War Hulk Handbook

[Immabozo]

I haven't found one and since I have recently fallen in love with this class, I've decided to write one!

Also, this is a work in progress, adding more and more over time, so I will jump around a bit and add suggestions as they are made in random sections.

War Hulk
Entry Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Cleave
Special: must be size large or larger

Introduction:
A War Hulk is the definition of a beat stick. He or she is all beat stick. Without questionable cheese, not possible for a skill monkey, no spells (for most war hulk build's, anyway), no class features that do anything more than one thing: make you the biggest beat stick you can be. As far as straight damage, few this side of TO can match you Spread over many targets, you can hit TO numbers, without making the DM cry and throwing the whole bookshelf at you. Yes, there are more optimized PrC, yes, there are some PrC that may be able to do more damage to a single target. Magic users can be more effective than you. But you are a beast in a straight up fight. If you manage to find yourself in a low magic campaign that's at war and you are in the middle of it, that's heaven for this class and where it shines. Few that will be scarier than you on the battlefield. And your party will be happy they brought you to battle.

A War Hulk will easily be upstaged by mildly optimized casters (unless they are fans of damage spells, which do less damage than a war hulk, or many optimized fighter types). But, if you are playing a fighter type, you already know that and expect it, or you are in a low magic world-type scenario, in which case, I envy you and applaud this choice! But there is one thing those mages will be very grateful of you for, drawing fire away from them. Nothing is scarier than a 10 foot super body builder wildly swinging a very large weapon of whatever kind and hitting lots of people. Plus, just cause you are upstaged, doesn't mean you are out shined, neither does it mean you will have any less fun.

Plus, I personally love the Barbarian to War Hulk flavor.

Races and templates:

Well, there are quite a few entry possibilities. I dont pretend to know nearly all of them (feel free to add to the list).

LA -2 - EASY CHEESE WARNING!!

Incarnate Construct, from SS: This template added onto something, like warforged, makes you have a -2 LA. So adding a template that makes you large, like the Dragon Mag half ogre and half minotaur templates (if you grow only 1 size category, only a +1 LA) and then another +1 LA template, for 0 LA.

LA 0, if you are using a template, putting it on a LA +0 race is possible (although, one +0 LA and 3 RHD template that gets large size is included here):

Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, Savage Species: yes, you can exist outside water, you also retain at least some of you underwater capabilities. +8 str, +4 dex, +4 con, +4 wis, +9 NA, 30 ft land movement speed, decent skills, a great option!

Dwarf, PHB: the bonus to saves is nice, the bonuses are all in the right spots. But the real gem of this choice is the treatment of a Dwarven War axe as a martial weapon and not exotic. But, then, the Exotic proficiency thing is gotten around for the price of a +2 bonus, so it evens the playing field. See the equipment section.

Elf, PHB: the hit to con may or may not be a huge problem, mostly depending on build and feats. The dex can give Combat Reflexes another AoO, which with knockback and power attack and high strength, could result in pushing them back too far for them to attack again, or pushing them back at least 10 feet so they provoke another AoO, better than the extra 20 hit points at level 20, is the opportunity and, if you hit, probability, of pushing them back and thus breaking their charge and avoiding the attack. Its a debatable trade off, again, depending on the build.

Gnome, or any small race, PHB and varying books: a very bad choice because it's a small race, with one exception. If the full Dragon Magazine versions of Half minotaur and half Ogre templates are legalized (and if they are, you should be scared about what your DM has in store for you). That's size large, +18 str, -4 dex, +10 con, -4 int, -2 cha 5 NA (And the +4 AC VS giants is just too funny) mediocre SLA, +2 spot, search and +4 on listen checks and other minor bonuses, all for a LA +2, Good luck finding a DM to let it fly though! Similar story for most any small race.

The exception for the small races, that most DM's should allow, is the Golliath Barbarian substitution levels, which, when you rage, make you large. (As The Random NPC mentioned) you can paint yourself green and say "You're making me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry."

Human, PHB: the feat is a decent bonus, the extra skills are nice, you get precious few, but not the best choice, unless your build is feat hungry.

Water Orc is another good one. +4 str, +2 con, -2 to all mental stats are nice, Not a bad choice.

LA +1:

Feral, Savage Species: this is a cool template, but it doesn't make you large. I dont recommend it unless you already have large and want more.

Half Minotaur: From Dragon Magazine, this is a template, so you can put it on top of something else, although this is of questionable legality. +1 size category (to a maximum of large), +10 foot movement speed, a gore attack, dark vision, +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, +2 NA +2 on spot, search and listen, track as a bonus feat, always instinctively know where north is, and a few other bonuses. The broken part of this template is the little line "if it gains a size category with the addition of this template, gain the size modifiers AS PER THE MONSTER MANUAL" emphasis my own. That means for small to medium, +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, +2 NA, from medium to large. This is a great template without that one line. With it, possibly the most broken template ever.

Half Ogre: this is, again, a template, again, from the Dragon Magazine which is only a +1 LA if you gain a size category out of it. +1 size category (unless already large), gaining the benefits as per the gaining a size category in the monster manual (see half minotaur), if gaining the size category, +10 feet movement, dark vision, giant blood, +4 str, -2 int, -2 cha, +2 NA

Both of these templates are great and quite easily (more) balanced by forgetting the "gaining the benefits as per the gaining a size category as per the monster manual" line. Nerfed or not, if your DM gives these templates the green light, I recommend taking them. One can go on top of the other is really good, too, even nerfed and is still only a +1 LA if only one size category is gained and good bonuses, really good.

Maug, Fiend Folio: If you slap the Incarnate Construct spell/template on this baby, you'll have a +1 LA, 2RHD giant, size large and is a fairly good choice. Good bonuses, and large, at a low cost. (Thanks to Kazyan for pointing this one out!)

Mineral Warrior, Underdark: This is a great template, but it does not give size large, go you will have to get it from another source.

LA +2:

Anthropomorphic Elephant, Savage Species: Template, 3 RHD Large size, huge str boost, and a few other bonuses, good NA, decent skills, not a bad choice. African Elephant vs Asain Elephant is a call you gotta make, 2 more str vs 2 wisdom. Presonally, I'd go for the wisdom, since your STR is already gonna be sky high. BUT, with "Steadfast Determination" (see feat section) wisdom losses most of it's benefit.

Centaur: 4 RHD, not a horrible choice, but definitely better choices. Large size, but only 5 foot reach. High cost with 2 LA and 4 RHD, and lack of reach. But the stats are really nice. If the centaur had reach, it would be a decent choice. (Thanks to Khedrac for bringing this one to my attention) Although Centaurs are part of a TO build combining war hulk with hulking hurler, since your carrying capacity goes up, you can throw heavier stuff, dealing more and more damage

Half Ogre: from Races of Destiny (not a template) +6 str, -2 dex +2 con, -2 intelligence, NA 4 size large, giant type, 30 ft movement, darkvision. A good option, one of the lowest LA races, nice bonuses, not too bad on the negatives and the big one, large size!!

Lycanthrope, inflicted, MM: The RHD all depends on the creature chosen The DR is nice, gives a bonus to will saves, one of your weak saves, but the one save that really matters out of the two (mind effecting vs taking half damage is a big difference). Also, lycanthrope qualifies you for some Wildshaping PrC, like War Shaper.

lycanthrope animals

1 RHD:

Pheonixkin, Dragon Magic: are a decent option. Only 1 RHD and pounce and decent, if minimal stats, but no negatives. But the pounce is the big selling point on this one.

2 RHD:

3 RHD:

4 RHD:

5 RHD:

6 RHD:

Brown Bear, MM: big cost, but big bonuses, really big bonuses, one of the extra feats you get is the useless prereq (endurance) for a feat I highly suggest (steadfast determination). Also, large size in animal and hybrid forms.

Tiger, MM: Again, good bonuses. Not weighed so heavily in favor of Str, like the Brown Bear, but more evenly distributed between Str, dex and con (not evenly, just more so), but less overall pluses to stats. Feats that will, for the most part, be useless to you. Although, the warhulk ability to hit all in range and then, from tiger lycanthrope, grapple everyone hit would be funny, assuming you can figure out how to make your claw attacks or bite attacks a "melee weapon". Also, large size in animal and hybrid forms.

I dont recommend anything more than 6 RHD. A RHD cost that high is still inadvisable. Past 6 RHD, you are definitely making the monster character, which is not a problem, that's just a different handbook.

LA +3:

Half Dragon, MM: A decent option. I have a friend that I have never seen play a fight-type without this template, but I am unsure it is as amazing as he thinks it is. Breath weapon does not scale with levels and is quickly outgrown, immunities are nice, bonuses are decent, Flight might be nice, seeing as large is already your goal, mixed with dungeoncrasher fighter could be fun. Not a bad choice.

Half Fiend, MM: More heavily weighted on the defense side of things than a half dragon. Giving up breath weapon (which you, very soon, are unlikely to miss) in favor of defensive capabilities. Again the same story with flight mentioned in the Half Dragon entry. Not a bad choice, but there are better. But fluff-wise, this is one I personally feel goes really well with War Hulk (at least the evil War Hulk).

Lycanthrope, natural: slightly higher DR, perfect control over shape, and a few other bonuses are nice. The DR and perfect control over the shape make it a good option, although the RHD for this choice should be lower to make this viable.

Entry classes:

Barbarian: A very good option and for my taste, flavor wise, the best lead into the war hulk PrC. The various ACF can give this class a lot of flexibility. Pounce, an extra attack, more AC vs less, improved trip feat, the list goes on! I suggest Whirling, mixed with steadfast determination, makes your rage infinitely better with no downsides at no cost and spirit lion totem ACF trades away the fast movement of 10 ft (5 ft is a regular feat) for pounce (an epic feat, and it damn well deserves it's spot in the ranks of epic feats).

Cleric, PHB: I know, an odd one, right? Well, with DMM Persist shenanigans, the cleric buffs will be a huge boon. Getting level 4 spells for divine power, or level 5 for righteous might (also makes you large! DMM persisting this one is a nice alternative to LA races!), plus the bonuses from whatever domains you take. I highly suggest the one that gives the MM feat Extend and maybe "Lust" which will give you a temporary bonus to char equal to your cleric level, you'll get an extra DMM persist out of that one.

Other Prestige Classes:

Bear Warrior, CW: This one will require a RAW vs RAI arguments. You get ridiculous bonuses on your rage. As written, the class contradicts itself from on paragraph to the next. The fist says when you rage, you may turn into a bear and the only limit on the number of times you can turn into a bear is the number of times you can rage. The next paragraph says you can turn into a bear only once per day. The Errata corrects this, but does not change one thing. Regardless of your form, rage gives you the bear bonuses. It actually says you do not gain the stats of the bear form, but you get the stated bonuses.

RAI/W counter argument. It is rather obvious that the class was meant to get the bonuses when in a bear form when raging. Also, the final line in the above paragraph, That is to make it bonuses when raging, not make in the bear stats when raging, which may or may not be much of a bonus (it isn't to a war hulk!)

Hulking Hurler, CW: this is a scary good choice. It is the choice to go for the TO war hulk dealing upwards of way too much damage on average (like 200D6, but the math is a lot of work and I looked at it and decided I didn't want to do all that work!). I highly recommend not going with Hulking Hurler if you want to avoid having books, dice, cats, small children and any other projectiles lying around, thrown at you. But if you are set on it, I recommend making yourself a very large and very heavy object with the returning enchantment on it and then feel free to pimp it out as you see fit.

War Shaper, CW: This one is a little harder to qualify for, by lycanthropes qualify nicely, but immunity to crits, +4 str, +4 con, 5 Ft longer reach, fast healing, all amazing upgrades for the War Hulk, all the bonuses exactly where we want them! Level 5 of the PrC is useless, never take it as a War Hulk. But if you qualify for it, not a bad one to go for.

Feats:

Awesome Blow, MM: A few prereques, the 25 Str and large requirements are not a problem for any self respecting War Hulk, the feat pre reqs are (in the case of power attack) probably a feat you should take, or (improved bullrush) if you are looking to replace the knockback/shock trooper/dungeoncrasher fighter combo (which it is a decent alternative to them, although much more limited, but its all rolled up into one feat) it is the same prereq feat you would have to take anyway. For a build short on feats and not available for the two level dip, this is a good option. Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) instead of opposed check is a toss up. You throw them back a set distance no matter how much they fail by and the larger your opponents, the less dex they will (likely) have and lower reflex saves, but then the smaller, the bigger bonuses to dex and thus, reflex. It is, in that way, the opposite of the knockback opposed check because the scale for who gets bonuses is backwards, but your bonuses on bullrushes should be so high that you dont care (if you go that route). Also, no synergy with Power attack and very little with Combat Brute makes me sad. Overall, unless the feat selection you have only has limited space and you want this effect, I suggest skipping this one.

Cleave: Its a prereq, so it's a must. Plus, the cleave gets especially good when you start hitting multiple squares each hit.

Cleave, Greater: No extra cleaves for dropping more than one foe per hit. Good, but not great. When you are hitting everything in range, this feat has limited usefulness. Although It does have usefulness. In some builds, like the knockback build, this is counter-synergistic.

Combat Reflexes: Good if you have good dex, useless without it. Depends on the build, but many large creatures take a hit to dex, fortunately, cheap magical bonuses can be added and barbarian ACF and a few other options are available for increasing this.

Combat Brute: Mediocre unless on the right build. Situational bonus to power attack, a sundering tactic (which your DM might rule to let you take it out of the feat for the loss of the "improved sunder" prereq, I know I would, I consider it, sundering, an underwhelming tactic, for the most part, but an extremely underwhelming tactic for a war hulk) and a bonus to hit and damage for bull rushing. On the knockback build, it is very good. On others, really bad.

Endurance: the feat that I, and many others I am sure, love to hate. It is fairly useless, but it is a pre-req for a lot of other stuff, including, steadfast determination, which I recommend.

Improved Sunder: This feat is craptastic with a side of wast. A war hulk, when sundering, only sunders the first target it hits, all other squares are only subject to a "normal" attack. The only time this feat is worth taking, is to then take combat brute, assuming your DM doesn't make the ruling I mention in the "Combat Brute" feat.

Knockback: Closest thing to battlefield control the war hulk will ever get outside class features. Might be a waste for you, or the keystone to your build.

Leap Attack: Make a jump check you should auto make after only a short while to get more out of Power Attack. Great choice

Power Attack: A fantastic damage boost, especially if you take the Shock Trooper feat, also a prereq for a few others I recommend it VERY highly.

Shock Trooper: This feat gives a nice option to the loss of to hit from power attack. Also, it's downside is nicely protected by the knockback feat, if you take it, and it adds a little flexibility and utility to your power attacks.

Steadfast Determination: By level 10 or so, you should be auto making pretty much all fort saves ever, since you no longer fail on a 1, I loved auto making anything less than a 30 fort save, just laughing when my DM would tell me to make a fort save. Plus, your con instead of wis on will saves? Turns a bad save into a good one, or on many of the high con racial builds you have to make, a great one! Also, if taking Barbarian to enter this PrC, it turns the big downside of barbarian rage's various ACF downside (loss of will) into a strength, or at least covering the downside.

Equipment

Weapons

Dwarven War Axe: Unless you are a dwarf, requires a feat to use, if not a dwarf, it is not really worth it at all, unless you use the skillful enchantment (see below). This deals only slightly less damage as a greataxe, except that it is one handed! Yes, you could use a shield, but that is short changing yourself. 1D10 as a one handed medium weapon, upgrade it once to large (2D8), once more (to huge) for 2 handed (3D8), another one (gargantuan) if you have monkey grip or giant blooded or something that lets you wield a weapon of a size larger than you otherwise could, for 6D8 and greater enlarge from a friendly mage will get you up to stupid numbers (for 2 size categories, 12D8). I'm sure you can tell I really like this option, at least on the right build I do. (thanks to Monticularis for correcting my damage calculations)

Greataxe: a good option, some of the best damage on a 2 handed weapon.

Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer: Another good choice in my opinion. 1D12 19-20x4 debatably worth the feat. If you are gonna spend the feat, this is a better option that Dwarven War Axe.

Weapon mods

Berserker, MIC: Useless unless on a character with rage. Not a bad choice if you can use it. +1 bonus.

Bodyfeeder, MIC: Again, one of those bonuses that is far more beneficial for the war hulk than most. On a successful crit, granting temp hit points + to 1/2 damage dealt. On a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer, across three targets, given, say, +20 damage, will be 26 x 4 x .5 x 3 = 156 temp hitpoints. Getting better with more damage and more targets. Great choice. +3 bonus.

Keen/impact, DMG : doubles crit range on a slashing/bludgeoning weapon. Great on the Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer! 17-20/x4! +1 bonus

Skillful, CA: uniquely great for the War Hulk! Treated as proficient with the weapon (No need for the feat with those fun exotic weapons!) And treated as if you have 3/4 BAB, like a cleric of equivalent level. Very nice for the War Hulk! +2 bonus

Vorpal, DMG. This is much better for a War Hulk than any other. Potentially severing multiple heads, or (at level 10 when you hit all squares) many heads. Makes it good enough to be considered. +5 bonus

Crystals

Crystal of Energy Assault, MIC: Least, Lesser, Greater, each does increasing amounts of elemental damage. Lesser and Greater do +1D6, greater with an additional effect.
Fire immunity is unfortunately, the most common immunity to encounter of the choices, shame, it's a nice added bonus on greater
Acid lowers the AC of all hit by 1 (but only by one, only for 1 round, but is a more uncommon immunity.

Crystal of Life Drinking, MIC: Basically the opposite of DR, healing you per hit. Not a bad choice, but by far not the best. A war hulk will get more mileage out of some other crystals, more than most. Only works 10 times per day.

Fiendslayer Crystal, MIC: if you plan to fight a lot of evil extraplanar creatures, not a bad option. Fairly useless otherwise.

Phoenix Ash Threat, MIC: Not bad, damage is not variable, with a higher fixed value (5 VS 1D6) when compared to equivalent crystals, however, fixed fire damage and it is the most common of the energy immunities. Although it may fit with the flavor of some characters really well.

Truedeath Crystal, MIC: Same as Fiendslayer Crystal, but for undead.

Witchlight Reservoir, MIC: Limited charges, but 5/day is fairly decent. Decent effects, too.

You can also coat your weapon with poisons, and there is a drug you can cover your blade with, see the "weaponizing drugs" section.

Weaponize Drugs!

Luhix, this is a drug from Book of Vile Darkness: This is a decidedly evil act! Cover your blade with Luhix makes every hit against someone beyond the first, a save-or-die (DC 25 fortitude). It also has another effect of everyone who is hit with your weapon is wracked with intense pain for 1 minute, no saving throw. Then there is a saving throw or every ability score is lowered by one, for 1 minute and another saving throw a minute later for the "attractive" effect of the drug, but they will be dead by then. It is also the single most addictive drug in the BoVD.


(I know this is jumping ahead, but I cant help myself)

Example Builds

2 Handed combat brute

DM okays a nerfed version of the half minotaur and the half ogre templates from Dragon Mag (no further increase in stats due to size increase) Base race: half-orc (Its kinda Man Bear Pig, he's half orc, half ogre, half minotaur)

Level 20, Whirling spirit lion totem 1 LA/Barbarian 5/fighter 2/Bear Warrior 1 (I'll go into my RAW argument for this dip later)/War Hulk 10/War Shaper 1, 2 flaws

stats:
Str 44 (14 natural, +4 half minotaur +4 half ogre +2 half orc +20 War Hulk)
Dex 15 (15 natural)
Con 24 (17 natural, +2 half minotaur, +5 level advancement)
Int 4 (10 natural, -2 minotaur -2 half ogre -2 half orc)
Wis 9 (9 natural)
Cha 6 (10 natural, -2 half ogre -2 half orc)

BAB: 7 (with listed weapon, 15)
Natural Armor 6 (+4, half minotaur +2, half ogre)
Space/Reach: 10ft/10 ft

Special Qualities:
Pounce,
Darkvision 60ft
immune to crits
Rage: +8 str, +2 Dex, +4 con, +2 (untyped) natural AC, +2 dodge bonus to AC, +4 reflex saves (con also give the +2 will saves, thanks to steadfast determination) all attacks at -2 and another attack at highest attack bonus.
Massive Swing: Hits all within reach (except the squares you dont want to hit)

Items: Skillful, impact, Bodyfeeder Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer +1 +32/+27/+22 (+33/+33/+28/+23 when raging) 3D6 +25 (+30 when raging)

level 1: LA
level 2: Barbarian (Whirling spirit lion totem variant)
level 3: Barbarian (Whirling spirit lion totem variant)
level 4: Barbarian (Whirling spirit lion totem variant)
level 5; Barbarian (Whirling spirit lion totem variant)
level 6: Barbarian (Whirling spirit lion totem variant)
level 7: Fighter
level 8: Fighter
level 9: Bear Warrior
level 10: War Hulk
level 11: War Hulk
level 12: War Hulk
level 13: War Hulk
level 14: War Hulk
level 15: War Hulk
level 16: War Hulk
level 17: War Hulk
level 18: War Hulk
level 19: War Hulk
level 20: War Shaper

Feats:

Flaw: Cleave
Flaw: Combat Reflexes
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Leap Attack
6th: Improved Bullrush
Fighter bonus feat: Knockback
Fighter bonus feat: Endurance
9th: Steadfast Determination
12th: Shock Trooper
15th: Combat Brute
18th:

Tactics: Rage and charge into a group, the bigger the better. Auto makes anything less than a DC 21 jump check off strength alone. Full power attack at -15 to AC (from shock trooper) for a +45 damage per hit. 4 attacks hitting everyone in reach dealing 3D6 +75 per hit, an average of 93 damage per hit, to up to 16 opponents for a possible average of 1488, given enough targets. On a crit (17-20 for x4!), that's up to an average of 5952 damage, which grants up to 2976 temporary hit points.

After the hit, bullrush attempt against all of them (knockback) at d20 +69 and then for each square you bush them back, another +1 to hit and damage in the next round. Even if you roll a 1 and they roll a 20, you will still beat them by, likely 40+, which means 9 squares and a +9 to hit and damage against any of them in the next round. And then if they provoke any of your, what should be many, AoO, this number only grows.

Since you have pounce, you should be charging every round and full power attacking and, every round after the first, Combat Brute brings your Power attack up from -1 to hit (or AC) for +3 damage to -1 to hit (or AC) for +4 damage. So, after that, your power attacks should go up to -15 AC for +60 damage, also bringing up your bull rushes to +84 (RAI arguments may need to be had). And since you are pushing anyone around at probably an average of 11 squares and that +11 to hit and damage, since a war hulk's massive swing is "Make a single attack roll and apply it to EACH defender" (emphasis my own) RAW argument for applying that same +11 (give or take a few) bonus to all attacked. If you can reach them after hitting them that far, which you may want to reduce how far you hit them so you can attack them next round. Points for throwing them off cliffs.

DMM cleric/paladin, credit Metahuman1

Cleric 8/ Prestige Paladin 1/ Exotic Weapons Master 1/ Warhulk 10.

Use DMM persist to get the full BAB and Righteous Might along with some other little gems (Haste, Displacement, Alter Self, Lesser Vigor.) And that one level in Paladin get's me some AWESOME gems off the Paladin spell list (Lions Charge + Rhino's Rush as persisted spells? Can I say YES strongly enough?!! Or Persisted Warning Shout and Find the Gap?!)

Rightous Might can be used as the Large Qualifier to get you into Warhulk, but I'd rather have a template or base race do that and just buy a Ring of Reduction at that level. Maybe one restricted to my race/template combo and my alignment and my class combo.

But here's the real Gem, with all the Size and Str boosts your getting on this build form spells and Warhulk itself, your also getting double Str to damage with what ever Exotic weapon you entered with. True, you had to throw away some skill points into a throwaway skill and pick up a couple of crap feats, but the pay off is totally worth it. Heck I would even argue that you might not even need power attack anymore except to drop 1 BAB into so you can trigger a cleave.

If you want to get really Batcrap crazy, use spell craft to research a couple of Ability booster spells along the lines of bulls strength and it's Ilk that give a +6 to each ability score and Persist a couple of those.

The only thing I haven't figured out a way around is how to keep 3 ranks active in Craft: Weapons making so that you can combine your persisted spells and Warhulk class features with your Exotic Weapons Master Trick.

[Immabozo]

Reserved for more handbook space.

[Zombulian]

On top of Half-Mino, I would recommend the *other* half ogre from dragon mag. It is ruled as such that you can have both Half-Mino and Half-Ogre for only LA+1. Which is awesome.

[Deadline]

You may also want to include Goliaths (LA+1) from Races of Stone.

[Kazyan]

The Skillful weapon enchantment is a must-have at higher levels. Set your BAB to 3/4--and you're automatically proficient! Stick it on your spiked chain.

[danzibr]

You may also want to include Goliaths (LA+1) from Races of Stone.
You can't get into War Hulk as a Goliath unless you pull some other stuff. Powerful Build doesn't do that for you.

[Deadline]

You can't get into War Hulk as a Goliath unless you pull some other stuff. Powerful Build doesn't do that for you.

That depends on how you think Powerful Build interacts with the Large Size requirement, doesn't it?

Also, the 1st Goliath Barbarian substitution level fixes that "problem", should it be a problem.

[Fouredged Sword]

Make sure to mention the hulk solution to loosing skill points. Be medium normally with some ability that allows you to become large as needed. This allows you to activate the bonus strength as needed and still keep your skill points.

Goliath Barbarian is the standard method of doing this. Psiwar is also viable through the expansion power.

[Draz74]

That depends on how you think Powerful Build interacts with the Large Size requirement, doesn't it?
... No. Powerful Build doesn't do that. There's not much room for interpretation here.


Also, the 1st Goliath Barbarian substitution level fixes that "problem", should it be a problem.
That, on the other hand, can work. At least if the DM is cooperative (since this sub level only makes you Large for a few rounds at a time).

[Deadline]

... No. Powerful Build doesn't do that. There's not much room for interpretation here.

I'm fairly certain I've seen numerous Hulking Hurler builds here that use Goliath (without the Barbarian level), doesn't that class have the same "Large or Larger" requirement?

Edit: Blerg, forgot about the FAQ ruling, which seems quite counter to the language in Races of Stone (like in the rock throwing feats), but the FAQ ruling is quite clear. So only a Goliath with the Goliath Barbarian substitution level would technically qualify, unless the DM allows Powerful Build to qualify.

[Immabozo]

On top of Half-Mino, I would recommend the *other* half ogre from dragon mag. It is ruled as such that you can have both Half-Mino and Half-Ogre for only LA+1. Which is awesome.

I thought I mentioned that. I'll do so.


The Skillful weapon enchantment is a must-have at higher levels. Set your BAB to 3/4--and you're automatically proficient! Stick it on your spiked chain.

I'll be sure to mention that. I've got to read up on it first, but thanks for the heads up.


Blerg, forgot about the FAQ ruling, which seems quite counter to the language in Races of Stone (like in the rock throwing feats), but the FAQ ruling is quite clear. So only a Goliath with the Goliath Barbarian substitution level would technically qualify, unless the DM allows Powerful Build to qualify.

Well, if it's possible, I'll include it.

[Immabozo]

Added a sample build that I've been dying to post for the past day

[Monticularis]

Doesn't dwarven waraxe deal 1d10 points of damage?

Also, a greataxe damage dice (1d12) going from medium size to colossal should deal 8d6, not 16d6.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize

[Snowbluff]

Divine Power is the number one spell to have.

DMM Persist, Cleric7/Warhulk.

[Magnera]

Cometary Collision (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/cometary-collision--409/) + Steadfast boots will let you charge any opponent that tries to charge someone else, as long as you use a weapon two handed.

[herrhauptmann]

Cometary Collision (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/cometary-collision--409/) + Steadfast boots will let you charge any opponent that tries to charge someone else, as long as you use a weapon two handed.
The boots let you act as if you've readied an action to set your weapon, even if the weapon can't normally be set.
Cometary Collision is something else entirely. Ready an action to interrupt someones charge with your own. The two combined don't work the way you describe.

The boots are a great item though. They're a good way to shut down uber-chargers, and against medium/small opponents they let you get a second attack against them, even if you don't have a good dex.

[Magnera]

The boots let you act as if you've readied an action to set your weapon, even if the weapon can't normally be set.
Cometary Collision is something else entirely. Ready an action to interrupt someones charge with your own. The two combined don't work the way you describe.

The boots are a great item though. They're a good way to shut down uber-chargers, and against medium/small opponents they let you get a second attack against them, even if you don't have a good dex.

My DM must simply have a diffrent ruling about the two in concert.

[Immabozo]

Divine Power is the number one spell to have.

DMM Persist, Cleric7/Warhulk.

I was considering some build like this. Thank you for mentioning it, as my cleric knowledge is very lacking


Cometary Collision (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/cometary-collision--409/) + Steadfast boots will let you charge any opponent that tries to charge someone else, as long as you use a weapon two handed.

This is incredible, I've never seen either of these two, combo-ed they are amazing! Although, if that's true about them not working, I will have to read up on it. It is a broken combo if not!

[Khedrac]

On the Race front the Centaur is an OK choice and has the Races of the Wild progression to make playing up from level 1 easier.

One of the main Warhulk tricks in campaigns going there is to wait to take Warhulk until level 21. Yes you get no Base Attack Bonus, but [b]all[.b] classes get Epic Atack Bonus once they pass 20. Yes this is cheesy, but it nothign like as much as most tricks.

As for builds I did work out a Centaur Duskblade/Dragon Disciple/Warhulk once for a silly Strength score (sorry I don't still have it).

[danzibr]

Love the build!

I also love the Cleric entry. That's totally borked. Throw up your buffs ending with Righteous Might with a Divine Power in there, full BAB as a War Hulk :P

[TheMooch]

you should include the following

Weapon enchantments:
Wrathful healing (+3 - Enemies and Allies pg 20) - half of all damage is healed
Wounding (+2 bonus - core) 1con damage per hit? yes please

[Immabozo]

On the Race front the Centaur is an OK choice and has the Races of the Wild progression to make playing up from level 1 easier.

One of the main Warhulk tricks in campaigns going there is to wait to take Warhulk until level 21. Yes you get no Base Attack Bonus, but [b]all[.b] classes get Epic Atack Bonus once they pass 20. Yes this is cheesy, but it nothign like as much as most tricks.

As for builds I did work out a Centaur Duskblade/Dragon Disciple/Warhulk once for a silly Strength score (sorry I don't still have it).

I'll check out centaur, thanks for the tip!

wow, that is a gnarly trick, but if that is what you are doing at epic levels, you are going easy on your DM, there is so much worse. I'll include it, thanks!


Love the build!

I also love the Cleric entry. That's totally borked. Throw up your buffs ending with Righteous Might with a Divine Power in there, full BAB as a War Hulk :P

Thanks! I was in love with it too! TO numbers on a non-TO character! And better yet, you could actually play him!

The cleric idea, I like it too. I am gonna have to learn a little more about clerics to do a decent build.


you should include the following

Weapon enchantments:
Wrathful healing (+3 - Enemies and Allies pg 20) - half of all damage is healed
Wounding (+2 bonus - core) 1con damage per hit? yes please

I like the wrathful healing, thats a great one! DR 1/2? amazing.

Wounding is a decent one, but there are better options for a war hulk, seeing as he does so much damage.

[Kaje]

Be sure to include Legacy Champion to get the benefits + 3/4 bab.

[Immabozo]

Be sure to include Legacy Champion to get the benefits + 3/4 bab.

Never heard of this PrC, where can I read about it?

[Snowbluff]

I was considering some build like this. Thank you for mentioning it, as my cleric knowledge is very lacking

Straight Cleric9 into Warhulk should work fine. Since Righteous Might increases your size, it lets you arguably qualify. This will let any Medium races work.

Naenhoon Illumian would work instead of Divine Metamagic: Persistent.

Love the build!

I also love the Cleric entry. That's totally borked. Throw up your buffs ending with Righteous Might with a Divine Power in there, full BAB as a War Hulk :POh yeah. Epic levels can be weird with cleric as well, since it says the BaB will equal your HD.


Never heard of this PrC, where can I read about it?Weapons of Legacy. The class progresses the class features of another class. I think you need Knowledge ranks, though.

Also, Uncanny Trickster from Complete Scoundrel functions in much the same way.

[Immabozo]

Doesn't dwarven waraxe deal 1d10 points of damage?

Also, a greataxe damage dice (1d12) going from medium size to colossal should deal 8d6, not 16d6.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize

fixed, thanks for the correction, also, credit to you is given for correcting this.

[Immabozo]

BUMP

Added new stuff last night, still doing research for the cleric entry idea

[karkus]

Does the War Hulk actually gain any BAB at all? Maybe the version I was reading was typo-ed or I just don't remember it clearly, but I could've sworn that the War Hulk is listed as getting +0 BAB for every level... :smallconfused:

EDIT: Also, does an enlarged spiked chain offer more reach? Not only is this a Huge spiked chain for a Large creature with reach already, but I was thinking about making one with the Balanced property (+2 bonus; Arms and Equipment Guide) so as to be even bigger. Does it just give you a total reach of 15', or because it's getting longer, does it give you progressive amounts of more reach?

[Sponson]

Does the War Hulk actually gain any BAB at all? Maybe the version I was reading was typo-ed or I just don't remember it clearly, but I could've sworn that the War Hulk is listed as getting +0 BAB for every level... :smallconfused:

0 BAB straight down, in its place is +2 str at every level, "acting" like +1 bab, but completely totally isn't. See, warhulks don't deal in finesse, they deal in strength.

Also reach is only a modifier that doubles your natural reach, regardless of how large (or small) the weapon is. So how far it allows you to strike is based on your current character size, not item size.

[karkus]

Also reach is only a modifier that doubles your natural reach, regardless of how large (or small) the weapon is. So how far it allows you to strike is based on your current character size, not item size.

So a Large creature wielding a spiked chain has... 20' reach? :smallconfused:

[The Random NPC]

So how far it allows you to strike is based on your current character size, not item size.

Plus sometimes other stuff, like the feat Willing Deformity (Reach).

[Swaoeaeieu]

i am pretty sure JaronK has a build somewhere using warhulk. It's called the bulldozer if i'm not mistaking.

maybe a nice idea for the handbook is inlcuding some classes that combine well with warhulk. Like the aforementioned cleric. Barbarian or warforged juggernaut fit the theme well too.

[Immabozo]

i am pretty sure JaronK has a build somewhere using warhulk. It's called the bulldozer if i'm not mistaking.

maybe a nice idea for the handbook is inlcuding some classes that combine well with warhulk. Like the aforementioned cleric. Barbarian or warforged juggernaut fit the theme well too.

Yeah, I love barbie, it just fits so well! But it's a great mechanical wise entry as well.

[r6112]

there is the race from savage species half-ogre which is LA+1 and i think it still has all the bells and whistles of the races of destiny one.

as for the hulking hurler there is an abusible build called the warhulking hurler build which uses a centaurs ability to have 3X the carrying capacity of a medium sized humanoid.
here is the build i think (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/War_Hulking_Hurler_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build ))

Does a permanencied enlarge person work as satisfying the large requirement? in any case using that on any humanoid race which takes your fancy. Further abuse would be to stick it on a goliath while mountain raging increases your carrying capacity by x4.


i am pretty sure JaronK has a build somewhere using warhulk. It's called the bulldozer if i'm not mistaking.
did it happen to involve dungeon crasher fighter variant? may have seen something like it before but i really don't remember anything about it. if it didn't dungeon crasher can get very abusive dealing 8d6 damage + 3x your strength bonus when bull rushing someone into a wall or solid object so with fly you can bullrush people into the ground to deal damage. Well that was the fighter variant requiring 6 levels of fighter, the variant at level 2 is +4d6 + x2 str bonus. still very much worth it in my opinion.

[Piggy Knowles]

I have a goliath barbarian/totemist/fighter kicking around here somewhere that uses war hulk and legacy champion. I'll post it when I find it, but the general gist is:


Standard goliath barb trickery to have a character that can act as a skillmonkey when not raging, but turns into a crazy beast when rage is activated.
Legacy champion to give him 3/4 BAB, skills and other things that War Hulk wouldn't grant.
Spring attack, Phase Cloak bound to the shoulders chakra, Knock-Down, and Mighty Swing means he can phase through a wall, make a huge sweeping strike that hits multiple enemies, knock them down, get a follow-up attack via Improved Trip, and then retreat back through the wall.


The full build is something along the lines of:

Goliath, Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Totemist 6/Fighter 2/War Hulk 1/Legacy Champion 9 (assuming LA buyoff and no favored class penalties - if favored class penalties are enforced, drop totemist down to 2-3 levels, increase the barb levels, and pick up Open Least Chakra for the Crown chakra).

[lunar2]

Orc seige engine


Orc fighter 2/ goliath bonded stoneblessed 3/ goliath barbarian 1/warhulk 10/ hulking hurler 3/ something 1 (maybe warblade)


as an orc, you get +4 strength. water orcs get +2 con, as well, which is nice because it increases your rage duration. the stoneblessed prestige class lets you count as a goliath to get the goliath substitution level for barbarian. goliath barbarian makes you large when you rage, which qualifies you for war hulk. warhulk gets you +20 strength. hulking hurler lets you use your large size and massive strength to throw 70,000 lb rocks around, dealing, iirc, about 200d6 damage a round.

[Chronos]

In your section on the dwarvish waraxe, you mention increasing its size to use it two-handed instead of one-handed. While this is possible, it comes with a penalty to your attack roll. It's probably not worth it, since you could instead just power attack for that much more if you want to swap attack rating for damage.

And Legacy Champion doesn't work with War Hulk, since it requires ranks in Knowledge (History), and War Hulk sets all of your ranks in Int-based skills to zero. Uncanny Trickster would work, in principle, but it only gives two levels of progression, so it might be debatable whether it's worth it.

On other ways of getting attack bonus, waiting until epic should work (but then, it's epic), divine power should work if you're a cleric (best if it's persisted somehow), and using War Hulk in a gestalt game works, but is likely to get the DMG thrown across the table at you.

Oh, and any War Hulk handbook really must include mention of the Hulking Hurler. There's nothing that can make better use of a high strength score than the Hurler, who literally gets an exponential increase to damage from strength.

[Immabozo]

In your section on the dwarvish waraxe, you mention increasing its size to use it two-handed instead of one-handed. While this is possible, it comes with a penalty to your attack roll. It's probably not worth it, since you could instead just power attack for that much more if you want to swap attack rating for damage.

Really? What kind of penalty?


And Legacy Champion doesn't work with War Hulk, since it requires ranks in Knowledge (History), and War Hulk sets all of your ranks in Int-based skills to zero. Uncanny Trickster would work, in principle, but it only gives two levels of progression, so it might be debatable whether it's worth it.

You are very right


On other ways of getting attack bonus, waiting until epic should work (but then, it's epic), divine power should work if you're a cleric (best if it's persisted somehow), and using War Hulk in a gestalt game works, but is likely to get the DMG thrown across the table at you.

Oh, and any War Hulk handbook really must include mention of the Hulking Hurler. There's nothing that can make better use of a high strength score than the Hurler, who literally gets an exponential increase to damage from strength.

Another method of gaining BAB is using the skillful enchantment.

I am unfamiliar with the Hulking Hurler, other than it exists, I'll have to read up on it. What book is it from?

[lunar2]

it's in complete warrior, and it is designed around throwing really heavy objects. since objects deal damage by weight, a war hulk hulking hurler can easily get up to 200d6 damage (plus strength and a half for throwing it 2 handed). and by easily i mean without spells or magic items. just size and natural (lol) strength.

[SaintRidley]

there is the race from savage species half-ogre which is LA+1 and i think it still has all the bells and whistles of the races of destiny one.

The Races of Destiny version, being the more recent, supersedes the Savage Species version. Half-Ogre is LA +2. Still no big if using buyoff.

[Zombulian]

So a Large creature wielding a spiked chain has... 20' reach? :smallconfused:

Yep. If you get Aberrant Reach and Deformity (Tall), while using a Spiked Chain as a medium character, you'll have 30ft reach.

[Snowbluff]

Yep. If you get Aberrant Reach and Deformity (Tall), while using a Spiked Chain as a medium character, you'll have 30ft reach.

Uh, wait, would it not double your reach? That would make 40'.

Also, hi Zombulian! :smallsmile:

[herrhauptmann]

Dwarven War Axe: Unless you are a dwarf, requires a feat to use, if not a dwarf, it is not really worth it at all, unless you use the skillful enchantment (see below). This deals only slightly less damage as a greataxe, except that it is one handed! Yes, you could use a shield, but that is short changing yourself. 1D10 as a one handed medium weapon, upgrade it once to large (2D8), once more (to huge) for 2 handed (3D8), another one (gargantuan) if you have monkey fist or giant blooded or something that lets you wield a weapon of a size larger than you otherwise could, for 6D8 and greater enlarge from a friendly mage will get you up to stupid numbers (for 2 size categories, 12D8). I'm sure you can tell I really like this option, at least on the right build I do. (thanks to Monticularis for correcting my damage calculations)

Monkey fist. You mean monkey grip?
Psionic expansion is a great way to get a size boost if you need it. Enter as a psy-war, and after 8 levels (7 with overchannel), you can net 2 size boosts that ignore your type. Unlike Enlarge Person which does not work for most warhulks due to type issues.


In your section on the dwarvish waraxe, you mention increasing its size to use it two-handed instead of one-handed. While this is possible, it comes with a penalty to your attack roll. It's probably not worth it, since you could instead just power attack for that much more if you want to swap attack rating for damage.

About that...


A dwarven waraxe is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A Medium character can use a dwarven waraxe two-handed as a martial weapon, or a Large creature can use it one-handed in the same way. A dwarf treats a dwarven waraxe as a martial weapon even when using it in one hand.
They're talking about the medium sized waraxe and medium sized characters. Get a waraxe sized for you (increased size like he mentioned), and you can use it two-handed as a martial weapon without penalty.


Weapons list should also include the Executioners Mace. Normally 2d6, 20x3. BP or BS damage. Dungeon Magazine somewhere. I found it listed in the old crystal keep files before they were shut down.

Other items.
Gold or platinum weapons from Magic of Faerun, make your weapon [Heavy] and exotic. Physical size isn't any bigger, but damage goes up as if size changed. Arguably makes any exotic weapon doubly exotic. So EWP:Spiked Chain, and EWP:Heavy Spiked Chain are needed. Fix that with a Skillful weapon. (If dual wielding exotics, BOTH have to be Skillful)

So halfminotaur or ogre=size large.
Psywar 7and expansion=size gargantuan.
Strongarm bracers=colossal weapon.
[Heavy] weapon=colossal+ weapon.

[herrhauptmann]

Additional item critique:

Vorpal is misspelled. Sorry, I twitch at that stuff.
Crystal of Life drinking only works 10 times a day, regardless of crystal used.
Crystal of Return. Draw weapon as free action? Yes Please.

For warhulking hurlers: Greater Crystal of Return on a Plutonium boulder or something? Returning Plutonium boulder. Now you only need one.
I personally don't advocate the use of plutonium boulders, or any other boulder made of a material that requires a knowledge in Post-WW2 chemistry and physics. Besides, the Immortals Handbook (3rd party) has better choices anyway.

Energy Assault:

Acid looks nice, but only 1 point of AC is lost. And only for 1 round.
Why do that when you could reduce their speed by 10 feet with Cold.
Or Dazzle them with electric? Reducing their attacks against the entire party is probably more useful than reducing their AC for the beatsticks.

[Chronos]

They're talking about the medium sized waraxe and medium sized characters. Get a waraxe sized for you (increased size like he mentioned), and you can use it two-handed as a martial weapon without penalty.Sure, but if you're wielding an appropriately-sized waraxe two-handed, then why not just use a greataxe instead for even more damage?

[herrhauptmann]

Sure, but if you're wielding an appropriately-sized waraxe two-handed, then why not just use a greataxe instead for even more damage?

That's a valid point.
So why did you mention a penalty to attack?:smallconfused:

[Soranar]

there's a pretty funny trick using the races of stone prestige classes that make you a member of another race (in this case goliath)

then use that to qualify for the goliath rage substitution level of barbarian

and play something really small, like a jermlaine

now, when you hulk out, you grow to large size

anyone ever wanted to play ant man?

[Zombulian]

Uh, wait, would it not double your reach? That would make 40'.

Also, hi Zombulian! :smallsmile:

Um


Yep. If you get Aberrant Reach and Deformity (Tall), while using a Spiked Chain as a medium character, you'll have 30ft reach.

Maybe you missed that it's a medium character that I used for the base? So still 30ft I think.

And hi! :smallbiggrin: Been a while since we crossed paths I suppose.

EDIT: Soranar that's Hilarious. Does it specifically say you become Large and not just "gain a size category"?

[Chronos]

Sadly, Stoneblessed has a prerequisite of humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant, so Jermlaine (who are fey) won't qualify. Though I think there might be a playable tiny monstrous humanoid or two in Savage Species.

And yes, goliath barbarian does specify "large".


That's a valid point.
So why did you mention a penalty to attack?
The OP wasn't talking about using an appropriately-sized waraxe. He was talking about using a waraxe one size larger than appropriate, switching it from one-handed to two-handed.

[Piggy Knowles]

Sadly, Stoneblessed has a prerequisite of humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant, so Jermlaine (who are fey) won't qualify. Though I think there might be a playable tiny monstrous humanoid or two in Savage Species.

Muckdwellers from Serpent Kingdoms fit the bill - they are tiny LA +0 monstrous humanoids.

[Kaje]

And Legacy Champion doesn't work with War Hulk, since it requires ranks in Knowledge (History), and War Hulk sets all of your ranks in Int-based skills to zero. Uncanny Trickster would work, in principle, but it only gives two levels of progression, so it might be debatable whether it's worth it.
Take the first level of Legacy Champion, then go into Warhulk. It totally works.

[The Random NPC]

Sadly, Stoneblessed has a prerequisite of humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant, so Jermlaine (who are fey) won't qualify. Though I think there might be a playable tiny monstrous humanoid or two in Savage Species.

And yes, goliath barbarian does specify "large".


1) Play as a Half-Giant
2) Get Return to Nature cast on you, a lot
3) Get levels in Stoneblessed
4) Get levels in Goliath Barbarian
5) Go from Fine++++++ to Large when you rage.

EDIT: 6) Paint yourself green
7) Say, "You're making me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry."

[Snowbluff]

Take the first level of Legacy Champion, then go into Warhulk. It totally works.

Except you would lose the class skill, and therefore the prerequisites, and lose access to the class abilities for Legacy Champion.

You need to be level 10 to get into Legacy Champ, anyway. Delaying it that far would be unwise.

[Gazzien]

So a Large creature wielding a spiked chain has... 20' reach? :smallconfused:

Yep, no matter whether it's a Diminutive Spiked Chain, or a Colossal Spiked Chain, iirc... :unsure:

[lunar2]

Except you would lose the class skill, and therefore the prerequisites, and lose access to the class abilities for Legacy Champion.

You need to be level 10 to get into Legacy Champ, anyway. Delaying it that far would be unwise.

that's a specific rule from complete warrior, that only applies to the prestige classes from complete warrior. by general RAW, you only need the prerequisites to enter the prestige class, not to maintain the benefits or continue to gain levels, unless specified otherwise.

[Snowbluff]

that's a specific rule from complete warrior, that only applies to the prestige classes from complete warrior. by general RAW, you only need the prerequisites to enter the prestige class, not to maintain the benefits or continue to gain levels, unless specified otherwise.

Do you have a printed source later than CW to verify this? Do you have an actual rule to cite? For it to be RAW, you have to have a rule, that is written.

The section for the rule refers to having 'A' prestige class and not 'these' prestige classes. Rulings to fix conflicting issues with this are possible, but they are not "RAW".

[Zombulian]

Yep, no matter whether it's a Diminutive Spiked Chain, or a Colossal Spiked Chain, iirc... :unsure:

Weapon size has nothing to do with reach. You could be a pixie with the Titan bloodline carrying a 25ft long warhammer, and still have a reach of 0ft.

[Immabozo]

herrhauptmann, herrhauptmann, Thank you for your corrections, fixed (except for the energy crystal weapon mods, I'm sick and dont have the energy right now).


They're talking about the medium sized waraxe and medium sized characters. Get a waraxe sized for you (increased size like he mentioned), and you can use it two-handed as a martial weapon without penalty.

interesting, so I was accidentally right, haha.


Weapons list should also include the Executioners Mace. Normally 2d6, 20x3. BP or BS damage. Dungeon Magazine somewhere. I found it listed in the old crystal keep files before they were shut down.

Other items.
Gold or platinum weapons from Magic of Faerun, make your weapon [Heavy] and exotic. Physical size isn't any bigger, but damage goes up as if size changed. Arguably makes any exotic weapon doubly exotic. So EWP:Spiked Chain, and EWP:Heavy Spiked Chain are needed. Fix that with a Skillful weapon. (If dual wielding exotics, BOTH have to be Skillful)

So halfminotaur or ogre=size large.
Psywar 7and expansion=size gargantuan.
Strongarm bracers=colossal weapon.
[Heavy] weapon=colossal+ weapon.

I love it, thank you, I'll add the Items, spells and classes you mentioned.


Sure, but if you're wielding an appropriately-sized waraxe two-handed, then why not just use a greataxe instead for even more damage?

1D12 vs 2D8 is not equivalent damage. Increased again, 3D6 vs 3D8, again at 4D6 vs 4D8, is again, not equivalent. A die higher for free? Sign me up!


And yes, goliath barbarian does specify "large".

I love the idea! I'll have to find a race to fit!


1) Play as a Half-Giant
2) Get Return to Nature cast on you, a lot
3) Get levels in Stoneblessed
4) Get levels in Goliath Barbarian
5) Go from Fine++++++ to Large when you rage.

EDIT: 6) Paint yourself green
7) Say, "You're making me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry."

I am so going to make this a build and give you credit!

[herrhauptmann]

Do you have a printed source later than CW to verify this? Do you have an actual rule to cite? For it to be RAW, you have to have a rule, that is written.

The section for the rule refers to having 'A' prestige class and not 'these' prestige classes. Rulings to fix conflicting issues with this are possible, but they are not "RAW".

It's more along the lines of:
"CW says you have to meet the prereqs for a feat/PrC always, if you lose the prereqs, you lose the feat/PrC."
Other books don't say that, you can keep the benefits even if you no longer meet the prereqs.
There's an argument about the Quantum Dragon Disciple who loses all benefits of his PrC once he takes level 10 because he becomes halfdragon. But as soon as he loses all the benefits, he requalifies...

And of course a swiftblade who somehow has to always use his 3rd level spells for haste, and if he doesn't, he loses the benefits of his PrC.

It's better to just use Logic and ask for the DM's opinion.

At least, that's what I've gleaned from some of the screaming arguments on the subject a few years back. Of course, it might have just been that some people liked to argue and were intentionally reading the rules wrong so they could piss someone else off.

[lunar2]

Do you have a printed source later than CW to verify this? Do you have an actual rule to cite? For it to be RAW, you have to have a rule, that is written.

The section for the rule refers to having 'A' prestige class and not 'these' prestige classes. Rulings to fix conflicting issues with this are possible, but they are not "RAW".

date doesn't matter, the DMG and/or SRD are primary source for prestige classes. but from the SRD

"Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing."

you only need to meet the prerequisites for a prestige class in order to take the first level of that prestige class. after that, anything goes, except when specified otherwise.

of course, this means that incredible hulk builds that use goliath barbarian and warhulk don't actually work, since warhulk is always on once you take that first level. but rule of cool uses the CW rule to have warhulk turn off so you can be bruce banner again.

edit: feats, on the other hand, need the prequisites both to take and to use. if you lose the prerequisite to a feat, you lose access to the feat until you meet the prerequisite again.

[Snowbluff]

Excuse me, but that excerpt is from a source prior to CW, AND doesn't preclude the loss of features upon loss of requirements.

Date does matter, since in an environment using the books for rules has the later books making changes in the system.

Finally, the PrC rules are actually more borked without the inclusion of this rule.

[lunar2]

Excuse me, but that excerpt is from a source prior to CW, AND doesn't preclude the loss of features upon loss of requirements.

and it doesn't matter, because the DMG/SRD is primary source.

im not at my computer right now, or i'd check the rules compendium. but primary source is the SRD in this case, so the SRD rule stands. date does not matter, because the primary source was identified by WOTC as such.

[Snowbluff]

and it doesn't matter, because the DMG/SRD is primary source.

im not at my computer right now, or i'd check the rules compendium. but primary source is the SRD in this case, so the SRD rule stands. date does not matter, because the primary source was identified by WOTC as such.If you say so. I'll be spending the rest of my day getting books thrown at me.

As far as rules compendium, I am having a hard time finding the section on PrCs. And as for a primary source, it would have to conflict something to be wrong, correct? Does your source tell you what happens to your features when you no longer meet the requirements?

Well, then, the Warhulk advancement through Legacy still won't work. With 0 ranks in the skill, you can't progress Legacy Champ to progress Warhulk.

[lunar2]

that is correct. you can't progress warhulk with legacy champion unless you take the first level before warhulk. by the time you are finished with warhulk and can get back to legacy champion, you are an epic character anyway, so you might as well keep going warhulk.

there is no direct contradiction between the SRD and CW, no, but there is a conflict between the CW rule and multiple prestige classes from other books. dragon disciple has already been mentioned, since its capstone ability changes you to a half dragon, disqualifying you for the prestige class. urpriest is also one, since you can't take urpriest if you are a divine caster, but urpriest grants divine casting.

since the rule is in an optional sourcebook and contradicts material from a core book, the rule only applies to prestige classes from that book unless a DM says otherwise.

and yes, if you were to actually try to take a prestige class and then lose the prerequisites, you would most likely get books thrown at you if you didn't get it cleared first. you would also get books thrown at you for playing pun-pun, although that is also RAW legal.

[Fouredged Sword]

The idea is not to FINISH warhulk after legacy champion, but to take legacy champion over the top of warhulk for better BAB.

Something X / Legacy Champ 1 / Warhulk 1 / Legacy champ 8.

This gets you something like 7 levels of warhulk with 3/4th bab.

[lunar2]

that works, yeah. still cheesy as hell, though, to use legacy champion on a prestige class, imo.

[Snowbluff]

The noted prestige classes are a result of inconsiderate writing. Rules conflicting with other written material is actually something that happens, but the rules are more concrete. According to your line of thinking, Pelor is actually an Evil deity.

[lunar2]

The noted prestige classes are a result of inconsiderate writing. Rules conflicting with other written material is actually something that happens, but the rules are more concrete. According to your line of thinking, Pelor is actually an Evil deity.

i've heard that before, but i'm not familiar with it. care to enlighten me?

[Snowbluff]

i've heard that before, but i'm not familiar with it. care to enlighten me?
Here is a thread on it. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate) It's actually wuite funny.

In summary, it compiles instances when Pelor or his servants do something goes against the rules or what it has written in Pelor's description. For example, Jozan casting [Evil] spells. The rest of the instances are mostly fluff.

[Zombulian]

i've heard that before, but i'm not familiar with it. care to enlighten me?

Oh HE WILL ENLIGHTEN. PELOR, GOD OF THE SUN, THE BURNING HATE, THE WRATHFUL ORB.

[Snowbluff]

Oh HE WILL ENLIGHTEN. PELOR, GOD OF THE SUN, THE BURNING HATE, THE WRATHFUL ORB.
Pelorite Evangelist:Here, take a cookie. Have you learned the lessons of pelor?
Dude: "No, um... *TAKES COOKIE* OMIGOSH THESE COOKIES BURN LIKE THE SUN!":smallfurious:
PE: Yes. Yes they do. :smallsmile:

[herrhauptmann]

Here is a thread on it. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate) It's actually wuite funny.

In summary, it compiles instances when Pelor or his servants do something goes against the rules or what it has written in Pelor's description. For example, Jozan casting [Evil] spells. The rest of the instances are mostly fluff.

Now now, Pelor isn't Evil. Some of those are just copy-paste errors between rule changes. Like Symbol of Pain becoming an [Evil] spell.
Others are just coincidences that a devil or something would share a name with a good sun deity. It's not like there's a world where various immortal beings have a specific name that can be invoked to gain their attention, meaning it's impossible to have two different beings named "Bob the Devil."
Drink the danged kool-aid kid, or we're all gonna fry!

[Zombulian]

Now now, Pelor isn't Evil. Some of those are just copy-paste errors between rule changes. Like Symbol of Pain becoming an [Evil] spell.
Others are just coincidences that a devil or something would share a name with a good sun deity. It's not like there's a world where various immortal beings have a specific name that can be invoked to gain their attention, meaning it's impossible to have two different beings named "Bob the Devil."
Drink the danged kool-aid kid, or we're all gonna fry!

Yes... That would be ridiculous...

[Chronos]

The most common interpretation I've seen is that you need to meet the prerequisites for a class every time you level in that class, except for the rare case where the class itself takes away the prerequisite.

[Immabozo]

The most common interpretation I've seen is that you need to meet the prerequisites for a class every time you level in that class, except for the rare case where the class itself takes away the prerequisite.

that seems totally counter intuitive! How did that get past WotC before publication?

[Chronos]

You mean, a class taking away its own prerequisite? Most often, that happens through a capstone, so it doesn't actually matter if you can't take more levels. Dragon Disciple, for instance, eventually turns you into a half-dragon, and requires you to not be a dragon to begin with (presumably because it'd be silly to turn into a dragon when you already are one).

However, the Ur-Priest has as a prerequisite that you not be able to cast divine spells, but then gives you the ability to cast divine spells. The fluff justification there makes sense, but I think they just forgot to specify "except for Ur-Priest casting", or something like that, in the description.

[Immabozo]

You mean, a class taking away its own prerequisite? Most often, that happens through a capstone, so it doesn't actually matter if you can't take more levels. Dragon Disciple, for instance, eventually turns you into a half-dragon, and requires you to not be a dragon to begin with (presumably because it'd be silly to turn into a dragon when you already are one).

However, the Ur-Priest has as a prerequisite that you not be able to cast divine spells, but then gives you the ability to cast divine spells. The fluff justification there makes sense, but I think they just forgot to specify "except for Ur-Priest casting", or something like that, in the description.

I see your point. Perhaps it is yet again a case of silly RAW that doesn't work right

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Too bad Massive Swing specifies 'any opponent you threaten' rather than 'any opponent in range', because otherwise Bloodstorm Blade would let you treat any thrown attack as a melee attack and give you an effective range of 'how far can you throw'. Now Dragonwrought your way into early Epic feats for making your range increment for thrown weapons be 'line of sight'.

Basically, you hit everything in line of sight as an attack action.

Unfortunately, since you don't threaten outside of your melee range, it doesn't work. So very close...

[JaronK]

May I suggest this build? A friend is currently playing it in a campaign:

Combine Dungeoncrasher with War Hulk, using Improved Trip, Knockback, Shield Slam, Shock Trooper, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, and Shield Charge. Weild a skillfull spiked shield of some kind and go nuts. Charge and shield slam/charge... now you can attack every enemy within reach at the end of the charge. If you can get your strength up to about 50 (easily done with a War Hulk) the save to avoid being dazed by your attack is DC 40... yehaw. And you trip them from the hit... which lets you attack again due to Improved Trip. Then the enemies fly away from you from two bull rushes due to Knock Back, and you can direct them into each other (if any of them somehow didn't get tripped, that gives you another trip attempt against them). Then if they hit a wall they take a bunch more damage. If they hit more enemies, those get tripped and are now in a dangerous spot indeed. The guys you hit directly can't act next turn, so charge them again (and if you can get more enemies into the group, so much the better... Shock Trooper makes that very possible). You can sweep through countless enemies this way, pushing groups of them in front of you like a psychotic spikey bulldozer from hell. And of course you'll average about 400 damage to all enemies within your reach when you charge, not including damage from bouncing them off walls.

The actual build is Feat Variant Rogue 2/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrasher 6/War Hulk 10. Race is anything large with LA paydown, or a Human with Permanent Enlarge Person. Feats for the human version would be:

1: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Power Attack
2: Improved Bull Rush
3: Knockback
4: Improved Trip
5: Shield Charge
6: Cleave
8: Shield Slam
9: Shock Trooper
12: Leap Attack
15: Shield Ward
18: Weapon Focus (Spiked Armour)

If flaws are allowed, go for Blood Spiked Charger. If you do a race other than human, just bump the feats down by one. Use a Skillfull Valorous Spiked Shield with whatever other mods you like (Skillfull is a huge one, a +2 enchantment that provides +6 to hit for this build. Valorous helps with damage). If your DM allows both Lion Totem and Wolf Totem on the same Barbarian (they do replace different things) then go for it and watch your charge damage skyrocket. The really awesome thing about this is that it's a combination charger, lockdown, and tripper, and can do all three of these things at once without losing anything. Plus, the usual weakness of chargers is multiple enemies... but that's a strength of this build. It could sure use more reach though.

-----

Also, seriously, Hulking Hurler being absent in a War Hulk handbook seems a bit bizarre. Take a close look at the improvised weapon rules + Hulking Hurler rules (the former is at the end of Complete Warrior). You can easily get 500d6 damage.

JaronK

[Immabozo]

May I suggest this build? A friend is currently playing it in a campaign:

Combine Dungeoncrasher with War Hulk, using Improved Trip, Knockback, Shield Slam, Shock Trooper, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, and Shield Charge. Weild a skillfull spiked shield of some kind and go nuts. Charge and shield slam/charge... now you can attack every enemy within reach at the end of the charge. If you can get your strength up to about 50 (easily done with a War Hulk) the save to avoid being dazed by your attack is DC 40... yehaw. And you trip them from the hit... which lets you attack again due to Improved Trip. Then the enemies fly away from you from two bull rushes due to Knock Back, and you can direct them into each other (if any of them somehow didn't get tripped, that gives you another trip attempt against them). Then if they hit a wall they take a bunch more damage. If they hit more enemies, those get tripped and are now in a dangerous spot indeed. The guys you hit directly can't act next turn, so charge them again (and if you can get more enemies into the group, so much the better... Shock Trooper makes that very possible). You can sweep through countless enemies this way, pushing groups of them in front of you like a psychotic spikey bulldozer from hell. And of course you'll average about 400 damage to all enemies within your reach when you charge, not including damage from bouncing them off walls.

The actual build is Feat Variant Rogue 2/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrasher 6/War Hulk 10. Race is anything large with LA paydown, or a Human with Permanent Enlarge Person. Feats for the human version would be:

1: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Power Attack
2: Improved Bull Rush
3: Knockback
4: Improved Trip
5: Shield Charge
6: Cleave
8: Shield Slam
9: Shock Trooper
12: Leap Attack
15: Shield Ward
18: Weapon Focus (Spiked Armour)

If flaws are allowed, go for Blood Spiked Charger. If you do a race other than human, just bump the feats down by one. Use a Skillfull Valorous Spiked Shield with whatever other mods you like (Skillfull is a huge one, a +2 enchantment that provides +6 to hit for this build. Valorous helps with damage). If your DM allows both Lion Totem and Wolf Totem on the same Barbarian (they do replace different things) then go for it and watch your charge damage skyrocket. The really awesome thing about this is that it's a combination charger, lockdown, and tripper, and can do all three of these things at once without losing anything. Plus, the usual weakness of chargers is multiple enemies... but that's a strength of this build. It could sure use more reach though.

Also, seriously, Hulking Hurler being absent in a War Hulk handbook seems a bit bizarre. Take a close look at the improvised weapon rules + Hulking Hurler rules (the former is at the end of Complete Warrior). You can easily get 500d6 damage.

JaronK

I will add that build. And of course I'll credit you.

The only reason it isn't added yet, is because in real life I am fighting a fever. But I'll look into it now.

[lunar2]

I will add that build. And of course I'll credit you.

The only reason it isn't added yet, is because in real life I am fighting a fever. But I'll look into it now.

yeah, warhulk and hulking hurler might as well be combined into a single 13 level prestige class. i don't even think of one without the other.

[Immabozo]

yeah, warhulk and hulking hurler might as well be combined into a single 13 level prestige class. i don't even think of one without the other.

Well, after studying in, it is such an obvious and very easy break, you'd have to be careful not to turn it into a TO character. I'll add it, but warn as much

[Immabozo]

Made a few edits, added more to "races" section, started including Lycanthropes, ctarted on entry classes (mentioning the Cleric/DMM persist shenanigans) and the other PrC dips (mentioning the hulking hurler)

[Saintheart]

Since War Hulk is all about having a big reach, how about Large and In Charge from the Draconomicon?

The prereqs should be easy for a War Hulk to hit: natural reach of 10 feet, size Large or larger. The effect is to keep opponents from closing to range with you. If you hit with an AoO against someone moving in your threatened area, you can make an opposed STR check to push the opponent back 5 feet to the square it just left -- and it can't move any further that round. Combining with Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon, you now have a battlefield control function: locking down opponents up to 20 feet away as they try to close with your friends, not just you.

In fact, Large and In Charge if you look at it myopically has the potential to impose paralysis for a round: the feat's text says you "cannot move any farther", which one could argue means can't move at all -- no spellcasting, no defence, no Dex bonus to AC, considered flatfooted... :)

[Immabozo]

Since War Hulk is all about having a big reach, how about Large and In Charge from the Draconomicon?

The prereqs should be easy for a War Hulk to hit: natural reach of 10 feet, size Large or larger. The effect is to keep opponents from closing to range with you. If you hit with an AoO against someone moving in your threatened area, you can make an opposed STR check to push the opponent back 5 feet to the square it just left -- and it can't move any further that round. Combining with Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon, you now have a battlefield control function: locking down opponents up to 20 feet away as they try to close with your friends, not just you.

In fact, Large and In Charge if you look at it myopically has the potential to impose paralysis for a round: the feat's text says you "cannot move any farther", which one could argue means can't move at all -- no spellcasting, no defence, no Dex bonus to AC, considered flatfooted... :)

That's interesting, I'll add it, thanks. And, again, I'll add that to a new "RAW cheese" section I am planning.

Hell, I need to add Willing Deformity feats to the feat section!

[Saintheart]

There may be more shenanigans a War Hulk can do if he's taking the LA +3 half-dragon template, mainly because it changes the creature type to dragon. That's a prerequisite for a lot of feats out of the Draconomicon, and though I haven't looked into it in detail, there's a few nice things that arise out of it and which a War Hulk might well benefit from in these circumstances: Awaken Spell Resistance, Awaken Frightful Presence, Improved Speed (raises your movement by 10 feet whether or not it includes a Fly speed) are all low-cost feat investments for nice goodies if you're going to nerf yourself under LA.

And perhaps the most appropriate for a half-dragon War Hulk: Shock Wave, with prereqs of STR 13, dragon type, Power Attack, size Large. As a full-round action, Bull Rush everyone in a (5 x your racial HD) foot radius. If anyone fails the STR check, they fall prone.

[Immabozo]

There may be more shenanigans a War Hulk can do if he's taking the LA +3 half-dragon template, mainly because it changes the creature type to dragon. That's a prerequisite for a lot of feats out of the Draconomicon, and though I haven't looked into it in detail, there's a few nice things that arise out of it and which a War Hulk might well benefit from in these circumstances: Awaken Spell Resistance, Awaken Frightful Presence, Improved Speed (raises your movement by 10 feet whether or not it includes a Fly speed) are all low-cost feat investments for nice goodies if you're going to nerf yourself under LA.

And perhaps the most appropriate for a half-dragon War Hulk: Shock Wave, with prereqs of STR 13, dragon type, Power Attack, size Large. As a full-round action, Bull Rush everyone in a (5 x your racial HD) foot radius. If anyone fails the STR check, they fall prone.

Wow, with a side of shock and awe. The Shockwave is also from Draconomicon? I will be sure to research it.

[Saintheart]

Yep, all of them are from the Draconomicon. Whether those feats in any combination make up for the crippling LA +3 adjustment, I don't know and would defer to others' judgment, but Spell Resistance for the cripplingly-bad-Will-save War Hulk is a nice backup to have, I'd have thought. Or you could use the Awaken Frightful Presence as a foundation for a fear-blasting build of some kind, since the War Hulk still gets to use Intimidate even when all of his other INT/WIS/CHA skills are disabled.

[Immabozo]

Yep, all of them are from the Draconomicon. Whether those feats in any combination make up for the crippling LA +3 adjustment, I don't know and would defer to others' judgment, but Spell Resistance for the cripplingly-bad-Will-save War Hulk is a nice backup to have, I'd have thought. Or you could use the Awaken Frightful Presence as a foundation for a fear-blasting build of some kind, since the War Hulk still gets to use Intimidate even when all of his other INT/WIS/CHA skills are disabled.

As far as saving the will save, I recommend the "Steadfast determination" feat, which makes you use con instead of wisdom on will saves, making it a much stronger save. Also, you dont fail fort saves on a 1. Prepare to laugh at your DM when he attempts to make your level 10+ warhulk make for saves! My level 14 War Hulk (including LA +1) auto made anything under a DC 30 fort save when raging (32 if it was a spell of spell-like effect). I just kept laughing at him when he (I assume) tried to poison me with an (I assume) poison arrow.

[Saintheart]

P.S.: If you have a friendly cleric to cast Air Walk on you, the Shock Wave tactic need not be restricted to the ground. That spell allows you to tread on air as if you were on the ground, and assuming a reasonable-minded GM probably allows you to smash the air with your ... uh ... front tail, shall we say, thus forcing a potential Bull Rush against opponents in all directions, including on the ground below. You are now a flying concussion grenade.

[Immabozo]

P.S.: If you have a friendly cleric to cast Air Walk on you, the Shock Wave tactic need not be restricted to the ground. That spell allows you to tread on air as if you were on the ground, and assuming a reasonable-minded GM probably allows you to smash the air with your ... uh ... front tail, shall we say, thus forcing a potential Bull Rush against opponents in all directions, including on the ground below. You are now a flying concussion grenade.

Oh my god i love that!

[Saintheart]

As far as saving the will save, I recommend the "Steadfast determination" feat, which makes you use con instead of wisdom on will saves, making it a much stronger save. Also, you dont fail fort saves on a 1. Prepare to laugh at your DM when he attempts to make your level 10+ warhulk make for saves! My level 14 War Hulk (including LA +1) auto made anything under a DC 30 fort save when raging (32 if it was a spell of spell-like effect). I just kept laughing at him when he (I assume) tried to poison me with an (I assume) poison arrow.

It's a lovely feat, no doubt. Pity that you have to take Endurance to get it, but it might well be worth the opportunity cost, as described above. :) Will save is a beatstick's biggest weak point, IMHO, and Steadfast Determination is a damn nice way to make your character less MAD on that.

[Immabozo]

It's a lovely feat, no doubt. Pity that you have to take Endurance to get it, but it might well be worth the opportunity cost, as described above. :) Will save is a beatstick's biggest weak point, IMHO, and Steadfast Determination is a damn nice way to make your character less MAD on that.

Fully agreed. And on a god's honest RAW confusion that, STIRCTLY as RAW (because it contradicts itself) the bear warrior adds a lot to rage without HAVING to change into a bear, mix with house rulings I could never figure out where he would every once in a while give free con, I would get up to a 35 or so con when raging

[Saintheart]

One other possibility if you're looking to use an exotic weapon: if you're willing to take EWP and Weapon Focus in that weapon, you then qualify for Exotic Weapon Master out of Complete Warrior (same book as Hulking Hurler). Being of the same race as the Exotic Weapon (or using a Skillful weapon) brings the opportunity cost down to one feat.

Three levels long, and it has a couple of useful tricks that can be bought for exotic weapons you use:

- Show Off, which is basically an Intimidate check to generate a shaken condition for a round or two, which can be used in a fear-blasting build.

- Exotic Reach: if the exotic weapon has reach, you can make AoOs against an opponent even when it has cover.

- Flurry of Strikes: In essence, this is the monk's Flurry of Blows applied to an exotic weapon. On a full attack with a spiked chain or exotic double weapon, make one extra attack at full attack bonus, but all attacks in the sequence are penalised by -2. Stacks with the extra attack you get from TWF, and there's nothing to say you can't Haste on it.

- Throw Exotic Weapon: Throw your exotic weapon with no penalty on the attack roll, even if it's not designed to be thrown. "So what?" I hear you ask.

Well, this Exotic Weapon Master trick therefore removes the final -4 to -2 penalty a Hulking Hurler build would impose on throwing items undesigned for throwing. How so? Meet Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a). The sourcebook is the Fiend Folio, but you'll only find the material on the WOTC website.

Per RAW it turns any weapon it's applied to into an exotic weapon, requiring EWP to wield. It also gives a piercing or slashing weapon a crit multiplier of x4, which arguably makes it worth the price alone if you're critfishing or apply Keen to your chosen weapon and it's not a scythe or a minotaur greathammer.

Per RAW as long as an item's masterwork when made, it can be dipped in Kaorti Resin and thereby turned into an exotic weapon. Masterwork returning boulder? Masterwork ship's keel? If you've put Hulking Hurler levels into your build, any item you can carry as a light load becomes an exotic weapon if dipped in the resin, and with this trick, it takes not one penalty if you choose to chuck it at someone.

- Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands, you do x2 STR as a damage bonus instead of 1.5. With Power Attack, you treat the weapon as two-handed for the purposes of determining bonus damage on rolls. So that dwarven waraxe that's recommended above? For Power Attack purposes you just turned it into a Greatsword --and Power Attack is far more significant in damage than the damage dice.

It might be worth only taking the one level in Exotic Weapon Master if you only need a particular trick; the class is otherwise unremarkable.

EDIT: Wiped all this because Exotic Weapon Master won't gel with War Hulk. EWM has prereqs of Craft: Weaponsmithing ... an INT-based skill, which disappears (as does the PrC) when you go into War Hulk and your INT/WIS/CHA-based skills drop to 0. Kaorti Resin is still handy as a weapon material though if you want a crit modifier of x4 for some reason.

[Saintheart]

In terms of how a fear-blasting half-dragon War Hulk could work, the following feats come from The Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) and might be considered so you're not just a beatstick.

The principle to fear builds is that shaken effects stack: if you impose a 'shaken' effect on an already shaken opponent, the opponent then becomes frightened. Make a frightened opponent shaken again, and they're panicked, and if shaken once more, they cower. Therefore, for a frontliner, you have to hit the target with a quick succession of fear effects.

Barbarians synergise well with War Hulk, and barbarian has access to Intimidating Rage. You also need to take the skill trick Never Outnumbered which extends the coverage of this feat to every enemy within 10 feet. Next up is Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark, p. 50) If you demoralise an opponent in combat, the opponent cowers in fear for 1 round and is shaken for as long as your rage continues, per Intimidating Rage.

Awaken Frightful Presence operates whenever you charge, attack or fly overhead.

So: charge an opponent. Awaken Frightful Presence kicks in. Assuming it works, the target is now shaken at least. Then you turn your rage on. Intimidating Rage kicks in. Every target within 10 feet now has to save or be shaken again, which means they're frightened and have to flee, if indeed they're not cowering. If you're focusing on AoOs and have reach, the enemy has to bite at least one AoO as they run like hell -- orrrrr, if you use Large and In Charge like I said, you stop them moving which means they cower and are locked down.

Dreadful Wrath (Player's Guide to Faerun p. 38) adds extra gravy in theory and enhances Awaken Frightful Presence on the terms of the feat, but for a half-dragon Awaken Frightful Presence is superior and doesn't require species-shifting shenanigans to qualify for it (as Dreadful Wrath does since you have to be human or planetouched to get it.)

A fear build does require a half-decent CHA (indeed at least 11 to qualify for Awaken Frightful Presence) of course, or a flexible DM who would be prepared to allow Dragon magazine supplements: Dragon Magazine has an ACF called "Fearsome Gaze" that at level 7 barbarian allows you to make Intimidate a STR-based skill rather than a CHA-based skill, and gives a +4 to Intimidate checks if the target is within 60 feet. Alternatively, p. 33 of the DMG gives the DM power to shift skills to key off different attributes, e.g. Intimidate keying off STR rather than CHA.

There's also the Fearsome armour quality in Drow of the Underdark that for a flat 5000 gp gives you armor spikes if you didn't have them, lets you demoralize in combat as a move action, and gives +5 enhancement bonus to Intimidate.

[Immabozo]

In terms of how a fear-blasting half-dragon War Hulk could work, the following feats come from The Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) and might be considered so you're not just a beatstick.

The principle to fear builds is that shaken effects stack: if you impose a 'shaken' effect on an already shaken opponent, the opponent then becomes frightened. Make a frightened opponent shaken again, and they're panicked, and if shaken once more, they cower. Therefore, for a frontliner, you have to hit the target with a quick succession of fear effects.

Barbarians synergise well with War Hulk, and barbarian has access to Intimidating Rage. You also need to take the skill trick Never Outnumbered which extends the coverage of this feat to every enemy within 10 feet. Next up is Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark, p. 50) If you demoralise an opponent in combat, the opponent cowers in fear for 1 round and is shaken for as long as your rage continues, per Intimidating Rage.

Awaken Frightful Presence operates whenever you charge, attack or fly overhead.

So: charge an opponent. Awaken Frightful Presence kicks in. Assuming it works, the target is now shaken at least. Then you turn your rage on. Intimidating Rage kicks in. Every target within 10 feet now has to save or be shaken again, which means they're frightened and have to flee, if indeed they're not cowering. If you're focusing on AoOs and have reach, the enemy has to bite at least one AoO as they run like hell -- orrrrr, if you use Large and In Charge like I said, you stop them moving which means they cower and are locked down.

Dreadful Wrath (Player's Guide to Faerun p. 38) adds extra gravy in theory and enhances Awaken Frightful Presence on the terms of the feat, but for a half-dragon Awaken Frightful Presence is superior and doesn't require species-shifting shenanigans to qualify for it (as Dreadful Wrath does since you have to be human or planetouched to get it.)

A fear build does require a half-decent CHA (indeed at least 11 to qualify for Awaken Frightful Presence) of course, or a flexible DM who would be prepared to allow Dragon magazine supplements: Dragon Magazine has an ACF called "Fearsome Gaze" that at level 7 barbarian allows you to make Intimidate a STR-based skill rather than a CHA-based skill, and gives a +4 to Intimidate checks if the target is within 60 feet. Alternatively, p. 33 of the DMG gives the DM power to shift skills to key off different attributes, e.g. Intimidate keying off STR rather than CHA.

There's also the Fearsome armour quality in Drow of the Underdark that for a flat 5000 gp gives you armor spikes if you didn't have them, lets you demoralize in combat as a move action, and gives +5 enhancement bonus to Intimidate.

I'm loving the fear build. I'm also loving the dragon build and the Kotari Resin weapons!

[lunar2]

another point in favor of half dragon. if you're large, you get wings and an (Ex) fly speed. that definitely helps make up for the +3 level adjustment.

[Immabozo]

another point in favor of half dragon. if you're large, you get wings and an (Ex) fly speed. that definitely helps make up for the +3 level adjustment.

Being large will require even more of a LA though!!

But it is nice

[lunar2]

again. goliath barbarian substitution level. expansion power, etc. nothing says you have to be large all the time. you just only have the wings while you are large.

"Speed
A half-dragon that is Large or larger has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed (maximum 120 ft.) with average maneuverability. A half-dragon that is Medium or smaller does not have wings."

it doesn't matter what size the base creature normally is. all large or larger half dragons have wings, and all medium or smaller half dragons don't have wings. so a medium half dragon that becomes temporarily large does grow wings for the duration of the size change.

[Immabozo]

again. goliath barbarian substitution level. expansion power, etc. nothing says you have to be large all the time. you just only have the wings while you are large.

"Speed
A half-dragon that is Large or larger has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed (maximum 120 ft.) with average maneuverability. A half-dragon that is Medium or smaller does not have wings."

it doesn't matter what size the base creature normally is. all large or larger half dragons have wings, and all medium or smaller half dragons don't have wings. so a medium half dragon that becomes temporarily large does grow wings for the duration of the size change.

True... quite true. Although, I personally like to picture it as they DO have wings, they just aren't strong enough to do anything effective. But that's just me.

[Saintheart]

One other note for the fear-blasting War Hulk who's forced to have a high CHA: the weapon quality Sudden Stunning from the PHB 2 requires only (IIRC, AFB) +1,000 gold or so to basically turn your weapon into a monk's stunning fist, keying off your CHA score. So this gives you yet another option for potential battlefield control.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Since War Hulk is all about having a big reach, how about Large and In Charge from the Draconomicon?

The prereqs should be easy for a War Hulk to hit: natural reach of 10 feet, size Large or larger. The effect is to keep opponents from closing to range with you. If you hit with an AoO against someone moving in your threatened area, you can make an opposed STR check to push the opponent back 5 feet to the square it just left -- and it can't move any further that round. Combining with Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon, you now have a battlefield control function: locking down opponents up to 20 feet away as they try to close with your friends, not just you.

In fact, Large and In Charge if you look at it myopically has the potential to impose paralysis for a round: the feat's text says you "cannot move any farther", which one could argue means can't move at all -- no spellcasting, no defence, no Dex bonus to AC, considered flatfooted... :)

Why bother? Use a Spiked Chain and Improved Trip. If they are prone, they cannot continue moving.

[Saintheart]

Why bother? Use a Spiked Chain and Improved Trip. If they are prone, they cannot continue moving.

Improved Trip requires you have INT 13 and Combat Expertise. Since you're going to lose INT-based skills when you start hulking up you might as well make INT a dump stat, no?

Also, Improved Trip is a trip attack. Even with Improved Trip, a trip attack allows the target to pick the better of either its STR or its DEX to oppose the attempt, and it allows a retaliatory trip attempt by the enemy if yours fails.

Large and In Charge (LAIC) forces an opposed STR check only, which as a War Hulk you're a lot more likely to win -- not to mention you'll get progressively better at it since every level in War Hulk adds another +2 to STR rather than BAB.
- Unlike trip, it doesn't give the opponent any bonuses if it has more than two legs.
- Unlike trip, it does not force you to opt out of melee damage in order to secure a chance at getting that melee damage against a prone target: LAIC specifies your AoO has to succeed before you get a chance at using it, so you don't lose the potential of melee damage.
- LAIC also gives you bonuses on the STR roll, keying off how much hitpoint damage you did to the opponent on the AoO, which again will increase level by level as the War Hulk gets stronger or his gear gets more lethal.

- And, at the most basic analysis, to get effectively the same result out of Improved Trip as LAIC, you need one less roll for LAIC: trip requires a touch roll, then succeed on the trip attempt, then succeed on the melee attack while the opponent is prone. LAIC requires an AoO succeed, and then only requires the opposed STR check succeed to push the opponent back (which Improved Trip also doesn't do) and stop it from moving (which Improved Trip does, in effect).

I'm not saying it's for every War Hulk, only the ones that are going down the path of getting Large, getting an extended reach, and looking at some battlefield control.

Lastly, the opportunity cost is theoretically less: a War Hulk is probably going to go for Large size and long natural reach anyway, which will cost you maybe one feat slot if you get Large by using other than feats. Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise first, with no feasible alternate ways of getting I. Trip that I can think of off the top of my head. Burning 1 feat slot is better than burning 2 to get the same effect.

EDIT: Actually, it's the same opp. cost for both: Willing Deformity + Large and In Charge vs. Combat Expertise and then Improved Trip.

EDIT THE SECOND: Just see Draz's post below about opportunity costs for Improved Trip. :)

[Draz74]

One other note for the fear-blasting War Hulk who's forced to have a high CHA: the weapon quality Sudden Stunning from the PHB 2 requires only (IIRC, AFB) +1,000 gold or so to basically turn your weapon into a monk's stunning fist, keying off your CHA score. So this gives you yet another option for potential battlefield control.
Or Stunning Surge, which is MIC's less-likely-to-be-banned version of the same ability. Still quite powerful.


Improved Trip requires you have INT 13 and Combat Expertise

... or a 2-level dip in Wolf Totem Barbarian.

[Immabozo]

I added the Bear Warrior to the "other PrC" with my RAW argument for it

[Kazyan]

Another race for consideration, found while looking for a playable Large race: the Maug (Fiend Folio). As-written, nothing special. But you can slap Incarnate Construct on it and lose little to nothing. This turns it into an LA +1, 2 RHD Giant, with +10 Str, large size, and a bucket of natural armor. It's a rock-solid option.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Improved Trip requires you have INT 13 and Combat Expertise. Since you're going to lose INT-based skills when you start hulking up you might as well make INT a dump stat, no?

Also, Improved Trip is a trip attack. Even with Improved Trip, a trip attack allows the target to pick the better of either its STR or its DEX to oppose the attempt, and it allows a retaliatory trip attempt by the enemy if yours fails.

Large and In Charge (LAIC) forces an opposed STR check only, which as a War Hulk you're a lot more likely to win -- not to mention you'll get progressively better at it since every level in War Hulk adds another +2 to STR rather than BAB.
- Unlike trip, it doesn't give the opponent any bonuses if it has more than two legs.
- Unlike trip, it does not force you to opt out of melee damage in order to secure a chance at getting that melee damage against a prone target: LAIC specifies your AoO has to succeed before you get a chance at using it, so you don't lose the potential of melee damage.
- LAIC also gives you bonuses on the STR roll, keying off how much hitpoint damage you did to the opponent on the AoO, which again will increase level by level as the War Hulk gets stronger or his gear gets more lethal.

- And, at the most basic analysis, to get effectively the same result out of Improved Trip as LAIC, you need one less roll for LAIC: trip requires a touch roll, then succeed on the trip attempt, then succeed on the melee attack while the opponent is prone. LAIC requires an AoO succeed, and then only requires the opposed STR check succeed to push the opponent back (which Improved Trip also doesn't do) and stop it from moving (which Improved Trip does, in effect).

I'm not saying it's for every War Hulk, only the ones that are going down the path of getting Large, getting an extended reach, and looking at some battlefield control.

Lastly, the opportunity cost is theoretically less: a War Hulk is probably going to go for Large size and long natural reach anyway, which will cost you maybe one feat slot if you get Large by using other than feats. Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise first, with no feasible alternate ways of getting I. Trip that I can think of off the top of my head. Burning 1 feat slot is better than burning 2 to get the same effect.

EDIT: Actually, it's the same opp. cost for both: Willing Deformity + Large and In Charge vs. Combat Expertise and then Improved Trip.

EDIT THE SECOND: Just see Draz's post below about opportunity costs for Improved Trip. :)

As Draz mentioned, you can obviate the Int and feat requirement with Wolf Totem Barbarian which is, as you mentioned, a great lead-in point anyways.

Improved Trip gives a significant bonus to your trip attempt, and very few opponents have a higher DEX than STR to take advantage of that option, so you're basically going Str vs Str.

Now, you're at least Large already. If you pick up some PsiWar for Expansion, you can easily hit Huge or even Gargantuan. Which means size bonuses to trip attempts are generally going to be in your favor. Stable doesn't help much with your boosted Str and size bonuses weighing in on your favor.

Furthermore, Prone has a lot of problems. He can either take a penalty to hit people (and mind you, still likely out of range of you for melee attacks), or he can provoke an AoO to stand back up. If your first swing didn't kill him, this one should, or you are in the wrong fight.

Furthermore, Improved Trip is a touch attack. If you can't hit an opponent's Touch AC with your foreseeable attack bonuses, you've got MUCH bigger problems. In fact, this can be a great way to make hitting opponents more reliable, since it is easier to hit a Prone opponent.

So, you get it effectively for free (well, for Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense, but neither of those are really important to this build), and it inflicts a negative status condition as well as halting movement, and it is easier to land.

So yea... looks to me to be inherently superior option.

[Necroticplague]

Since using the trip is still an AoO, couldn't you just combine both?If your trip hits the touch, but you fail to trip, then you use Large and in Charge as a safety net?

[Immabozo]

Another race for consideration, found while looking for a playable Large race: the Maug (Fiend Folio). As-written, nothing special. But you can slap Incarnate Construct on it and lose little to nothing. This turns it into an LA +1, 2 RHD Giant, with +10 Str, large size, and a bucket of natural armor. It's a rock-solid option.

interesting one, Ill be sure to add it

[Saintheart]

*shrug* I'm not going to argue theoretical builds because there's too many variables involved. There's always a 5% chance of rolling a natural 1 in any attack -- touch or regular melee. And a trip attack gives two chances at that natural 1 if you carry it through to melee damage. For me personally with this character concept I'd rather fewer opportunities to screw up than more. Not to mention that an opponent I can stop moving at least five feet further back than he wanted to go, and able to move no closer to me, is roughly equivalent with a prone opponent who can still stand up next to me, even if he attracts another AoO to do so.

As with all feats and combinations, Spiked Chain + Improved Trip depends on the build used. Or indeed the DM involved. If you want to take, I dunno, Pounce and thereby force yourself to become a a Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, would a DM then allow you to take a Wolf Totem Barbarian variant at second level? Or if you don't like being just another Spiked Chain wielder? Hell, a DM might personally rule that because War Hulk kills all INT/WIS/CHA-based skills, a Psionic Warrior can't work at all because of "I HAZ NO BRAIN" on the War Hulk :D

Anyway, it's Immabozo's handbook, let's leave it to him to compute the effectiveness :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

@ NecroticPlague: Interesting possibility, because the condition for the opposed STR check to trigger on LAIC is only "when you make a successful attack of opportunity". However, I would've thought most DMs would say that if you decide to choose a trip on an AoO, then that trip attempt has to succeed for there to have been a "successful" AoO, since if the trip attempt fails you don't get to go on and revert to a regular melee attack. Nothing wrong with having both feats, though, especially if you want to push an opponent around on the field -- which LAIC does allow and Improved Trip doesn't.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

*shrug* I'm not going to argue theoretical builds because there's too many variables involved. There's always a 5% chance of rolling a natural 1 in any attack -- touch or regular melee. And a trip attack gives two chances at that natural 1 if you carry it through to melee damage. For me personally with this character concept I'd rather fewer opportunities to screw up than more. Not to mention that an opponent I can stop moving at least five feet further back than he wanted to go, and able to move no closer to me, is roughly equivalent with a prone opponent who can still stand up next to me, even if he attracts another AoO to do so.When you knock someone prone, they don't have a lot of movement options. Besides, Prone is a fairly serious status condition which makes him easier for the whole party to kill. And if he tries to stand back up... more free shots.

This isn't your 'character concept', this is a War Hulk Handbook. Attempting to dismiss something because it doesn't 'fit your character concept' is trite.

Furthermore, your earlier argument about being tripped in return is false by a) having Improved Trip negates this chance, and b) having a tripping weapon negates this. Most builds using this tactic use both.


As with all feats and combinations, Spiked Chain + Improved Trip depends on the build used. Or indeed the DM involved. If you want to take, I dunno, Pounce and thereby force yourself to become a a Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, would a DM then allow you to take a Wolf Totem Barbarian variant at second level? Or if you don't like being just another Spiked Chain wielder? Hell, a DM might personally rule that because War Hulk kills all INT/WIS/CHA-based skills, a Psionic Warrior can't work at all because of "I HAZ NO BRAIN" on the War Hulk :DEVERYTHING depends on the build used or DM involved. Some DM's don't allow ANY variants. Some DM's see that Spirit Lion Totem doesn't conflict with Wolf Totem and permits it. Some DM's think that anything outside the PhB is 'imba'. Attempting to use Rule 0 to justify something is an act of futility.

ANY Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 can do the tripping. No templating necessary. Also, since a Trip attempt is an attack action, the Barbarian can apply it when he is moving forward and attacking all opponents with an attack action via War Hulk, giving you defensive capability in your offensive capability.


Anyway, it's Immabozo's handbook, let's leave it to him to compute the effectiveness :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:Yes, it is indeed his, not yours. I was providing additional options which have a lower incidental cost and more utility.

[Immabozo]

Anyway, it's Immabozo's handbook, let's leave it to him to compute the effectiveness :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

Yes, it is indeed his, not yours. I was providing additional options which have a lower incidental cost and more utility.

Saintheart, you are right, yet very, very evil.

ShneekeyTheLost, thank you for your help! I dont pretend to even come close to knowing all the possibilities.

[Immabozo]

Another race for consideration, found while looking for a playable Large race: the Maug (Fiend Folio). As-written, nothing special. But you can slap Incarnate Construct on it and lose little to nothing. This turns it into an LA +1, 2 RHD Giant, with +10 Str, large size, and a bucket of natural armor. It's a rock-solid option.

Added and credit given to you for it!

[KillianHawkeye]

Regarding the Bear Warrior:



Check the Complete Warrior errata. It removes the contradictory text, making it so that you get your bear form every time you rage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Regarding the Bear Warrior:



Check the Complete Warrior errata. It removes the contradictory text, making it so that you get your bear form every time you rage.

And if Mountainous Rage can qualify you for the Large Size requirement for War Hulk, so should being a Large size Bear.

[Immabozo]

Regarding the Bear Warrior:

Check the Complete Warrior errata. It removes the contradictory text, making it so that you get your bear form every time you rage.

haha, I so should have thought of that!

[KillianHawkeye]

And if Mountainous Rage can qualify you for the Large Size requirement for War Hulk, so should being a Large size Bear.

True, but it takes too many levels to get the Large size bear form. ECL 12 at the minimum.

[Immabozo]

Read bear warrior errata and updated the PAW/I argument I have under the Bear Warrior

[ShneekeyTheLost]

True, but it takes too many levels to get the Large size bear form. ECL 12 at the minimum.

Valid point, you won't be able to hit the capstone on War Hulk if you use this for entry.

[Zombulian]

Another race for consideration, found while looking for a playable Large race: the Maug (Fiend Folio). As-written, nothing special. But you can slap Incarnate Construct on it and lose little to nothing. This turns it into an LA +1, 2 RHD Giant, with +10 Str, large size, and a bucket of natural armor. It's a rock-solid option.

Yeesh, once you bring Incarnate Construct into the mix everything just goes wonky. Though I suppose using it on things like the Maug is more the point of the template than the abuse it is often used for.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Also considder balanced weapon enchant. gives you a weapon one size bigger to use. Maybe combine with strongarm bracers?

Or make it a Heavy weapon (gold or platinum) to increase dmg even more.

[Immabozo]

Yeesh, once you bring Incarnate Construct into the mix everything just goes wonky. Though I suppose using it on things like the Maug is more the point of the template than the abuse it is often used for.

What kind of shinanigans is it usually used for? I can see making some great template free? Or something?


Also considder balanced weapon enchant. gives you a weapon one size bigger to use. Maybe combine with strongarm bracers?

Or make it a Heavy weapon (gold or platinum) to increase dmg even more.

What book is the balanced enchantment in? And what book are the heavy (gold/platinum) weapons in?

[Zombulian]

What kind of shinanigans is it usually used for? I can see making some great template free? Or something?


Plopping it on a Warforged or some other LA +0 construct and stacking templates on, yeah.

[Swaoeaeieu]

What book is the balanced enchantment in? And what book are the heavy (gold/platinum) weapons in?

Balanced is from Arms and equipment guide
Heavy materials is from magic of fearun.

Does anyone know if stacking balanced and strongarm bracers is RAW legal?

[Immabozo]

Plopping it on a Warforged or some other LA +0 construct and stacking templates on, yeah.

I can see that. What are some popular ones? Like lycanthropy? Or a 1 LA half dragon?


Balanced is from Arms and equipment guide
Heavy materials is from magic of fearun.

Does anyone know if stacking balanced and strongarm bracers is RAW legal?

Thanks!

[Zombulian]

I can see that. What are some popular ones? Like lycanthropy? Or a 1 LA half dragon?



Thanks!

Half-Mino and Half Ogre of course. White Dragonspawn. Mineral warrior. Insectile. Stuff like that.

[Saintheart]

Balanced is from Arms and equipment guide
Heavy materials is from magic of fearun.

Does anyone know if stacking balanced and strongarm bracers is RAW legal?

Balanced: "A creature one size smaller than the weapon can use it in one hand."

Strongarm Bracers: "When wearing Strongarm Bracers, you can wield weapons as if you were one size category larger than normal." (e.g. human could use Large weapon without penalty). "The effect of these bracers does not stack with the Powerful Build trait".

By pure RAW, it looks like they stack, assuming no errata since then which I haven't looked into extensively; these are the readings out of the A&E Guide and MIC, respectively.

On the other hand, if you're focusing on Power Attack, I would've thought you'd be staying two-handed anyway? Power Attack gives its best bonuses when you're wielding two-handed weapons, granting 2 points (or 3 if you combine with Leap Attack) of damage for every point of attack bonus invested. All the Balanced quality seems to do on RAW is allow you to use a weapon that you'd ordinarily need in two hands in one.

EDIT: Oh, I see. If you stack the effects, your Medium longsword with 1d8 damage dice becomes a Huge longsword with 3d6 damage dice.

[Metahuman1]

Don't know if anyone's already thrown this build out here yet but here's one off the top of my head.


Cleric 8/ Prestige Paladin 1/ Exotic Weapons Master 1/ Warhulk 10.


Use DMM persist to get the full BAB and Righteous Might along with some other little gems (Haste, Displacement, Alter Self, Lesser Vigor.) And that one level in Paladin get's me some AWESOME gems off the Paladin spell list (Lions Charge + Rhino's Rush as persisted spells? Can I say YES strongly enough?!! Or Persisted Warning Shout and Find the Gap?!)

Rightous Might can be used as the Large Qualifier to get you into Warhulk, but I'd rather have a template or base race do that and just buy a Ring of Reduction at that level. Maybe one restricted to my race/template combo and my alignment and my class combo.


But here's the real Gem, with all the Size and Str boosts your getting on this build form spells and Warhulk itself, your also getting double Str to damage with what ever Exotic weapon you entered with. True, you had to throw away some skill points into a throwaway skill and pick up a couple of crap feats, but the pay off is totally worth it. Heck I would even argue that you might not even need power attack anymore except to drop 1 BAB into so you can trigger a cleave.

If you want to get really Batcrap crazy, use spell craft to research a couple of Ability booster spells along the lines of bulls strength and it's Ilk that give a +6 to each ability score and Persist a couple of those.


The only thing I haven't figured out a way around is how to keep 3 ranks active in Craft: Weapons making so that you can combine your persisted spells and Warhulk class features with your Exotic Weapons Master Trick.

[Saintheart]

Don't know if anyone's already thrown this build out here yet but here's one off the top of my head.


Cleric 8/ Prestige Paladin 1/ Exotic Weapons Master 1/ Warhulk 10.


Use DMM persist to get the full BAB and Righteous Might along with some other little gems (Haste, Displacement, Alter Self, Lesser Vigor.) And that one level in Paladin get's me some AWESOME gems off the Paladin spell list (Lions Charge + Rhino's Rush as persisted spells? Can I say YES strongly enough?!! Or Persisted Warning Shout and Find the Gap?!)

Rightous Might can be used as the Large Qualifier to get you into Warhulk, but I'd rather have a template or base race do that and just buy a Ring of Reduction at that level. Maybe one restricted to my race/template combo and my alignment and my class combo.


But here's the real Gem, with all the Size and Str boosts your getting on this build form spells and Warhulk itself, your also getting double Str to damage with what ever Exotic weapon you entered with. True, you had to throw away some skill points into a throwaway skill and pick up a couple of crap feats, but the pay off is totally worth it. Heck I would even argue that you might not even need power attack anymore except to drop 1 BAB into so you can trigger a cleave.

If you want to get really Batcrap crazy, use spell craft to research a couple of Ability booster spells along the lines of bulls strength and it's Ilk that give a +6 to each ability score and Persist a couple of those.


The only thing I haven't figured out a way around is how to keep 3 ranks active in Craft: Weapons making so that you can combine your persisted spells and Warhulk class features with your Exotic Weapons Master Trick.

...not bad, but Prestige Paladin has Knowledge skills as its prereqs. The moment you go into War Hulk you're explicitly considered to have 0 ranks in any INT/WIS/CHA based skill. If you take the view that you fall out of a PrC if you can't always satisfy the prerequisites, then Prestige Paladin disappears from the mix. And in retrospect, Exotic Weapon Master might, too -- because it has a prereq of Craft (weaponsmithing), which is an INT-based skill as well. Unless I'm reading it wrong?

EDIT: If you took Paladin as a base class dip rather than a PrC in order to open up the Paladin spell list, it might work better, though.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Balanced: "A creature one size smaller than the weapon can use it in one hand."

Strongarm Bracers: "When wearing Strongarm Bracers, you can wield weapons as if you were one size category larger than normal." (e.g. human could use Large weapon without penalty). "The effect of these bracers does not stack with the Powerful Build trait".

By pure RAW, it looks like they stack, assuming no errata since then which I haven't looked into extensively; these are the readings out of the A&E Guide and MIC, respectively.

On the other hand, if you're focusing on Power Attack, I would've thought you'd be staying two-handed anyway? Power Attack gives its best bonuses when you're wielding two-handed weapons, granting 2 points (or 3 if you combine with Leap Attack) of damage for every point of attack bonus invested. All the Balanced quality seems to do on RAW is allow you to use a weapon that you'd ordinarily need in two hands in one.

EDIT: Oh, I see. If you stack the effects, your Medium longsword with 1d8 damage dice becomes a Huge longsword with 3d6 damage dice.

And if i remember my rules correctly, nothing prevents you from using a rather big one-handed weapon with two hands. just because you could use one hand does not mean you cannot use two for a bit more power.

warhulks are already large. So give them a gargantuan greathorn greathammer for a nice dmg die.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I had a Bruce Banner build around somewhere. Strongheart Halfling with a Str of 6. I believe the build was:

Monk2/Stoneblessed3/Barbarian1(mountainous rage and spirit lion totem variants)/crusader1/Hulking Hurler/War Hulk10/Frenzied Berserker1

The FB dip you can lose if you actually want a viable build, it does nothing but make you go flying off the handle if you fail a Will save (rather like Bruce's little problem with... yanno... the 'other guy'...).

You take the Crusader stance that heals you for every hit on an opponent. Then pick up a Skillful Spiked Chain. Everything around you starts dropping fast.

Because Mountainous Rage gives you stat bonuses 'as though you are actually Large size', going from Small to Large (according to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) chart) gives you a bonus of +12 (+4 for hitting Medium, and another +8 for hitting Large). So his Str of 6 suddenly goes up to 18. Then you get to add +20 on top of that from Warhulk. Then you get all the other stat bonuses from leveling, and item bonuses, you get up into the 40's pretty easily. Not a bad Str rating.

From there, you just Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Shock Trooper your way through all the things.

Imperious Command + Intimidating Rage + Never Outnumbered is also effective for battlefield control if something manages to not be tripped and/or killed.

[Immabozo]

Don't know if anyone's already thrown this build out here yet but here's one off the top of my head.

Cleric 8/ Prestige Paladin 1/ Exotic Weapons Master 1/ Warhulk 10.

Use DMM persist to get the full BAB and Righteous Might along with some other little gems (Haste, Displacement, Alter Self, Lesser Vigor.) And that one level in Paladin get's me some AWESOME gems off the Paladin spell list (Lions Charge + Rhino's Rush as persisted spells? Can I say YES strongly enough?!! Or Persisted Warning Shout and Find the Gap?!)

Rightous Might can be used as the Large Qualifier to get you into Warhulk, but I'd rather have a template or base race do that and just buy a Ring of Reduction at that level. Maybe one restricted to my race/template combo and my alignment and my class combo.


But here's the real Gem, with all the Size and Str boosts your getting on this build form spells and Warhulk itself, your also getting double Str to damage with what ever Exotic weapon you entered with. True, you had to throw away some skill points into a throwaway skill and pick up a couple of crap feats, but the pay off is totally worth it. Heck I would even argue that you might not even need power attack anymore except to drop 1 BAB into so you can trigger a cleave.

If you want to get really Batcrap crazy, use spell craft to research a couple of Ability booster spells along the lines of bulls strength and it's Ilk that give a +6 to each ability score and Persist a couple of those.


The only thing I haven't figured out a way around is how to keep 3 ranks active in Craft: Weapons making so that you can combine your persisted spells and Warhulk class features with your Exotic Weapons Master Trick.

Added, credit given


I had a Bruce Banner build around somewhere. Strongheart Halfling with a Str of 6. I believe the build was:

Monk2/Stoneblessed3/Barbarian1(mountainous rage and spirit lion totem variants)/crusader1/Hulking Hurler/War Hulk10/Frenzied Berserker1

The FB dip you can lose if you actually want a viable build, it does nothing but make you go flying off the handle if you fail a Will save (rather like Bruce's little problem with... yanno... the 'other guy'...).

You take the Crusader stance that heals you for every hit on an opponent. Then pick up a Skillful Spiked Chain. Everything around you starts dropping fast.

Because Mountainous Rage gives you stat bonuses 'as though you are actually Large size', going from Small to Large (according to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) chart) gives you a bonus of +12 (+4 for hitting Medium, and another +8 for hitting Large). So his Str of 6 suddenly goes up to 18. Then you get to add +20 on top of that from Warhulk. Then you get all the other stat bonuses from leveling, and item bonuses, you get up into the 40's pretty easily. Not a bad Str rating.

From there, you just Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Shock Trooper your way through all the things.

Imperious Command + Intimidating Rage + Never Outnumbered is also effective for battlefield control if something manages to not be tripped and/or killed.

I love it!

[Metahuman1]

...not bad, but Prestige Paladin has Knowledge skills as its prereqs. The moment you go into War Hulk you're explicitly considered to have 0 ranks in any INT/WIS/CHA based skill. If you take the view that you fall out of a PrC if you can't always satisfy the prerequisites, then Prestige Paladin disappears from the mix. And in retrospect, Exotic Weapon Master might, too -- because it has a prereq of Craft (weaponsmithing), which is an INT-based skill as well. Unless I'm reading it wrong?

EDIT: If you took Paladin as a base class dip rather than a PrC in order to open up the Paladin spell list, it might work better, though.

It does? I realized I needed a way to have Craft Weaponsmithing maintained but I wasn't banking on Knowledge skills.

Using Paladin as a base class kinda doesn't work since it takes 4 lvls to get the spells, and even then you'd need wands or something to use anything past 1st lvl Pally spells.



Now that I think about it, maybe create an affiliation and build it up for a few levels, say form 6 (When you can take leadership.) till 9th, and make the big benefit gaining bonuses to skills of your choice. And make the bonuses be treated as ranks, but only for the purposes of getting into a PrC.

That way you get around the skill lock, and can Persist your Pally spells at the start of the day along with your cleric spells, and then maintain your wonderful x2 Str Mod to Damage.

[Saintheart]

It does? I realized I needed a way to have Craft Weaponsmithing maintained but I wasn't banking on Knowledge skills.

If we're talking about the SRD version, i.e. the Unearthed Arcana version, then yes, you need Knowledge skills. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)

Also, this is a wider question which I could be wrong on, but I don't think you actually get Paladin spells as a Prestige Paladin per RAW.

The PP's spells per day entry says: "At every odd numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class." (Emphasis added) Assuming cleric entry, that means more cleric spells, not adding the Paladin list to his spellcasting. It's an entirely different wording to the base class Paladin which does specify the Paladin list. Unless there's an errata or something I haven't heard of...

Ridiculous, yes, but that's RAW I suppose.

[Immabozo]

Few formatting changes. Once I have more energy, I'll add the suggested item updates

[lunar2]

@bear warrior. you can do a 1 level dip in bear warrior for the bonus to strength if you are using the goliath barbarian substitution level to qualify for warhulk. mountain rage explicitly sets your size to large, and because you always apply bonuses in the order that is most beneficial, your rage transforms you into a medium black bear, and then mountain rage makes you large.

[mattie_p]

Also, this is a wider question which I could be wrong on, but I don't think you actually get Paladin spells as a Prestige Paladin per RAW.

The PP's spells per day entry says: "At every odd numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class." (Emphasis added) Assuming cleric entry, that means more cleric spells, not adding the Paladin list to his spellcasting. It's an entirely different wording to the base class Paladin which does specify the Paladin list. Unless there's an errata or something I haven't heard of...

Ridiculous, yes, but that's RAW I suppose.


Scroll up a little higher on the page.


Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

[Immabozo]

@bear warrior. you can do a 1 level dip in bear warrior for the bonus to strength if you are using the goliath barbarian substitution level to qualify for warhulk. mountain rage explicitly sets your size to large, and because you always apply bonuses in the order that is most beneficial, your rage transforms you into a medium black bear, and then mountain rage makes you large.

hmmm, interesting. I like it! I was wracking my brain trying to remember what I was forgetting. It's the Goliath Barbarian substitution levels!

[Saintheart]

Scroll up a little higher on the page.

I stand corrected. Although the quotation does also say, paraphrasing, "You can't get Paladin spells out of the Spell Compendium except on a case by case basis approved by the DM." So Rhino's Rush and other stuff like that is not available as of right, only on DM fiat.

[mattie_p]

I stand corrected. Although the quotation does also say, paraphrasing, "You can't get Paladin spells out of the Spell Compendium except on a case by case basis approved by the DM." So Rhino's Rush and other stuff like that is not available as of right, only on DM fiat.

But for discussion purposes, like in a handbook, you would be remiss if you omit them.

[Saintheart]

True. Either way, the caveat is there so people are aware of it: you can pick up stuff like Rhino's Rush for a War Hulk build, so long as you can finagle a way to keep your Knowledge ranks intact after entry into War Hulk and you can convince the DM to give you access to the Spell Compendium for the purpose of picking up its Paladin spells.

[Metahuman1]

Given the alignment restrictions you have to put up with for those spells, I'd say it's fair.


And yeah, other then a custom affiliation bonus, I can't think of anything that would let you keep your knowledge and craft ranks for Prestige Paladin and Exotic Weapons master. Which is a pity.

[Immabozo]

Given the alignment restrictions you have to put up with for those spells, I'd say it's fair.


And yeah, other then a custom affiliation bonus, I can't think of anything that would let you keep your knowledge and craft ranks for Prestige Paladin and Exotic Weapons master. Which is a pity.

Still better then the down side of possibly murdering your party

[Immabozo]

Updated the templates/races section.

What would be the LA of a stone golem with incarnate construct on it?

[lunar2]

Updated the templates/races section.

What would be the LA of a stone golem with incarnate construct on it?

LA: -

stone golems aren't playable. simply adding a template won't make them playable. that said, savage species iirc has something for ad hoc LAs.

[Immabozo]

LA: -

stone golems aren't playable. simply adding a template won't make them playable. that said, savage species iirc has something for ad hoc LAs.

Well, in the "Incarnate Construct" template, is specifically says that the intention of incarnate construct was to make iron and other golems playable.

But I'll check that out, thanks

[Immabozo]

Added Anthropomorphic Elephants to the races section

[Snowbluff]

Well, in the "Incarnate Construct" template, is specifically says that the intention of incarnate construct was to make iron and other golems playable.

But I'll check that out, thanks

IIRC, you get the -2 LA, and then RHD based on the HD of the construct.

[Immabozo]

IIRC, you get the -2 LA, and then RHD based on the HD of the construct.

sigh, really? Well I guess shenanigans would be restricted a little bit! Like war forged with a template to make it large

[Immabozo]

Added Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale to the LA 0 entry. 3 RHD, but NO LA!!!!!!! wow, good option, decent stats, I am surprised

[Zombulian]

sigh, really? Well I guess shenanigans would be restricted a little bit! Like war forged with a template to make it large

Again, this is what makes Maug so good for this template. LA +2 and fairly few RHD. Basically what IC was made for.

[Immabozo]

Again, this is what makes Maug so good for this template. LA +2 and fairly few RHD. Basically what IC was made for.

Thank you for reminding me!

[Zombulian]

Thank you for reminding me!

My bad. They actually have 2 HD and 3 LA. I was thinking the opposite. Still, very useful, and definitely not as dirty feeling as using IC in other ways.

[Immabozo]

My bad. They actually have 2 HD and 3 LA. I was thinking the opposite. Still, very useful, and definitely not as dirty feeling as using IC in other ways.

Yeah, that doesn't feel dirty in the slightest!

[Snowbluff]

sigh, really? Well I guess shenanigans would be restricted a little bit! Like war forged with a template to make it large

Um, you could make a half-golem. Or do anything to make a construct out of something. For example, A Half-Golem Insectile Half Orc would have +0 and some extra arms for taking advantage of the Str.

EDIT:

Druid entry? Do we have it? Druids can make large easily. Master of Many Forms + Wildshape Range might be an idea as well.

Wildshape Forms mostly use natural attacks, so they would not benefit much from BaB anyway.

[Immabozo]

Um, you could make a half-golem. Or do anything to make a construct out of something. For example, A Half-Golem Insectile Half Orc would have +0 and some extra arms for taking advantage of the Str.

EDIT:

Druid entry? Do we have it? Druids can make large easily. Master of Many Forms + Wildshape Range might be an idea as well.

Wildshape Forms mostly use natural attacks, so they would not benefit much from BaB anyway.

I haven't thought about that one, I like it. And Druid id one of my favorite classes!

Where can I read the half golem template?

EDIT: can you make anything into a golem? Like and Ogre golem?

[The Random NPC]

I'm surprised that Dungeon Crasher Fighter doesn't get a mention, 6 levels gets you 2 bonus fighter feats and 3 times Str mod damage if you Bull Rush people into a wall.

[Zombulian]

I haven't thought about that one, I like it. And Druid id one of my favorite classes!

Where can I read the half golem template?

EDIT: can you make anything into a golem? Like and Ogre golem?

You can make anything a half-golem. Idea is you give someone replacement golem prostetics. I believe it resides in the dreaded MM2.

[Snowbluff]

You can make anything a half-golem. Idea is you give someone replacement golem prostetics. I believe it resides in the dreaded MM2.
Yes, indeed. The MM2 brands the Half-Golems. /darksouls

Also, Divine Minion into Master of Many Forms.

[Metahuman1]

I actually Like some of the construct graphs in the MM II. The trick is to either get a skill check (like concentration) in place of the will save, or have the craziest will save EVER + multiple Luck Rerolls so you can pass it and stay a sane person with a golem limb or two (or four or what ever.)

Then tack on a Riverine shell and a couple of built in traps of an Illusion spell to make the arms appear normal and protect them from Disintegrate and Rods of cancellation and the like, and you've not got +12 Str +4 Con PER REPLACED LIMB!!!!



BTW, I think this should be listed as "The basic warhulk entry build."


Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Trap Smasher Barbarian 4/ Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/ Warhulk 10.


Now all I need is to figure out a way to make him large and a way to make him able to make the search checks to find the traps to break them.

[Immabozo]

I'm surprised that Dungeon Crasher Fighter doesn't get a mention, 6 levels gets you 2 bonus fighter feats and 3 times Str mod damage if you Bull Rush people into a wall.

I knew I was forgetting something obvious, thank you


You can make anything a half-golem. Idea is you give someone replacement golem prostetics. I believe it resides in the dreaded MM2.

I'll check it out, thanks


BTW, I think this should be listed as "The basic warhulk entry build."

Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Trap Smasher Barbarian 4/ Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/ Warhulk 10.

Now all I need is to figure out a way to make him large and a way to make him able to make the search checks to find the traps to break them.

Thats a great idea. I'll check into it. Let me know if you figure that out

[Zombulian]

I actually Like some of the construct graphs in the MM II. The trick is to either get a skill check (like concentration) in place of the will save, or have the craziest will save EVER + multiple Luck Rerolls so you can pass it and stay a sane person with a golem limb or two (or four or what ever.)

Then tack on a Riverine shell and a couple of built in traps of an Illusion spell to make the arms appear normal and protect them from Disintegrate and Rods of cancellation and the like, and you've not got +12 Str +4 Con PER REPLACED LIMB!!!!



BTW, I think this should be listed as "The basic warhulk entry build."


Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Trap Smasher Barbarian 4/ Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/ Warhulk 10.


Now all I need is to figure out a way to make him large and a way to make him able to make the search checks to find the traps to break them.

I keep looking at Riverine hoping I'll have some epiphany, but why is it the Go-to special material? What's so great?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I keep looking at Riverine hoping I'll have some epiphany, but why is it the Go-to special material? What's so great?

Mostly because it's immune to sundering and physical damage, basically a wall of force that is shaped be whatever you made it of?

[Metahuman1]

Mostly because it's immune to sundering and physical damage, basically a wall of force that is shaped be whatever you made it of?

More specifically, it's immune to everything except Disintigrate (And other spells that mimic it.) rods of Cancellation, Disjunction and the Spear of Annihilation.


Only a really, really vicious DM will use the last one on you with out a solid thematic reason AND an obvious mc-guffan to keep it from creating tpk. The rest can be countered if your smart about it. Which means if your smart about it and the DM doesn't fiat you just to do it, you can make it impossible to break your stuff, meaning you can't loose your investment unless it's stolen.



And on something like a graph, well, best of luck stealing my arm while it's attached to me!

[Immabozo]

More specifically, it's immune to everything except Disintigrate (And other spells that mimic it.) rods of Cancellation, Disjunction and the Spear of Annihilation.

Only a really, really vicious DM will use the last one on you with out a solid thematic reason AND an obvious mc-guffan to keep it from creating tpk. The rest can be countered if your smart about it. Which means if your smart about it and the DM doesn't fiat you just to do it, you can make it impossible to break your stuff, meaning you can't loose your investment unless it's stolen.

And on something like a graph, well, best of luck stealing my arm while it's attached to me!

Wow, that's cool. Is it possible to make shields and weapons out of this stuff?

[Zombulian]

Wow, that's cool. Is it possible to make shields and weapons out of this stuff?

Yahuh. Well, not sure about weapons.

[Immabozo]

Yahuh. Well, not sure about weapons.

What book is it from?

[Zombulian]

What book is it from?

Stormwrack.

[Immabozo]

thanks! I'll check it out

[Necroticplague]

More specifically, it's immune to everything except Disintigrate (And other spells that mimic it.) rods of Cancellation, Disjunction and the Spear of Annihilation.


Only a really, really vicious DM will use the last one on you with out a solid thematic reason AND an obvious mc-guffan to keep it from creating tpk. The rest can be countered if your smart about it. Which means if your smart about it and the DM doesn't fiat you just to do it, you can make it impossible to break your stuff, meaning you can't loose your investment unless it's stolen.



And on something like a graph, well, best of luck stealing my arm while it's attached to me!
Fortunately, spellblade shuriken are relatively cheap, so the weakness to specific effects can be negated by just having a bunch of shuriken, each attuned to a different spell you're weak to. Having one against disjunction is a good idea anyway.

(and a side note, it's "Sphere of Annihilation", along with being "like a graft")

[123456789blaaa]

I've been toying with a Setting Sun swordsage/War Hulk/Assassin build lately. The idea is to use War Hulks 4th level ability to Death Attack 3 people at once while buffing with assassin spells and using Setting Sun strikes to make up for low BAB and take advantage of the strength boosts from War Hulk. The race would be a primordial giant half-ogre picking invisibility as the SLA from the template.

The War Hulk levels just don't seem worth it though. Death Attack+Mighty Swing is a cute trick but just doesn't seem to make up for what you lose by taking 4 War Hulk levels. Any ideas on how to salvage the idea?

[Immabozo]

I've been toying with a Setting Sun swordsage/War Hulk/Assassin build lately. The idea is to use War Hulks 4th level ability to Death Attack 3 people at once while buffing with assassin spells and using Setting Sun strikes to make up for low BAB and take advantage of the strength boosts from War Hulk. The race would be a primordial giant half-ogre picking invisibility as the SLA from the template.

The War Hulk levels just don't seem worth it though. Death Attack+Mighty Swing is a cute trick but just doesn't seem to make up for what you lose by taking 4 War Hulk levels. Any ideas on how to salvage the idea?

Although cute, I dont think it works.


If a war hulk uses a special attack (such as disarm, trip or sunder) the special attack affects only the first target, the other creatures are attacked normally

For the surprise attack save-or-die build, I recommend avoiding War Hulk. War Hulk is more the "Brute strength will win out over finesse any day" class. I would love to see something with poison use, maybe that ups the DCs of your poisons. I know the "save-or-Die" stuff only gets better when it says "oh, you did? Bet you can't do it again!"

EDIT: wow, poisons might just be amazing on a war hulk!

[Immabozo]

Added a "Weaponize Drugs!" section at the end of the equipment section

[mattie_p]

Did we get clarification on "No time to think" yet? Considered to have 0 ranks in all int, wis, and cha skills. Assassin has prerequisite of 4 ranks in Disguise (Cha).

[123456789blaaa]

Although cute, I dont think it works.



For the surprise attack save-or-die build, I recommend avoiding War Hulk. War Hulk is more the "Brute strength will win out over finesse any day" class. I would love to see something with poison use, maybe that ups the DCs of your poisons. I know the "save-or-Die" stuff only gets better when it says "oh, you did? Bet you can't do it again!"

EDIT: wow, poisons might just be amazing on a war hulk!

"Special Attack" is actually defined in the books.All the special attacks are: Aiding another, Bull rushing, Charging, Disarming, Feinting, Grappling, Mounted Combat, Overruning, Sundering,Throwing splash weapons, Tripping,Turning (rebuking) undead , and Two-weapon fighting.

Also, I noticed you put a mini-section on lycanthropes into the guide. I actually made a thread for the best lycanthrope animals and builds. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254888). Looking over it, the nifern, sewarm, and Desmodu Guard Bat seem to be the best choices for a War Hulk. Nifern and sewarm have the added bonus of getting you poison.

[Immabozo]

"Special Attack" is actually defined in the books.All the special attacks are: Aiding another, Bull rushing, Charging, Disarming, Feinting, Grappling, Mounted Combat, Overruning, Sundering,Throwing splash weapons, Tripping,Turning (rebuking) undead , and Two-weapon fighting.

Also, I noticed you put a mini-section on lycanthropes into the guide. I actually made a thread for the best lycanthrope animals and builds. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254888). Looking over it, the nifern, sewarm, and Desmodu Guard Bat seem to be the best choices for a War Hulk. Nifern and sewarm have the added bonus of getting you poison.

That's perfect, thank you!

So how is an assassins death attack not a special attack? Well, if the attack qualifies to kill 3 at a time, I love it!

[herrhauptmann]

That's perfect, thank you!

So how is an assassins death attack not a special attack? Well, if the attack qualifies to kill 3 at a time, I love it!

You can only study one target at a time for the death attack, so you'd only get one death attack at a time, no matter how many people you were hitting.
Also, you'd have to hit him in a way that gives you sneak attack (flanking, invisible, helpless, flatfooted....)

[Saintheart]

You can only study one target at a time for the death attack, so you'd only get one death attack at a time, no matter how many people you were hitting.
Also, you'd have to hit him in a way that gives you sneak attack (flanking, invisible, helpless, flatfooted....)

Not to mention that unless you have to study them for three full rounds and not lose your focus on the target -- most DMs would regard combat as a place you have to lose your focus on one person -- and the opponent cannot recognise you as a threat during all of that time, or else it's start all over again.

You could cast Deathsight (Complete Mage 102) which removes the three round study time. At a very, very long stretch and a DM looking at the spell description one-eyed it might apply to more than one target, since it applies to an "attack". But getting it requires you to waste about 8 levels in Assassin before you can cast it: fourth level, Assassin-only spell.

It also requires you have an INT of 14 at minimum, which is a bloody awful waste on a War Hulk due to "No Time To Think".

Probably it's viable to take a level dip in Assassin to open up the Assassin spell list and then just buy a Wand of Deathstrike. The Assassin level is probably non-negotiable because you can't UMD your way around the inability to cast; Use Magic Device is CHA-based, in which your ranks are 0.

And as already said: this whole line of thinking doesn't work if you can't be an Assassin. Disguise is a CHA-based skill, in which you have 0 ranks when you hulk up.

[123456789blaaa]

That's perfect, thank you!

So how is an assassins death attack not a special attack? Well, if the attack qualifies to kill 3 at a time, I love it!

It's not on the list so it's not a special attack.


You can only study one target at a time for the death attack, so you'd only get one death attack at a time, no matter how many people you were hitting.
Also, you'd have to hit him in a way that gives you sneak attack (flanking, invisible, helpless, flatfooted....)

Looking at the wording for the ability's again...yeah you're right.

And with that the whole build falls apart :smallsigh:. Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.


Not to mention that unless you have to study them for three full rounds and not lose your focus on the target -- most DMs would regard combat as a place you have to lose your focus on one person -- and the opponent cannot recognise you as a threat during all of that time, or else it's start all over again.

You could cast Deathsight (Complete Mage 102) which removes the three round study time. At a very, very long stretch and a DM looking at the spell description one-eyed it might apply to more than one target, since it applies to an "attack". But getting it requires you to waste about 8 levels in Assassin before you can cast it: fourth level, Assassin-only spell.

It also requires you have an INT of 14 at minimum, which is a bloody awful waste on a War Hulk due to "No Time To Think".

Probably it's viable to take a level dip in Assassin to open up the Assassin spell list and then just buy a Wand of Deathstrike. The Assassin level is probably non-negotiable because you can't UMD your way around the inability to cast; Use Magic Device is CHA-based, in which your ranks are 0.

And as already said: this whole line of thinking doesn't work if you can't be an Assassin. Disguise is a CHA-based skill, in which you have 0 ranks when you hulk up.

The plan was to use the Invisibility SLA to study them before combat started and then Death Attack them.

I'm...not sure why it would be a very very long stretch and require a DM being one-eyed to let the Deathsight thing pass :smallconfused:. Also note that it says "You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the actions and physiology of your foes." in the rules text for the spell. Regardless, it doesn't really matter as that wasn't the builds main methods of attack anyways.

I hadn't noticed the Disguise perquisite while thinking up the build. Depending on whether the "losing the prequisites for PRC's makes you lose the class features" applies to PRC's outside Cwar, you could just take the first level of assassin before War Hulk.

Anyways, I said before that I knew the build wasn't really working out. I came to this thread just to see if it could possibly be salvaged somehow. I now know that it can't.

[Immabozo]

I came to this thread just to see if it could possibly be salvaged somehow. I now know that it can't.

and it was amusing, thank you

[ILetGoOfTheRope]

You may also want to use psychic warrior. (No time to think technically only takes your skills away not your ability to manifest powers.) Play a half ogre with the alternate class ability for barbabarians to become a size larger when they rage. A few levels into psychic warrior with practiced manifester. And boom you are now colassal you can wield a chain whip for stacks against anyone within 75ft or just wield a regular weapon for anyone withing 25ft if you want to power attack. Throw in a level of frenzied berzeeker and you have an insane strength.

[Metahuman1]

A though crossed my mind.

If a character takes Item familiar, and invests skill ranks in the Item familiar to take skills, then takes levels in Warhulk, Do those invested ranks, since there now in the Item Familiar, remain useable to the character after taking the warhulk levels?


If so, I've found the perfect way to both keep ranks in Craft: Weapons Making to make Exotic Weapons Master 1/Warhulk X work, and to buy off a nice template or base race or two.

[Chronos]

Play a half ogre with the alternate class ability for barbabarians to become a size larger when they rage. A few levels into psychic warrior with practiced manifester. And boom you are now colassal
Problem: If you use Expansion first then Rage, then the Rage resets your size to large, despite being huge before you raged. And if you Rage first, then you can't use Expansion, since you can't do things requiring concentration (like manifesting powers) while raging.

[Immabozo]

A though crossed my mind.

If a character takes Item familiar, and invests skill ranks in the Item familiar to take skills, then takes levels in Warhulk, Do those invested ranks, since there now in the Item Familiar, remain useable to the character after taking the warhulk levels?

If so, I've found the perfect way to both keep ranks in Craft: Weapons Making to make Exotic Weapons Master 1/Warhulk X work, and to buy off a nice template or base race or two.

I am unfamiliar with item familiars. What book is it from?

[Zombulian]

I am unfamiliar with item familiars. What book is it from?

Unearthed Arcana and the SRD.

[Immabozo]

Unearthed Arcana and the SRD.

I'll check it out, thanks

[Metahuman1]

When you find out, let me know.

[Immabozo]

When you find out, let me know.

Will do!

Sorry guys, new girlfriend is taking up all my free time.

[Zombulian]

Will do!

Sorry guys, new girlfriend is taking up all my free time.

Maaaaah booooooy Bozo :smallbiggrin:

[Saintheart]

Will do!

Sorry guys, new girlfriend is taking up all my free time.

That's not all she's taking *b-boom tss* :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Zombulian]

I'll probably just add fratboy noises to every post now until you regret telling us that.

Awwwwww yeeeeeuaahhh mah boooooi

[Saintheart]

INDACLUB

(just goin' with the flow... :D )

[Immabozo]

Haha, you guys are ridiculous.

haha

[Medic!]

A though crossed my mind.

If a character takes Item familiar, and invests skill ranks in the Item familiar to take skills, then takes levels in Warhulk, Do those invested ranks, since there now in the Item Familiar, remain useable to the character after taking the warhulk levels?


If so, I've found the perfect way to both keep ranks in Craft: Weapons Making to make Exotic Weapons Master 1/Warhulk X work, and to buy off a nice template or base race or two.

As I recall, the bonus to skills from Item Familiar is a bonus up to your total ranks in the individual skill. If your skill is treated as having 0 ranks, your bonus becomes 0 as well.

[Immabozo]

I rally need to finish this thing! Ill try to start setting time aside to finish it, again

[JonU]

From my interpretation of No Time To Think, I don't see why you couldn't have skills in x skill to qualify for a class. It would essentially be wasted though since it would be counted as having zero ranks when rolled for. Again that is just how I would interpret it.

[Immabozo]

From my interpretation of No Time To Think, I don't see why you couldn't have skills in x skill to qualify for a class. It would essentially be wasted though since it would be counted as having zero ranks when rolled for. Again that is just how I would interpret it.

I can see that interpretation. I guess it all depends on your DM's interpretation. But then again, War Hulk has 2+int skills with only 3 or 4 class skills, so it's a bit rough!

[Segev]

Given the builds that grant you power to become Large that are treated as acceptable (I'm mostly looking at the Barbarian substitutions that let you grow while raging), I fail to see how Enlarge Person fails.

The rule about losing access to PrC features of PrCs for which you lose qualifications would apply, of course, but that actually makes things even more interesting in a way: when you are Large, you have the massive strength boosts and the like; when you reduce to your natural medium (or smaller) size, you lose the "class feature" known as "No Time to Think," and are not treated as having 0 ranks in mental-based skills.

I would certainly understand the DM requiring your War Hulk to have regular access to Enlarge Person to be able to justify training up for it, but that's mostly RP fluff unless you want to be able to do it to yourself (which is recommended, though having a friendly party buff-caster to do it is probably fine; party synergy is often undervalued in optimization discussions).

I've been toying with ways to make the dvati some viable/optimized builds, and most of it had centered around treating them as valid for MultiWeapon Fighting (otherwise, using the most restrictive rulings I can find, including the rather painful one about sharing only one set of actions per round between both bodies). The reason for that restrictive ruling is so that, if a DM rules differently, it can only increase the effectiveness of the character.

Anyway, War Hulk has some VERY interesting options. Mighty Swing starts off by saying it is a standard action, but then mentions "or make multiple Mighty Swings if he has multiple attacks." Which really means it's not a "Standard Action," but an attack action. The most restrictive reading that doesn't contradict otherwise says it acts like an attack action, allowing it to be used in place of a full attack with iteratives, if the character doesn't take a move action as well. In short, while we might be able to make some hay about it with the standard "but it doesn't say it's SPECIFICALLY this, so it might..." tricks, for most purposes, it's easiest to think of it as being an attack action.

Why is this interesting for the dvati War Hulk? Well, it's not, by itself. Still only one of the two can make any one of the attacks.

But take a look at Massive Swing. It "works like Mighty Swing, except" that the War Hulk literally attacks every space he threatens. NOW we're really getting nasty: the dvati threatens every square either body threatens.

Now, each body threatens twice as many squares as either does alone. The dvati using Massive Swing now makes his full attack against everything either body threatens. Arguably, he attacks those he double-threatens twice, though if we go with the most restrictive possible ruling, those are "only" most likely flanked by the twins.

If the DM was already giving the dvati bodies a full set of non-"spellcasting-like" actions (and we don't even need to get into whether power manifestation and SLAs and Su abilities are similarly restricted)...well, the dvati was already getting two full attacks per round; this "merely" increases his danger as much relative to what he was before as much as it increases any war hulk.

But either way, level 10 War Hulk suddenly takes massive advantage of the Dvati's dual bodies.

[Immabozo]

wow, I have never heard of Dvati, level 10 of war hulk is insane with that! I think you just rekindled my interest in this handbook!

If I add that, you'll get serious credit!

[Metahuman1]

Hmm, that would mean that since your not typically making crafting checks in battle, your benefits from exotic weapons master stay in place and synergize!

[Immabozo]

I know there is a belt in the MIC that can "enlarge person" the wearer 3/day

[Endarire]

Martial Adepts (mostly Warblades and Crusaders) also seem like logical entries. For example, a Barbarian/Crusader can work.

Perhaps also combo War Hulk with Bloodstorm Blade for massive chucking damage via iterative attacks at range!

[Segev]

wow, I have never heard of Dvati, level 10 of war hulk is insane with that!They are printed in the Dragon Compendium; it's a 3rd party book (by Paizo, I believe, actually) that compiles some 3.0 Dragon Magazine stuff and updates it for 3.5.

I warn you: the race is not the best-written, and its rules are confusing to incomplete in some places. The "they only get one set of actions between both bodies" rule is something the guy who edited it for 3.5 said is "supposed" to be how you read it, but it is most definitely NOT what the RAW actually say. As I stated, I ran with it because, as the MOST restrictive ruling, a DM who goes with a more relaxed version will actually make the build stronger.

All that said, I really do think the concept behind them is cool. One mind, two bodies.


I think you just rekindled my interest in this handbook!

If I add that, you'll get serious credit!My pleasure! I'm glad when my ideas amuse. ^_^

[Immabozo]

They are printed in the Dragon Compendium; it's a 3rd party book (by Paizo, I believe, actually) that compiles some 3.0 Dragon Magazine stuff and updates it for 3.5.

I warn you: the race is not the best-written, and its rules are confusing to incomplete in some places. The "they only get one set of actions between both bodies" rule is something the guy who edited it for 3.5 said is "supposed" to be how you read it, but it is most definitely NOT what the RAW actually say. As I stated, I ran with it because, as the MOST restrictive ruling, a DM who goes with a more relaxed version will actually make the build stronger.

All that said, I really do think the concept behind them is cool. One mind, two bodies.

My pleasure! I'm glad when my ideas amuse. ^_^

No need to tell me anything from the dragon mags is not exactly balanced. But sometimes its fun and sometimes allowed. I love the idea too!

[Zombulian]

No need to tell me anything from the dragon mags is not exactly balanced. But sometimes its fun and sometimes allowed. I love the idea too!

Just imagine. The War Hulk twins with their gigantic spiked chains and how Massive Swing looks in the game. I'm gonna go ahead and put forward the idea that each one holds one end of the chain and swings the other around him, and vice-versa.

[Immabozo]

Just imagine. The War Hulk twins with their gigantic spiked chains and how Massive Swing looks in the game. I'm gonna go ahead and put forward the idea that each one holds one end of the chain and swings the other around him, and vice-versa.

A 20' reach, from two different spots... wow, I think that's just better than 40' reach.

[Metahuman1]

So I had a though. What if we gave a Warhulk Spirited charge, a one level dip into exotic weapons master, a Heavy Lance to qualify, with a Valorous Lance and a hugh mount?

[Segev]

I sadly discovered the clause that says magical enlarge effects can't stack, that is present in every individual Enlarge, Righteous Might, and Expansion spell. :(

Which isn't game-ending, but it does mean "colossal" is out of reach of the Dvati without some shenanigans I have yet to discover.

[Metahuman1]

Wu Gen Spell Giant Sized?

[Immabozo]

I sadly discovered the clause that says magical enlarge effects can't stack, that is present in every individual Enlarge, Righteous Might, and Expansion spell. :(

Which isn't game-ending, but it does mean "colossal" is out of reach of the Dvati without some shenanigans I have yet to discover.

I do believe a +2 size category spell exists. Although, that's only to huge, for the Dvati. I am sure you could wish for a size category or two!

[Segev]

Well, Expansion - the PsyWarrior power - can be Augmented to get to +2 sizes. Sadly, with the exception of Reach, Righteous Might is better, because the latter gives +4 str with no Dex penalty, and only one size category's penalties to hit and AC. Expansion gives +4 Str when you grow two sizes, but also gives -4 Dex and 2 size categories' penalties.

Unfortunately, I would expect most DMs to rule that Wishing for a size category or two was Wishing for a lower-level spell. Perhaps Righteous Might or Giant Size. Which means, again, no stacking.

Although... I believe Mountain Trolls are Huge and 15 HD, putting them in reach of something in the Polymorph tree? Add your choice of Expansion or Righteous Might to that...

[Immabozo]

Well, Expansion - the PsyWarrior power - can be Augmented to get to +2 sizes. Sadly, with the exception of Reach, Righteous Might is better, because the latter gives +4 str with no Dex penalty, and only one size category's penalties to hit and AC. Expansion gives +4 Str when you grow two sizes, but also gives -4 Dex and 2 size categories' penalties.

Unfortunately, I would expect most DMs to rule that Wishing for a size category or two was Wishing for a lower-level spell. Perhaps Righteous Might or Giant Size. Which means, again, no stacking.

Although... I believe Mountain Trolls are Huge and 15 HD, putting them in reach of something in the Polymorph tree? Add your choice of Expansion or Righteous Might to that...

PAO into a mountain troll, on both "twins" would be horribly awesome!

[Tvtyrant]

I do believe a +2 size category spell exists. Although, that's only to huge, for the Dvati. I am sure you could wish for a size category or two!

Giant's Size spell off of the Wu-Jen list. Level 7 spell.

[Immabozo]

Giant's Size spell off of the Wu-Jen list. Level 7 spell.

Thank you!

[Metahuman1]

I like how I suggested that at the bottom of the previous page and it was mostly ignored, then someone else comes along and suggests it and it's jumped on. :smallbiggrin:

[Immabozo]

I like how I suggested that at the bottom of the previous page and it was mostly ignored, then someone else comes along and suggests it and it's jumped on. :smallbiggrin:

lol, I didn't recognize the spell name at all, only the description of it. So sue me, long week.

[Segev]

Hazard of posting on the bottom of a page; often, people wind up clicking on the current-last page, and thus the very last post on the prior one gets missed.

[Immabozo]

Hazard of posting on the bottom of a page; often, people wind up clicking on the current-last page, and thus the very last post on the prior one gets missed.

I usually click the "view first unread" button inside the thread.

[Segev]

Same here. It's mostly an issue for me when I'm on a board that doesn't have that option.

[Segev]

So, looked up Giant Size.

Wu Jen 7 is an "ouch" by itself, since it's Personal and has a minute (flat) duration.

It also sets your size, by the way the rules are written. So not useful for "+2" size. It's set size is based on your CL. Colossal requires CL 19.

Still, if it could somehow be worked by hook or crook into a War Hulk build, it would be Colossal size for anything that wanted it. (Gargantuan is around CL 15, if that's sufficient for you, and Huge is its base effect as soon as you can cast it, which is 13th level of Wu Jen most directly.) Anybody got ideas for cheese to get this onto something other than a full Wu Jen build?

[Metahuman1]

Custom Item that does the spell at CLm 19 once a day and can be used with a metamagic rod, then a lesser metamagic rod of persist spell. Maybe have some curses on them for like -30 to like concentration or knowledge skills or sneaky skills or some such and restricted them by race/alignment/and class to people with warhulk levels?

[Segev]

Base price of a command-word use item of 19th CL Giant Size is 239,400 gp. Reduced to 1/day is 47,889. Sadly, that's still just going to last 1 minute.

I honestly don't know how much an increase should be put on there for "ability to use metamagic rods with it," and I don't know if metamagic:persist rods are even legal. It'd have to be a Greater Metamagic rod to affect it.

A continuous item of 19th CL Giant Size would be: 1,064,000 gp, because its duration of 1 minute is less than 1 min./level, putting it at the "measured in rounds" multiplier of x4.


Thought of the Spellthief, but to steal a 7th level spell would require 14 levels of Spellthief. Still, at least then, a willing Wu Jen party member could donate the 19 CL Giant Size (assuming his CL was 19). Only leaves room for 6 War Hulk levels, though.


And Wu Jen don't get Magic Jar, so no swapping bodies and then casting it. Though...a party Telepath might be able to facilitate... Hrm.

[Immabozo]

So, looked up Giant Size.

Wu Jen 7 is an "ouch" by itself, since it's Personal and has a minute (flat) duration.

It also sets your size, by the way the rules are written. So not useful for "+2" size. It's set size is based on your CL. Colossal requires CL 19.

Still, if it could somehow be worked by hook or crook into a War Hulk build, it would be Colossal size for anything that wanted it. (Gargantuan is around CL 15, if that's sufficient for you, and Huge is its base effect as soon as you can cast it, which is 13th level of Wu Jen most directly.) Anybody got ideas for cheese to get this onto something other than a full Wu Jen build?

couldn't you get the ocular ray, or whatever the MM feats if for a 30 foot range?

[Segev]

Sadly, no. "Only ray spells and spells with a target other than 'personal' can be cast as ocular spells."

Giant Size is "Personal."

[Immabozo]

ah, thank you. I am completely unfamiliar with magic related optimization. I more like the mundanes and have gotten pretty good at optimizing them

[Tvtyrant]

You can share spells with familiars, does that mean they can share them with you? Because if so you could have an imp familiar UMD a staff of Giant Size to get you up to colossal. Expensive and feat intensive, but +32 strength on top of your +20 from Warhulk nets you a lot of strength. Assuming 18 base, +4 from Water Orc, +20 Warhulk and +32 Giant Size you have a strength score of 74.

[Immabozo]

You can share spells with familiars, does that mean they can share them with you? Because if so you could have an imp familiar UMD a staff of Giant Size to get you up to colossal. Expensive and feat intensive, but +32 strength on top of your +20 from Warhulk nets you a lot of strength. Assuming 18 base, +4 from Water Orc, +20 Warhulk and +32 Giant Size you have a strength score of 74.

that is a good question... I would think so. Do familiars get UMD though?

[Segev]

A staff of just Giant Size is 19*7*750 = 99,750 gp...and that's 50 charges.

That's 1,995 gp per casting. That sounds like a lot to me, even at level 20.

That said, if you play something with a solid UMD score and are not Large (or larger) in your "native" state, you lose your War Hulk class features - including "No Time To Think" - when you are Medium or smaller.

That would make this staff your transformation object. UMD it to cast Giant Size at CL19 on yourself, and become Colossal. Gain all your War Hulk class features, and for 1 minute be an utter terror on the battlefield.

I'm still angling to make a Dvati do this as effectively as possible, since War Hulk 10 gives Massive Swing and, by any reading of the rules, means that both twins now get to hit everything they threaten with their colossal spiked chains. 30 ft. space, 60 ft. reach, 2 bodies. I don't think the reach rules change at larger-than-Large, so they're still squares (rather than rounded squares treating diagonals differently). If so, that's a square 30 squares on a side with a 6 square center occupied by the colossal guy. 864 threatened squares per body, and the Dvati has two bodies! And heaven help anything in the squares both bodies threaten, as the flanking bonus just makes them even easier prey.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah it's expensive, but that's why you put limiters on it.

-30% for restricting it to what ever race your character is.

-30% again for restricting it to what ever alignment your character is.

-30% a third time for restricting it to someone with levels in at least one of your pre-warhulk classes.

-10% if you make it so you've got to roll UMD to use it. UMD should be easy enough to pump to make it trivial to do this when you wanna go big to do the warhulk stuff even as a cross class skill. Particularly if some helpful party members will do stuff like a spell or aid another actions to help you check at the start of the day.

And you can cut it as much as half if the item has a curse on it, depending on the curse. Make it a quest you have to do to activate it, or a bunch of penalty's to a skill set you won't be using while your hulked out, and your character no longer looses effectiveness at what your doing, killing suff, in order to use the item.

That's a significant price drop.



And if were REALLY optimizing Str here, in addition to that CL 19 Giant Size effect for the day and playing a Water Orc with an 18 base strength, we of course are also gonna have a way to have all day divine power for the +6 Str, use the usual tomes and wishes for +10 on top of that, then the +20 form Warhulk, a usual belt of giant strength for a +6, And a level of Barbarian for an extra +4 form rage or what ever AFC you fancy.And now were gonna tack on 4 construct graphs, one per limb, form MM II. Gonna use the Iron Golem ones and put a protective Coating of Riverine over them so rust monsters can't destroy them, and were gonna get a short term set of massive boosts to Concentration along with at least one rank and that diamond mind maneuver, either form martial scrips, a dip in swordsage or warblade, or the learn martial maneuver feat, that let's you swap a concentration check for a will save, to avoid the nasty prerequisites. And that's an extra +48.

So, recap.

Base: 18
Racial: +4
Barbarain: +4
Warhulk: +20
Divine Power: +6
Worn Item: +6
Book: +5
Wishes: +5
Giant Size Spell: +32
Graphs: +48
Level bonuses: +4

18 + 4 = 22 + 4 = 26 + 20 = 46 + 6 = 52 + 6 = 58 + 5 = 63 + 5 = 68 + 32 = 100 + 48 =148 + 4 =152 for a final total, with a modifier of +69. +104 when swinging 2 handed. +138 when swinging two handed with a level of exotic weapons master with the right exotic weapons trick and an exotic weapon your two handing.

That's pretty massive.

[Segev]

Less by 5, at least: books don't stack with wishes.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah it's expensive, but that's why you put limiters on it.

-30% for restricting it to what ever race your character is.

-30% again for restricting it to what ever alignment your character is.

-30% a third time for restricting it to someone with levels in at least one of your pre-warhulk classes.

-10% if you make it so you've got to roll UMD to use it. UMD should be easy enough to pump to make it trivial to do this when you wanna go big to do the warhulk stuff even as a cross class skill. Particularly if some helpful party members will do stuff like a spell or aid another actions to help you check at the start of the day.

And you can cut it as much as half if the item has a curse on it, depending on the curse. Make it a quest you have to do to activate it, or a bunch of penalty's to a skill set you won't be using while your hulked out, and your character no longer looses effectiveness at what your doing, killing suff, in order to use the item.

That's a significant price drop.



And if were REALLY optimizing Str here, in addition to that CL 19 Giant Size effect for the day and playing a Water Orc with an 18 base strength, we of course are also gonna have a way to have all day divine power for the +6 Str, use the usual tomes and wishes for +10 on top of that, then the +20 form Warhulk, a usual belt of giant strength for a +6, And a level of Barbarian for an extra +4 form rage or what ever AFC you fancy.And now were gonna tack on 4 construct graphs, one per limb, form MM II. Gonna use the Iron Golem ones and put a protective Coating of Riverine over them so rust monsters can't destroy them, and were gonna get a short term set of massive boosts to Concentration along with at least one rank and that diamond mind maneuver, either form martial scrips, a dip in swordsage or warblade, or the learn martial maneuver feat, that let's you swap a concentration check for a will save, to avoid the nasty prerequisites. And that's an extra +48.

So, recap.

Base: 18
Racial: +4
Barbarain: +4
Warhulk: +20
Divine Power: +6
Worn Item: +6
Book: +5
Wishes: +5
Giant Size Spell: +32
Graphs: +48
Level bonuses: +4

18 + 4 = 22 + 4 = 26 + 20 = 46 + 6 = 52 + 6 = 58 + 5 = 63 + 5 = 68 + 32 = 100 + 48 =148 + 4 =152 for a final total, with a modifier of +69. +104 when swinging 2 handed. +138 when swinging two handed with a level of exotic weapons master with the right exotic weapons trick and an exotic weapon your two handing.

That's pretty massive.
You could also get it for the price of one feat and a little cash. Leadership+Artificer Cohort who makes it for you for a pittance.

[Segev]

I've never really studied artificers. What is the "pittance" they would need? They still have to expend exp, but I believe that's covered under cohort rules. How much under half price can they go to make items? What level do they need to be to make the items CL 19?

[Immabozo]

Less by 5, at least: books don't stack with wishes.

But, as long as we are min/maxing, a level of bear warrior turns the babarians rage from 4 to 8 (the class does not say the bonuses are tied to the bear form, you get the bonuses you may shapechange), which qualifies us for war shaper 4 gives us +4 str, a level of frenzied berzerker (although not a good call) in +8 str.

So with you -5 and my +14, we still net +9

[Saintheart]

But, as long as we are min/maxing, a level of bear warrior turns the babarians rage from 4 to 8 (the class does not say the bonuses are tied to the bear form, you get the bonuses you may shapechange), which qualifies us for war shaper 4 gives us +4 str, a level of frenzied berzerker (although not a good call) in +8 str.

So with you -5 and my +14, we still net +9

There's also that Divine Power and "worn item" probably won't stack, since the worn item will likely be by way of an enhancement bonus, and Divine Power also grants an enhancement bonus. So that's another -6 there.

[Metahuman1]

There's also that Divine Power and "worn item" probably won't stack, since the worn item will likely be by way of an enhancement bonus, and Divine Power also grants an enhancement bonus. So that's another -6 there.

I though that was one of the broken things about persisting Divine power, is that the +6 would stack with Belt of Giants Strength or Bulls Strength spell.

[Segev]

Nope. Persistant Divine Power is equivalent to the best belt of giant's strength (pre-epic, anyway), however. So if you can do it and are doing it for the BAB anyway, you can save on the magic item.

Looking at the RAW on Bear Warrior very closely, it says there is no limit to the number of times per day that a Bear Warrior can turn into a bear, except for how often he can rage. It says that he changes into a bear every time he rages.

There is the seemingly-conflicting bit afterwards about the number of times per day he can turn into a bear, but if you look at it closely, it doesn't say that this is a limit on how often he can do it while raging. It says he can turn into a bear that many times. Somebody who can eat one cookie is not incapable of eating two, so if I told you that my brother can eat one cookie after I told you he is able to eat unlimited cookies as long as they're chocolate, the two statements aren't contradictory. It just means he definitely can eat one cookie of any type, and if he eats chocolate cookies, he can eat as many as he likes.

The Bear Warrior, therefore, can turn into a bear each time he rages, and can turn into a bear the number of times per day listed without having to rage to do so.

Okay, admittedly, I suspect the RAI were that one of those clauses not be included, but the RAW can be read without contradiction to say what I've outlined.

One question I would like the forums to check the strict RAW on for me. Look at the spell "Giant Size" (Wu Jen 7, pp. 109-110 CArc). Pretend for a moment that a Colossal Great Wyrm Gold Dragon has 13 levels of Wu Jen and casts this spell (at 13th CL). What happens to his size, and more importantly, his stats?

[Immabozo]

I'll have to wait until I get home, to my books, but I am fairly sure I was correct about bear warrior. But I agree on the conflict, it was erattaed to be only when you rage and as many times per day as you have rage, lasting as long as your rage.

[Segev]

Ah, well, if errata removed the extraneous/extra/conflicting clause, that settles that.

Which means that yeah, Raging now makes you a BEAR every time you do it.

[Immabozo]

Ah, well, if errata removed the extraneous/extra/conflicting clause, that settles that.

Which means that yeah, Raging now makes you a BEAR every time you do it.

Truth. However, I must both agree and disagree at the same time about your strict RAW reading of bear warrior. While I can see your point about only getting them while shapeshifted, as the RAI undoubtedly were, the location of grammatical marks is as important as the wording. There is a period between the lines about shifting and getting the bonuses. The line about the bonuses is simply "While raging, a bear warrior maintains the +2 will, -2 AC but gains..."

The total and unashamed abuse of that period allows it. The editor needs to take a class in when to use semicolons, which I don't think I've ever seen in D&D writing. Otherwise, re-wording.

So, yes, the words are all right, thus I agree with you, unfortunately, the punctuation is all wrong, thus I disagree with you.

[Segev]

Actually, the period doesn't mean it's utterly unrelated as a clause. It clearly follows the statement about turning into a bear when raging, and there's no need to spell out what is the same and different about a rage if there is no bear-shifting when raging.

But it's really not a big enough deal for me to press on; I'm more interested in my question about what happens when a naturally colossal creature casts Giant Size with a CL of less than 15. The spell says it makes you increase to the size indicated by the table (which says "Huge" for this CL), and that you gain the stat adjustments given.

Does "increase" operate to make it so that, since you cannot "increase" to Huge from Colossal, you remain Colossal? Does it set your size to Large due to the table, despite that being a "decrease," technically? In either case, does the "you gain these benefits" listing mean you still get the strength bonus, the dex penalty, and the size penalties to AC and to-hit?

If the second question is the right way to handle it per RAW, does it mean you shrink and get STRONGER, LESS DEXTEROUS, and EASIER TO HIT?

[Immabozo]

Actually, the period doesn't mean it's utterly unrelated as a clause. It clearly follows the statement about turning into a bear when raging, and there's no need to spell out what is the same and different about a rage if there is no bear-shifting when raging.

But it's really not a big enough deal for me to press on; I'm more interested in my question about what happens when a naturally colossal creature casts Giant Size with a CL of less than 15. The spell says it makes you increase to the size indicated by the table (which says "Huge" for this CL), and that you gain the stat adjustments given.

Does "increase" operate to make it so that, since you cannot "increase" to Huge from Colossal, you remain Colossal? Does it set your size to Large due to the table, despite that being a "decrease," technically? In either case, does the "you gain these benefits" listing mean you still get the strength bonus, the dex penalty, and the size penalties to AC and to-hit?

If the second question is the right way to handle it per RAW, does it mean you shrink and get STRONGER, LESS DEXTEROUS, and EASIER TO HIT?

No, my friend, that is the function of a semicolon. A period ends one thought and begins another, although being in the same paragraph means they are related).

But you're right, its a silly and unimportant point.

If you look in the ELH they have one of the two dragons, at Great Wyrm age listed as "C++" and the other "C+" I believe. You can get bigger, but the rules for bigger aren't really laid out, you gotta kinda find them. In the MM there is a table for gaining size categories (although stronger than the PC's progression) that I am sure could help to at least project the numbers.

If the MM table is twice as strong (ish) as the PC progression, that makes it rather easy. But I dont know if they work quite like that.

[Metahuman1]

There's also that Divine Power and "worn item" probably won't stack, since the worn item will likely be by way of an enhancement bonus, and Divine Power also grants an enhancement bonus. So that's another -6 there.


I've never really studied artificers. What is the "pittance" they would need? They still have to expend exp, but I believe that's covered under cohort rules. How much under half price can they go to make items? What level do they need to be to make the items CL 19?

Artificers have a class feature, they can take Items that are useless and destroy them for extra experience points, on the condition these points be used to craft things.

They also get a special pool of XP that recharges every level to craft with.

Ok, half cost, then you can do ALL the stuff I suggested earlier to get the cost down, Plus there's a feat that takes an extra 10% off. The reductions add up FAST to the point that it's next to nothing.

As for CL boosters, I think 17th lvl if everything is done as intended, but I'm cure there's a trick to get around that.

[Segev]

Oh, I know that there exist Colossal+ and ++. My question is, am I right in reading the RAW of Giant Size to say that you would become Huge (not grow two size categories; become Huge) and gain the explicitly listed bonuses and penalties in the process...even if Huge is the same size or smaller than you currently are?

[Immabozo]

Oh, I know that there exist Colossal+ and ++. My question is, am I right in reading the RAW of Giant Size to say that you would become Huge (not grow two size categories; become Huge) and gain the explicitly listed bonuses and penalties in the process...even if Huge is the same size or smaller than you currently are?

Probably not, that seems like huge game balance issues (fine to huge or colossal to huge) but I'll check it out when I get home

[Segev]

I do appreciate you checking it out.

Whether it's a game balance issue or not, it could still be the RAW. Technically, Pun-Pun is legal via the RAW.

That said, I'm not quite sure this would be one. If you modify stats as the chart says, you still get easier to hit and have a harder time hitting your foes, as if you'd gotten larger by 2, 3, or 4 size categories. But you by the rules are set to Huge, Gargantuan, or Colossal (I think; that's why I'm asking for a double-check), which also sets your reach.

Since losing Reach is a downside, in general, setting your size to Huge while treating you as having grown two sizes is weird, but not exactly breaking the game directly. What might be game-breaking is applying the massive size buffs to an already enormous critter, but that's another story.


In the end, I do think it funny that, at most, the writer of Giant Size seems to have thought that the only people who'd be casting it were Medium, or maybe Small (and, in the latter case, they INTENDED that Small creatures also get equally big to Medium ones under the spell...and only get stronger by the same amount, despite their generally weaker initial Strengths).

[Immabozo]

I do appreciate you checking it out.

Whether it's a game balance issue or not, it could still be the RAW. Technically, Pun-Pun is legal via the RAW.

This is very true. It is totally possible that they did. I imagine it was, at least intended to be) just an example. But I should be home this evening and I'll take another look (or, well, one in the first place, haha)

[Saintheart]

Logging here that if a War Hulk manages to pick up a cohort who's a Cleric/Runecaster, or indeed if there's a Runecaster in his party, his power can get stupid broken in melee terms. Put it this way, after producing the Runecaster handbook, I'm pretty confident I can give your War Hulk all the benefits of Divine Power, Enlarge Person, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Haste for less than a 20,000 gold and about 180 XP outlay to the Runecaster, all spells persisted, available once per day every day at literally a single touch. The Runecaster Handbook has an "item build" that shows how it's done.

[Immabozo]

Logging here that if a War Hulk manages to pick up a cohort who's a Cleric/Runecaster, or indeed if there's a Runecaster in his party, his power can get stupid broken in melee terms. Put it this way, after producing the Runecaster handbook, I'm pretty confident I can give your War Hulk all the benefits of Divine Power, Enlarge Person, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Haste for less than a 20,000 gold and about 180 XP outlay to the Runecaster, all spells persisted, available once per day every day at literally a single touch. The Runecaster Handbook has an "item build" that shows how it's done.

wow, thats intense! Sounds like these kids play nicely! I've never heard of a runecaster, what book is it? and can you link the handbook?

[Saintheart]

wow, thats intense! Sounds like these kids play nicely! I've never heard of a runecaster, what book is it? and can you link the handbook?

Runecaster comes out of Players Guide to Faerun, with the Rune Magic they depend on coming out of Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

Link is right in my sig. :smallwink: :smallcool:

[Immabozo]

Runecaster comes out of Players Guide to Faerun, with the Rune Magic they depend on coming out of Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

Link is right in my sig. :smallwink: :smallcool:

Nice, I'll check it out, thanks