track of the party treasure sheet. Buying, selling, gems, coinage, magic items ... it's pretty easy to lower a number on one sheet and increase a number on another, and the party will never be the wiser. Someone might say "hey ... how much cash do we have on hand?" You just look at the party treasure sheet and tell them what's on there and as long as you didn't get excessively greedy they'll never question it.

[Analytica]

They do: sleight of hand is a class skill...

And no thief worth his salt would skip the opportunity to skim the loot. Heck; any party not counting on their thief skimming the loot aren't worth their salt either. Stealing from a party member however is just mean.

No, you miss my point. It would be a mechanic that would let you get wealth by stealing from party members, without those party members actually losing any wealth. Successfully pick the paladin's pocket, get 100GP and a signet ring, but no changes to what is on the paladin's character sheet or inventory list.

[Grim Portent]

No, you miss my point. It would be a mechanic that would let you get wealth by stealing from party members, without those party members actually losing any wealth. Successfully pick the paladin's pocket, get 100GP and a signet ring, but no changes to what is on the paladin's character sheet or inventory list.

But that amounts to spontaneous wealth generation. Loot arising from nothing.

[Gavinfoxx]

But that amounts to spontaneous wealth generation. Loot arising from nothing.

Which is already the case? Loot is a reward system in this game, after all.

[Sylthia]

But that amounts to spontaneous wealth generation. Loot arising from nothing.

Perhaps, but it's still better than actually stealing from the party. Technically, having my rogue sneak into the magic shop at night and steal some Boots of Springing and Striding creates wealth from nothing as well, since it wasn't planned treasure and my DM just rolled randomly to see what I nicked.

[Krobar]

No, you miss my point. It would be a mechanic that would let you get wealth by stealing from party members, without those party members actually losing any wealth. Successfully pick the paladin's pocket, get 100GP and a signet ring, but no changes to what is on the paladin's character sheet or inventory list.





Why don't you all just steal from each other and become instant billionaires then?

[Slipperychicken]

No, you miss my point. It would be a mechanic that would let you get wealth by stealing from party members, without those party members actually losing any wealth. Successfully pick the paladin's pocket, get 100GP and a signet ring, but no changes to what is on the paladin's character sheet or inventory list.

Paladin: "I get mega-krunked off booze and weed, laughing like an idiot all the while until it damages my Wisdom score is 0 and I am unable to act or perceive my surroundings."

Theif: "I repeatedly pick the Paladin's pockets until he wakes up, gaining roughly 120,000 gold and 1200 signet rings before he recovers. I leave the Paladin's share under his pillow, like the tooth fairy."

DM: :smallfurious:

[navar100]

okay I think I see the problem. You must play with the most incompetent rogue possible for all of these to be a problem. The rogue puts itself in just as much danger as the fighter when combat comes, were he truly not worthy of saving, the fighter wouldn't try to force the enemies back on him to protect the rogue. If he never succeeded on a search check and made you walk through a mine field, the rest of the group would have gotten fed up, bound him, and thrown him down the hallways before drawing him back to see if the traps went off and when he finally died the party would take his stuff and find a new trap monkey to exploit.

No, that's not the point at all. The point is everyone contributed to the party's success in their own way. No one character deserves more than the party just because of whatever class he is.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm with Navar100. D&D is a cooperative game, not a pvp game, where the main point of the game is to cooperatively go and delve places and survive by the skin of your teeth. Intentional PVP is not on by default, and stealing from the party runs counter to the expectations inherent in the game, and by the fact that you are roleplaying a cooperative venture, where people expect the other people playing next to them to not be ***** and not disrupt the game.

[Slipperychicken]

Perhaps, but it's still better than actually stealing from the party. Technically, having my rogue sneak into the magic shop at night and steal some Boots of Springing and Striding creates wealth from nothing as well, since it wasn't planned treasure and my DM just rolled randomly to see what I nicked.

No. In the game universe, those boots were in the shop previously, then your Rogue took them out of the shop, and if someone goes back and checks, those boots will no longer be in the shop.

In the pickpocketing example, say the Paladin has X=500 gold, and this is an established, known fact of the game. The whole party watched the Paladin count it up and the DM dictate, and it's 500, no more, no less. If the Rogue steals 100 gold from that quantity, that would reduce the quantity to X-100=400. However, with the houserule, the Rogue gains 100 gold but the Paladin doesn't lose 100 gold, therefore a net increase has occured, when it should have been a transfer. This is what we mean by spontaneous generation.


Another example:
If I reach into a bag containing three apples, remove one, look in the bag, and those same 3 apples are still the bag, while the one I removed is outside the bag, that's spontaneous generation. That shatters internal consistency and verisimilitude about as badly as item-duplication glitches in video games.

[Gavinfoxx]

Bro I am posting from the rogues perspective! Obviously everyone but the bard (cause playing music isn't hard) puts their life on the line.

Just quoting this earlier, because most people ignored it. You play very weird bards. When I play a Bard, I am in the thick of things, charging the enemy, shouting orders and inspirational words with Perform Oratory, attacking with my Echoblade longsword... why ever would you stay back??

[Gavinfoxx]

A friend of mine says this:

If you are playing a thief, you should be doing second story work in a city.

If you are playing a rogue, the absolute last thing you want to do is ripping off your highly dangerous comrades in a dungeon.

[Averis Vol]

With exception of the early levels, I've never played a game where the rogue skimming the change people didn't even want to deal with in the first place off the top was grounds for torturing the person and/or killing him. It seems to me like you guys are every bit as greedy as the "Thief". I'd just like to apologise because I know this sounds like a personal attack, but if you care that much about the occasional 124 gold and 14 silver......well.....

[navar100]

It's not about the amount stolen. It's about trust and respect. You ruin the metagame, so I take it metagame and do not apologize for it. Long ago I got fed up with such donkey cavity players. I refuse to just accept it any more.

[Vertharrad]

So if your friend took 1 dollar from your wallet everyday and you found out would you trust and/or associate with them anymore? In my groups the threat of bodily harm will be backed up with action, you just took from my livelihood. The same goes for adventuring companies, if someone keeps taking what should be an equal share what are they going to graduate to in the future?

Betrayal doesn't stop with chump change...your characters next betrayal could end up killing another character. Me and my groups are not murder hobos, but we have had to deal with flagrant thieves in the past - Never Again! Parker from Leverage is a thief and a hoarder, however AFAIK she doesn't steal from their take or her friends. If my character can't trust the party members to "watch his back" than he leaves...down that road lies ruin.

[Analytica]

Just to clarify: For myself, I think having wealth generation by stealing does, in fact, harm versimilitude.

However, I also would not mind a game with the greedy rogue skimming from found treasure etc., or mind aspects of playing out drama, hurt feelings, conflicts etc. if the rogue is found stealing from the party. This is because I often do not play to succeed, or at least not solely to succeed, but rather for interesting scenes and developments of character relationships.

Instead, my suggestion was intended for those groups where the other players (as opposed to characters) would actually mind if the rogue did these things. If the group dynamic means it would not be OK for the rogue to steal from the group like that, because everyone really need to have their equal share of the WBL, but someone still wants to play a greedy bastard like that ratty thief that used to hang out with Conan the Barbarian, then they could use a "PvP stealing generates wealth de novo" artificial construct as a way to be able to have those character actions and attributes, while still remaining within the requirements of the group dynamic.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Let's just have that rogue steal from random lawful stupid and other chaotic netural thieves that aren't part of the party. It helps not obstruct the plotline, doesn't under-cheese the villians, and also helps the party.

Or, ask the party how they feel about stealing. For example, if I played a thief-type rogue in a game with, say, navar100, then I'd already know that he doesn't want me stealing. Then, I would ask him if that extends to NPCS of no worth.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I don't know, you guys, I think I'm with the people who would just kill the dude. Think about what you'd do in real life:

"Dude, did you drink some of my milk? I think some is missing."
"Nope. You sure that's not how much was in the carton?"
"DIE THIEF."

Then I'd just straight up murder him. And I don't even like milk.

[Averis Vol]

So if your friend took 1 dollar from your wallet everyday and you found out would you trust and/or associate with them anymore? In my groups the threat of bodily harm will be backed up with action, you just took from my livelihood. The same goes for adventuring companies, if someone keeps taking what should be an equal share what are they going to graduate to in the future?

Betrayal doesn't stop with chump change...your characters next betrayal could end up killing another character. Me and my groups are not murder hobos, but we have had to deal with flagrant thieves in the past - Never Again! Parker from Leverage is a thief and a hoarder, however AFAIK she doesn't steal from their take or her friends. If my character can't trust the party members to "watch his back" than he leaves...down that road lies ruin.

Okay, woah, this is a game first of all, secondly, the last time my friend "Stole" from me, yea we don't talk anymore. That same person filched my ring of feather fall and we had good laugh when I noticed it was gone. I mean, yea he started a war, and when he went to sleep the next night I tied him to a tree (in game of course) and took it back...... seriously, its a game with friends. It's really not healthy to get this worked up over it, just enjoy the shenanigans.

[Gavinfoxx]

Consider, you are in a war against hostile enemies. How would you feel if a 'friend' stole your M-16? Your binoculars? Your ammo? Your radio? The things you need to do your job?

You don't betray your comrades. They're the ones that are going to need to be saving your life!

[Spuddles]

Consider, you are in a war against hostile enemies. How would you feel if a 'friend' stole your M-16? Your binoculars? Your ammo? Your radio? The things you need to do your job?

You don't betray your comrades. They're the ones that are going to need to be saving your life!

It's nothing like that at all. I mean, you want to paint it like that, but instead ya'll sound like run-of-the-mill sociopaths from your typical gangster movie, executing someone over a couple keys cause hey, let that be a lesson to ya.

That's pretty much auto-fall territory for any paladin and probably revocation of most good clerics' powers.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Well, stealing from your allies important stuff is not very extremely undesirable.

[Averis Vol]

Consider, you are in a war against hostile enemies. How would you feel if a 'friend' stole your M-16? Your binoculars? Your ammo? Your radio? The things you need to do your job?

You don't betray your comrades. They're the ones that are going to need to be saving your life!

but we aren't talking about this. We are talking about the spoils in the aftermath, and the guy who led you safely through a field of landmines taking an extra looted knick knack.

[olentu]

Hmm generally my groups don't go so far as to try to kill the thief, they just try to cut off his hands as is appropriate to his crime. Unfortunately the lack of a called shot system means they guy usually dies from wrist strikes before his hands actually fall off.

[Slipperychicken]

I don't know, you guys, I think I'm with the people who would just kill the dude. Think about what you'd do in real life:

"Dude, did you drink some of my milk raid my bank account after I risked my life for you? I think some is missing."
"Nope. You sure that's not how much was in the carton bank?"
"DIE THIEF."


FTFY.

It's the kind of reaction you could reasonably expect from a guy raised by wolves whose job it is to get angry and kill people.

[Vertharrad]

It's nothing like that at all. I mean, you want to paint it like that, but instead ya'll sound like run-of-the-mill sociopaths from your typical gangster movie, executing someone over a couple keys cause hey, let that be a lesson to ya.

That's pretty much auto-fall territory for any paladin and probably revocation of most good clerics' powers.

Actually yes it is like that, really. Come steal from me and have me find out, at the very least I will hate you, at the most leave the state for your life. Have you considered why the Arabic punishment for thievery is so harsh? It's wrong to take what isn't yours. Example current day US Army you turn to me during a fight and shoot me, I'll kill you even if I have to wait a few minutes. This is like stealing from your own party members and don't try to pull the "well it wasn't distributed yet" BS, you still took out of our pockets. In a team game you just stole from your team. No one likes to be stole from. Paladins might fall(which is why I don't play paladins anymore) if they just kill you but good clerics won't just loose their powers. I'm sure even healing centric gods will let they're clerics skate by when they realize why.

[Pally din]

1, don't get caught.
2, don't look like you have more wealth than they do.
3, have an alternative explanation always ready.
4, maybe play it for humor only, and then give things back when caught.

It seems some here would have killed Tasslehoff Burfoot (sp?) (Dragonlance) for having an in character reason to not even recognize the concept of other people's property.

[Averis Vol]

Actually yes it is like that, really. Come steal from me and have me find out, at the very least I will hate you, at the most leave the state for your life. Have you considered why the Arabic punishment for thievery is so harsh? It's wrong to take what isn't yours. Example current day US Army you turn to me during a fight and shoot me, I'll kill you even if I have to wait a few minutes. This is like stealing from your own party members and don't try to pull the "well it wasn't distributed yet" BS, you still took out of our pockets. In a team game you just stole from your team. No one likes to be stole from. Paladins might fall(which is why I don't play paladins anymore) if they just kill you but good clerics won't just loose their powers. I'm sure even healing centric gods will let they're clerics skate by when they realize why.

Except this isn't real life, this isn't war and bringing in real life examples is incredible unnecessary. PC's don't even operate inside the confines of the law. Seriously, I may be missing something in your gaming history but you guys (not just you Vertharrad, yours is just the quote I first saw) are taking things way to seriously for a joke thread. The OP's example is more akin to someone taking a chip from your bag when you aren't looking, or switching your beer with a different one; its harmless shenanigans between friends.

[Spuddles]

Player entitlement & rampant metagaming in this thread

[Gavinfoxx]

You mean your groups DON'T have a kill kender on sight policy???

And yes, we would have killed tasslehoff. Because that **** works in books, not actual serious cooperative games that are meant to be hard!!

[The Grue]

There is, in fact, a more elegant solution to stealing from the party.

I recently played a Pathfinder campaign as the party Rogue, where we spent most of our time in the immediate area of the city of Katheer. With DM permission I took the Leadership feat and started setting up a Thieves' Guild to fill a previously empty niche in the city's economy. But of course, my character was an unknown, and without a reputation to fall back on might be seen to be easy pickings for another entrepreneurial individual to muscle him out. On the other hand, having a reputation as a renowned thief has obvious and inconvenient consequences in everyday dealings in the city.

So I took a page from Remington Steele and spent levels 4-7 creating a folk tale, the legend of a master thief from the great city of Absolom. I spent party downtime in taverns rolling Diplomacy and Perform checks spreading tales of his exploits and deeds, careful to make them sound just a little bit fantastical or implausible - tales that were too mundane, too believable would be too easily dismissed as an attempt at misdirection, was my thinking. Anyway it seemed to pay off; level 7 rolled around, and during party downtime my rogue assumed the mantle of this master thief and began building his organization.

I had previously pitched to the party the idea of a guild of thieves as a thing I wanted to do, and convinced them to chip in for startup costs on the basis that the guild assets could be used for the benefit of the party, mainly in information-gathering roles, and that they'd receive dividends from the guild's activities since they were essentially investors. This was unavoidable as my character did not personally have the funds to set up the operation on his own.

Anyway I announced to them that my rogue had been approached by a legendary master thief from Absolom looking to expand his operation, and that my organization would benefit from his reputation. Of course, the master thief required a slice of the guild's profits, say a clean 10-15% off the top. When I brought this up, no one batted an eyelash. :smallcool:

My point is, the question should not be "how do you steal from the party and not have them kill you for it", but "how do you steal from the party without them even suspecting".

[navar100]

It's nothing like that at all. I mean, you want to paint it like that, but instead ya'll sound like run-of-the-mill sociopaths from your typical gangster movie, executing someone over a couple keys cause hey, let that be a lesson to ya.

That's pretty much auto-fall territory for any paladin and probably revocation of most good clerics' powers.

As I said, I'm perfectly fine with such a result.

[Mari01]

As I said, I'm perfectly fine with such a result.

You are the most unfun person I've ever met. He's not saying to steal from everyone. You take a little bit out of the pot (that you just risked your life for FIRST in disabling/finding traps/baiting enemies) and spend it in a smart way for your team mates. Your fighter sees his 1000 gp and dreams of a new sword. You take an extra 500 and grab him a wand of not dying so he can use his new sword for longer.

[Vertharrad]

Gavin most groups I play with hate kender...me included, and would slaughter the poor fools. Yes going evil if need be to wipe they're blight from the face of Krynn. Burrfoot would be chum.

Averis Vol your right...adventurers have to face far greater threats than even we would, so why would they be lenient to a thief? One who would help corrupt and destroy what they're more than likely fighting for with petty thievery? On top of the fact that due to stealing from the party you caused the total curb-stomping of the party that last fight because they didn't have the items they would have had you divided everything up as normal(if only everyone else in the party had a few more gp...).

It all comes down to trust, if your character feels the need to steal from the party why are you still with them? You apparently don't trust them.

[Malroth]

Of course if one party member is a lawful evil necromancer you shouldn't be surprised if you wake up one morning as a Juju zombie under the necro players control.

[Gnaeus]

Most good groups I think would not kill a rogue for stealing from them. Most neutral groups wouldn't either.

They would just fire them. "Go away. If we ever see you near us or our stuff again, we WILL kill you. We will recruit another trapmonkey at the next opportunity. If any other adventuring groups or law enforcement authorities talk to us about you, we will tell them you are a thief. Good Bye."

I mean, if we stole from our jobs, thats pretty much what would happen, right?

Of course, from the Rogue's perspective, it all amounts to "Roll some D6s and try to make something that can cooperate this time". Dead or fired is still new character.

Edit: Except for the kender thing. I agree with Gavin and Navar here. Tasslehoff would be KOS immediately even if I had to lose class abilities to do it.

[Azoth]

Ok so for those who want to kill the thieves of the world, would you demand an equal share of the gold if the party thief ran a solo night job pilfering from a noble? How about if he cut some coin purses? Or even robbed a few choice items from various shops?

Would you kill him for doing those things and choosing to gift you a share? How about if he kept it to himself?

[Eldonauran]

Eh, I'm with Navar100 on this. You steal from me and I'm going to take it back from you, with interest. The interest being your flesh and blood.

I don't understand why people think stealing is fun, or can be fun. Perhaps they don't understand what stealing is or never thought about it logically. Stealing is taking something that you have no right to, from someone who has the rights to it. I'm not talking about legal rights, either. Someone comes by and takes your silver piece for the day, that you earned fairly as a laborer for that day, is effectively reducing you to a slave and stripping you of your personhood. You are basically being told your time, effort and everything else, is worthless.

So, yeah. :smallannoyed: Stealing ... :smallmad: ... Pushes ALL my buttons... :smallfurious:

And thus concludes my opinion on stealing. :smallbiggrin: Have a nice day. :smallwink:

[Kane0]

I'm loving this thread.

For those that would confront the rogue party member skimming the group profits: If playing with my group, prepare for PvP of the not very passive variety. All in game of course, my group is good on the player/character separation thing.

For those that would not confront the rogue party member skimming the group profits: Prepare to be poorer than average and taken advantage of every now and again if in my regular group :smallamused:

Every person and every character is different and has their own goals. Broadly speaking if my job was to risk my life and get richer than most kingdoms doing so I wouldn't mind letting a comrade help himself to a little extra as long as I can still trust him with the life risking part and I am still rich enough to live like a king. And that's if I know about it at all!

That said, taking stuff from me after the stuff has been handed out will mean you will need to roll initiative upon me finding out.

@V: BoutsofInsanity, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and a truly dastardly rogue. I applaud your thread and sticky fingers.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Ah My friends and comrades, you are not taking my lessons to heart! Never take from your investments! That is silly!

Out of Character!
So Navar brings up some good points, and I want to answer them without being silly.
First, don't steal from the party! Period. Don't pick pocket items of value, don't remove things from them that matter to their immediate meta game survival (Gear, more then 10 gold, health pots etc.) This hurts you in character and out of character.

Second, never take anything personal without giving it back. Example, the Paladin's journal, take it, sure, read it and put it back with a doodle. Maybe your rogue is young and curious (See Merry and Pippin from Lord of the Rings). You as a rogue don't place as much value on sentimental items, so you take it in good fun. The Paladin will not murder you because you are friends, and friends forgive. Do it again, after the warning and he may fist fight you, and you deserve it. However, murder would still not be appropriate. This gives great role play opportunity and good party interaction.

Third, when skimming from the top, never take and sell anything you can't use. Let me give an example of what to do, and what not to do.
First easy example, (Bilbo Baggins from Lord of the Rings, does not take the Arkenstone even though he could have. Why? Cause its actually important. The gold, not so much, because if you are a billionare, who misses 200000 dollars? Seriously, PC's, you are rich, absurdly rich, in the scheme of things, 200000 gold is nothing compared to what you carry around.)

On to the example. You are the rogue traveling with a wizard, barbarian, Paladin and Cleric. You are scouting ahead and find a secret passage to the treasure room. You enter, disarm the traps, (Out of game the group is watching) and find loot. You find 705324 gold, boots of spider climb, a magical monocle, a holy avenger bastard sword, a magical wand of cone of fire, and a belt of giant's strength. The dungeon is over and you are going back to town immediately after this and the party in game has no idea what you have found.

What not to do, as in, Navar is justified in smiting your ass if you do this...
Take the Holy Avenger Sword and sell it, 500 extra gold, the wand and boots and wear the belt of strength telling no one about it. (Bag of Holding win). You then show the room and say nothing at all. If the Paladin finds out, that you sold a HOLY Artifact, yah, he should smite you on principle.

What to do is this...
Skim five hundred gold from the top, use it to buy consumables and potions that you will use to share and be awesome. Maybe invest or something.
Take the boots, put on the monocle, wear the belt and hide the sword in your bag. Go back to town. Challenge the Barbarian to a arm wrestle, win, then show him the belt, give it to him and buy him a round. Sneak into the wizards room, replace his old monocle with the new one, see how long it takes him to notice. Keep the boots, tell no one, and surprise them by walking upside down. Then, at your first fight as a party, stop the paladin, and find some creative way to give him the sword that makes you sound awesome. Why this works, is because no one actually doesn't get their loot. Everyone obviously got what they needed, and before they needed it.

Anyway, that's my two cents, I just get tired of seeing rogues do it in such a way that ***** the party over. I play a rogue, and I found some keys to a dungeon. I never told the party, every time we came to a locked door I would just make them believe I was so awesome I could lock pick it open. When in fact I was using the keys to the dungeon.

Navar brings up good points, I think they are some metagame points, which I am against. But they are good points. The difference though from a metagame perspective is this.
If the player is doing it to be a chaotic neutral ****, then be a **** back. But if he is skimming from the top to be funny, have his spotlight moment and in all honesty trying to have a good time. Let him. Its a collaborative effort, as in, you have the things you enjoy in a game, and so does that player, therefore, you need to reach a compromise. Say to the player out of game, sure skim from the top, but never in a way that harms the party. That way, you don't get dicked over, and he can have his fun. That's my opinion anyway.

[georgie_leech]

-snipity-

So you basically told them how much you were stealing and you got away with it? Bravo! Very Thornish of you.

[drakonic]

In my group we loot the bodies and then revive players. So, we lie to to the revived players and tell them we got less loot than we actually got. It works even better because the players who can't participate in the battle stop paying attention to whats going on in the campaign.

[Averis Vol]

I coulda sworn the above was what we were all talking about D:

I would not be happy if we got jumped in the night and I noticed my longbow was missing, or my great axe and I saw the rogue snickering as he played with his new rings. But if we got to town and I noticed maybe a handful of coin was missing (Assuming I even noticed it) I'd probably just chalk it down to booze and food.

I don't think anyone was advocating stealing anything big.

[olentu]

Ok so for those who want to kill the thieves of the world, would you demand an equal share of the gold if the party thief ran a solo night job pilfering from a noble? How about if he cut some coin purses? Or even robbed a few choice items from various shops?

Would you kill him for doing those things and choosing to gift you a share? How about if he kept it to himself?

Who wants to kill the thieves of the world. Parties I have seen generally try to limit themselves to those thieves that directly affect them.

[Krobar]

Ok so for those who want to kill the thieves of the world, would you demand an equal share of the gold if the party thief ran a solo night job pilfering from a noble? How about if he cut some coin purses? Or even robbed a few choice items from various shops?

Would you kill him for doing those things and choosing to gift you a share? How about if he kept it to himself?

My characters generally don't want to kill the thieves of the world. Just the ones that steal from THEM. Run your solo night job. Anything you take in is yours because I wasn't part of it. Steal from some townies ... what you take is yours. But skim some of the treasure I risked MY life for, and you might just find yourself regretting it.

[Malroth]

its likely the fighter/barbarian/wizard etc will still face the fallout and legal problems caused by the thief's solo night adventure so they're still stealing from the party in the form of the increased danger from wanted posters and loss of safe cities to rest and purchase goods in.

[The Grue]

I don't understand why people think stealing is fun, or can be fun. Perhaps they don't understand what stealing is or never thought about it logically. Stealing is taking something that you have no right to, from someone who has the rights to it.

Are you taking the position that a party should never loot the orc stronghold or drow encampment or dragon horde they've just knocked over? After all, they had no rights to that stuff.

[Slipperychicken]

its likely the fighter/barbarian/wizard etc will still face the fallout and legal problems caused by the thief's solo night adventure so they're still stealing from the party in the form of the increased danger from wanted posters and loss of safe cities to rest and purchase goods in.

If that were so, they'd have faced legal action long ago for all the Orcs they killed... and the Human bandits... and the Goblins... and the Kobolds...


If you can kill an entire underground complex full of "bandits", and take their stuff without so much as a wrist-slap, you can axe a thief no problem. D&D games tend to take place in regions lawless enough to get away with this sort of thing (you're not going to have bandit problems in a well-governed and policed state anyway).

[Azoth]

Keep in mind most PCs kill things and take their belongings. Basically, if you can't defend it then it isn't rightfully yours. Now let's apply this same thought process to thievery. If you can't stop it from happening, then you had no true claim to what was stolen. Just as if someone takes it from the thief either by force or cunning then it was not ever his to begin with. So really, unless you are going to kill yourself for looting a corpse...don't get pissy with the party rogue.

[Spuddles]

If that were so, they'd have faced legal action long ago for all the Orcs they killed... and the Human bandits... and the Goblins... and the Kobolds...


If you can kill an entire underground complex full of "bandits", and take their stuff without so much as a wrist-slap, you can axe a thief no problem. D&D games tend to take place in regions lawless enough to get away with this sort of thing (you're not going to have bandit problems in a well-governed and policed state anyway).

I think you misinterpreted what he was saying.

[Adindra]

snip

I actually really like this idea, i may have to play a rogue and pull the bit with the sword and the items my group members would freak (but not in a bad way)

[Eldonauran]

Are you taking the position that a party should never loot the orc stronghold or drow encampment or dragon horde they've just knocked over? After all, they had no rights to that stuff.

Nope. That's merely you jumping to a situation in which the example you offered is more complicated that the one I offered. To defend what position I would take one that particular issue is to begin to debate alignment and morals that the board is highly polarized on, and that usually breaks down into people accusing others of calling how they play wrong. It'll end up, my fun vs your fun.

I am not partial into jumping into another argument in an attempt to define or defend my opinion. Lets leave it at: I believe that the players have no right to the treasure of the Orc stronghold, inherently. However, if the orcs had done something to merit a justifiable attack, the spoils of war/battle are a whole different thing.

:smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

Ah My friends and comrades, you are not taking my lessons to heart! Never take from your investments! That is silly! So essentially:
Limit the theft to flavouring. You're 'stealing' it, but in the end, everything's distributed basically the same way it would have been distributed anyway, correct?

[Averis Vol]

So essentially:
Limit the theft to flavouring. You're 'stealing' it, but in the end, everything's distributed basically the same way it would have been distributed anyway, correct?

Sounds like it, except with the caveat of you looking like the good guy when you hand out the potion or whatever to a friend in need.

[navar100]

You are the most unfun person I've ever met. He's not saying to steal from everyone. You take a little bit out of the pot (that you just risked your life for FIRST in disabling/finding traps/baiting enemies) and spend it in a smart way for your team mates. Your fighter sees his 1000 gp and dreams of a new sword. You take an extra 500 and grab him a wand of not dying so he can use his new sword for longer.

Or you can not steal, the fighter gets his original full share, and buys his own new sword.

[Malroth]

The actions of one party member constantly affect the health and wellbeing of the others, thus it needs to be a group decision as to who gets stolen from and when just like its a group decision as to wither to stop the wererats in the sewers or the evil cultists on the other side of the forest. A thief who breaks into the kings mansion on his own the evening after the big dungeon crawl isn't just stealing from the king but is stealing hard earned reputation from the Paladin who is the guard captain's son or the Bard who is trying to seduce the prince or the sorcerer who has his heart set on becoming the creepy goateed advisor. High stakes robbery campaigns can be fun but Dnd is a group game and if you want the adventure to start heading in that direction get the rest of the party in on the action since they're also going to be the ones who get hanged if you're spotted.

[bobthehero]

Keep in mind most PCs kill things and take their belongings. Basically, if you can't defend it then it isn't rightfully yours. Now let's apply this same thought process to thievery. If you can't stop it from happening, then you had no true claim to what was stolen. Just as if someone takes it from the thief either by force or cunning then it was not ever his to begin with. So really, unless you are going to kill yourself for looting a corpse...don't get pissy with the party rogue.

So if I kill the rogue for stealing my stuff and grab my things back, that means its not rightfully his/hers? Great, that's a purgin'

[navar100]

Ok so for those who want to kill the thieves of the world, would you demand an equal share of the gold if the party thief ran a solo night job pilfering from a noble? How about if he cut some coin purses? Or even robbed a few choice items from various shops?

Would you kill him for doing those things and choosing to gift you a share? How about if he kept it to himself?

The key word you are missing is stealing from the party. If during downtime the rogue goes off and pilfers the town coffers, my paladin may object in character but out of character that's your business. You're not stealing from the party.

[SaintRidley]

I count a bunch of people who don't sound very fun and one OP who sounds like just the kind of chap I'd play a game with.

Good work, OP.

[Spuddles]

The actions of one party member constantly affect the health and wellbeing of the others, thus it needs to be a group decision as to who gets stolen from and when just like its a group decision as to wither to stop the wererats in the sewers or the evil cultists on the other side of the forest. A thief who breaks into the kings mansion on his own the evening after the big dungeon crawl isn't just stealing from the king but is stealing hard earned reputation from the Paladin who is the guard captain's son or the Bard who is trying to seduce the prince or the sorcerer who has his heart set on becoming the creepy goateed advisor. High stakes robbery campaigns can be fun but Dnd is a group game and if you want the adventure to start heading in that direction get the rest of the party in on the action since they're also going to be the ones who get hanged if you're spotted.

Yeah?
Well the rogue has to deal with capturing prisoners and not slitting downed enemies' throats cause that stick up his ass paladin thinks he's a cop or something.

The party can deal with it. The rogue puts up with their lack of stealth, social finesse, and ruthlessness.

[Krobar]

Keep in mind most PCs kill things and take their belongings. Basically, if you can't defend it then it isn't rightfully yours. Now let's apply this same thought process to thievery. If you can't stop it from happening, then you had no true claim to what was stolen. Just as if someone takes it from the thief either by force or cunning then it was not ever his to begin with. So really, unless you are going to kill yourself for looting a corpse...don't get pissy with the party rogue.

Chaotic Evil, eh?

Good luck with that.

[Fable Wright]

If someone in my group started skimming profits from he party treasury...

Well, IC my reaction (for my current character) would be to warn them that if they're caught again, they will be killed brutally and before they can react. This is from the LG character, and the only one with an alignment north of Neutral.

Out of character, and possibly on other characters, I may be questioning whether or not it's worth it to keep around whose only job the rest of the party can't fill with a few thousand gold out of party funds, which over time would be much cheaper than the Rogue skimming profits for us.

[Slipperychicken]

Out of character, and possibly on other characters, I may be questioning whether or not it's worth it to keep around whose only job the rest of the party can't fill with a few thousand gold out of party funds, which over time would be much cheaper than the Rogue skimming profits for us.

I like the way you think. Don't forget you can pay for the wands with loot obtained from the Rogue's corpse.

[Augmental]

Alternate idea: Play an artificer. You can craft items for yourself and the party at half price - in exchange for a small crafter's fee, of course. :smallwink:

[Kane0]

I like the way you think. Don't forget you can pay for the wands with loot obtained from the Rogue's corpse.

Wow, you guys sound pretty brutal. No wonder the rogue is considering taking that gold, seeing how the rest of the party could possibly see it as a cheaper and more efficient replacement for him.

[HurinTheCursed]

In my group we loot the bodies and then revive players. So, we lie to to the revived players and tell them we got less loot than we actually got. It works even better because the players who can't participate in the battle stop paying attention to whats going on in the campaign.
In mine, if you didn't help the group cause you were away, you get no loot and no xp.

No matter how little the robber takes, if he's caught, he cannot prove he didn't take more before. So as long as he's not seen no problem in game, and out of the game, it depends on the amount. Once seen, problems IC and it depends on the amount OOC. If the group feels in insecurity because they believe their hard earned goods could be stolen, the ability to confide each other's life is pretty much ruined.

About the share, one could say the L20 druid and sorcerer make more than their share during adventures so they deserve more, that additional marginal loot given to them would be more effective in absolute and less in relative, that the rogue or the ranger needs two weapons enchanted even if the group could do without them. Where's the justice ?

If you buy a L10 fighter a new weapon, he won't be pleased. He'd probably rather have his sword worth halth his WBL further enchanted. And your ranger and barbarian buddies might take trapfinder and trapkiller features to avoid any form of rogue tax.

Finally, the best justification I found for my NG Minotaur to follow a quest to help Kenders is that 1) it is his destiny 2) racism: put all kenders in he same place and don't have to worry about them anymore. Prejudices turn to be always true by racial features, these little guys are not well seen by most party members and we even had a hot tempered monk that began to beat up an old kender PC at the first occasion.

[Talderas]

What's the Monk deserve a DOT for?

Being a MONK.

Massively Overrated Narm King

--


It's wrong to take what isn't yours.

Then why are you taking any loot from a dungeon? It's not yours. It is the property of someone else.

Philosophically, all adventurers are thieves. Some are just more willing to admit it.

[Slipperychicken]

Wow, you guys sound pretty brutal. No wonder the rogue is considering taking that gold, seeing how the rest of the party could possibly see it as a cheaper and more efficient replacement for him.

If someone's stealing from you, replacing him is a good idea even if you don't kill him. If the thief wanted to be a valued member of the team, he wouldn't be stealing from you now, would he? :smallwink:

If an employee steals his coworker's paychecks (even if he uses some of it to buy the office a shiny new printer), he should expect to be fired, replaced (and have a criminal record which makes him unemployable), fined, and tossed in jail for a few years.

[DeltaEmil]

Nobody likes a Kender. Don't play a Kender.

[Vertharrad]

Being a MONK.

Massively Overrated Narm King

--



Then why are you taking any loot from a dungeon? It's not yours. It is the property of someone else.

Philosophically, all adventurers are thieves. Some are just more willing to admit it.

There's a difference from dividing the spoils after taking care of a credible threat to honest hard working people(that dragon stole it's treasure from somewhere) than just taking stuff from your own team.
So by your own philosophy I should take all of your rogues things, sell them, and go get my nice somewhat still shiny sword upgraded? Are you saying your rogue would be fine with this? No? Why? You just said it's okay...

[Talderas]

There's a difference from dividing the spoils after taking care of a credible threat to honest hard working people(that dragon stole it's treasure from somewhere) than just taking stuff from your own team.
So by your own philosophy I should take all of your rogues things, sell them, and go get my nice somewhat still shiny sword upgraded? Are you saying your rogue would be fine with this? No? Why? You just said it's okay...

There is a difference. The thief simply applies a lesser version of might makes right. The other simply says "I kill you so I get your stuff."

Theft is depriving the rightful owner of his property.

Inheritors typically have the right to the property of an individual who dies.

Now, let us present the common situation that has people up in arms.

The thief finds a small cache of treasure in a dragon's lair. He skims a few coins off the top before presenting the treasure to the party. The rogue has committed theft against the dragon (or its inheritors if it should be dead) and not against the party. A small portion of what was stolen was illegally transfered to the rogue. The lion's share of what was stolen was illegally transfered to the party's collective share and by extension the party itself.

Additionally, should the adventures have killed the dragon to get to the treasure they may be guilty of murder, manslaughter, or have killed the dragon in self defense. None of these cases would give the adventurers right to the dragon's horde.

All told the adventures are probably guilty of at least the following crimes during the course of their adventure.

Burglary, Theft, Murder


The amazing part is seeing how easily players fall into the seven deadly sins.

Greed, Wrath, and Envy are all trivially acknowledged, I can make an argument about Sloth and Pride, and I'm sure with enough posts Gluttony and Lust will rear their ugly heads.

[Renen]

I think if you have a rouge in the party, you should expect stealing.
Expecting rouge to suddenly NOT steal is stupid.
Its like expecting a paladin to defy the paladin code just because its more convenient for the group. Sometimes they might, other times they wont.


There's a difference from dividing the spoils after taking care of a credible threat to honest hard working people(that dragon stole it's treasure from somewhere) than just taking stuff from your own team.
So by your own philosophy I should take all of your rogues things, sell them, and go get my nice somewhat still shiny sword upgraded? Are you saying your rogue would be fine with this? No? Why? You just said it's okay...

What if that dragon just naturally poops gold coins and gems? What if you walked into his home, and stole all his precious poop, after you killed him? Or maybe he is a good dragon, and he got the gold as a reward for defending some kingdom from an undead horde? And you kill the nice dragon? Damn evil adventurers.


If someone's stealing from you, replacing him is a good idea even if you don't kill him. If the thief wanted to be a valued member of the team, he wouldn't be stealing from you now, would he? :smallwink:

If an employee steals his coworker's paychecks (even if he uses some of it to buy the office a shiny new printer), he should expect to be fired, replaced (and have a criminal record which makes him unemployable), fined, and tossed in jail for a few years.

And if you are working alongside a con man, is it not a given that eventually you will get conned by him?

[Gnaeus]

I think if you have a rouge in the party, you should expect stealing.
Expecting rouge to suddenly NOT steal is stupid.

It is true. People who wear make-up are prone to criminal acts.

[Talderas]

It is true. People who wear make-up are prone to criminal acts.

Most often that crime is prostitution.

[Krobar]

Most often that crime is prostitution.

That's not a crime in Faerun.

[Vertharrad]

There is a difference. The thief simply applies a lesser version of might makes right. The other simply says "I kill you so I get your stuff."

Theft is depriving the rightful owner of his property.

Inheritors typically have the right to the property of an individual who dies.

Now, let us present the common situation that has people up in arms.

The thief finds a small cache of treasure in a dragon's lair. He skims a few coins off the top before presenting the treasure to the party. The rogue has committed theft against the dragon (or its inheritors if it should be dead) and not against the party. A small portion of what was stolen was illegally transfered to the rogue. The lion's share of what was stolen was illegally transfered to the party's collective share and by extension the party itself.

Additionally, should the adventures have killed the dragon to get to the treasure they may be guilty of murder, manslaughter, or have killed the dragon in self defense. None of these cases would give the adventurers right to the dragon's horde.

All told the adventures are probably guilty of at least the following crimes during the course of their adventure.

Burglary, Theft, Murder


The amazing part is seeing how easily players fall into the seven deadly sins.

Greed, Wrath, and Envy are all trivially acknowledged, I can make an argument about Sloth and Pride, and I'm sure with enough posts Gluttony and Lust will rear their ugly heads.
I don't advocate might makes right
I don't kill creatures just to get their treasure
I am reclaiming the things the dragon took from others, if my character can track all them down and compensate them he/she will
and as for the seven sins we all have at least 1 so whatever
The issue is you have someone taking from the group at large in order to do probably what the group was going to do anyways, and my character either way would rather you respect him/her enough to make their own decision about what to do with their share of the treasure(as will my character do for your character...do unto others what you will have them do unto you)


I think if you have a rouge in the party, you should expect stealing.
Expecting rouge to suddenly NOT steal is stupid.
Its like expecting a paladin to defy the paladin code just because its more convenient for the group. Sometimes they might, other times they wont.



What if that dragon just naturally poops gold coins and gems? What if you walked into his home, and stole all his precious poop, after you killed him? Or maybe he is a good dragon, and he got the gold as a reward for defending some kingdom from an undead horde? And you kill the nice dragon? Damn evil adventurers.



And if you are working alongside a con man, is it not a given that eventually you will get conned by him?
Stealing okay expected at least a little...steal from me or their teammates hell no. You don't build trust that way.
I don't play paladins
Funny if the dragon does
No I don't go through anyone's excrement
If the dragon is good and helping the kingdom I'm not there attacking it...I have no reason to do so
I don't play evil

[Renen]

Yeh, a dragon helped a kingdom 100 years ago, and since then been napping in a cave. How many adventures stop to talk to a dragon they find in a dungeon? That's right not many.

And might does make right. Biggest examples are gods. They can do whatever the hell they want because they are strongest. This can work just as well between mortals. If you are indeed strong, you can do w/e you want provided you don't meet someone stronger.

[Eldest]

I think if you have a rouge in the party, you should expect stealing.
Expecting rouge to suddenly NOT steal is stupid.
Its like expecting a paladin to defy the paladin code just because its more convenient for the group. Sometimes they might, other times they wont.

And if you are working alongside a con man, is it not a given that eventually you will get conned by him?

Ok, frank question: what the deuce are you talking about? Sure, if you are working along side a thief, take precautions. But a Rogue (class) is not a thief (profession) by definition.

[Augmental]

Yeh, a dragon helped a kingdom 100 years ago, and since then been napping in a cave. How many adventures stop to talk to a dragon they find in a dungeon? That's right not many.

If a dragon was just napping in a cave, adventurers wouldn't be going after it, would they?


And might does make right. Biggest examples are gods. They can do whatever the hell they want because they are strongest.

Not unless they're an overdeity.


This can work just as well between mortals. If you are indeed strong, you can do w/e you want provided you don't meet someone stronger.

By that logic, the wizard should just take all the fighter's stuff because he's a tier 5. :smallannoyed:

[Talderas]

I don't advocate might makes right
I don't kill creatures just to get their treasure
I am reclaiming the things the dragon took from others, if my character can track all them down and compensate them he/she will

So you're claiming things you, or others, allege the dragon took from others while using force (might) to exert that you are correct.

[Renen]

If a dragon was just napping in a cave, adventurers wouldn't be going after it, would they?



Not unless they're an overdeity.



By that logic, the wizard should just take all the fighter's stuff because he's a tier 5. :smallannoyed:

The cave can just have some other actually bad monsters. Adventurers clean em out and find the dragon in a far corner of the dungeon. Totally plausible.

And you are mostly right. By that logic the wizard indeed CAN (but not should, which implies that he HAS to do it) take all the fighter's stuff.

[Renen]

Ok, frank question: what the deuce are you talking about? Sure, if you are working along side a thief, take precautions. But a Rogue (class) is not a thief (profession) by definition.


I am assuming everyone is RPing properly, and the rouge that steals is indeed a thief.

[Augmental]

And you are mostly right. By that logic the wizard indeed CAN (but not should, which implies that he HAS to do it) take all the fighter's stuff.

And would you steal all the fighter's stuff in an actual game?


I am assuming everyone is RPing properly, and the rogue that steals is indeed a thief.

So playing a rogue character as anything but a criminal is roleplaying badly?

[Anteros]

5th Rule
Make sure your group will tolerate it!! Too often, players will pull these shenanigans and ruin their trust and OOC relationships with people at the table. It's not worth spoiling real-life friendships over a few in-game gold. So make double-sure you the A-Okay, then go steal and lie like your favorite politician.

Anyone willing to end a real world friendship over a few imaginary gold pieces wasn't a real friend anyway.

[Sylthia]

Rogues are not indiscriminate kleptomaniacs. Some may be, but that is the exception, not the rule. It's a good idea to stay on your party's good side. It kinda goes along with the guy who thinks he can get away with anything because he plays CN, being a rogue is not an excuse to be a jerk to the party. RPGs are more fun in general as co-op and if the party is not trying to screw each other over.

[Sylthia]

Anyone willing to end a real world friendship over a few imaginary gold pieces wasn't a real friend anyway.

When I'm playing Gauntlet with some friends and they steal my treasure everyone once in a while, it might be funny, but if someone comes in and does it all the time, it's going to annoy me.

Not everyone in an RP group is friends before hand. In my current group, I knew 3 of them before we started playing, and the other half are friends of friends that joined. It's a good idea to play nice when you start, otherwise it might irritate your would-be friends. Thankfully I haven't had this problem with my group, but it has been an issue in the past.

[navar100]

I count a bunch of people who don't sound very fun and one OP who sounds like just the kind of chap I'd play a game with.

Good work, OP.

Oh, so I have to give up my fun so you can have your fun? Why are you incapable of keeping your thieving fun against NPCs so that we both can have fun?

[Anteros]

So if your friend took 1 dollar from your wallet everyday and you found out would you trust and/or associate with them anymore? In my groups the threat of bodily harm will be backed up with action, you just took from my livelihood. The same goes for adventuring companies, if someone keeps taking what should be an equal share what are they going to graduate to in the future?

Betrayal doesn't stop with chump change...your characters next betrayal could end up killing another character. Me and my groups are not murder hobos, but we have had to deal with flagrant thieves in the past - Never Again! Parker from Leverage is a thief and a hoarder, however AFAIK she doesn't steal from their take or her friends. If my character can't trust the party members to "watch his back" than he leaves...down that road lies ruin.

I think that if you risked your life for me in combat and saved me from deadly traps on a regular basis I would probably overlook you taking a dollar out of my wallet, yes.

[Krobar]

I think that if you risked your life for me in combat and saved me from deadly traps on a regular basis I would probably overlook you taking a dollar out of my wallet, yes.

How about if YOU saved HIS life on a regular basis, and the thanks you received was him stealing from you? That's okay too?

Adventuring is not a one-way street. I've never been part of a game / party where someone just tagged along for the ride. Everyone relies on everyone. Everyone saves everyone routinely. Stealing from the person that saved your life is a slap to the face. It's an insult. There are only a few things that sink lower than that.

[Anteros]

He's not talking about pawning the Barbarian's axe here. He's talking about palming 5 gold pieces or taking a piece of loot and giving it to someone instead of letting them find it. It's not being adversarial, it's a character quirk.

If you're the type of person who is going to throw a hissy fit over something so trivial as scooping 5 gold out of a chest of 10,000 I don't want to game with you anyway.

[Renen]

And would you steal all the fighter's stuff in an actual game?

No. Because I dont play thief type characters. If I was, I might, depending on my character.




So playing a rogue character as anything but a criminal is roleplaying badly?

No. But playing a rouge that IS a thief according to his back story, without even considering to take some loot, might be.

[Krobar]

He's not talking about pawning the Barbarian's axe here. He's talking about palming 5 gold pieces or taking a piece of loot and giving it to someone instead of letting them find it. It's not being adversarial, it's a character quirk.

If you're the type of person who is going to throw a hissy fit over something so trivial as scooping 5 gold out of a chest of 10,000 I don't want to game with you anyway.


It's not about the amount. It's about the trust. Would you trust your life to someone who steals from you? Would you trust that he's always got your back? I wouldn't. It may just be a "quirk", but it's a "quirk" that results in lack of trust and lack of faith, and a feeling of betrayal.

Besides, 5 gp today ... 5 gp tomorrow ... one of those 500 gp emeralds a couple days after that ... it adds up. Pretty soon we're talking about real money.

[Renen]

It's not about the amount. It's about the trust. Would you trust your life to someone who steals from you? Would you trust that he's always got your back? I wouldn't.

Besides, 5 gp today ... 5 gp tomorrow ... one of those 500 gp emeralds a couple days after that ... it adds up. Pretty soon we're talking about real money.

I think as long as the thief steals from the loot in the next room its fine. If he actually lifts the paladin's sword... then we might have a problem

[DeltaEmil]

I think that if you risked your life for me in combat and saved me from deadly traps on a regular basis I would probably overlook you taking a dollar out of my wallet, yes.But why would that character still steal from you? Does he or she have a mental illness and is a kleptomaniac? If you're traveling and adventuring with other powerful people that can bisect a huge giant in two with one strike or summon flaming bears riding on bigger flaming bears that are shooting flaming bears out from their mouth, and these people who can cleave a giant in two and summon inferno bears kill huge and terrible monsters who have lots of money, why would you actually want to steal from those giant-cleavers and burning bear-shaped-death launchers? These are people willing to kill huge abominations and take their stuff and are very capable of doing so. Trying to take their stuff would really just be a death-wish. If a wannabe-thief still has the need to steal from flaming flying weapon-masters and wants to continue adventuring with them, the wannabe-thief has to be quite mentally deficient, like a Kender.

[Krobar]

I think as long as the thief steals from the loot in the next room its fine. If he actually lifts the paladin's sword... then we might have a problem

How would a thief feel if he found out he had to go risk his life a few extra times to be able to afford those masterwork enchanted thieves' tools he wants, in order to benefit the party, because the sorcerer was skimming?

Once you steal from me, I steal from you. Then the sorcerer steals from both of us ... eventually someone gets mad enough and PCs start dying. I've seen it many times.

[Sylthia]

I think Spoony had a video basically saying if as a DM, you want the PCs to do something, steal from them and they will stop at nothing to get their stuff back. Power-gamer or not, players tend to be possessive about their loot.

[Gnaeus]

Let me also point out that this kind of behavior is not actually likely to be beneficial for a rogue character.

Sure, he can pocket some occasional loot, but if the players feel that there is an attitude of "get what you can" the rogue is going to get the super short end of the stick, even if other PCs don't kill or eject him.

For example. Who casts the Identify in the party? Almost always the Wizard. If he tells the party that the Pearl of Power level 3 is actually a level 1 and he chalks it up to his share of the treasure at 1k instead of 9, no one else has any way to know.

Here's another. In a cooperative game, when my Tier one sits down in downtime and starts crafting items for the party, I either charge them cost, or a small surcharge that goes into making items for the party. If the rogue wants to be in character and steal from me, I will be in character when I charge him 80 or 90% of market value when I make him those gloves of Dex, and if he bitches I will explain that if I have to spend my own life energy making his toys that isn't free, and he can suck it up or buy his loot on the market. That is a perfectly reasonable position for a PC to take, but probably not one that I will take in the metagame if I think we are a working team.

[Renen]

Why would a well educated scholar who spent 1/2 his life studying in a library be stealing?

Where as I can give you plenty of reasons why a thief might.

[Gnaeus]

A character class is not a personality. He might steal because he is power hungry like Raistlin and he knows that all his money will be farmed back into his spellbook. He might steal because he wants to buy his way into the best wizard school. He might steal so that he can spend the money hiring all the whores who wouldn't sleep with him when he was up all night studying his books. He might be a kleptomaniac, who regularly stole peoples quills and parchment when he was in mage school. He might steal just to see if he can get away with it. He might think that the muggles in the party are less than him because they have no magic, or because they aren't as smart as he is. He might think that because he is the most powerful, he deserves the most loot.

[Gabe the Bard]

Sorry I didn't have time to read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned, but trading secret notes (or not-so-secret notes) with the GM is one way to skim a bit off the top without letting the other players know exactly how much is missing.

If you both have smart phones, you could text each other in real time as well, and that might actually keep the other players in the dark, at least until they start to notice that you and your GM are always looking at your phones at the same time.

But I think the best thing is to be open about the fact that you're sending secret messages to the DM, just don't tell them what you've actually saying. If the other players are cool, they won't go nuts over it, but it can add a bit of suspense as long as you don't piss anyone off.

[Sylthia]

Why would a well educated scholar who spent 1/2 his life studying in a library be stealing?

Where as I can give you plenty of reasons why a thief might.

White collar crime? Without going into real-life examples, there are plenty of examples of well-educated people embezzling or acting fraudulently.

In med school we had to take a whole class on ethics on the subject.

[Renen]

Then if he really is a type of character who would steal, then he steals. I would not use OOC knowledge to catch him. I would not be mad at the player himself.

[Augmental]

Why would a well educated scholar who spent 1/2 his life studying in a library be stealing?

Because he's a well-educated scholarly thief who spent half his life studying in a library attempting to discover the ultimate theory of perfect thievery?


Where as I can give you plenty of reasons why a thief might.

Because his player wants to roll up an artificer?

[Gnaeus]

Whether you have the right to be mad at the player depends on the social contract of that game. Some groups are cooperative, team games. Others are more competitive. Others just put the emphasis on what your character would do.

If it is a team game, and the rogue is stealing from the team, the rogue's player is being a jerk. If it is a RP driven game, everyone should just be doing what their character would do. If it is a competitive game, the rogue can make out the best he can, but he is likely to get shafted by characters who are higher on the food chain.

[Gavinfoxx]

No. Because I dont play thief type characters. If I was, I might, depending on my character.



No. But playing a rouge that IS a thief according to his back story, without even considering to take some loot, might be.

R-O-G-U-E

Is! not!

R-O-U-G-E

[Sylthia]

R-O-G-U-E

Is! not!

R-O-U-G-E

Rouges are overpowdered.

[Slipperychicken]

Rouges are overpowdered.

Either way, replacing one's burglar with makeup, even high-quality makeup, is considered bad form.

Rouge does have the benefit, though, of stealing nothing from you aside from your natural beauty :smalltongue:

[Renen]

Sorry, my russian is showing.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcStQ1p0re-G7WQV5MyGFxMJPxVJ8xNy9b7G18i7L6G0MECp-SHWSw

[Gavinfoxx]

if you mentally say 'rooj' whenever you see rouge, and 'rowg' when you see rogue, it will help.

[navar100]

He's not talking about pawning the Barbarian's axe here. He's talking about palming 5 gold pieces or taking a piece of loot and giving it to someone instead of letting them find it. It's not being adversarial, it's a character quirk.

If you're the type of person who is going to throw a hissy fit over something so trivial as scooping 5 gold out of a chest of 10,000 I don't want to game with you anyway.

Promise?

(I was waiting for someone to say that!)

[Anteros]

Promise?

(I was waiting for someone to say that!)

Oh yes, I absolutely promise. Believe me when I say that given your comments throughout this thread I would have absolutely a 0% desire to ever sit down at a gaming table with you. The fact that you are genuinely proud enough of the fact that several people have left games rather than dealing with your tantrums that you would brag about it is absolutely mind boggling to me.

No offense, but it's a game. Even if someone else does "make you lose" it's still just a game and not worth real life confrontation unless they are intentionally trying to antagonize you in real life.

[Renen]

Oh yes, I absolutely promise. Believe me when I say that given your comments throughout this thread I would have absolutely a 0% desire to ever sit down at a gaming table with you. The fact that you are genuinely proud enough of the fact that several people have left games rather than dealing with your tantrums that you would brag about it is absolutely mind boggling to me.

No offense, but it's a game. Even if someone else does "make you lose" it's still just a game and not worth real life confrontation unless they are intentionally trying to antagonize you in real life.

I wouldnt go quite THAT far, but I would also dislike playing with someone who (as you stated) would use OOC knowledge to metagame and kill the said thief on the spot, even if it meant that your character is also lost.

[Augmental]

I wouldnt go quite THAT far, but I would also dislike playing with someone who (as you stated) would use OOC knowledge to metagame and kill the said thief on the spot, even if it meant that your character is also lost.

On the plus side, then they could roll up an artificer and get a bigger share of the loot without angering the party.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Wow, I never imagined the thread would take off like this. :smallcool: Freakin sweet. It has inspired me to tackle the Paladin problem next though. And I did at least help one person with the "Guide" so that's accomplishing something. And to clarify,

Generally don't steal from the party. But if you must, follow my guide. Then you won't be hated for it. And again, this looks at the rogue in a more traditional setting of Nice Guy Paladin, Dumb Strong Barbarian, Old Man Wizard and Sneaky Thief. The idea of this thread is to encourage roleplay of a greedy individual while not shafting the people you game with and killing your character.

I picture it like this... This is what goes through the thief's mind as he skims from the top.
" O.k. five hundred gold finders fee, I am running low on Thunder Stones, and I could use some more trap materials. Oh, a Holy Avenger Sword, hmm, better keep that safe till I can give it to the Paladin. Oh boy a monocle, I wonder if I can swap that with the Wizards, a gift for saving my bacon from that Bugbear. A belt of GIANT STRENGTH, oh goodness, we can make some money off of this bad puppy. Me and the Barbarian are gonna run a scam, it will be great! I should trick him first, to see if I can do it of course, not for my own amusement, never! Etc..."

Obviously this doesn't work if you are in a party of Artemis Entreri's. But if you are in a party of Drizzit who will laugh at your antics, then go for it. It depends on how well you know the party. If your rogue has traveled with them for a year, yah, you can pull **** like this and be fine. If you just joined them, you are going to get fired.

[DeltaEmil]

This implies that the rogue/thief isn't the one who actually has to be saved all the time and is the load, barely tolerated by the party only for his supbar job at having to unlock doors and disarm traps, because the spellcasters consider themselves above such menial work best reserved for summoned things or lowly peasants, and the beatsticks don't simply smash the traps and doors to not waste time.

[navar100]

Wow, I never imagined the thread would take off like this. :smallcool: Freakin sweet. It has inspired me to tackle the Paladin problem next though. And I did at least help one person with the "Guide" so that's accomplishing something. And to clarify,

Generally don't steal from the party. But if you must, follow my guide. Then you won't be hated for it. And again, this looks at the rogue in a more traditional setting of Nice Guy Paladin, Dumb Strong Barbarian, Old Man Wizard and Sneaky Thief. The idea of this thread is to encourage roleplay of a greedy individual while not shafting the people you game with and killing your character.

I picture it like this... This is what goes through the thief's mind as he skims from the top.
" O.k. five hundred gold finders fee, I am running low on Thunder Stones, and I could use some more trap materials. Oh, a Holy Avenger Sword, hmm, better keep that safe till I can give it to the Paladin. Oh boy a monocle, I wonder if I can swap that with the Wizards, a gift for saving my bacon from that Bugbear. A belt of GIANT STRENGTH, oh goodness, we can make some money off of this bad puppy. Me and the Barbarian are gonna run a scam, it will be great! I should trick him first, to see if I can do it of course, not for my own amusement, never! Etc..."

Obviously this doesn't work if you are in a party of Artemis Entreri's. But if you are in a party of Drizzit who will laugh at your antics, then go for it. It depends on how well you know the party. If your rogue has traveled with them for a year, yah, you can pull **** like this and be fine. If you just joined them, you are going to get fired.

There is no "must". A player chooses to steal from the party. He's not forced to as a roleplaying choice. There is no time limit of "after this many adventures you are permitted to disrespect your party members by stealing from them". Your whole premise is flawed.

[Augmental]

This implies that the rogue/thief isn't the one who actually has to be saved all the time and is the load, barely tolerated by the party only for his supbar job at having to unlock doors and disarm traps, because the spellcasters consider themselves above such menial work best reserved for summoned things or lowly peasants, and the beatsticks don't simply smash the traps and doors to not waste time.

Or just play an artificer, and get the best of spellcasting and rogues. :smallwink:

[BoutsofInsanity]

Navar, I am disappointed in you. I have frequently stated you raise good points, and have respectfully talked about you in a nice manner. Then you turn around and act condescendingly to me about my premise being flawed.

Bro, relax, we have gotten that you will go ooc and kill a rogue and kick people out of your tables. Obviously, this post was not for you and I don't know why you are still reading it. You aren't going to convince me that I am 100% wrong and you are 100% right. This guide was for the rogues who do steal from the party to be *****. Rather then tell me I am wrong, look at how you can contribute to the guide instead.

Give a reasoned response on how you can have the rogue steal, and not be ******* over the party. I gave one way. Others have been mentioned.

1. Steal from NPC's
2. Keep the Ledger and take that way
3. Charge for your services up front
4. Don't do it.

I actually created this in response to this thread right here. I wanted to provide a way for the rogue in question to act like he has been acting and not get squicked. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281491

And I keep saying that this all depends on the party comp. Relax and keep cool!:smallcool:

[Aegis013]

1. Steal from NPC's
2. Keep the Ledger and take that way
3. Charge for your services up front
4. Don't do it.


You might consider adding ensuring that other players understand what they're getting into/what they're going to be dealing with.

If you approached me before a game and said "Hey, I want to play a <sneaky character> who will be a thief, and may skim from the treasury, but will ensure that all the appropriate rewards get where they're going before it could cause an increased risk factor for the other characters and won't take the spending decisions out of the other player's hands." (like your example) I would probably respond "Alright, I don't mind, just be sure that everybody gets the appropriate access to the loot they were intended to receive, and spending decisions aren't taken away from other players and we'll be cool."

But I have to agree with some of the other posters, it's about the principle of the thing. If I'm a sensible adventurer (to the degree that someone in said profession can be sensible) and discover that someone is holding back discovery of loot for even some amount of time, it would cause an erosion of trust. It'd be time to sit down and think - what are the ramifications of this person's actions on the both the survival and well being of the whole group and myself. Then react accordingly, and everybody is going to have a differing intensity to this particular breach of trust.

It's better to either be sure that everybody is on board in the first place or to not take that risk, in my opinion.

[Sylthia]

Navar, I am disappointed in you. I have frequently stated you raise good points, and have respectfully talked about you in a nice manner. Then you turn around and act condescendingly to me about my premise being flawed.

Bro, relax, we have gotten that you will go ooc and kill a rogue and kick people out of your tables. Obviously, this post was not for you and I don't know why you are still reading it. You aren't going to convince me that I am 100% wrong and you are 100% right. This guide was for the rogues who do steal from the party to be *****. Rather then tell me I am wrong, look at how you can contribute to the guide instead.

Give a reasoned response on how you can have the rogue steal, and not be ******* over the party. I gave one way. Others have been mentioned.

1. Steal from NPC's
2. Keep the Ledger and take that way
3. Charge for your services up front
4. Don't do it.

I actually created this in response to this thread right here. I wanted to provide a way for the rogue in question to act like he has been acting and not get squicked. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281491

And I keep saying that this all depends on the party comp. Relax and keep cool!:smallcool:

For that particular example, my characters would either kick the thief out of the party or outright kill him. I think option 1 and 4 are perfectly fine. 3 could be justified with proper RP, but that might lead to turn-about-is-fair-play from the rest of the party. Option 2 is straight-up dishonest both IC and OOC.

[Averis Vol]

Another one I just kinda thought of.

Feign Ignorance:
In dangerous dungeon terrain, monsters are as paranoid about the party caster when it comes to their loot, and will take steps to hide it from the grubby fingered PC's. When you enter the room, and inevitably find the poorly hidden loot, take a few coins, a potion or maybe a small gem and leave the room, claiming to have found nothing. Then when the rest of your party joins you in the room, and make sure to leave it somewhere open but not completely obvious, have them find the loot you somehow "missed". Now they feel good they were more perceptive then the thief, and they get to divide the gold as they see fit. Note: don't do this every room or they will start to doubt your competence.

[Vertharrad]

Navar, I am disappointed in you. I have frequently stated you raise good points, and have respectfully talked about you in a nice manner. Then you turn around and act condescendingly to me about my premise being flawed.

Bro, relax, we have gotten that you will go ooc and kill a rogue and kick people out of your tables. Obviously, this post was not for you and I don't know why you are still reading it. You aren't going to convince me that I am 100% wrong and you are 100% right. This guide was for the rogues who do steal from the party to be *****. Rather then tell me I am wrong, look at how you can contribute to the guide instead.

Give a reasoned response on how you can have the rogue steal, and not be ******* over the party. I gave one way. Others have been mentioned.

1. Steal from NPC's
2. Keep the Ledger and take that way
3. Charge for your services up front
4. Don't do it.

I actually created this in response to this thread right here. I wanted to provide a way for the rogue in question to act like he has been acting and not get squicked. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281491

And I keep saying that this all depends on the party comp. Relax and keep cool!:smallcool:

1. fine as long as it doesn't negatively affect the party or the party finds out
2. Wrong answer...here we go stealing from the party again
3. Wrong answer...turn about is fair play
4. Right answer...don't steal from the party

My characters reaction to #1 would depend on what happens afterward and if s/he finds out. My characters reaction to #2 when(not if) it becomes apparent(yeah your being all generous with your gifts and can buy what you want/need?) is going to be negative...beat up thief and take back what we worked so hard for, chop thief's hand off(probably right hand), kill thief. #3 - you don't want to go there...every character can find a reason to do this; don't you get enough treasure at it is? thieves guild rogues would kill to get the equal share you get from adventuring. #4 is the right answer...enough said.

There is 1 other thing you can do granted the party is notified. Set aside a share for the party treasure(and leave any overage in the party treasure as well) just in case you should need to bring someone back from death or need to get a particular item later that is integral to your endeavor at the time.

[Anteros]

Wow, I never imagined the thread would take off like this. :smallcool: Freakin sweet. It has inspired me to tackle the Paladin problem next though. And I did at least help one person with the "Guide" so that's accomplishing something. And to clarify,

Generally don't steal from the party. But if you must, follow my guide. Then you won't be hated for it. And again, this looks at the rogue in a more traditional setting of Nice Guy Paladin, Dumb Strong Barbarian, Old Man Wizard and Sneaky Thief. The idea of this thread is to encourage roleplay of a greedy individual while not shafting the people you game with and killing your character.

I picture it like this... This is what goes through the thief's mind as he skims from the top.
" O.k. five hundred gold finders fee, I am running low on Thunder Stones, and I could use some more trap materials. Oh, a Holy Avenger Sword, hmm, better keep that safe till I can give it to the Paladin. Oh boy a monocle, I wonder if I can swap that with the Wizards, a gift for saving my bacon from that Bugbear. A belt of GIANT STRENGTH, oh goodness, we can make some money off of this bad puppy. Me and the Barbarian are gonna run a scam, it will be great! I should trick him first, to see if I can do it of course, not for my own amusement, never! Etc..."

Obviously this doesn't work if you are in a party of Artemis Entreri's. But if you are in a party of Drizzit who will laugh at your antics, then go for it. It depends on how well you know the party. If your rogue has traveled with them for a year, yah, you can pull **** like this and be fine. If you just joined them, you are going to get fired.

I have to admit that I don't actually like this part of your idea. Why should the rogue get to arbitrate who gets what loot? Let other people decide what they want. Part of the fun of the game is finding treasure and divying it up. You're effectively taking that away from them by doing this. I could see maybe doing it one time if it's a piece of loot that obviously only one party member could use. Don't make a habit of it though or it will just get annoying.

I also don't advocate ever taking any amount that actually matters. Scooping 5 gold out of a chest of 10,000 is acceptable...scooping 500 is not. Even if you try to justify it by saying you are buying things to benefit the others...that's not your decision to make.

Honestly, I think the only proper way to run this type of character is just to tell the other players up front what you will be doing and see how they react. If they don't mind then go for it, but if they do just don't do it.

[Raimun]

Do note that when the thieving rogue's party members find out s/he's skimming the top, it's just roleplaying to feel upset about it, trust the rogue less and most likely punish him/her. :smallamused:

In or out of character, it's not wise to betray your comrades in arms... especially for petty reasons. :smallwink:

[Slipperychicken]

Do note that when the thieving rogue's party members find out s/he's skimming the top, it's just roleplaying to feel upset about it, trust the rogue less and most likely punish him/her. :smallamused:


Good call.

[Rogue steals from the Fighter]

Fighter: You can't just steal from us! :smallmad:

Rogue: I'm just playing my character, deal with it! :smallbiggrin:

[Fighter begins brutalizing Rogue]

Rogue: You can't just attack a party member! :smallfrown:

Fighter: I'm just playing my character, deal with it! :smallbiggrin:

[Averis Vol]

Good call.

[Rogue steals from the Fighter]

Fighter: You can't just steal from us! :smallmad:

Rogue: I'm just playing my character, deal with it! :smallbiggrin:

[Fighter begins brutalizing Rogue]

Rogue: You can't just attack a party member! :smallfrown:

Fighter: I'm just playing my character, deal with it! :smallbiggrin:

wait, all your rogues don't keep eggshell grenades? theres no way in hell the fighter should catch the tricksy rogue.

[tcrudisi]

As a DM, I have exactly one house-rule: Play nice with your party-members. No conflict within the party. This includes killing and stealing.

If they want to play that type of character, I will happily run that type of game - but then I inform all the players of that. It usually gets shot down, because while there's usually one person who wants to "roleplay" that guy, no one wants to be in a party where everyone does it (in my experience).

[Gnaeus]

My old gaming group included a lot of LARPers. Players whose first gaming experiences with each other included a very high level of distrust, and it was assumed that the threat from the other PCs was at least as important as the threat from the environment.

I've been in groups where the cleric charged for heals. Where the party broke into factions that actively opposed each other. Where major loot was a real inducement for PVP. Some of those games were fun. It is all about what the players want out of their game. But either way, it works much better if everyone is on board at the beginning.

[Slipperychicken]

wait, all your rogues don't keep eggshell grenades? theres no way in hell the fighter should catch the tricksy rogue.

I've played with few Rogues. They were, for the most part, anti-optimized kleptomaniacs who competently filled the "waste of space" party role. The main reason they survived was me metagaming for OOC reasons not to kill them for their blatant transgressions.

[Vertharrad]

wait, all your rogues don't keep eggshell grenades? theres no way in hell the fighter should catch the tricksy rogue.

The rogue is not the ninja remind them of this if they wanted a ninja pick up Complete Adventurer. And even if they do get away, their not coming back...good riddance to bad rubbish. This is why I don't let rogues be party treasure guy, unless I know the player will not steal from us. If your group can't rationally discuss chipping in for certain staples then what are you doing gaming with them? If your the thief why did you leave the sweet set up in your thieves guild just to poke the adventurers? When you mess with the bull you get the horns.

[Darius Kane]

The rogue is not the ninja
He can be.

[TaiLiu]

I've played with few Rogues. They were, for the most part, anti-optimized kleptomaniacs who competently filled the "waste of space" party role. The main reason they survived was me metagaming for OOC reasons not to kill them for their blatant transgressions.
An unfortunate experience for you, it seems. :smallfrown:

[navar100]

I have been fortunate enough to play with a player who as the rogue of the party was absolutely trustworthy, in and out of character. He'll pilfer from NPCs and eventually became the King of Thieves/benign Godfather, but to the party he was completely loyal. At one point it was necessary for him to hold onto party loot. The DM tempted him in selling it. He did not take the bait.

I was playing a cleric/sacred exorcist of a Justice deity. I eventually became Duke of the realm. I knew in character he was the King of Thieves. We got along fine. We were best friends. I knew no matter what my faith and ruling as Duke, there was going to be someone or group of someones who run thieves' guilds. They could not be eradicated. However, with my best bud in charge of the largest and most powerful guild, I knew that the citizens would be safe from the underworld. Crimes are going happen. The constabulary will arrest members of his guild. That's the "game", the situation not referring to D&D, but it would never become more serious than that. No slave trade. No murder. No muggings. In fact, by his request he asked that I use Detect Evil on all members of his guild. I wore a mask so I wouldn't be recognized and singled out the few who were so they can be dealt with. Not killed - just expelled from the guild or reasoned with depending on the person. He trusted me with his membership list. I returned that trust and did not have everyone arrested, letting the "game" play out as normal.

So yes, I can get along quite well with the rogue as long as the rogue player is not being a donkey cavity to the party.

[Slipperychicken]

An unfortunate experience for you, it seems. :smallfrown:

It's one of the reasons I try not to play OP characters anymore. Knowing that I can slaughter my buddies with nary a thought isn't very fun, and makes me feel like I have to go out of my way not to crush these ants who are the other PCs.

[Averis Vol]

I've played with few Rogues. They were, for the most part, anti-optimized kleptomaniacs who competently filled the "waste of space" party role. The main reason they survived was me metagaming for OOC reasons not to kill them for their blatant transgressions.

I feel for you man, my group isn't the best with rogues either. Regardless, I guess being a thief doesn't work unless you have someone badder than yourself to back you. And that only works if you can grease him up nice and good with presents......

[Averis Vol]

I have been fortunate enough to play with a player who as the rogue of the party was absolutely trustworthy, in and out of character. He'll pilfer from NPCs and eventually became the King of Thieves/benign Godfather, but to the party he was completely loyal. At one point it was necessary for him to hold onto party loot. The DM tempted him in selling it. He did not take the bait.

I was playing a cleric/sacred exorcist of a Justice deity. I eventually became Duke of the realm. I knew in character he was the King of Thieves. We got along fine. We were best friends. I knew no matter what my faith and ruling as Duke, there was going to be someone or group of someones who run thieves' guilds. They could not be eradicated. However, with my best bud in charge of the largest and most powerful guild, I knew that the citizens would be safe from the underworld. Crimes are going happen. The constabulary will arrest members of his guild. That's the "game", the situation not referring to D&D, but it would never become more serious than that. No slave trade. No murder. No muggings. In fact, by his request he asked that I use Detect Evil on all members of his guild. I wore a mask so I wouldn't be recognized and singled out the few who were so they can be dealt with. Not killed - just expelled from the guild or reasoned with depending on the person. He trusted me with his membership list. I returned that trust and did not have everyone arrested, letting the "game" play out as normal.

So yes, I can get along quite well with the rogue as long as the rogue player is not being a donkey cavity to the party.

Theres no doubt that a rogue can be the most loyal ally possible. But in light hearted confrontation allowed games (which is what this thread is all about) the rogue may need some ideas to keep himself safe and sound without the oafs finding out.

[Saph]

In a typical D&D game, the PCs are a small group of supernaturally talented combat experts who make their living by killing highly dangerous creatures and taking their stuff/getting rewarded for it.

As a result of this, and because they typically live in high-danger fantasy worlds where killing things often really is the best solution to a problem, PCs are generally much quicker to resort to lethal force than normal people.

Now, as a member of a PC group, it's worth bearing in mind that you're only a member of said group as long as everyone else agrees that you are. All it takes to stop being a member of that group is for everyone else to decide they don't like you anymore. And once that happens, well . . . you're just another creature in a world of creatures that the PCs frequently kill. One with much more loot than the average monster, too.

Of course, PCs aren't usually going to straight-up kill you for stealing. Usually. On the other hand, these are the same guys whom you depend on in life-and-death situations every single combat. How motivated do you want them to be about keeping you alive?

So the question whenever you're thinking of stealing from the party should be: "Is what I'm stealing worth more than the loyalty of the people I trust my life with?"

[Slipperychicken]

So the question whenever you're thinking of stealing from the party should be: "Is what I'm stealing worth more than the loyalty of the people I trust my life with?"

Not quite. You'd use a risk-reward analysis. In this case

If
(Chance of success)x(Result of success) - (Chance of failure)x(Result of failure) > (Status quo option),
Then it's worth doing. Otherwise, the status quo (the "don't steal" option) is preferable. If they're equal, then a rational person would be indifferent.

[Saph]

Not quite. You'd use a risk-reward analysis.

The point is more to get the would-be-thief to realise just how stupid it is to steal the stuff of the people who decide on a daily basis whether you get to live or not.

[Slipperychicken]

The point is more to get the would-be-thief to realise just how stupid it is to steal the stuff of the people who decide on a daily basis whether you get to live or not.

Yeah, it pretty much jacks the "penalty for failure" up to "your life and all worldly possessions", while an equal loot share is still the ludicrous sum it always was. Needless to say, that makes things heavily favor the non-thieving option.

[3WhiteFox3]

Yeah, it pretty much jacks the "penalty for failure" up to "your life and all worldly possessions", while an equal loot share is still the ludicrous sum it always was. Needless to say, that makes things heavily favor the non-thieving option.

I agree, most thieves will have more than enough wealth without having to resort to stealing from the people who you probably need to continue gaining that profit. After all, if you get kicked out of the group because you stole a few thousand, that's a potential loss of hundreds of thousands of profit from an extended journey with an adventuring group. It's simply smart to not steal.

Remember, your party is your life, livelihood and paycheck; you get kicked out (or killed) and your life becomes much harder. Most rogues should recognize this.

[tiercel]

Next: we start another "roleplaying vs rollplaying" thread.

Seriously, it's a question of gaming style. If you are stealing from the party (which includes skimming from the treasure because "you got there first" or "you're the party treasurer" or whatever), you are taking PvP action. If the players and DM are cool with PvP action, then you can all have fun.

But if you get caught doing PvP against your partymates, don't whine and cry if they find you out and PvP you right back. (Seriously, if you go around murdering bad guys for a living, turning yourself into a bad guy and thus cheesing off your partymates who have proven they are good at solving problems with murder is a really freaking bad career move.)

Some people tend to assume that D&D is co-op/PvE only, and if you're the only one playing PvP when when they think they are playing a different game, of course they are going to be steamed when they find out you're not playing by the same rules they are.

Do people not even talk with their fellow players or DM any more? Sheesh.

[Slipperychicken]

Do people not even talk with their fellow players or DM any more?
[Mind of the Thief player]

Warning your target only removes the element of surprise. They'll get locked into their comfortable "Co-Op" mindset.. and after a few sessions, those smug bastards will never see it coming!

[CraftyCactus]

As the rogue player, would you mind if everyone divvied 10% of your character's share every time? No, this would not practically happen; it's purely a mental exercise for the player. In some situations, the answer would be "yes", it doesn't matter much. In others, the player would feel that every copper piece is too freakin' important to let slide. Both answers are fine, just make sure you asked yourself that first.

Next, ask OOC'ly if your colleagues mind that you top off a bit from the loot every time.

No, don't actually do that, the answer is a guaranteed "no" unless everyone is swimming in gold. HOWEVER, think about your level of hesitation when you considered asking the question. If you felt uneasy at the mere thought of asking the question, better disband the idea entirely and stop reading. If, on the other hand, you wanted to ask out of courtesy, but hesitated because you doubted anyone would every say, "yes", there might still be hope.


The idea of "skimming the loot" is quite subjective. The reason? Your goal, as players, is to have fun. For some, playing alongside a wildcard of a character (often the rogue) is humorous, sometimes painful, but ultimately enjoyable. This is fun because the wildcard makes the game less predictable in more ways than one. Can she bypass the trap? Did he just take out the huge beast in one round in nothing but underwear? Is that really the amount of gold that was originally in the treasure chest? It's the life of high risk, high return... supposedly. (In the rogue's head, at least.) Everyone else puts up with this fellow because at the end of the day, that fellow carries skills that they value, whether they'll admit it or not. Sometimes, it's the class clown who just wants attention. He may sometimes do or say things that others don't appreciate, and there are consequences. In games, this translates to PC death or prison when caught doing underhanded things.

Going back to the mental exercises mentioned above: if the group draws the line of "entertainment" at in-character belongings, so be it. Please don't cross it, out of respect for the other players. I'm not sure if the rulebook explicitly covers this, but the win-condition is when everyone enjoys the experience. Having unhappy players is a quick way to lose. Many folks enjoy the materialistic aspect of the game (and they often play the rogue! :smallwink:). I know I do. If that 5 gp, no matter how insignificant, might be taken as a blow to other's fun, it doesn't make sense to take it. However, players sometimes are okay with this "petty theft" when the gains overcome their losses. In other words, when they get something out of it aside from a lighter wallet.

BoutsofInsanity brought up several great examples, and The Grue shared a bit of his brilliancy as well. Bouts has been advocating the idea of a mischievous rogue who likes to sometimes mess around with the loot, and "surprise gift" with others. On the receiving end, players unknowningly sacrifice choice-of-loot for some humor. Done once in awhile, I as a player wouldn't mind! However, as I'd like to stress, this is truly subjective. Due to the nature of this "gifting", it's impractical to ask players whether or not it's okay to do such a thing. Part of the fun is the surprise, after all! Thus, the player of the rogue has to judge how such actions would be taken by others, and must perform such thefts with the right mental attitude. Pilfering out of pure greed never ends well; entertainment should be included in the agenda.

Since The Grue is such a humble fellow, he didn't make that big of a deal out of the creative theft that he pulled off, so I'll bring up the awesomeness again:


I recently played a Pathfinder campaign as the party Rogue, where we spent most of our time in the immediate area of the city of Katheer. With DM permission I took the Leadership feat and started setting up a Thieves' Guild to fill a previously empty niche in the city's economy. But of course, my character was an unknown, and without a reputation to fall back on might be seen to be easy pickings for another entrepreneurial individual to muscle him out. On the other hand, having a reputation as a renowned thief has obvious and inconvenient consequences in everyday dealings in the city.

So I took a page from Remington Steele and spent levels 4-7 creating a folk tale, the legend of a master thief from the great city of Absolom. I spent party downtime in taverns rolling Diplomacy and Perform checks spreading tales of his exploits and deeds, careful to make them sound just a little bit fantastical or implausible - tales that were too mundane, too believable would be too easily dismissed as an attempt at misdirection, was my thinking. Anyway it seemed to pay off; level 7 rolled around, and during party downtime my rogue assumed the mantle of this master thief and began building his organization.

I had previously pitched to the party the idea of a guild of thieves as a thing I wanted to do, and convinced them to chip in for startup costs on the basis that the guild assets could be used for the benefit of the party, mainly in information-gathering roles, and that they'd receive dividends from the guild's activities since they were essentially investors. This was unavoidable as my character did not personally have the funds to set up the operation on his own.

Anyway I announced to them that my rogue had been approached by a legendary master thief from Absolom looking to expand his operation, and that my organization would benefit from his reputation. Of course, the master thief required a slice of the guild's profits, say a clean 10-15% off the top. When I brought this up, no one batted an eyelash. :smallcool:

You see that? The player did not ask before taking because that ruins the fun, and is conceptually plain stupid. However, he made sure to thoroughly enrich the game, i.e. trade "fun" for gold. This was well thought out--four levels and a feat of effort to con the party. Once again, I wouldn't mind as a player if I found out OOC'ly that I had been cheated so! I would have thought the game more wholesome if the such ruses could occur. That's just me, however, and ultimately it's a subjective call.



TL;DR: if you're gonna steal, make sure it's worth your (and others') while. On top of that, the rule of fun should never be broken. Otherwise, why bother to play?

[Gnaeus]

TL;DR: if you're gonna steal, make sure it's worth your (and others') while. On top of that, the rule of fun should never be broken. Otherwise, why bother to play?

Are you a psychic? No, really, can you see the future, or read other people's minds?

If the answer is NO, then how are you going to make sure that what you are doing is "fun" for them, and not infuriating. You know, for certain, just from reading this thread, that some people take that kind of thing very personally. I might too, depending on the culture of the game (i.e. if it was understood to be a cooperative team game, I would be angry). It changes the metagame foundations of the game in a very important way.

If it were a more PVP tolerant game, I would be totally cool with it OOC, but again, the 10% the rogue skims off the top might not pay for the 10,000 gp I charged him to neutralize that poison from the trap or remove the mummy rot.

[CraftyCactus]

Yup, you're not alone when it comes to people who wouldn't take it lightly. That's cool. Some people are, though, and although you can never tell for certain, it's often not too hard to guess. (Skimming through this thread, the reactions seem to have either been A) support of the idea to some extent, or B) explosive rejection and horror at the loss of gp.) This is the kind of thing you can get away in a setting among friends, depending on who they are, and the circumstances that made the group decide to start up a game--probably not something to try the first time you come across loot in PbP.

[navar100]

Yup, you're not alone when it comes to people who wouldn't take it lightly. That's cool. Some people are, though, and although you can never tell for certain, it's often not too hard to guess. (Skimming through this thread, the reactions seem to have either been A) support of the idea to some extent, or B) explosive rejection and horror at the loss of gp.) This is the kind of thing you can get away in a setting among friends, depending on who they are, and the circumstances that made the group decide to start up a game--probably not something to try the first time you come across loot in PbP.

It's not the loss of gp that's the problem; it's the lack of trust and respect.

[Gnaeus]

It's not the loss of gp that's the problem; it's the lack of trust and respect.

And the change from a group focused on team action to an every man for himself mentality. Why does the tier 1 cast a team buff instead of taking all the glory for himself. Because he cares (in a metagame sense) about the enjoyment of the other players. If the other player turns around and steals from you, why would you do that again, ever? By stealing from his team, the Rogue has said, "I care more about my bottom line than about my team", and the rogue's player has said that he cares more about his fun than the fun of the other players. Even if it is only 1 gp, (especially if it is only 1 gp) he is swinging around his ego and trying to show that he CAN take from them if he wants. If another player (out of game) is trying to one-up me, even if it is my best friend, its on.

[Dresler]

Sort of sad to see these reactions. We constantly have some people trying to get away with thing openly. I mean as long as people make their checks then they are good to go. Some great excuses are made when caught. Dunno how many sense motive or spot or listen checks I've rolled to officially hear or see or whatever.

Makes things a blast honestly. Nobody ever does anything real majors though. Who cares the guys whose character has a gambling problem keeps some extra money aside for an entertaining gambling session later.

You had the ability to make ur checks to check on them. I did feel bad when I got one of our party members killed when I was a doppelgänger. I was supposed to try and finally got the chance when it wasn't suspicious. Then a few weeks later found out someone else in our party was also one and that was why he'd been missing so much and doing such dumb stuff lol.

I guess in some of your minds I shouldn't have tried to get someone killed.

Be a little more light hearted.

[Slipperychicken]

Be a little more light hearted.

Oh no. Someone on the internet prefers to do something differently than you. Quick, make a 7-page thread arguing about it.

[Sylthia]

Sort of sad to see these reactions. We constantly have some people trying to get away with thing openly. I mean as long as people make their checks then they are good to go. Some great excuses are made when caught. Dunno how many sense motive or spot or listen checks I've rolled to officially hear or see or whatever.

Makes things a blast honestly. Nobody ever does anything real majors though. Who cares the guys whose character has a gambling problem keeps some extra money aside for an entertaining gambling session later.

You had the ability to make ur checks to check on them. I did feel bad when I got one of our party members killed when I was a doppelgänger. I was supposed to try and finally got the chance when it wasn't suspicious. Then a few weeks later found out someone else in our party was also one and that was why he'd been missing so much and doing such dumb stuff lol.

I guess in some of your minds I shouldn't have tried to get someone killed.

Be a little more light hearted.

You purposely got one of your party members killed? Unless the game is supposed to be PvP, that's about the best way to make a group fall apart.

[SciChronic]

i really don't get how people have so many issues with having a thief in their game. You are intentionally limiting the creativity of their characters.

I was in a campaign where we had a ninja who worshiped an evil god and would sacrifice people with a sacrificial dagger in that god's name. One session, during a time when we were all resting, the thief sneaked away, found a chest, disabled the magic trap on it, stole the money and a wand from it, and we all failed our listen checks. after we woke up it was business as usual, and the thief "found" a chest as we explored. Later in the campaign said ninja incapacitated me and dragged me off into a dark ally and killed me.

was i sad that my character died? yeah, as anyone would, but i wasn't being a child who gets angry when something doesn't go their way and feels that every party should be happy-go-lucky and best friends.

In D&D many parties are only together because pf circumstance, and sometimes that includes people who will cheat and deceive their own party. it's called a party dynamic for a reason, not party hand-holding-let's-frolick-through-fields-of-flowers-together-cause-we're-just-best-friends.

people come from different backgrounds and may not always agree with each other.

[Sylthia]

This seems to have escalated. I'd never play in a campaign where I have to worry about my party members killing my character.

[TuggyNE]

You purposely got one of your party members killed? Unless the game is supposed to be PvP, that's about the best way to make a group fall apart.

From the mention of being a doppelgänger, I suspect what they meant was the DM had them play the doppelgänger that had infiltrated their party in the guise of their former character.

[Augmental]

I was in a campaign where we had a ninja who worshiped an evil god and would sacrifice people with a sacrificial dagger in that god's name. One session, during a time when we were all resting, the thief sneaked away, found a chest, disabled the magic trap on it, stole the money and a wand from it, and we all failed our listen checks. after we woke up it was business as usual, and the thief "found" a chest as we explored. Later in the campaign said ninja incapacitated me and dragged me off into a dark ally and killed me.

Was this in an evil campaign, or was the rest of the party mostly good or at least neutral?

[navar100]

From the mention of being a doppelgänger, I suspect what they meant was the DM had them play the doppelgänger that had infiltrated their party in the guise of their former character.

It's bad enough when the DM enables donkey cavity behavior "because he's roleplaying" or doesn't want to get involved. It's even worse when he instigates it. I don't play Paranoia for a reason. There's no recourse to this other than I just quit the game.

[CraftyCactus]

It's not the loss of gp that's the problem; it's the lack of trust and respect.

Apparently, they're the same thing to you. Either it is acceptable to open the gold-snagging can of worms, or it isn't. (Heck, ever played Go Fish?) If you fall in the category of those who would prefer avoid that dimension of party dynamics, that's fine! There's nothing wrong with that. What I don't understand is why you'd go out of your way to say, "No! It's always a bad idea, even in others' games, and it simply cannot be done!" My point is that in-game thievery is sometimes acceptable, not universally acceptable.

I'm curious to hear the rebuttal. :smallamused:

[joca4christ]

I, for one, love this guide. It's clever. Enables one to be sneaky with style and class. Kudos, OP.

For what it's worth, I would love for a chance to play a rogue this way. I would respect it if my fellow gamers wouldn't like it, though. In fact, I was prepping just such PC for a campaign, and hinted that I may utilize a "finders fee" and one of my buds was opposed, so I nixed it.

Now, if I want to play a rogue and want to earn some extra gp, I just use my Sleight of Hand to juggle all the while pretending I'm a traveling performer.

Incidentally, would LOVE to run a beguiler. What's the thoughts of lying to your party members?

[Sylthia]

I, for one, love this guide. It's clever. Enables one to be sneaky with style and class. Kudos, OP.

For what it's worth, I would love for a chance to play a rogue this way. I would respect it if my fellow gamers wouldn't like it, though. In fact, I was prepping just such PC for a campaign, and hinted that I may utilize a "finders fee" and one of my buds was opposed, so I nixed it.

Now, if I want to play a rogue and want to earn some extra gp, I just use my Sleight of Hand to juggle all the while pretending I'm a traveling performer.

Incidentally, would LOVE to run a beguiler. What's the thoughts of lying to your party members?

I played a rogue a few months ago who ran a crooked shell game and picked up some extra gold on the side, but I never cheated the party.

Do you mean lying to other characters IC or OOC?

[joca4christ]

Lying IC, for sure. Let's not be dishonest OOC.

[Sylthia]

Lying IC, for sure. Let's not be dishonest OOC.

As long as you are helping the party, lie away.

The rogue I mentioned, he passed himself off as a juggler and an honest traveling performer. In fact, most rogues probably would try to pass themselves off as something else.

[CraftyCactus]

While we're on the topic, I wonder how a dastardly spellcaster as a PC might be perceived: one who manipulates the minds of others in the party "for teh lulz". For example:

"Groog. Go lick the frozen pole."
"I don't wanna!"
(Bluff) "It'll taste like candy, I promise!"

...

(Groog went and set off a dozen traps. Spellcaster heals Groog after all the damage is done.)

[Sylthia]

While we're on the topic, I wonder how a dastardly spellcaster as a PC might be perceived: one who manipulates the minds of others in the party "for teh lulz". For example:

"Groog. Go lick the frozen pole."
"I don't wanna!"
(Bluff) "It'll taste like candy, I promise!"

...

(Groog went and set off a dozen traps. Spellcaster heals Groog after all the damage is done.)

I follow the "No harm, no foul" rule for messing with teammates. Deciding what is harm is where there is wiggle room.

[joca4christ]

Love it! If I were to play a beguiler, I think I'd try to pass myself off as a bard. Also, would love to play a rogue who does the same. Even done to the carrying a lute or something around. Then, getting down into a dungeon, and saying, "Eh guys, think I may...misrepresented my skill set some what."

[CraftyCactus]

Love it! If I were to play a beguiler, I think I'd try to pass myself off as a bard. Also, would love to play a rogue who does the same. Even done to the carrying a lute or something around. Then, getting down into a dungeon, and saying, "Eh guys, think I may...misrepresented my skill set some what."

You'll live, as long as your next words aren't, "I'm actually a monk."

Just kidding, although I did try that with a bard, once. It was a pvp labyrinth-style campaign, and I built the character around the idea of mimicking the guards, with Precocious Apprentice and Scribe Scroll to get lots of Alter Self early on. It was glorious.

[SciChronic]

Was this in an evil campaign, or was the rest of the party mostly good or at least neutral?

it was mostly a good campaign though I was a properly role played CN

[Gnaeus]

This seems to have escalated. I'd never play in a campaign where I have to worry about my party members killing my character.

Then you should never play in a campaign where you steal from party members. Easy as that.

[Talderas]

I picture it like this... This is what goes through the thief's mind as he skims from the top.
" O.k. five hundred gold finders fee, I am running low on Thunder Stones, and I could use some more trap materials. Oh, a Holy Avenger Sword, hmm, better keep that safe till I can give it to the Paladin. Oh boy a monocle, I wonder if I can swap that with the Wizards, a gift for saving my bacon from that Bugbear. A belt of GIANT STRENGTH, oh goodness, we can make some money off of this bad puppy. Me and the Barbarian are gonna run a scam, it will be great! I should trick him first, to see if I can do it of course, not for my own amusement, never! Etc..."

This thread has inspired me to slightly alter the mentality of the rogue I'm playing in an upcoming game....

We're going to have a guild house and apparently pay property taxes.... I am seriously considering having my rogue skim money off the treasury in order to fund side operations. I intend to use the side operations to cover the property taxes the guild would need to pay, while returning all I skimmed from the treasury (+enough for taxes + some extra as interest) while keeping a little from the side business for myself. I figure that given my skill set, my character is the most likely to be keeping track of the books (unless we hire an NPC) so it makes it pretty easy. With appraising items high or low, I can use that to cook the books to enable the side businesses. Whether the DM is going to go along with it is a whole plan is a different story. I can't believe I'm going to be in a D&D game where I'm motivated to commit tax evasion.

Will I tell the players I'm doing this? Probably. Will they care? Maybe, but given the nature of what my character will be doing (highly illegal activity) why would would she tell more people? That's just more people to get in the way of what she's doing to advance the guild. More people that make it more likely to get caught. If she's caught? I'll just have her flirt her way out of it.... with a whip.

[Sylthia]

Then you should never play in a campaign where you steal from party members. Easy as that.

As my previous posts state, I never do steal from the party. I was reference unprovoked murder while my PC sleeps.

[Eldonauran]

As my previous posts state, I never do steal from the party. I was reference unprovoked murder while my PC sleeps.

Now I am confused. Why would the party members murder you unprovoked? I thought all the hostile reactions originated when the thief stole from the party? If the thief does not steal from the party, then no murder should be expected while the character sleeps.

Thief steals from party -> Party members react to that theft and betrayal of their trust. Reactions vary from a stern warning, to ejection from the group and to a physical retaliation, whether a severe beating or intenional slaying.

Thief doesn't steal from party -> Everyone is happy?

[SciChronic]

Now I am confused. Why would the party members murder you unprovoked? I thought all the hostile reactions originated when the thief stole from the party? If the thief does not steal from the party, then no murder should be expected while the character sleeps.

Thief steals from party -> Party members react to that theft and betrayal of their trust. Reactions vary from a stern warning, to ejection from the group and to a physical retaliation, whether a severe beating or intenional slaying.

Thief doesn't steal from party -> Everyone is happy?

the issue is that the PCs wouldn't KNOW that the thief has stolen from them, and so since OOC they know, they bring it IC and just kill them thief without their PCs knowing why, aka unprovoked murder

[Vertharrad]

I agree...if the rogue hasn't "acquired" anything from the party(unless something else untoward occurred) then there should be no killing of the rogue in question. I'm also not advocating using OOC knowledge, there has been many things gotten over on our parties in our games because it's OOC knowledge.
My stance is if your stealing from others and we don't find out it's fine(granted we don't get negatively affected by your stealing from other people). If you take from the party with no intention of giving back what you took(this leaves out your example Talderas)...then it's on; your either going to be kicked from the party or have justice applied in some way, form, or fassion.
Remember that saying - Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. The Golden Rule.
In other words...turn about is fair play.
I'm already a adequately professional paranoid, if I wanted to get worse I'd play Paranoia.

[Big Fau]

My personal favorite way this was handled was one of my players set aside a small chunk of his starting gold (about 10gp, IIRC), then said that he'd be "stealing" that from the party without their knowledge. He asked me to track how much each party member "had", and when the reserve ran low some of his cut of the treasure went into it. He'd actually roll the Sleight of Hand checks, but the resulting stolen goods came from his "pocket".

In order to keep up the charade, I'd intentionally hide some of the treasure results. If I randomly rolled a Wand of Cure Light Wounds with 20 charges on the MiC's treasure chart, I'd actually split it into 2 wands with 10 charges each. One would go the party in general, and the other would be for the Rogue's player to pickpocket. I did this with dozens of magic items, secretly writing them into the players' character sheets between sessions and telling the Rogue via email who had what. It took them about 12 sessions to figure it out, usually because he always disguised his Sleight of Hand check as another roll.

If I ever allow Kender, that's how I'm going to run their kleptomania.

[Eldonauran]

the issue is that the PCs wouldn't KNOW that the thief has stolen from them, and so since OOC they know, they bring it IC and just kill them thief without their PCs knowing why, aka unprovoked murder

Ah. I can see that being a problem. I completely discounted that from being an issue since the majority of players I've come across are apt at keeping OOC knowledge from influencing IC actions.

While stealing from the party might irk me as a player (:smallmad:), if my character has no direct knowledge of it, I see no justifiable reason to off the thief. They will get suspicious if the thief starts flaunting extra wealth, above and beyond what the others have. That is normal, reactive behavior.

I don't even fault the player of the thief for the character's IC actions. If I was playing a Paladin, I would expect the same kind of tolerance from the other players. What I do IC is not reflective of OOC, and vis-versa. I am currently in a game with a 'thief' character (Tiefling Rogue) that is pretty sneaky and has sticky fingers. I suspect he is skimming from the party loot, as he has no issues keeping track of the spoils of battle, but my character has no clue. That character probably wouldn't even care if the rogue took a little extra (True Neutral, minor noble, has little care for money except when it is all gone. Sorcerer.). While I am annoyed at the idea and would be if I found out for sure OOC, it wouldn't change my attitude towards the rogue's player. I think that guy is brilliant. My character would still retaliate against the rogue character if he found out. Stern warning, probably a warning shot with a fireball (that the rgoue could save against) the second time and removal of the rogue from the party a third time (peacefully if possible, violently if not). Trust is important for parties of a true neutral alignment (and we all are in this group).

[PersonMan]

Now I am confused.

He's referring to this:


Later in the campaign said ninja incapacitated me and dragged me off into a dark ally and killed me.


This seems to have escalated. I'd never play in a campaign where I have to worry about my party members killing my character.

EDIT: Also, Sci, the "people who don't like my style of play are whiny little kids" [paraphrased] is not the best way to present your argument.

[Gnaeus]

Ah. I can see that being a problem. I completely discounted that from being an issue since the majority of players I've come across are apt at keeping OOC knowledge from influencing IC actions.

While stealing from the party might irk me as a player (:smallmad:), if my character has no direct knowledge of it, I see no justifiable reason to off the thief. They will get suspicious if the thief starts flaunting extra wealth, above and beyond what the others have. That is normal, reactive behavior.

I don't even fault the player of the thief for the character's IC actions. If I was playing a Paladin, I would expect the same kind of tolerance from the other players. What I do IC is not reflective of OOC, and vis-versa.

I agree, if you do not know of the thief's actions IC, he should not be killed IC.

Problem is, in a very large number of games, responsible players use OOC information to guide their IC actions in a responsible way. That can mean things like picking team buffs instead of hog the glory spells, or crafting magic items for the weaker members of the party based on the OOC desire that everyone have fun at the table, etc.

However, if another player steals from me, I am going to (at the very least) assume that he thinks his character is playing in the big leagues. That means magic items I make for him will be sold to him at close to market value. It means that I won't pick buff spells for him based on OOC considerations, but only if I think that it is actually my most effective option for that combat. When he chooses to make his IC considerations paramount over metagame factors like party cohesion, he would be a hypocrite not to expect others to do the same.

[SciChronic]

He's referring to this:





EDIT: Also, Sci, the "people who don't like my style of play are whiny little kids" [paraphrased] is not the best way to present your argument.

Its not that they don't like your style of play, its that they can't accept anything that isnt the same as theirs. People are different, have varying backgrounds, drives, morals, and ideals. D&D can simulate that through the party dynamic. When people at your table are getting all fussy and want to kill the thief when the party has to known reason to, but OOC they know, its because they essentially want the party to be carbon copies of themselves in different outfits.

If you can't handle playing a game with people, meaning the good AND bad that comes with it, don't play D&D.


Problem is, in a very large number of games, responsible players use OOC information to guide their IC actions in a responsible way. That can mean things like picking team buffs instead of hog the glory spells, or crafting magic items for the weaker members of the party based on the OOC desire that everyone have fun at the table, etc.

However, if another player steals from me, I am going to (at the very least) assume that he thinks his character is playing in the big leagues. That means magic items I make for him will be sold to him at close to market value. It means that I won't pick buff spells for him based on OOC considerations, but only if I think that it is actually my most effective option for that combat. When he chooses to make his IC considerations paramount over metagame factors like party cohesion, he would be a hypocrite not to expect others to do the same.
I concede that it can be very difficult to separate OOC knowledge with IC knowledge, but my general rule is that i make all information immediately fuzzy to my character. while i personally know you need fire or acid to kill a troll, my char would know "trolls can't die like normal mortals, i remember a tale at a bar about how an adventurer had to use some unconventional method to kill it." and unless i can make the required knowledge check to pinpoint a weakness, I would intentionally throw out various damage types and talk to DM to see if any of them seem like they have a greater effect or not.

concerning your automatic assumption that a person is stealing should require sense motive checks

maybe i'm just better at assuming the role of my character than others, and separating IC desires with OOC. Compartmentalization people!

[Eldonauran]

Problem is, in a very large number of games, responsible players use OOC information to guide their IC actions in a responsible way. That can mean things like picking team buffs instead of hog the glory spells, or crafting magic items for the weaker members of the party based on the OOC desire that everyone have fun at the table, etc.

Ah, well. I can say that I don't play that way. :smallconfused:

I am somewhat pleased that I avoid many of these issues that plague others.

[Gnaeus]

I concede that it can be very difficult to separate OOC knowledge with IC knowledge, but my general rule is that i make all information immediately fuzzy to my character. while i personally know you need fire or acid to kill a troll, my char would know "trolls can't die like normal mortals, i remember a tale at a bar about how an adventurer had to use some unconventional method to kill it." and unless i can make the required knowledge check to pinpoint a weakness, I would intentionally throw out various damage types and talk to DM to see if any of them seem like they have a greater effect or not.

concerning your automatic assumption that a person is stealing should require sense motive checks

maybe i'm just better at assuming the role of my character than others, and separating IC desires with OOC. Compartmentalization people!

I don't think you understood my point.

OOC, I have a desire that everyone have fun at the table. OOC, I will guide my character's IC actions to that end. That is metagaming (or cheating if you will), for the purpose of helping game play. For example, I like playing Druids. I just like them. I know Druids are OP, so I take IC action for the OOC purpose of not stealing other people's playtime. This usually involves taking crafting feats and crafting gear for them at cost, bumping up buff spells in my memorization priority, etc, so that they can have fun.

If your rogue character steals from my character, I don't need a sense motive to stop any metagaming that I would otherwise be doing for your benefit. I know very well what book Venomfire is in, and if I am not using it, it is because I want to play nice with others. All I have to do is decide IC that buffing my pet and myself makes more sense than buffing you.

If the only action I take is to not be nicer to your character than IC knowledge would dictate, you have already probably screwed your rogue far beyond any gold value you may have taken. And if the DM has to make tougher encounters because I am moving my character up the OP chain, and your character dies as a result, shame.

[Eldonauran]

For example, I like playing Druids. I just like them. I know Druids are OP, so I take IC action for the OOC purpose of not stealing other people's playtime. This usually involves taking crafting feats and crafting gear for them at cost, bumping up buff spells in my memorization priority, etc, so that they can have fun.

Aside from your decision to have your druid forgo more power abilities at his/her disposal, what about that is metagaming? In a vivid and dynamic world, what spellcaster doesn't take crafting feats? I know a few exceptions exist though my point is, your character is a living, breathing person in all but flesh. They will attempt to secure a stable lifestyle (again exceptions) and seek to fortify their weaknesses, while at the same time, assisting the others in their group in so that they have the best chance at survival.

The character might stop adventuring at any given moment and, aside from a few character concepts, most aren't driven for increased power over everything else. Adventuring is a dangerous, and often fatal, lifestyle for the NPCs in the world (PCs generally do better, because we control them) and many decide to stop gambling with their lives before luck catches up with them.

I have retired a few characters early because they had no true motivation to continue to risk their lives. They broke ways amicably with the party, settled down (relatively) and I rolled up a new character.

[Gnaeus]

Aside from your decision to have your druid forgo more power abilities at his/her disposal, what about that is metagaming? In a vivid and dynamic world, what spellcaster doesn't take crafting feats?

Oh, I'll still have the crafting feat. I'll just use it for myself and my pet first. And if I do have time to craft for Mr. Rogue, I'll charge him. I mean, IRL if my buddy asked me to take a week off my job to spend 8 hour days making something for him, I would charge him for it. And if I had to permanently invest some of my lifeforce into it, I'd probably charge him quite a bit. Why shouldn't my character take the same attitude?

By contrast, in my current game, my tier one caster looks at his party members, decides what gear they need, makes it, gives it to them, and then tells them that they can pay him back nothing, or what it cost him, or whatever they think is fair. I can justify it IC, but it is really all for OOC reasons.

[PersonMan]

Ah, well. I can say that I don't play that way. :smallconfused:

I am somewhat pleased that I avoid many of these issues that plague others.

Did you quote the wrong thing? I don't see how "I don't play that way; I avoid many of these issues that plague others" fits with "many people do things to help make sure everyone is having fun".


Its not that they don't like your style of play, its that they can't accept anything that isnt the same as theirs. People are different, have varying backgrounds, drives, morals, and ideals. D&D can simulate that through the party dynamic. When people at your table are getting all fussy and want to kill the thief when the party has to known reason to, but OOC they know, its because they essentially want the party to be carbon copies of themselves in different outfits.

If you can't handle playing a game with people, meaning the good AND bad that comes with it, don't play D&D.

I'm sure there's a name for this - false dichotomy, or similar.

Point A: Group X reacts negatively to suddenly-appearing, unannounced PvP.
Point B: PvP and PvE are two different playstyles.

Conclusion C: Group X cannot handle other playstyles and wants to play carbon copies.

A and B do not make C - in this case, I'd say the "sudden, unexpected PvP" rather than the "sudden, unexpected PvP" is the problem. I, for example, game with an RL group that doesn't do PvP - if someone suddenly killed my character without warning, OOC or IC, without me able to do much against it...I'd be upset. Especially because my characters are a significant investment for me, so I'd often be losing 10+ hours of character construction work + all of the in-game character developlment.

So, according to you I shouldn't play DnD.

I play quite a bit of PbP and have seen all sorts of cool party dynamics and interactions - all without "by the way I killed you in your sleep, roll a new character" or similar levels on conflict. According to you, all these different characters I've played and played with are "carbon copies", from the six-armed insect with personal problems related to the reaction of normal people to his appearance in the past, to the battle-loving healer who can't eat tomatoes because of their role in her torture at the hands of her enemies, to the desert sand-wielding mystic warrior who simultaneously despises and seeks to protect the "weak people" of the cities. Somehow, I disagree.

How about an example:

You and some others are playing soccer/football. It's not a super-intense game, it's all about fun. There's not much physical contact involved - obviously, things happen, but nobody's tackled or similar.

Suddenly, someone plows into you from the side to get the ball, you fall over. They're bigger than you are and, in their experience, such roughhousing is normal for the game.

If you're upset - at all - you shouldn't be playing soccer.

Should he have asked about how you all play the game? Should you have mentioned to him earlier that you and the others play a less hands-on form of soccer?

According to your logic, no. You're just not ready to play soccer. With anyone.

Isn't it a better idea to focus on communication, so we have a win-win situation, or at least one where I can say "ah, this is a PvP game, no thanks, not really my thing" rather than discovering that fact when I suddenly get killed without a chance to defend myself after spending months developing my character?

Is it a better idea to just say "no, don't play DnD"?

[Sylthia]

If you are hoping to play your rogue as a thief, talk to your DM for more thieving opportunities. It helps to know what the players are looking for as a DM.

[Eldonauran]

Did you quote the wrong thing? I don't see how "I don't play that way; I avoid many of these issues that plague others" fits with "many people do things to help make sure everyone is having fun".

No, I quoted that intentionally. What I meant to get across is that a lot of issues and misunderstandings that I've seen on these boards can be directly, or indirectly, linked to (ab)using OOC knowledge or motivations to direct IC gameplay.

I simply do not allow my OOC knowledge to affect my character's decisions or motivations. As a player, I know that something he is about to do is stupid, or isn't going to turn out well, and often times it causes me to hesitate. Never-the-less, the character ends up doing what the character wants to do.

Perhaps I have a different mindset when I approach roleplaying in D&D enviroments. I enjoy playing the character. Reacting as the character would. Pretending to be in his footsteps. I am always having fun when I am roleplaying. Whatever happens to the character, happens to the character. My fun is never impacted if the character's goals are demolished, if he had to step back into the shadows to give another character more of the spotlight or if he has little ability to aid in a certain battle. If my character dies and can't be brought back, I mourn for that character in my own way and move on to the next person I get to breathe life into.

I suppose I have been blessed with a like-minded group. We have alignment 'squabbles' now and then, though never any clear winner. (I usually win because they give up halfway through any good progress can be made. I don't say anything about it though. I just smile and nod.) I understand people have different ways of having fun. This is mine and it has nearly NONE of the issues that I have seen cripple other groups.

[SciChronic]

Did you quote the wrong thing? I don't see how "I don't play that way; I avoid many of these issues that plague others" fits with "many people do things to help make sure everyone is having fun".



I'm sure there's a name for this - false dichotomy, or similar.

Point A: Group X reacts negatively to suddenly-appearing, unannounced PvP.
Point B: PvP and PvE are two different playstyles.

Conclusion C: Group X cannot handle other playstyles and wants to play carbon copies.

A and B do not make C - in this case, I'd say the "sudden, unexpected PvP" rather than the "sudden, unexpected PvP" is the problem. I, for example, game with an RL group that doesn't do PvP - if someone suddenly killed my character without warning, OOC or IC, without me able to do much against it...I'd be upset. Especially because my characters are a significant investment for me, so I'd often be losing 10+ hours of character construction work + all of the in-game character developlment.

So, according to you I shouldn't play DnD.

I play quite a bit of PbP and have seen all sorts of cool party dynamics and interactions - all without "by the way I killed you in your sleep, roll a new character" or similar levels on conflict. According to you, all these different characters I've played and played with are "carbon copies", from the six-armed insect with personal problems related to the reaction of normal people to his appearance in the past, to the battle-loving healer who can't eat tomatoes because of their role in her torture at the hands of her enemies, to the desert sand-wielding mystic warrior who simultaneously despises and seeks to protect the "weak people" of the cities. Somehow, I disagree.

How about an example:

You and some others are playing soccer/football. It's not a super-intense game, it's all about fun. There's not much physical contact involved - obviously, things happen, but nobody's tackled or similar.

Suddenly, someone plows into you from the side to get the ball, you fall over. They're bigger than you are and, in their experience, such roughhousing is normal for the game.

If you're upset - at all - you shouldn't be playing soccer.

Should he have asked about how you all play the game? Should you have mentioned to him earlier that you and the others play a less hands-on form of soccer?

According to your logic, no. You're just not ready to play soccer. With anyone.

Isn't it a better idea to focus on communication, so we have a win-win situation, or at least one where I can say "ah, this is a PvP game, no thanks, not really my thing" rather than discovering that fact when I suddenly get killed without a chance to defend myself after spending months developing my character?

Is it a better idea to just say "no, don't play DnD"?

In the case where the ninja killed off my character, i knew full well that it would happen at some point, he would kill or i would kill him when he tried to kill me. The entire table realized this when the ninja would kill off random NPCs every few days. The moment we left town, the party was the only targets, but my character had no idea that it would happen, he wasn't a witness to the murders, and the ninja didn't just blab about it to the party, but it happened and my character died because i failed my roles. I accepted that my character was now dead, i liked my twf ranger a lot, but i roled up a new character. Funny thing is, he managed to kill everyone one in the party at least once, and then died in combat.

The issue isnt the rogue-like character suddenly killing PCs, its the other PCs killing the rogue for reasons only know OOC.

Imagine an elementary school cafeteria. you're in line for food, and you see that they have pudding cups today, and you really feel that pudding sounds good at the time. The person in front of you also likes pudding, and overhears you talking with your friends behind you that you like pudding too, but he happens to take the last one. You are now dissatisfied since you couldn't eat pudding, and at recess you find the kid that got the pudding cup and start kicking sand in his face. Over a pudding cup.

its petty and childish, thus the school analogy.

Hell, if you follow the OP's guide, you're only shaving off the top. Its not like hes taking half of all the magic look for himself. Maybe he's just palming an extra healing potion or two because he had to use a lot last fight. But hell no, he's not being fair to the PCs, and thus instantly deserves divine judgement even though the PCs would have no idea why. As if the gods are going to punish everyone if they aren't polite and fair with everyone in existence like kindergarten teachers.

[Sylthia]

In the case where the ninja killed off my character, i knew full well that it would happen at some point, he would kill or i would kill him when he tried to kill me. The entire table realized this when the ninja would kill off random NPCs every few days. The moment we left town, the party was the only targets, but my character had no idea that it would happen, he wasn't a witness to the murders, and the ninja didn't just blab about it to the party, but it happened and my character died because i failed my roles. I accepted that my character was now dead, i liked my twf ranger a lot, but i roled up a new character. Funny thing is, he managed to kill everyone one in the party at least once, and then died in combat.

The issue isnt the rogue-like character suddenly killing PCs, its the other PCs killing the rogue for reasons only know OOC.

Imagine an elementary school cafeteria. you're in line for food, and you see that they have pudding cups today, and you really feel that pudding sounds good at the time. The person in front of you also likes pudding, and overhears you talking with your friends behind you that you like pudding too, but he happens to take the last one. You are now dissatisfied since you couldn't eat pudding, and at recess you find the kid that got the pudding cup and start kicking sand in his face. Over a pudding cup.

its petty and childish, thus the school analogy.

Hell, if you follow the OP's guide, you're only shaving off the top. Its not like hes taking half of all the magic look for himself. Maybe he's just palming an extra healing potion or two because he had to use a lot last fight. But hell no, he's not being fair to the PCs, and thus instantly deserves divine judgement even though the PCs would have no idea why. As if the gods are going to punish everyone if they aren't polite and fair with everyone in existence like kindergarten teachers.

With all due respect, wouldn't going around killing other PCs be bully behavior? That could be a quick way to derail a campaign.

[Gnaeus]

No, I quoted that intentionally. What I meant to get across is that a lot of issues and misunderstandings that I've seen on these boards can be directly, or indirectly, linked to (ab)using OOC knowledge or motivations to direct IC gameplay.

This is true. OTOH, many of the other issues can be linked to NOT using OOC motivations to direct IC gameplay. It works both ways.



I simply do not allow my OOC knowledge to affect my character's decisions or motivations.

Some groups work that way, (as PersonMan so excellently put it).



Perhaps I have a different mindset when I approach roleplaying in D&D enviroments. I enjoy playing the character. Reacting as the character would. Pretending to be in his footsteps. I am always having fun when I am roleplaying. Whatever happens to the character, happens to the character. My fun is never impacted if the character's goals are demolished, if he had to step back into the shadows to give another character more of the spotlight or if he has little ability to aid in a certain battle.

Step back a moment, Mr. Drama Major. Paying attention to the metagame does not mean that someone does not enjoy playing the character or pretending to be in his footsteps. If you are sitting in a tavern at beginning of a game and the other PCs all decide to go on a quest and your character thinks they look wierd and decides not to go, it isn't helping the game. Sure, it might be legit IC, but then you never get to play your character, because your team just left you before you ever did anything but RP drinking a beer. If that little OOC voice just makes your character decide to go along with them IC, the OOC may have influenced the IC, but now you actually get to play the game. Life is full of these little decisions.


I suppose I have been blessed with a like-minded group. We have alignment 'squabbles' now and then, though never any clear winner. (I usually win because they give up halfway through any good progress can be made. I don't say anything about it though. I just smile and nod.) I understand people have different ways of having fun. This is mine and it has nearly NONE of the issues that I have seen cripple other groups.

My character would still retaliate against the rogue character if he found out. Stern warning, probably a warning shot with a fireball (that the rgoue could save against) the second time and removal of the rogue from the party a third time (peacefully if possible, violently if not). Trust is important for parties of a true neutral alignment (and we all are in this group).

So, your character decides that IC he wouldn't kill the thief the first or second time. And someone else in the group, RPing their guy, decides that they WOULD, or that they would punish him in some way that the thief will never allow. (Thog say in Thog tribe we cut thieves man bits off. Come here thief!!!) Thief is out of play. Thief player may be mad.

[Sith_Happens]

In the case where the ninja killed off my character, i knew full well that it would happen at some point, he would kill or i would kill him when he tried to kill me. The entire table realized this when the ninja would kill off random NPCs every few days. The moment we left town, the party was the only targets, but my character had no idea that it would happen, he wasn't a witness to the murders, and the ninja didn't just blab about it to the party, but it happened and my character died because i failed my roles. I accepted that my character was now dead, i liked my twf ranger a lot, but i roled up a new character. Funny thing is, he managed to kill everyone one in the party at least once, and then died in combat.

Yeah, another PC skimming the loot is one thing, but plotting to kill my character? As soon as I know OOC that it's me or them, no IC justification is too flimsy for me to do everything I can think of to make sure it's not me.

[Baroncognito]

Ok so for those who want to kill the thieves of the world, would you demand an equal share of the gold if the party thief ran a solo night job pilfering from a noble? How about if he cut some coin purses? Or even robbed a few choice items from various shops?

Would you kill him for doing those things and choosing to gift you a share? How about if he kept it to himself?

I wouldn't want a share of his loot, but I might be somewhat upset that he got DM time for a solo adventure if I didn't get something similar.

[Eldonauran]

This is true. OTOH, many of the other issues can be linked to NOT using OOC motivations to direct IC gameplay. It works both ways.

I haven't any evidence otherwise, so no argument there. I just haven't seen it happen.


Step back a moment, Mr. Drama Major. Paying attention to the metagame does not mean that someone does not enjoy playing the character or pretending to be in his footsteps.

Drama Major? :smallconfused: Never really got into that stuff. Too artsy for me. :smallwink:

Where did you get the idea that I said people who didn't do that were playing wrong? I merely stated that this is how I approach roleplaying. That leaves it open that other people may or may not do that same thing.


If you are sitting in a tavern at beginning of a game and the other PCs all decide to go on a quest and your character thinks they look wierd and decides not to go, it isn't helping the game. Sure, it might be legit IC, but then you never get to play your character, because your team just left you before you ever did anything but RP drinking a beer.

I would more fault this on the player than the character's motivations. We go into the game knowing it is a group structure. Rolling up a character that is highly picky or selective is counter productive to the gameplay.


If that little OOC voice just makes your character decide to go along with them IC, the OOC may have influenced the IC, but now you actually get to play the game. Life is full of these little decisions.

Characters have whims and make spontaneous decisions all the time, just like real people. It doesn't have to be OOC interference for a character you described to suddenly become interested in adventuring. You can use your OOC knowledge to alert your character to something, say if he heard something said that already played to his interests. The dungeon the party is going to explore had always been the subject of boyhood daydreams and the character suddenly has an urge to scratch that itch. Maybe it would be to his liking.

Moving a character along a path purely with OOC decisions is somewhat bland and unispiring. He is merely being dragged along for the ride. Find something that will capture his zeal, make him move to the head of the party and LEAD THE WAY!!! It will have more meaning and enjoyment in it than the typical, 'Im in it for the gold'.


So, your character decides that IC he wouldn't kill the thief the first or second time. And someone else in the group, RPing their guy, decides that they WOULD, or that they would punish him in some way that the thief will never allow. (Thog say in Thog tribe we cut thieves man bits off. Come here thief!!!) Thief is out of play. Thief player may be mad.

Player might be mad, sure. The players in my group would not, simply because we understand the difference between IC and OOC. The thief's player would have known before hand the risk he runs in stealing from the party.

Should we be introducing a new player to the group, I am sure we would briefly discuss the dynamics of our group, toss the new player in and see how he adapts. The groups dynamic isnt static, however. It has and will change again once more people are introduced and others drift away.

[SciChronic]

With all due respect, wouldn't going around killing other PCs be bully behavior? That could be a quick way to derail a campaign.

Not really, because other than his literal need to appease his god, ever few days or he would have to sacrifice himself, he was an extremely effective rogue/thief character.

[Paragon468]

I've played with three kinds of thieves: those who steal gold, artifacts, and useful items from the other players, those that skim some money off the top of the pile, or only steal from enemies/NPCs, and those that only steal things that are relevant to their backstory or the game's plot.

The first are the kinds nobody likes having in their party. I had one player who kept trying to steal a magic horn I had (neither of us knew what it was, I was going to ask the wizard to see). That ended in THREE player deaths, and a HUGE roadbump in the story.

The second kind aren't all that bad. It's their way of having fun, and I've played one before myself. Filching 50 gold pieces out of 5,000 isn't going to hurt anybody, nor will taking the +1 longsword of flame that isn't even as good as the fighter's current weapon.

The third is my favorite: I'm playing one right now, and he's pretty bada$$. He never steals from the party, only from rival organizations and governments. He once stole a major treaty that was going to be signed by two of the biggest nations in the world, as well as information on their plan to invade a neighboring nation. We weren't supposed to find out about that until halfway through the game, and it only made it better that one of the nations was rivals with the organization my character belonged to: major political leverage, and he got a fair bit of gold for delivering the stolen treaty and information to his leaders.

So depending on the type of thief, the amount of fun/fairness will vary.

[tiercel]

Imagine an elementary school cafeteria. you're in line for food, and you see that they have pudding cups today, and you really feel that pudding sounds good at the time. The person in front of you also likes pudding, and overhears you talking with your friends behind you that you like pudding too, but he happens to take the last one. You are now dissatisfied since you couldn't eat pudding, and at recess you find the kid that got the pudding cup and start kicking sand in his face. Over a pudding cup.

The analogy is significantly inexact.

In the first place, a more apt analogy might be that you and a group of your classmates might be working on a group project, and the reward for you all finishing the project is pudding cups for all. Only you decide that you deserve pudding more than these putzes you're working with, so when the project is done and you go up to claim the pudding, you open all the cups and scoop some of everyone else's pudding into your cup (or your tummy).

The justification for this is "I believe I deserve pudding more than these guys" plus "because I can." By the same logic, one of your classmates might decide to intimidate you into giving him some of your pudding, sweet-talk/fast-talk you into giving her extra pudding, or ensorcel your mind to hand over some of your pudding, and they would be equally justified.

If only you take actions like this, then of course your classmates won't want to group with you. If you all take actions like this, then your group is more about stealing each others' pudding then actually accomplishing a project.

Perhaps more to the point, D&D tends to be a game about solving problems with murder. If you steal from a party that expects an equitable division of loot, you've just made yourself into a problem. At that point, you don't get to be surprised at the first solution that jumps into their heads.

[Sylthia]

As a DM, if someone in my party started killing his fellow PCs, I'd invoke the "rocks fall, everbody dies" rule.

[Slipperychicken]

Imagine an elementary school cafeteria.


It's more like if the kid promised to help you out in a fight, but then ran over, knicked your wallet, and started running away.