What weapons would pierce armor?

[scarmiglionne4]

Are there any supplements or threads that cover this?

[The Grue]

Not sure exactly what you're asking, could you be a little more specific? Anything that hits on a Touch attack could be interpreted as "piercing" armor. In Pathfinder, firearms do this within their first range increment.

[NeoPhoenix0]

brilliant energy enhancement from core. does not work against undead or constructs and does not pierce natural armor or armor made of living wood.

[sonofzeal]

....wut? A little context would be appreciated.

If you want to make a weapon bypass armor by attacking "touch AC" as opposed to "regular AC", there's a number of ways to do this.

- Impaling weapon property (+1; 3/day; only works on piercing weapons)

- Wraithstrike spell (1 round)

- Emerald Razor maneuver (special standard action attack; 1/encounter)

- Brilliant weapon propert (doesn't bypass Natural armor; weapon can't hurt undead/constructs)

[scarmiglionne4]

To be more specific: I am not looking for weapons or abilities that bypass armor, I am looking for weapons that penetrate armor, like the warhammer penetrates that soldiers helmet near the beginning of Braveheart.

I am looking for weapons that could have the ability to strike armor and possibly go right through it, damaging the armor and the person inside it.

[ericgrau]

Technically they all do when they hit. IIRC armor is mainly to deflect blows not absorb them, and a direct hit will punch right through it like a nail through an aluminum can. Plate thick enough to withstand a direct stab would weigh over 200 lbs. At 50 lbs. the PHB stuff is under 1/16" thick and probably a bit less considering the weight of padding and overlapping sections. Maybe 1/32". Basically metal sheet.

Sure there are chinks, but hitting one is a lot more difficult.

I think this falls under combat abstractions with attack bonus and AC. The specifics of how the weapon hits are up to DM descriptions.

It would then seem like most attacks damage armor, but then why isn't this tracked and the armor eventually destroyed? Why can't you sunder armor? Think of how much it would actually take to make the armor fall off. By then the wearer would be dead 100 times over. Calling for routine minor repairs is something more realistic that gets hand-waived though. But meh, so does pooping.

EDIT: Looked into it some more. Nevermind.

[bobthehero]

Bec-de-Corbin, Halberds, Billhooks, longsword/bastard-sword if half-swording, warhammers, most 2 handed blunt weapons and polearms, morningstars (2 handed prefered).

1h swords are terrible against armor, you can stab, but that'll probably only pierce up to mail armor, 1h weapons are going to struggle against plate armor in general.

Anything with a long spike and preferably two handed is going to work well. Half-swording is a style with the longsword where you hold it like a spear, gives a meaner punch to your stabs.

[The Grue]

To be more specific: I am not looking for weapons or abilities that bypass armor, I am looking for weapons that penetrate armor, like the warhammer penetrates that soldiers helmet near the beginning of Braveheart.

I am looking for weapons that could have the ability to strike armor and possibly go right through it, damaging the armor and the person inside it.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but have you even played with the D20 system? You seem to have some misconceptions about how the system handles armor. It's not damage reduction.

If what you're looking for is not "bypassing" armor by ignoring armor and natural armor bonuses to AC, then what is the precise mechanical effect you're looking for?

[bobthehero]

Assuming that piercing armor would reduce the AC of said armor?

You'd have an easier time to hit the fleshy bits because what you're holding might just straight up punch through.

[Rhynn]

You should probably ask in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255453).

Generally, real weapons did not pierce real armor. Warhammers and weapons with similar heads (tiny, sharp; bec de corbin, lucerne hammer) might do it in a pinch, but basically no other weapon (thrusting or not) is going to puncture steel plates. Swords with very sharply tapered tips (like 14th/15th century two-handed war-swords, AKA longswords) might pierce mail to an inch or so, but no deeper (they're very unlikely to break riveted links).

The default was always to go around armor. Harnischfechten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword#Harnischfechten) involved grappling, using the sword as a lever, half-swording to aim the point precisely, and using daggers.

Incidentally warhammer is like this (http://www.ritterruestung-handgeschmiedet.de/englishversion/weapons/pictures/warhammer.jpg) or this (http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/images/Category/medium/20.png), never ever like this (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110411224709/jvs/images/2/2f/Warhammer_render.jpg).

Incidentally, Conan d20 uses armor DR and weapon Armor Penetration (various weapons ignore different amounts of armor DR). It's slightly misguided because of the above, but a pretty fine system anyway. (And you can in fact try to go around your opponent's armor completely.)

[scarmiglionne4]

I'm sorry to be blunt, but have you even played with the D20 system? You seem to have some misconceptions about how the system handles armor. It's not damage reduction.

If what you're looking for is not "bypassing" armor by ignoring armor and natural armor bonuses to AC, then what is the precise mechanical effect you're looking for?

I have played it, yes. I am going to be using variant massive damage threshold rules. I basically want armor to protect against that to some extent, but have an armor piercing weapon ignore that protection and damage the armor at the same time.

Thanks to Rhynn. I will head over there.

[Andezzar]

The game system is not equipped to handle that kind of detail, it is much more abstract. It does not matter if the armor is pierced or not. A hit is a hit and damages your hit points. That is it. You cannot translate hit point damage in some sort of real world sharp or blunt traumata.

Just look at a hit by an arrow doing 5 points of damage. If that arrow hits a first level commoner, he will be out of the fight and dead soon. If that same arrow hits a fist level fighter, he will not be slowed down by it at all. Only the next hit might stop him.

BTW what "variant massive damage threshold rules" are you talking about?

[Rhynn]

The game system is not equipped to handle that kind of detail, it is much more abstract. It does not matter if the armor is pierced or not. A hit is a hit and damages your hit points. That is it. You cannot translate hit point damage in some sort of real world sharp or blunt traumata.

This is nonsense. Conan d20 is the same game with four additions/changes: AC is replaced by Parry Defense and Dodge Defense, armor has DR, weapons have an AP value, and you can try to bypass armor on an attack.

[Andezzar]

This is nonsense. Conan d20 is the same game with four additions/changes: AC is replaced by Parry Defense and Dodge Defense, armor has DR, weapons have an AP value, and you can try to bypass armor on an attack.With game system I meant 3.5 not any d20 system. I'm not familiar with Conan D20, but doesn't it still have the problem that a) a mundane attack does damage once and nothing more (no bleeding) and b) as long as you have at least 1 HP you are at full fighting power?

[Gavinfoxx]

Conan D20 is good, but Codex Martialis is GREAT, for this kind of thing!

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/65250/Codex-Martialis-Set-%5BBUNDLE%5D

D&D 3.5e is terrible for this kind of thing. That answer your question?

[Slipperychicken]

Armor isn't supposed to be damaged in d20, but PF has 3rd party Crystal materials, and weapons made of that stuff partially ignore armor bonuses (True Crystal weapons completely ignore such bonuses but break on a natural 1). They don't damage the armor, though.

[scarmiglionne4]

BTW what "variant massive damage threshold rules" are you talking about?

Something like those used in Thieves World. It is also mentioned in Unearthed Arcana.