True Dragon PC Advice? (Besides don't do it. :P )

[Amoren]

Alright, this is partially for a game I'm applying in, and partially for the future because I really like the concept and will likely recycle it if it doesn't get in. What are the tricks that a true dragon (wyrmling) can pull off to be more effective than being a decent beat stick in melee? I'm aware of the archetypes (which I like, but don't have access to at least at the start in the game I'm working on), and the 'questionable' interpretation of allowing true dragons to automatically qualify for certain prestige classes, but I'm looking for other stuff and advice. If it helps at all, the character I'm building this for was allowed to be a true dragon with zero level adjustment, so at the very least his attack bonus, health, and skills will keep up with the party.

Bonus points if it allows the character to be effective not just in draconic form, but also in the guise of a humanoid. Also bonus points for anything that doesn't rely on class levels.

So far my current plan is using a Permanent Amulet of Strength of the True Form, so he keeps his actual stats and natural armor in his humanoid guise, and a Ring of Arming so that he's capable of storing his weapons, armor, and (hopefully allowed by the DM) clothing so he doesn't have to constantly re-equip them after popping back and forth. Unfortunately, he still seems to be hampered a bit, mostly by the lack of proficiency with any armor and martial weapons so he's not that effective in melee combat. I'm mostly relying on his large skill pool to help the party (Appraise, diplomacy, sense motive, knowledge: arcana and history, use magic device, etc), as well as the Draconic Knowledge feat so that at the very least, he might act as some sort of plot railroad element for the DM.

Edit: This isn't to try and break a true dragon as much as I can, since I'm fine to play a bit weaker just for the concept. I'm mostly hoping to get it to the point that he's effective and a worthwhile member of the party, rather than being a weight to be carried - with more than his useful skills and draconic knowledge advice to make him useful.

[Urpriest]

About the whole "without class levels" thing: depending on starting level (which I seem to be missing here), you'll probably have at least one class level. Dragons take years to go between age categories. Once you've got your wyrmling hit dice, it will be a while till you start moving toward your next age category.

[Amnestic]

Well Dragon Hitdice are pretty good as far as hit dice go (12hp, all good saves, full BAB, 6+IntMod Skill points) so while having them will hurt, you could be doing a lot worse. Just how many hit dice obviously depends on your dragon type (White=3HD, Red=7HD) which will affect your build. You could create an effective enough beatstick by going into a ToB class. Your Dragon HD will count towards your IL which will help mitigate the fact that you're otherwise not getting anything in the way of class features from them.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I would suggest a Steel dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a), without LA the clock up at 4 HD, with fair stats; but the beuty of them is getting casting as a first level sorcerer, add in Loredrake from Dragons of Eberron (which in this case is totally justified and RAW-proof) for an excelent Gish in a can, add levels of other stuff like abjurant champion or other gishy prestige classes (ironically Dragonslayer is a pretty good dip to nab BAB, proficiencies and a casting advancement).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Given that you get a bunch of cool stuff for being a true dragon, at low levels you can be as useful as most front line characters.

My favorite use: Battle Dragon into Bard. With Perform as a class skill they can get into many Bard PrCs easily. Go into Seeker of the Song and boom.

[Gavinfoxx]

read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9064.0

And follow it. Use LA buyoff too. Thus you minimize LA, Rhd, and maximize useful abilities (and relevant casting classes) for your ecl.

So wyrmling tome or wyrmling steel.

[Amoren]

I don't really like the steel dragons all too much, they feel more like a cat than a dragon in my eyes (not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm leading towards making this character FEEL like a fire breathing creature of doom, not a reptile with magic). So, while I recognize its probably more effective, I want to try to make something that's more dragon than class. For that reason and others, I'm leaning mostly towards a gold dragon, and thinking of advancing it to the 2nd age category during the game (three levels for large size, +4 strength, +2 con, int, wis, cha, +3 NA seems like a pretty decent deal, and means that he'll be a quite solid meleer). I'm using an explanation that the character is currently a runt due to his egg being disturbed, so he's not even quite wyrmling yet while his age is parked at near juvinile.

That being said, I know that playing a smaller hit dice dragon and taking more class levels would be more effective, but I'm interested and leaning to see what can be done with straight dragon. He'll likely gain class levels somewhere down the road (most likely sorc or crusader), but I'd want them to support his dragon-ness, not making the dragon a side feature to a melee fighter/gish. If any of that makes sense.

As a side note, though, if anyone knows how to get weapon/armor proficiency cheap and easy it would go a long way. XD

[MesiDoomstalker]

As a side note, though, if anyone knows how to get weapon/armor proficiency cheap and easy it would go a long way. XD

One level of Fighter (or a slew of other classes with all Armor and Martial proficiencies). Its quick and dirty, and gives you a feat you can easily use. Everyone loves Improved Initiative.

[TypoNinja]

I've played a fang dragon from start to (So far) 22nd level, depending on your OP level, you could be very powerful.

First off, at medium sized you have 5 attack. Bam. Your up front damage output is disgusting at low levels. And if you went fang like me, there are multiple trip attempts in there. Combine with Improved Multiattack so you don't take negatives on secondary and tertiary attacks. I'm currently sitting on 6 attacks at +47 each. Go into Rapid Strike as soon as you can to add iteratives to your claws and wings. You WILL win a game of shot for shot.

Without LA will just make you scary, Dragons get d12',s good saves, lots of skill points, and +1 nat armour per HD. Early on your AC will be playing catch up to the people who can use armor, after that you start pulling ahead rapidly. Pile magic items on top of your nat armor equal to HD and even at high levels bruiser types stop landing blows.

Amulet of Mighty fists will let you enchant all 5 of your attacks with one item, your strength score will quickly get disgusting as it goes up every age catagorie, so missing will be rare (I usually look for nat ones only), and you'll hit for big numbers (4d8+25 is my bite).

Once you acquire spellcasting, focus on spells that buff you, or help the party. Your caster level will be pitiful so you'll never beat SR, and by that level everything has SR. So you want buffs, non-level dependent effects, and utility. I use Wings of Cover a lot. It makes me feel guilty sometimes. Being a pure melee class that can cast wraith strike just before full attacking feels like cheating. There are a lot of personal range buffs on the sorcerer/wizard list that are only remotely fair because they expected a wizard to be casting them. Give them to a dragon and it just gets not nice. Lions charge gives you pounce for minutes a level, The psionic version can be cast as a swift action, consider blowing feats on hidden talent. Critical strike for some extra d6's for the hell of it, the list goes on.

Any of the usual tricks that let you move without giving up your full attack are amazing. You get size, reach to go with it, racial stat boosts up the ying yang, flight (blow a feat on hover at some point, dragon maneuverability sucks.)

You will be disgustingly fast. Nothing matches a dragon for sheer speed, a flying charge can take you a couple hundred feet or more. Consider taking improved speed to pile insult to injury.

Dragon Blind sense means if its within 60 feet of you, you know about it. Never be ambushed again.

Draconic knowledge gives you a Lore ability, so now you know everything.

This the kind of info you looking for? :P

[KillingAScarab]

Not being proficient with a type of armor means you apply the armor check penalty to more rolls. Leather armor has no armor check penalty, neither does masterwork studded leather or a masterwork buckler. This means you can benefit from those without light armor proficiency. This would fit well with posing as a skillmonkey more than being on the frontline (until you can get that level of fighter).

Gold dragons get disguise as a class skill, but not the trickier stuff. If you're allowed to use Magic of Incarnum, you could spend a feat on shape soulmeld: theft gloves. When you have that soulmeld shaped (which should be all the time) it's a +2 insight bonus to disable device, open lock and sleight of hand and you can use the skills untrained. If you've got a constitution score of 13 or more by 6th level, open least chakra: hands can get you trapfinding.

[Amoren]

@TypoNinja: That sounds almost exactly like what I was hoping for, actually. I was worried about becoming less effective the longer the game went, but if what your experience says is true then he should actually catch up to where a straight fighter or other melee equivalent should sort of be at. Also, I thought Rapidstrike only gave you one attack at that iterative (so for the claw routine, it'll be 0/0/-5, not 0/0/-5/-5, or was that hidden in the grammar?

@KillingAScarab: That's about what I'm doing now, at least with the light armor wise. I spent quite a while trying to figure out how to get fullplate down to 0 ACP though and came up empty. (Closest I could figure was a +1 Mobile Mithril Fullplate, which brought it down to -2 and cost around 15k).

Hmm, a few further questions, as well. Awaken Spell Resistance and Awaken Frightful Pressence seem nice for giving him some of his later draconic qualities earlier, but given that they're equal to his racial hit dice (for spell resistance) or limited to enemies with lower hit dice than him (frightful presence) it doesn't seem like they'd have any real use against foes around his or the party's challenge rating (although I suppose it could still be useful against mooks and minions). Does anyone think these feats are worthwhile, or could be strangle held to make them worth while? Or for that matter, anyone else know of really good draconic flavored feats?

[TypoNinja]

@TypoNinja: That sounds almost exactly like what I was hoping for, actually. I was worried about becoming less effective the longer the game went, but if what your experience says is true then he should actually catch up to where a straight fighter or other melee equivalent should sort of be at. Also, I thought Rapidstrike only gave you one attack at that iterative (so for the claw routine, it'll be 0/0/-5, not 0/0/-5/-5, or was that hidden in the grammar?


Hmm, a few further questions, as well. Awaken Spell Resistance and Awaken Frightful Pressence seem nice for giving him some of his later draconic qualities earlier, but given that they're equal to his racial hit dice (for spell resistance) or limited to enemies with lower hit dice than him (frightful presence) it doesn't seem like they'd have any real use against foes around his or the party's challenge rating (although I suppose it could still be useful against mooks and minions). Does anyone think these feats are worthwhile, or could be strangle held to make them worth while? Or for that matter, anyone else know of really good draconic flavored feats?

Rapid strike does only give you one, but if your game goes on long enough, (bab +15) you can go for Improved Rapid Strike, which will give you full iteratives with each pair of weapons, your wings and claws qualify if you want to dump that many feats.

Also, I agree some of your racial abilties are kind of lackluster, dragons were designed as antagonists rather than PC's so alot of your special powers are just fine at CR, but not at level. 25 SR at 20th level is nothing to write home about, neither is DR /Magic. For this reason I feel like the Awaken feats aren't worth it since after you naturally get the ability they translate to a measly +2. Suppose if your DM will let you retrain them away later they could be worth it for opening it up.

Frightful presence could be worth it if you get the DC high enough, anything with less HD than you is affected, so it still comes up a decent amount of time, and of course is amazing agaisnt a crowd of Mooks.

Races of Dragon and Draconomicon are your best friends for feats, and spells. There are several spells that have improved or added effects when cast by a dragon/dragonblooded. And Draconomicon has a bunch of Dragon only feats. Large and in Charge has lots of potential if you want to design your combat style around it.

For quite a while you'll lack the kinds of options/class abilities/feats that another melee class enjoys, no bonus feats, rage, favored enemies. But as soon as you pick up spellcasting abilities that lack gets made up for and then some. You also get one other power that's often overlooked.

Dragons are the only race that is the exception to skill points and int increases. Intelligence increases retroactively gain skill points. You will be Drowning in skill points. I got 15 skill points last level up, and my next age category will come with an Int increase so I'm going to get Fourty skill points that level. 16 for leveling up and 24, one for each HD. There are not that many skills in the game without resorting to subskills. Whens the last time you leveled up and put one point into everything?

One final suggestion. Every score you have gets increases, except dex. Try to get a high dex in there, touch AC is your biggest weakness until you can score scintillating scales. Dex is your static score, I put an 18 in it, because I knew it'd never go anywhere.

It can be tempting to fall into the trap of thinking you need a high casting stat, but honestly, you get spells so late you never cast them at anything, so a high save DC doesn't matter, and by the time you do get spell casting you've had a few stat increases from age categories, so as long as you didn't completely dump it you should still be fine for your 10+spell level to cast. On the other hand, if you can get it sky high, more bonus spells never hurt anybody. Dragons do suffer from having a good reason to put a high number in all their stats. But unless you are starting at a fairly high level you are going to spend most of your time hitting things, so focus on that to start, by the time you want other stuff you've got the racial boost and the wealth to make up your shortcomings.

Bestow Curse and Greater Bestow Curse can age you temporarily, as can simply wishing an extra decade or two onto your age, or hunt down a fast time plane and vacation there to keep up with your party.

[Amoren]

The DM for the current character I'm focusing on beat ya to those last ones. He's already ruled that I don't gain the benefits of aging unless I spend hit dice to gain the effect. :P

Mind you, it could probably be used as a fluff reason that he keeps growing despite being extraordinary young for those hit dice/age category (could just be a quick grower. *Shrug*)

Also, checking at improved rapid strike, it still only gives you one attack at each 'iterative' (0/0/-5/-10/-15/-20), unless that's what you meant. Still, 3+ extra attacks isn't too bad.

And... looking at large and in charge, ho-ly... Yep. He's advancing to juvinile ASAP. That + knock down will be hilarious battlefield control.

[Gavinfoxx]

What ECL are you playing at?

[Darrin]

Bonus points if it allows the character to be effective not just in draconic form, but also in the guise of a humanoid. Also bonus points for anything that doesn't rely on class levels.


See if you can track down a copy of Dragon Magazine #320 and #332. They had each dragon broken down into 20 class levels for PCs. #320 covered the metallic dragons, #332 covered the chromatic dragons.

The gold and silver dragons worked best for PCs, as they have access to humanoid form very early (gold from the 1st level, silver from I think 4th?).

A gold dragon that takes Improved Unarmed Strike could probably do a pretty decent job masquerading as a monk (possibly even better than an actual monk). For each "dragon level", they get full BAB, d12 hit points, all Good saves, and 6 skill points per HD. They eventually get some SLAs and spellcasting, but at such a high ECL that its probably meaningless for most PCs.

There are a couple of headaches with this, though. First, Dragon HD = "age", and most PCs level up in a timeframe much, much faster than dragons age, so a player taking dragon levels can start as a Wyrmling (0-5 years) and can then shoot up to a Young dragon (16-25 years) in only 1-2 years of "game time". On the other hand, many players figure out that advancing via PC class levels is much more effective than leveling up as a dragon, so you could have a Gold Dragon 1/Wizard 19 that can burn ancient dragons to a cinder but is still technically only a "5-year-old wyrmling".

[Amoren]

Starting at ECL 8 for the Gold Dragon Wyrmling.

Also, since I can't find it anywhere else, can you make trip attempts with natural weapons? Or how does it work with natural weapons?

[KillingAScarab]

Also, since I can't find it anywhere else, can you make trip attempts with natural weapons? Or how does it work with natural weapons?Yes. That's the only shtick wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) have, other than scent. Tracking you down and tripping you forever. Don't mess with wolves. :smallsmile:

[Amoren]

Yes, but they specifically have an ability that allows them to make trip attempts when they attack (same with fang dragons). The best I can tell is that it needs to be an unarmed touch attack to prompt a trip... But I don't know if that means one of the iteratives from your unarmed attack routine, or if its a standard action, or what.

[Phelix-Mu]

Dragons are the only race that is the exception to skill points and int increases. Intelligence increases retroactively gain skill points.

It's not that I don't believe you on this point, but could I trouble you for a source?

I am designing a dragon cohort-ish for an epic campaign (see wyrm rod in the Epic Level Handbook...quite a silly device...expensive, but a very, very, very useful tool), and I need to know where to peg his skill points. I already did the difficult HD by HD skill point calculation, so I wouldn't be surprised if WotC said "that's way too complicated" and used Rule of Cool for the dragons. And it's going to help my character, so I'm all for it.

[KillingAScarab]

Yes, but they specifically have an ability that allows them to make trip attempts when they attack (same with fang dragons). The best I can tell is that it needs to be an unarmed touch attack to prompt a trip... But I don't know if that means one of the iteratives from your unarmed attack routine, or if its a standard action, or what.Here's what Rules Compendium has on tripping.


Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks, as delineated in their descriptions. If a weapon can be used in this manner, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Most creatures make trip attacks normally despite having natural weapons. No creature has an advantage when using its natural weapons unless its description says otherwise.What that trip ability does for a wolf or fang dragon is make it a free action to trip, and they do so without penalty in this manner. They can still trip in the exact same manner as every other creature, according to the rules for the special attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm). So, what does trip require? An unarmed melee attack. Just about any corporeal creature should be capable of attempting one of those. What you really want to know, though, is if during a full attack action with your natural attacks you may replace one with a trip attempt. I do not believe so.

However, if you were to make a full attack action with iterative attacks (even if your BAB is less than +6), you could also attack with secondary natural weapons as well. A small dragon with 1 HD could make a "full attack" to attempt to trip a medium creature and then make two claw attacks at BAB -5. Unless one of their claws was currently holding something, then it would be just one. That's my understanding, anyway.

[Amoren]

It's not that I don't believe you on this point, but could I trouble you for a source?

I am designing a dragon cohort-ish for an epic campaign (see wyrm rod in the Epic Level Handbook...quite a silly device...expensive, but a very, very, very useful tool), and I need to know where to peg his skill points. I already did the difficult HD by HD skill point calculation, so I wouldn't be surprised if WotC said "that's way too complicated" and used Rule of Cool for the dragons. And it's going to help my character, so I'm all for it.

Took a while to find, but I found it. Page 142 of Draconomicon, in Advancing and Aging for Dragon Characters as PCs, right column near the middle.

[TypoNinja]

The DM for the current character I'm focusing on beat ya to those last ones. He's already ruled that I don't gain the benefits of aging unless I spend hit dice to gain the effect. :P

Mind you, it could probably be used as a fluff reason that he keeps growing despite being extraordinary young for those hit dice/age category (could just be a quick grower. *Shrug*)

Also, checking at improved rapid strike, it still only gives you one attack at each 'iterative' (0/0/-5/-10/-15/-20), unless that's what you meant. Still, 3+ extra attacks isn't too bad.

And... looking at large and in charge, ho-ly... Yep. He's advancing to juvinile ASAP. That + knock down will be hilarious battlefield control.

You want to level as Dragon only anyway, that is to say take a dragon HD every level, since your DM isnt giving you an LA it's a big harder to decide when to take the age category bonuses. Rule of thumb, HD play catch up to age.

Improved Rapid Strike,

You can take this feat once for each pair of natural weapons you have. For example, a Large true dragon has one bite, two claws, two wings, and one tail attacks. The dragon can take this feat twice, once for its claws and once for its wings.

So you'd take two version of it, Imp. Rapid Strike [Claws] and Imp. Rapid Strike [Wings], and your attack routine would be Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Tail Slap. At -5 Claw, Wing. At - 10 Claw, Wing. At -15 Claw, Wing. at -20 Claw, Wing. For a logic defying 14 attacks per round, before haste. Cast Wraith Stike first and you'll probably still hit with everything.

[Phelix-Mu]

So you'd take two version of it, Imp. Rapid Strike [Claws] and Imp. Rapid Strike [Wings], and your attack routine would be Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Tail Slap. At -5 Claw, Wing. At - 10 Claw, Wing. At -15 Claw, Wing. at -20 Claw, Wing. For a logic defying 14 attacks per round, before haste. Cast Wraith Stike first and you'll probably still hit with everything.

I am about to spring this same combo on the DM with the dragon from the wyrm rod. Add in some ToB swift teleport/sudden leap/lion's pounce/free movement trick, and very silly. Dragons combo all around strong stats with big HD to great effect. That many of the eldest dragons rarely have to rely on melee is testament to their power.

Once you get high enough to have spells, see if you can qualify for Arcane Strike. If you fill a mainly melee role, you will likely have more spell slots than you can burn simply by a round or two buffing, and it's fuel for Power Attack.

[CIDE]

Why does everyone mention +2 LA for Steel Dragons? They have no LA ever mentioned. And the CR is NOT LA considering it's CR of 2 already takes into consideration its 4 RHD. If anything it's either A:non playable or B: has no LA anyway.

[Marnath]

Why does everyone mention +2 LA for Steel Dragons? They have no LA ever mentioned. And the CR is NOT LA considering it's CR of 2 already takes into consideration its 4 RHD. If anything it's either A:non playable or B: has no LA anyway.

Everyone mentions the +2 LA because that's what it says in their statblock. :smallconfused:

[Amoren]

Darnit, how did I go from not having enough ideas to fill up its feat slots, to suddenly desiring more? xD

Right now I've picked up combat expertise and improved trip, hoping to get knock down later so that in addition to his wide array of attacks, he'll be able to just knock things down (and perhaps even around) in dragon form, doing damage and helping keep things off the rest of the team. It also gives him something to do in his disguise. Other than that, I've picked up multi-attack, power attack, and draconic knowledge.

What I want to get now is hover and flyby attack (circle straffing sounds so delightfully mean). Oh well, he probably wouldn't be doing too much flying anyway...

[TypoNinja]

I am about to spring this same combo on the DM with the dragon from the wyrm rod. Add in some ToB swift teleport/sudden leap/lion's pounce/free movement trick, and very silly. Dragons combo all around strong stats with big HD to great effect. That many of the eldest dragons rarely have to rely on melee is testament to their power.

Once you get high enough to have spells, see if you can qualify for Arcane Strike. If you fill a mainly melee role, you will likely have more spell slots than you can burn simply by a round or two buffing, and it's fuel for Power Attack.

That was originally my plan with my Fang Dragon, plus improved nat attack feats, but honestly, I started murdering stuff so hard I started feeling guilty about how strong I was and took leadership feats instead to raise an army of kobolds (long story :P).

Depending on the average optimization of your group a dragon PC is not a weak option at all, I full attack for 4d8+25, 4d6+15, 4d6+15, 2d6+15, 2d6+15, 2d8+35, add in a con drain on the bite and a 3 trip attempts. Use a belt of battle to do it again if you really really want it dead.

6d8+12d6+120 is enough damage to one or two shot even other beatstick types. If the fight ever comes down to just a game of shot for shot, I win. I have almost 485HP, a 52AC, and huge sized shuts down all those pesky grapple monsters.

And now I have 3rd level magic I can also fill a support caster role.

There are TO builds that do better, but this has the benefit of being far more fun to play in my opinion, you aren't really waiting for certain levels so your build trick can kick in, you get lots of skill points so you have plenty of out of combat roles to go with your beatstick (I'm the party face, and knowledge source for anything the cleric doesn't know), and you get to have fun with the townies with the "holy **** its a dragon" aspect :P

[TuggyNE]

What you really want to know, though, is if during a full attack action with your natural attacks you may replace one with a trip attempt. I do not believe so.

Why wouldn't you? Tripping (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) is a melee attack, not a standard action.

[Phelix-Mu]

That was originally my plan with my Fang Dragon, plus improved nat attack feats, but honestly, I started murdering stuff so hard I started feeling guilty about how strong I was and took leadership feats instead to raise an army of kobolds (long story :P).


Indeed, the main reason I originally had my character acquire the wyrm dragon item was it's a 17th level sorcerer with improved spell lists. Throw in some fabricate, and make money like it's going out of style.

Happily, it's an epic campaign, and I don't have to worry about doing too much damage, as we've hit numerous bosses whose hp numbers in the tens of thousands. As the party's melee character (surrounded by casters and an animal companion), I pretty much have been forced to pick up every trick I can for damage. I'm still working on a way to make the greater mighty wallop work on all of the dragon's attacks, which will be a nice size boost for the damage.

As for the OP, remember to max UMD, as early on this could be quite helpful. Eventually, the Shockwave feat can be used to get enemies prone, though it doesn't necessarily interact well with the normal tripping tricks. On big dragons, though, as a DM I have found it to be very effective.

Let me put in a more direct plug for some of the ToB stuff. Without a martial adept level, recharge will suck, but there are a few maneuvers that can be quite effective even when acquired through Martial Study. Also a handy way to pick up a new class skill or two.

A fighter dip at some point just for the bonus feats might be desirable. There really are only a handful of character concepts for which there are less good feat choices than feat slots.

[CIDE]

Everyone mentions the +2 LA because that's what it says in their statblock. :smallconfused:

Where? It wasn't in the web enhancement that IIRC is newer.

[Marnath]

Where? It wasn't in the web enhancement that IIRC is newer.

Dragons of Faerun.

[Amoren]

Depending on the average optimization of your group a dragon PC is not a weak option at all, I full attack for 4d8+25, 4d6+15, 4d6+15, 2d6+15, 2d6+15, 2d8+35, add in a con drain on the bite and a 3 trip attempts. Use a belt of battle to do it again if you really really want it dead.

And if you wanted to be down right mean, you could take 10 levels of Arcane Duelist. Your charisma to AC, and whenever you cast mirror image, the images repeat your full attack routine. :P

[Fyermind]

If you agree that you can make an unarmed strike full attack routine while still making your natural attacks as secondary attacks, you can use all those "free" unarmed strikes as trip attempts.

Have fun.

[TypoNinja]

And if you wanted to be down right mean, you could take 10 levels of Arcane Duelist. Your charisma to AC, and whenever you cast mirror image, the images repeat your full attack routine. :P

Class levels are inferior to Dragon HD at this point.

I get d12, +nat armour, the DC's on all my spell likes and special abilities, stat increases, disguising amounts of skill points, and every 3 levels = 2 levels of spell casting. And I'm also looking at regular size increases.

Oh and Monstrous Hitdie don't follow epic progression for BAB/Saves. So I'll keep my All good saves, and my now awesome BAB progression that's twice as fast as the fighter. I never miss, and its going to stay that way.

If you are being a Dragon, its worth being just Dragon.

[Jigokuro]

If you are being a Dragon, its worth being just Dragon.

Truer words...:smallbiggrin: