3.5 Sorcerer Prestige Classes

[sparkyinbozo]

Any recommendations for Sorc prestige classes in 3.5? Most of them seem tailored to wizards more than sorc's.

[137beth]

Mage of the arcane order gives you access to utility spells from a spellpool...any low level spells! This helps to negate your weakness of not having a lot of utility spells.
If you like abjuration initiate of the sevenfold vale is nice and gives a lot of abilities (and spells, which means you don't have to take those spells.)

[Fyermind]

Incantrix is a fantastic class... It seems wizard based at first, but sorcerers use metamagic better, and it is really metamagic based.

[Grim Reader]

Sand Shaper gives a kiloton of spells known, even for a dip. Loses a caster level though.

Fiend-Blooded loses no caster levels and lets you add a few spells known, not restricted by list.

Abjurant Champion is almost free stuff when you get the BaB.

Mindbender is well known as a good dip. Shaper of Form is almost unknown as a good dip. But yeah, Arcane Order rules them all.

[Regitnui]

At the risk of sounding really boring, there's also Dragon Disciple from the DMG which basically turns you into a half-dragon. That is flavour-wise, tied to Sorcerers. Not sure if it's better for them than anything else though.

[eggynack]

At the risk of sounding really boring, there's also Dragon Disciple from the DMG which basically turns you into a half-dragon. That is flavour-wise, tied to Sorcerers. Not sure if it's better for them than anything else though.
That class doesn't advance caster level at all, and doesn't really give you anything in exchange for it. It might be worse for them than anything. Anywho, to give something productive to this conversation they can technically take initiate of the sevenfold veil. It's harder to get into for a sorcerer than a wizard, but if you invest the feats, get like 12 int, and invest some cross class skill ranks in knowledge nature, you can pull it off. It's a lot of work, but it's also one of the best prestige classes in the game. Picking up 5 abjuration spells of level 4 or higher could be tricky too. Basically, if you can pull it off then it's probably worth it.

Edit: I just noticed that you only need two abjurations of level 4 or greater and 5 overall. That's far more doable, but still pretty bad. It's clearly meant for wizards, but you can definitely do it by some point.

[A_S]

Only two need to be level 4+, which is much easier.

*edit* Swordsage'd.

[eggynack]

Only two need to be level 4+, which is much easier.

*edit* Swordsage'd.
Indeed so. Still pretty difficult to pull off. It's not like any given player couldn't do it, but they'd need to work for it. Still, the three lower level spells are reasonably simple to get. Resistance is a no-brainer, dispel magic is pretty consistently excellent, and can be spammed for power, and then you just need one more. Trading out one of your first level spells for alarm or something before you hit the prestige class seems reasonable. After that, you have to make both of your fourth level spells known abjuration if you want to get in by 10th. 9th is also a feat level, so 10th is pretty optimal I think. The SRD abjuration spells at 4th seem meh, but maybe there's something out of core for great power. Maybe an abjuration cantrip too if I'm lucky.

Edit: I am apparently not lucky. There aren't that many great abjurations at 4th either, especially on a sorcerer I think. I might still stand by the "worth it for phenomenal veil creating power" stance.

[KillingAScarab]

Ultimate Magus has a funny way to say it was made with sorcerer/wizard entry in mind.
It might be possible for members of other spellcasting classes to do so under specific conditions, but such an occurrence is as rare as cockatrice teeth.

Eldritch Theurge to combine sorcerer and warlock. If you're going to combine warlock with a mage, it may as well be a sorcerer.


The SRD abjuration spells at 4th seem meh, but maybe there's something out of core for great power. Maybe an abjuration cantrip too if I'm lucky.

Edit: I am apparently not lucky. There aren't that many great abjurations at 4th either, especially on a sorcerer I think. I might still stand by the "worth it for phenomenal veil creating power" stance.Not a fan of Otiluke's Suppressing Field?

[Psyren]

Any of them! Sorcerer has no class features, so abandon ship.


Mage of the arcane order gives you access to utility spells from a spellpool...any low level spells! This helps to negate your weakness of not having a lot of utility spells.
If you like abjuration initiate of the sevenfold vale is nice and gives a lot of abilities (and spells, which means you don't have to take those spells.)

It's helpful but remember, you need to jury-rig your way in with Arcane Preparation. You also get less use out of the spellpool than a wizard would - you can only pay your magedebt with prepared spells, meaning you can only pay it with the spell you have prepared in your AP, rather than with a combination of lower spells as a wizard might choose to do.

[eggynack]

I don't think I've ever looked at that one before now. It seems cool, but a little on the situational side or a sorcerer spell. Evaluating it from a wizard perspective, I'd only really prepare the thing if I knew I was going up against a caster with a heavy focus on a particular school. It's halfway spammable, because the duration isn't super long, but it doesn't seem that hard to get around if you have any variety in your spell schools at all. It's not like the effect is insurmountable for a focused caster either, just annoying. It seems to suffer from many of the same issues that spell resistance does too, in that it suppresses your own casting, and there are spells that can just get around it.

Also, the final nail in the coffin is that I just noticed that the rating in treantmonk's guide to wizards is a face hitting itself against a wall until the end of time. Not really a startling recommendation. The spells the guide does recommend are dimensional anchor, wall of x, dispelling screen (which might just be better than the spell you recommended), and mass resist energy. They're all pretty decent, but without the incentive of the prestige class, I'd never take any of them on a sorcerer. They're reasonable choices, but nothing special.

[ericgrau]

Any of them! Sorcerer has no class features, so abandon ship.
This is largely true. But sorcerers also have a harder time meeting feat based and spell based pre-requisites, especially at lower levels. Loremaster is quite costly to enter and often a bad choice for a sorcerer, for example.

And +1 dragon disciple is way past a bad idea for a sorc who wants to cast. Dragon disciple is for melee, says so right in the DMG. Why don't people ever read this? You dip sorc instead.

For a 4th level abjuration, stoneskin is exceptional. Don't even flinch at dumping 2,000 gp into diamond dust nor at casting it frequently. You'll be surprised at how many levels that lasts you given how brief levels are in D&D. I'd be wary of all the other PHB abjurations. Supressing field too. Anything that can't even be used in 90% of fights is a Bad Idea. In spell compendium I found greater resistance, mass resist energy, and wall of good. All 3 are amazing.

[eggynack]

Or, ya'know, just avoid dragon disciple altogether. I don't really see anything worth recommending about it. Your melee character is dipping into sorcerer for some reason, and then entering a class that only gives 3/4 BAB. The ability boosts seem nice, but the whole class just doesn't seem worth it in general. If you think about it, you're getting a +2 bonus to attack by level 4. However, by the time you get there you've already lost one point of attack bonus from the sorcerer dip and another from the 3/4's BAB advancement. It all just kinda balances itself out, and the class features are lackluster, so the opportunity cost of doing this as opposed to other things is pretty high. Even in core you can still pull off a few good melee things, like horizon walker and dips into all of the full BAB classes you can access. That's limited to fighter, barbarian and ranger in this case, but that seems pretty good. Out of core, you can obviously do much better.

Edit: I forgot about the +4 strength you get at 10th level in the prestige class. It doesn't make much difference, because you lose two attack bonus to get there, but it's still worth mentioning.

[ericgrau]

You get enough stats to make up for lost BAB, plus nice saves, hp, etc. By level 4 all your lost attack bonus is replaced, with many more goodies on top of it. 4, 7 and 10 are good stopping points for that reason. It's a real stat monkey. FWIW the best at melee-ing in core is dragon disciple. Outside of core there are probably better options, but that's always the case.

And a trick I've used on caster dips is to get crazy wands and staffs; they may have higher spell levels than you. Adds a lot of utility.

[eggynack]

You get enough stats to make up for lost BAB, plus nice saves, hp, etc. 4, 7 and 10 are good stopping points for that reason. It's a real stat monkey. FWIW the best melee in core is dragon disciple. Outside of core there are probably better options, but that's always the case.

And a trick I've used on caster dips is to get crazy wands and staffs.
Feh, I prefer horizon walker for core melee prestige classes, as I mentioned. The abilities you get before planar terrains are pretty ok, and some of the planar ones are really good. Shifting in particular is useful to give core melee actual mobility, and cavernous and aligned are both quite decent. The entrance is pretty trivial, because you can just toss three reasonably useful ranger levels onto the build to get everything, and barbarian and fighter are great for the other levels. Here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7013.0) is a guide to the horizon tripper, which is often considered the best core melee build. It's not exactly a claim that's reaching for the stars, but it's pretty good. Significantly better than dragon disciple too in my estimation.

Edit: Also, on the wand thing, if I want access to wands and stuff I'm not going to take a level in sorcerer. I'm going to take a level in cleric, because one level cleric dips are phenomenal. They get a lot better out of core, where you get devotions out of them, but you get a lot of bang for your dipping buck, and one of the interesting things you can get is the magic domain for access to both wizard and cleric wands. Way better than a sorcerer dip at least.

[ericgrau]

I mean it's far better than any other core at actual melee. Hits harder, takes hits better, saves better, etc. than barbarian 20. Horizon walker looks fun but it's a real panzy and takes a very long time to come online with anything useful. I think before that guide people overlooked it for being weak. Being able to do 12 things is nice and helpful, but if you don't hit hard and can't take a hit either you can't keep up in your low op group or your high op group is wondering why you don't pick up some real magic and likewise you can't keep up.

The wand usage is just icing, something you get without giving any up any combat ability unlike a cleric dip and no prestige. Plus nothing => arcane is a far far bigger jump than arcane => arcane + divine. Fine for a utility monkey but I wouldn't sacrifice a melee's attack bonus for it.

[eggynack]

It's not great, but it's likely better than dragon disciple. Horizon walker gets some pretty cool abilities, and dragon disciple really doesn't. Losing out on iteratives from base attack bonus really hurts, and some ability boosts, relatively meaningless natural attacks, and a terrible breath weapon doesn't make up for it. tossing the boosts from horizon walker onto the largely ranger based chassis can get you some serious skill monkeying ability. I also can't really get over those two sequential levels where you're not gaining any bonuses to attack. The class makes up for it a little eventually, but you're left pretty weak in the interim.

[ericgrau]

I mean mathematically it's much better at melee thwacking than any other core. Really. As in I've done all the numbers. I don't mean to drag this out so long but I'm pretty amazed at all the fudgery and one sided observation. Not that there aren't other fun and more versatile options, but I can't believe there'd even be a dispute on how well it thwacks. Could trip too.

Anyhoo... got 4 good 4th level abjurations above before all this, out of 2 needed. So there ya go, initiate of the sevenfold vale. To explain greater resistance, it's only a +3 but it's 24 hours. Save the party thousands of gp on improved survivability. Any wall at level 4 is amazing, and wall of good is perhaps better than wall of ice or illusory wall. And mass energy resistance is what it says on the tin.

[The Grue]

Stormcaster is a pretty good fit thematically. Not the most powerful arcane PrC, but I've always wanted to run one.

[Leon]

Dracolexi is one ive wanted to try (although me being me I've wanted to try it with the other spontaneous casters more than the two its designed for)

[Psyren]

One of my personal favorites is Exalted Arcanist. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) It adds some really nice spells as choices for your spells known (e.g. the Planar Ally line and Holy Word), grants you added facility with two very handy metamagic feats for a good-aligned party, and best of all is the capstone - which adds every sanctified spell in the game to your spells known. Not a bad deal at level 11 I'd say.

Note that there are additional sanctified spells in Champions of Valor - you gain these too, so take a look through it. (Animate with the Spirit is an interesting one.)

[Grim Reader]

Eldritch Theurge to combine sorcerer and warlock. If you're going to combine warlock with a mage, it may as well be a sorcerer.

Not sure I agree. Sorcerer trades versatility in magic for supposedly more endurance and spammability. Warlock trades even more flexibility for even more endurance and spammability.

Despite cha synnergy, their strengths overlap without adding together, and they do not cover each others weak points. Warlock + Wizard is much better.

[Osiris]

I believe I have found a great prestige class

FATESPINNER! The example is actually first a sorcerer. All you need is profession (Gambler) 5 ranks, which helps flavor for Chaotic Good types. :smallwink: Did this help?

Also, yes 1 level cleric dips rock! But I have not yet done a dip :smallwink: What did you expect?

[Talya]

Heartwarder (Faiths & Pantheons, Forgotten Realms)
Incantatrix
Mage of the Arcane Order
Fatespinner
Heatfire Fanner
Shadowcraft Mage
Abjurant Champion
Sacred Exorcist

[Asrrin]

Archmage is also good, though you get it very late in the game. You large amount of spells per day helps to fuel the High Arcana requirements, and If you choose to grab SLAs you can retrain the spell you used for another spell! for instance, take teleport as an SLA and then trade out that spell known for something else!

[DarkEternal]

I second going into the Sand Shaper. It's got nice fluff that fits the sorcerer theme, especially if you dig the entire "Arabian nights" setting. The dead level can hurt, I guess but I think it's worth it considering what you get in return which is a whole boatload of spells(which is one of the Sorcerers greatest weakness), fun things you can do with sand, and at level ten of the class, you can just carry a bag of sand around you, tell your adventuring bodies that in case you die they bury you in said sand, and the next dawn, you are alive again as with true ress, only without paying anything for it.

Malconvoker is also a great one to go into. Since you are already limited with spells, but can cast them a great deal more often than most spellcasting classes, why not focus in summoning? Malconvoker is based on charisma as well, and if you have a really nice DM, he might even give you the variant spellcasting thing from a wizard(the one where he changes his familiar for the ability to shorten casting times, so casting Summon Monster would be a standard action, and not a full round one). You also lose a level or two in casting(though I think you can avoid those with some feats), but even without it, it's a pretty strong entry for a sorcerer. Just take Wings of Cover, which is an awesome sorcerer only spell and off you go!

[Eslin]

Sentinel of Bharrai is good, almost unbearably so.

[Psyren]

I believe I have found a great prestige class

FATESPINNER! The example is actually first a sorcerer. All you need is profession (Gambler) 5 ranks, which helps flavor for Chaotic Good types. :smallwink: Did this help?


Fatespinner is nice but it's only 5 levels long (4 if you don't care too much about the capstone) so it's handy to get another class as well. You also can't get in until level 8, while other PrCs are available at Sorcerer 5-6, so you'll have 2-3 more dead levels to fill while you wait.

[Deaxsa]

Incantrix is a fantastic class... It seems wizard based at first, but sorcerers use metamagic better, and it is really metamagic based.

just make sure that you A) are not taking spells known in the school you are going to ban, and B) get the ACF that takes away your familiar so you can metamagic without increasing casting time.

[Urpriest]

I mean mathematically it's much better at melee thwacking than any other core. Really. As in I've done all the numbers. I don't mean to drag this out so long but I'm pretty amazed at all the fudgery and one sided observation. Not that there aren't other fun and more versatile options, but I can't believe there'd even be a dispute on how well it thwacks. Could trip too.

I don't know about anything in core... Druid 8/Barbarian 12 is in Core, after all, and can likely get better stats and more natural attacks, which are the Dragon Disciple's only real advantages in that department.

But yeah, Horizon Walker is great in core because it gives versatility, not because it outdamages a Dragon Disciple.

[eggynack]

Sentinel of Bharrai is good, almost unbearably so.
You fool! You mustn't unleash the might of bear puns upon this thread. I couldn't bear it. There must be a claws somewhere stopping prohibiting this cruelty. I'm really grappling with the horror of it all. The effect on a thread is so often grizzly and polarizing that there's no escape.

[ericgrau]

Archmage is also good, though you get it very late in the game. You large amount of spells per day helps to fuel the High Arcana requirements, and If you choose to grab SLAs you can retrain the spell you used for another spell! for instance, take teleport as an SLA and then trade out that spell known for something else!

I prefer elements, shaping, and sometimes spell power with the right shenanigans. What I would do as a sorcerer with the SLA is to take a 3rd or 4th level spell as an SLA then immediately pick up the quicken SLA feat to get quicken as a sorcerer without losing any high level spell slots. Then you can nova for 3 rounds every fight with max level spells and quickened spells without running out. But there are other ways to get quicken too.

It's a bit dangerous and costly to obsess over the sorcerer's spells known as if they were the biggest weakness when they are the farthest thing from it. You are losing other nice options with this unhealthy obsession and by the time you get into archmage you know plenty of spells already. At level 6 a couple extra 3rd level spells known would be nice if you can get them, but as you get into higher and higher level you already have a lot of options.

[Urpriest]

I prefer elements, shaping, and sometimes spell power with the right shenanigans. What I would do as a sorcerer with the SLA is to take a 3rd or 4th level spell as an SLA then immediately pick up the quicken SLA feat to get quicken as a sorcerer without losing any high level spell slots. But there are other ways to get quicken.


Come to think of it, are there in Core? Thinking from a Core perspective (yes, not what this thread is dealing with here), this actually seems like the only way for a Sorceror to get Quicken.

[ericgrau]

Correct. Quicken SLA is quite amazing in core. And ya, I didn't want to tangent too much in a general thread. Core or not, quicken SLA is also nice for others who can't get quicken spell for some reason, like those who have SLAs but not true casting.

[gorfnab]

Ruathar (RotW) - easy to get into, advances spellcasting, gives lots of skill points to use for qualifying for other prestige classes

[Zweisteine]

Sand Shaper has the glorious class feature of learning as many bonus spells as a twentieth-level sorcerer gets without any bonus spells known. Yes, that many. 43 bonus spells. And some of them are at lower levels than normal (bear's endurance, bull's strength, and cat's grace as level 1 spells).
It also has free resurrection as a capstone.

Also, if you are planning on playing a sorcerer, you should try to convince your DM to add this houserule (I, starting now, call it the "odd sorcerer variant"): Sorcerers learn and cast spells as if they were one level higher. This means a third-level sorcerer, for example, gets second-level spells, just like a third-level wizard. This allows the sorcerers to keep up, and to lose more casting levels, which is especially important to a class with as few spells known as a sorcerer. (I call it "odd sorcerers" because they get spell levels on odd levels, of course. :smallwink:)

EDIT:

Ruathar (RotW) - easy to get into, advances spellcasting, gives lots of skill points to use for qualifying for other prestige classes
This might not be so easy to get into. It effectively (not by RAW, but by flavor, and by some DMs' ruling) requires an invitation, and some DMs might not let your elven party-fellow invite you.

[Amphetryon]

EDIT:

This might not be so easy to get into. It effectively (not by RAW, but by flavor, and by some DMs' ruling) requires an invitation, and some DMs might not let your elven party-fellow invite you.
The issue here is that 'by some DMs' ruling' is an unknown and unknowable limiter on every. single. aspect. of the game, so concerns about what random DM Zeta-Bop might or might not allow are not especially helpful. If building for a specific DM's campaign, of course, knowing what that particular DM rules in these cases is vital.

[Lokd0wn]

Anyhoo... got 4 good 4th level abjurations above before all this, out of 2 needed. So there ya go, initiate of the sevenfold vale. To explain greater resistance, it's only a +3 but it's 24 hours. Save the party thousands of gp on improved survivability. Any wall at level 4 is amazing, and wall of good is perhaps better than wall of ice or illusory wall. And mass energy resistance is what it says on the tin.

A level 4 Abjuration I'm quite keen on is Nezram's Emerald Energy Shield from LEoF. It's got some crap about sonic resistance and bonuses to saves vs sonic but the important thing is the blanket immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects. It is only 1-min/level but it's quite nice a stop gap for Mind Blank.

[Zweisteine]

The issue here is that 'by some DMs' ruling' is an unknown and unknowable limiter on every. single. aspect. of the game, so concerns about what random DM Zeta-Bop might or might not allow are not especially helpful. If building for a specific DM's campaign, of course, knowing what that particular DM rules in these cases is vital.

This is true, but the Ruathar is something of a special case. It is the "elf-friend" class, and so requires elves to be your friends (well, not quite, but that's the basic gist). I'd guess it's far more likely that DMs will require you to actually meet the somewhat-flavor-based-prerequisite of "you must have performed a great service to an elf community, such as participating in the defeat of a monster of at least CR 10, recovering a valuable elven magic item, or risking death in order to save an elf's life."

[BowStreetRunner]

I actually did a piece on some of the sorcerer's options a while back that you can check out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?294500-The-Improved-Sorcerer). As you can see, there are quite a few options depending on what you are looking for.

[Mizr]

Dip a few levels into Elemental Savant, and go into Frostmage as well. Metamagic spellshaper, and you've got a mean cold mage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Add in another vote for Sandshaper or Mage of the Arcane Order. Or both, if you can fit them in somehow.

[HighWater]

(MotAO)
It's helpful but remember, you need to jury-rig your way in with Arcane Preparation. You also get less use out of the spellpool than a wizard would - you can only pay your magedebt with prepared spells, meaning you can only pay it with the spell you have prepared in your AP, rather than with a combination of lower spells as a wizard might choose to do.

You don't have to pay the pool back immediately though. You get 1 day respite per level you have in MotAO, which may lead to you paying off the spellpool debt with prepared spells during downtime, that's pretty awesome. As long as your respite still holds, you can keep using the Pool every day (racking up a debt if you must) without paying back. Not paying back in time only means you can't use it 'til you do pay back (just don't let it take longer than a year)...
Although sorcerers have trouble with sacrificing "today's spells", MotAO-sorcerers have two advantages over wizards:

- Wizards need to explicitly leave spellslots -open- in order to be able to cast from the spellpool. They generally only leave a few slots open (for the 15-minute preparation trick), so combining that with Spellpool access is the source of some decision-stress (am I going to leave -two- slots open for every spell-level, or just chance it). A sorcerer can decide to prepare some spells if that fits his strategic scheme, but he will pretty much always have open spellslots as long as he can still cast spells of the needed level. That's nice.

- Both wizards and sorcerers pay double for spells cast from the pool (once with the open spellslot of appropriate level, which gets "cast", and once with one or more prepared spells to pay the spellpool debt). Sorcerers tend to have more spellslots to play with, so that's a bonus.

Summary for sorcerers: Be an irresponsible debter! Cast now, worry about paying back later! (Just prepare spells on the day you expect you can spare them, then use them to repay at the end of that day, you can afford to burn some spellslots for extra versatility in moments of need.) MotAO is absolute sorcerer gold, too bad it's got a pretty nasty feat tax (cooperative spell is quite useless, blowing a feat on Arcane Preparation is just painful, maybe try to convince your DM you don't need thatone ;) ) You get a refund on those feats though: it gives you 2 MM feats during progression, so it's still definitely a net win over Sorc20.

[Dr. Azkur]

Sorcerer is the best way into Anima Mage.
Lose 1 Caster Level and spend a feat but get like ten thousand goodies in return. Including the amazing ability to persist any spell from 0 to 9.

[zingbobco000]

It seems as if this thread is back up, sooooooo...

I give my vote to incantrix which like anima mage allows you to persist any spell. The requirements are also quite easy and you gain some other nifty goodies like the ability to do apply metamagic to wands etc...

I also give a vote to Ultimate Magus because if you use loredrake, GDRoP, and the increase in casting thanks to the dragonspawn template, you get a finishing casting of: SOR 18 (level 9 spells) / WIZ 13 (level 7 spells) now here's the interesting thing. Take spellhoarding and you get 31 having a nice caster level of 31 at level 20 is good some spells. I like the non-spellhoarding route though.