PDA

View Full Version : Soldier (Formerly Martial Ranger) [Base]



Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-24, 03:13 PM
Martial Ranger
Alignment: Any.
Vitality Die: d8.
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Bonus feat
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Endurance
4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|~
5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|Bonus feat
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|~
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Woodland stride
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|Bonus feat
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Evasion
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|~
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|Bonus feat
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|~
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Camouflage
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+4|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|~
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|~
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5|Bonus feat, hide in plain sight
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|~
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|~
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|Bonus feat[/table]Class Skills
The martial ranger's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidation (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (war) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Unlike the standard ranger, the martial ranger has no spellcasting ability. This description of martial ranger class abilities covers only those abilities that are not found in the ranger class description. The martial ranger's special abilities function only when he is wearing light or no armor.
Bonus Feat: At 1st and 2nd level, and every third level thereafter, the martial ranger gains the Track feat or a feat from the fighter bonus feat list. Note that the martial ranger must still meet all prerequisites for the feats he selects.

Rainspattered
2006-11-24, 03:18 PM
This is a ranger I would actually play, and I think the smaller HD keep it from just outright eclipsing the Fighter.

jlousivy
2006-11-24, 09:24 PM
is it a mis-print or do the martial rangers get a +12 on will saves when achieving lvl 20?

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-24, 09:27 PM
Definitely a misprint.

Edit - fixed.

Yakk
2006-11-24, 11:28 PM
Fighter vs M. Ranger

Fighter edge @ L 20
4 more feats
21 more HP on average (2 at L 1, 1 each other level)

M. Ranger edge at L 20:
Track feat (I assumed the ranger would take this)
Woodland stride
Swift Tracker
Evasion
Camouflage
Hide in plain sight
92 skill points and wider selection
+6 reflex safe

Fighter edge at L 1:
2 more HP

M. Ranger edge at L 1:
2 more reflex save
12 more skill points (and wider selection)
Option of taking Track feat

... What armor can the M. Ranger use? Not that it matters -- splashing a medium/heavy armor class for 1 or 2 levels (like fighter) solves that completely (no M. Ranger ability requires light armor).

Hmm. L 18 M. Ranger L 2 Fighter.

Costs you 8 skill points 1 reflex save.
Gives you +1 feat, +2 fort, +2 hp, Medium/Heavy armor proficiencies, Tower sheild prof.

So L 20 Fighter vs L 18/2 M. Ranger/Fighter

icke
2006-11-25, 12:15 PM
Yakk:
Ranger vs. Fighter at Lvl. 1 is the same as Martial Ranger vs. Fighter at Lvl. 1.

Concerning the armor, I would restrict the Martial Ranger to light armors and shields. Also, I would give them a special bonus feat selection and NO werapon specialization , that's the fighter's main kick after all.

Otherwise I think it's balanced quite well, like it:)

Yakk
2006-11-25, 01:22 PM
*nod*. Give the M. Ranger access to both combat styles of the normal ranger.

Toss in something distinctive... Hmm..

Wis Bonus times per scene, the M. Ranger gets to add his Dex bonus to the damage of a blow that hits. This ability can only be used at most once per round. (L 5 ability)

Once per day for every 2 levels of M. Ranger, the M. Ranger can add his Wis bonus to his to-hit roll.

L 15 ability: Superior offhand-weapon parry. The M. Ranger may add his Dex bonus as a shield bonus when weilding two weapons. This stacks with two-weapon defence.

That kind of thing, and strip out the Bonus Feats.

Fizban
2006-11-25, 05:30 PM
Looks fine to me though with the idea I would have done a bit different.
I'd do: Combat Style (Ex): At 2nd, 6th, and 11th level the ranger gains a bonus feat chosen from the fighter's bonus feat list. The ranger does not need to meet ability score prerequisites for these feats, and ranger levels count as fighter levels for meeting prerequisites at all levels.

Although now that I look at it, you got rid of favored enemy and replaced it with bonus feats as well. That works, but now it just seems like a fighter variant with some non-feat abilities and more skills.

I still prefer the Warcraft setting's Scout for a ranger class, but that's a whole nother setting.

Serakus_DeSardis
2006-11-25, 08:12 PM
Not to be a jerk but this reeks of munchkin design.

This basically looks like you merged the two classes.

I could be mistaken.

If so I apologize.

Logic
2006-11-26, 05:46 AM
I would like to go back to second edition rules on "Rangers", that rule being that rangers were good. ("Heart of a Ranger" was a description for good characters, not just trackers)
For a non-good version of the ranger, my group uses the title "Hunter" or "Woodsman" which usually does not have spells, but more martial characteristics. This class does not preclude good characters, but most good characters take ranger instead of my variant class.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-26, 06:48 PM
Yakk:
Ranger vs. Fighter at Lvl. 1 is the same as Martial Ranger vs. Fighter at Lvl. 1.

Concerning the armor, I would restrict the Martial Ranger to light armors and shields. Also, I would give them a special bonus feat selection and NO werapon specialization , that's the fighter's main kick after all.

Otherwise I think it's balanced quite well, like it:)

Martial rangers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, and shields, just like the standard ranger. I've taken out the line about Weapon Spec, but I'm keeping the fighter's list of bonus feats rather than making up a new one.

That said, if people think they should get fewer bonus feats, I'm open to suggestions.

Yakk
2006-11-26, 08:58 PM
Dispite the lack of medium/heavy armor feats...

No combat ability of this ranger requires or encourages light armor.

Triaxx
2006-11-26, 09:37 PM
Why not add some 'Styles of the Wild', that only function while wearing Light armor. For Example:

Wolf Strike:

A Martial Ranger has learned how to hamstring like a wolf, and may make a single attack attempt, at a -3 penalty, to hamstring his opponent, reducing the opponent's ground speed by 5' for the first, and immobilizing for the second. The second strike wears off in 1d4 rounds, but the first requires a DC 25 heal check.

Tiger Claw:

A Martial Ranger may attempt to deal a stunning blow, capable of rendering an opponent unconscious when striking empty handed, at a -4 penalty. Unconsciousness lasts 1d4 rounds, DC 18 reflex save to be nauseated for 2 rounds.

Fizban
2006-11-27, 12:05 AM
Not a bad idea, but in that case I'd suggest direct crossovers from animals. The wolf's trip ability, pounce, maybe hold breath, sprint if you like, improved grab, rend, heck I could see a rake-like ability. But this approaches more nature-warrior than wilderness fighter.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-27, 12:54 AM
Yeah, this class isn't "I'm a warrior who uses techniques inspired by animals to pwn you!" it's "I'm a fighter who can handle himself in the woods and not go crashing through the undergrowth like freaking Gojira".

Behold_the_Void
2006-11-27, 01:01 AM
Just give no access to Fighter-specific feats, that's the only thing the Fighter really has going for it.

Triaxx
2006-11-27, 08:34 AM
I was going for more of a 'I'm a ranger who's spent more time in the woods than in a city, but yes, I can still show you your heart while it's still beating' style of ranger.

Serakus_DeSardis
2006-11-27, 10:05 AM
This may be my humble opinion, and many may not agree with it, but I say again.

This smacks of munchkin play. The ranger is already very well defined and very well balanced, Favored enemy alone can make the ranger the damage center of some parties in alot of situations (that is if the ranger has chosen a decent enemy, not some obscure one that you never see), not to mention the obvious TWF uses, and the supplement of spells and an animal companion makes them all around well balanced.

If you don't want the spells then play a fighter. Or splash fighter after a few levels of ranger.

I just think rewriting the ranger to include the things that make the fighter different and more specialized is ridiculous. again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, its just a little excessive in my opinion.

Also what is the line about the ranger not needing to meet the requirements for fighter feats he selects? Or the recently removed line about specialization? Why does this martial ranger get special treatment in regards to feats?

In a game that is very kind to multi-classing, it is borderline offensive to undermine the balance and design of the core game by totally breaking that balance and design. This may sound harsh, but it is how I feel.

In my opinion if you want to have a fighter with some functionality in wild enviroments, then perhaps develop a few feats to allow that to happen. That way you are not breaking either class, and you are reaching the goal you seem to have. Its much more agreeable to simulate a class ability in a feat (tho in my opinion you should always make it a little less effective, balance again) than to chop and butcher two classes into one.

Thats my two copper, again no offense intended, as harsh as this post may seem, I mean well. I just feel that sometimes we all need to be reined in a bit.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-27, 10:48 AM
Well, first of all, the line that says MRs don't have to meet prereqs wa a typo - it's supposed to say "Note that...", not "Not that...".

And why are you still harping on the specialization thing? It's gone. Not there. People didn't like it, I took it away. Move on.

Serakus_DeSardis
2006-11-27, 11:18 AM
Its not just the specialization. Its the concept bud. I've seen alot of your work before, and its usually of very good quality. This just happens to be in my opinion a munchkin concept from the core of it. That may not have been your intent.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-27, 12:05 PM
Okay. Camouflage, wilderness movement, etc. are things that modern soldiers are trained in. In my world, there is a movement away from classic medieval tactics toward more modern ones, mostly as a result of the huge 15-year war that occured, and the much shorter (but equally intense) war that happened 10 years after that.

My problem with the "do it by multiclassing" argument is that, by the time you get to the ranger levels where the camouflage abilities and all that stuff is given to you, you've picked up stuff that doesn't fit the vision of "semi-modern soldier" - animal companion, divine spells, etc. This is my attempt to fix that and make it available to others.

Looking back, I see that the swift tracker ability really doesn't fit the vision either. Soldiers might be trained in tracking, but it's a specialty, not a blanket ability.

So, now that I've explained what I'm going for, let's try to make it fit better. And I'd be a lot more receptive to criticism if, instead of going, "MUNCHKIN! MUNCHKIN! EVIL BLARG!!!11!!one!", you pointed out specific features that you disliked.

Yakk
2006-11-27, 12:07 PM
Let's make the class less Fighter-ish and more ranger-ish.

As it stands, it really really looks like a Ranger/Fighter hybrid class.

Fighters get swarms of bonus feats. Rangers, well, they get ranger-ish combat abilities.

First, kill wild empathy and animal companion and spell casting from the Ranger list. Leave most of the rest. But, as a core flavour ability, let's replace Favoured Enemy with something better.

Track: At L 1, the Ranger gets track as a bonus feat.
At L 8, Swift tracker

Woods: At L 7, Woodland stride
At L 13, Camouflage
At L 17, Hide in plain sight

Combat Style: At Level 1, the M. Ranger picks his primary combat style (as a ranger).
At L 2, the M. Ranger gets the other combat style.

M. Rangers gain the further upgrades to the Primary combat style at the same level as Rangers.
M. Rangers gain the further upgrades to the Secondary combat style one level later the Primary combat style.

Slaying: A M. Ranger gets +1 damage to 1 handed melee weapons and bows at every even level.
(Effectively favored enemy in combat, but against everything. @ L 20, +10 damage -- same as Favoured enemy.)

This resulting class is a bit thin at higher levels. But Slaying really really adds up.

Slaying fails to work in heavier-than-light-armor, as do the free Combat Styles feats of the M. Ranger.

Some concerns: Wisdom isn't that useful. I wish there was a way to make wisdom more useful for the M. Ranger.
Give them innate Finess and the ability to replace Strength with Wisdom for damage purposes?

Other ranger-esque ideas:
Aim: As a full action, can aim and shoot a bow. This adds the character's Wisdom bonus to hit.
Accuracy: Dex bonus to damage for bows.
Well-Placed Blade: Dex bonus to melee damage on x2 crits. On x3 crits, twice Dex bonus. On 4x crits, three times Dex bonus.

Yakk
2006-11-27, 12:18 PM
Oh, more of a (Forest) Skirmirsher than a M. Ranger. This is a varient Fighter not a varient Ranger.

Kill all special ranger abilities -- we'll put them back in later. Keep d8 HP and the high Reflex save.

First, no access to Fighter-only feats.

Second, proficient in simple weapons, one-handed martial weapons, and bows.

Third, armor proficient in light armor and small shields.

This is a lightly-armed fighting class, not a bruiser.

Get's a bonus feat at L 1 and every 2 levels. These feats are chosen from the Fighter Bonus feat list, but not fighter-only feats.

Instead, at the following Skirmisher levels or above, you can purchase:
3rd: Endurance
7th: Woodland Stride
8th: Swift Tracker
9th: Evasion
13th: Camouflage
17th: Hide in Plain Sight

These abilities can be purchased with either bonus feats or with normal character feats.

These bonus feats only work while in light armor.

If that isn't strong enough, you can toss in something (flanking bonus's?) on odd levels.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-27, 12:23 PM
Let's make the class less Fighter-ish and more ranger-ish.

As it stands, it really really looks like a Ranger/Fighter hybrid class.

Fighters get swarms of bonus feats. Rangers, well, they get ranger-ish combat abilities.

First, kill wild empathy and animal companion and spell casting from the Ranger list. Leave most of the rest. But, as a core flavour ability, let's replace Favoured Enemy with something better.

Track: At L 1, the Ranger gets track as a bonus feat.
At L 8, Swift tracker

Woods: At L 7, Woodland stride
At L 13, Camouflage
At L 17, Hide in plain sight

Combat Style: At Level 1, the M. Ranger picks his primary combat style (as a ranger).
At L 2, the M. Ranger gets the other combat style.

M. Rangers gain the further upgrades to the Primary combat style at the same level as Rangers.
M. Rangers gain the further upgrades to the Secondary combat style one level later the Primary combat style.But combat styles also don't really fit the "soldier" vision. Soldiers have a variety of specialties and weapons training, so doing this limits their weapon choices, which is something I'm trying to avoid.


Slaying: A M. Ranger gets +1 damage to 1 handed melee weapons and bows at every even level.
(Effectively favored enemy in combat, but against everything. @ L 20, +10 damage -- same as Favoured enemy.)

I like this ability a little more. However, again, the weapons restrictions don't fit what I'm aiming for, and taking them out would make the ability much more powerful than the Weapon Spec tree that people said I should avoid. Thus, unfortunately, I'm not going to use this.


Some concerns: Wisdom isn't that useful. I wish there was a way to make wisdom more useful for the M. Ranger.
Give them innate Finess and the ability to replace Strength with Wisdom for damage purposes?Hmmm. I don't know. Add some Wis-based bonus feats to their list, perhaps?


Other ranger-esque ideas:
Aim: As a full action, can aim and shoot a bow. This adds the character's Wisdom bonus to hit.
Accuracy: Dex bonus to damage for bows.
Well-Placed Blade: Dex bonus to melee damage on x2 crits. On x3 crits, twice Dex bonus. On 4x crits, three times Dex bonus.Aim and Accuracy, I like. Not as class abilities, but as feats to go on their list. Well-Placed Blade doesn't do much for me, and I'll take away the specific mention of bows and make it apply to ranged weapons in general, or maybe a specific ranged weapon that they choose.


Oh, more of a (Forest) Skirmirsher than a M. Ranger. This is a varient Fighter not a varient Ranger.

Kill all special ranger abilities -- we'll put them back in later. Keep d8 HP and the high Reflex save.

First, no access to Fighter-only feats.

Second, proficient in simple weapons, one-handed martial weapons, and bows.

Third, armor proficient in light armor and small shields.

This is a lightly-armed fighting class, not a bruiser.

Get's a bonus feat at L 1 and every 2 levels. These feats are chosen from the Fighter Bonus feat list, but not fighter-only feats.

Instead, at the following Skirmisher levels or above, you can purchase:
3rd: Endurance
7th: Woodland Stride
8th: Swift Tracker
9th: Evasion
13th: Camouflage
17th: Hide in Plain Sight

These abilities can be purchased with either bonus feats or with normal character feats.

These bonus feats only work while in light armor.

If that isn't strong enough, you can toss in something (flanking bonus's?) on odd levels.

Hmm. I like the idea of making their abilities armor-restricted, but I might go with medium as the cut-off and add Armor Prof (medium) to their bonus feats.

Serakus_DeSardis
2006-11-27, 12:45 PM
Well here we hit a good discussion point. Unless I'm mistaken you didn't previously mention that this was a semi-modern concept. I can see what you are going for now.

That being said, I still think it would be better to supplement this concept with feats or class abilities mimicking the abilities you want. Perhaps using feats to substitute for the divine abilities or any other undesireable traits.

But I also think Yakk makes an excellent point that "This is a lightly-armed fighting class, not a bruiser. - Yakk". I'd agree with that. You want to be very careful that you balance these abilties you seek from the Ranger, and maintain the same kind of approach.



As for your vision of a "semi-modern" soldier, are we just referring to tactics?

I guess what I'm trying to determine by that question is is this more appropriate for d20 Modern? Or is this a traditional DnD setting with some tactics and mentality of a modern era? I've seen alot of material put out both professionally and homebrew that brings semi-modern tactics into play with traditional DnD play. A good example is alot of Elven material speaks of using guerilla tactics, using their smaller force size for its advantages such as concealability and mobility. Elves are actually a perfect example of what I'm trying to illustrate to you, they are fleet footed and graceful, and capable warriors. But they are not the brawler type, that wade into battle directly. In your original concept I saw alot of room for munchkin style exploitation. It wasn't your intent I can see that now, but I saw the opportunity.

I know I'm probably driving you crazy right now. For that I apologize. I hope this post makes some sense to what I'm trying to convey.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-27, 01:20 PM
I'm aiming for some of the tactics and the mentality/philosophy. My world is in transition from a high-magic kind of setting to a more low-magic, technology based one, thanks to the sealing away of a lot of magic. The "default" era setting assumes that the "sealing" has not yet occured, but that modern kinds of elements have begun to take hold.

Yakk
2006-11-27, 02:12 PM
The modern soldier happened because of semi-automatic firearms.

In the modern battlefield, if you can see your target, you can (and probably will) kill it. This wasn't true before the advent of repeating rifles.

In the ancient battlefield, the amount of damage each person could put into the air was much less.

War was more about concentrating power. You would pack your troops together in order to slaughter anyone who dared get within range. Low-density combat was silly, because a high-density formation would walk through it with minimal casualties.

If anything, D&D wars should look more like modern wars thanks to magic. Fireballs and lighting bolts and other area effect weapons make densely packed troops into sushi. Magic allows some semblance of modern communication speeds -- so a military force can afford to split itself up into sub-forces, and use magic to relay contact with the enemy.

To aviod being nuked to death, an army would have to travel in extremely loose order. Mixed squads of 6.

Large amounts of scouting and a large volume, designed to provide early warning of a magical assault on the army. Outer layer of expendable scouts (who report back regularly), next layer of heavier fighters, next layer of mixed melee and low level casters, and finally a diffuse core of higher level casters.

Mundane threats get picked up by the outermost shell, and defeated by the second shell.

Invisible threats get picked up by the 3rd layer, and taken out there or in the core.

In the event of battle, the game becomes "how do I bring the glass cannons to bear without being killed by enemy glass cannons".

...

Take a single L 10 wizard.
Cloudkill: 200 ft start range, 1200 ft end range, 10 minute duration.
Instant-kill every L 1 to 3 character in it.

Fireball: 800 ft range
10d6 damage to 40 foot diameter. Kills 50% of all L 3 warriors who make their reflex save, and basically 100% of them that don't.

A tightly packed group of troops (5 deep, one troop for every 5') 40' of frontage, killing about 40 troops, from each fireball.

A L 10 evoc spec wizard can pump out at least 11 fireballs, and a sorc 14. That's a minimium of 400 troops dead per L 10 wizard and 500 per sorc, if they dare pack themselves in close, and that's before the wizard finds better spells to cast or metamagic feats.

Of course, as powerful as that is, create food & water spells may be more powerful military wise. The hard part of moving massive armies is logistics -- with magic providing clean food and water, large armies would happen much sooner.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-27, 02:16 PM
I should add that firearms came into existence shortly before the start of the 15-year war and developed rapidly as the war went on. Firearms technology is at the about the revolvers and breech-loading rifle stage, with longarms with internal magazines in the prototype/extremely limited production stage.

Yakk
2006-11-27, 02:36 PM
Ah. Yes, that would do it. :)

I just find it interesting that people use medievil tactics in fantasy games. A single metropolis of 25,000 population can produce enough spellcasting to kill 10,000+ massed troops every single day.

How do you work firearms? d20 modern?

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-27, 02:49 PM
Actually, the most modern firearms (revolvers and breechloaders) are restricted to military usage, with flintlocks and some muzzle-loading longarms being available for general citizens.

For the older weapons, I use stats from an issue of Dragon - I can't remember which one. In addition to the article on guns, it had a celestial-based PrC, and that's basically all I remember.

For the more modern weapons, I basically look at weapons from d20 Modern and fudge the stats from there. "Okay, a revolver of this caliber usually does this damage at this range, and weighs about this much..."

Serakus_DeSardis
2006-11-27, 03:01 PM
It really is starting to sound like you should consider a d20 Modern switch. Once firearms enter the traditional DnD gameplay it starts to botch everything up. I'm a bit of a purist and I really hate the use of firearms in fantasy rpgs, but thats just me. But I can definetly say they are a bad idea, they offset the balance way too much.

Yakk
2006-11-27, 04:07 PM
Note that the problem with "medium armor or less" is that mithril makes full plate medium armor.

Ok, so how about:
BaB +1
Reflex good save, Fort/Will bad saves
d8 HD
5 skill points/level. Ranger list.

Proficient: Light armor, Shield, Martial, Simple.

All Skirmisher abilities, including bonus Skirmisher feats, only work in light armor or less.

L 1 ability:
Wariness. Add Wis to AC while in light armor or less. Wis+Dex bonus capped by armor max Dex bonus.

Bonus feat at L 1 and every even level.

Bonus Feat list:
Fighter feat list, plus Endurance and Track.
No fighter-only feats allowed.

In addition, can purchase the following abilities instead of feats:
L 1+ Aim (full round single attack, adds wisdom bonus to hit, ranged weapons)
L 2+ Evasion
L 4+ Uncanny Dodge
L 6+ Accuracy (dex bonus to ranged attack damage within PB range)
L 8+ Improved Uncanny Dodge
L 10+ Woodland Stride (requires Track)
L 12+ Swift Tracker (requires Track)
L 14+ Camouflage (requires Woodland Stride)
L 16+ Improved Evasion (Rogue ability)
L 18+ Hide in Plain Sight (requires Camouflage)
L 20+ Defensive Roll (Rogue ability)

This might still be a bit more powerful than a Fighter.

The lack of heavy armor is made up by Wariness, but it does have a lower HD.

The Ranger/Rogue/Skirmisher abilities added are probably a bit stronger than feats.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-27, 05:57 PM
It really is starting to sound like you should consider a d20 Modern switch. Once firearms enter the traditional DnD gameplay it starts to botch everything up. I'm a bit of a purist and I really hate the use of firearms in fantasy rpgs, but thats just me. But I can definetly say they are a bad idea, they offset the balance way too much.

Well, firearms are still uncommon outside of the military, because let's face it, magic is better than guns, but, by the same token, it's easier to train people to shoot than wield magic. But most magic gets blocked off 25 years after guns hit the scene, and that would be when what my campaign setting calls "the Modern Era" begins.

@ Yakk: Yes, mithral full plate is considered medium armor. I don't see this as a problem.
[hr]
Also, as for your addition of special abilities, I said before that I would be making Aim and Accuracy into feats. Swift tracking might be a worthwhile optional special ability, I'll consider how to add that. As for the rogue abilities, I'm going to have to say that I'm fine with multiclassing into rogue for those. The Martial Ranger is intended to be a combatant close to the fighter in capabilities, the main differences being the slower progression of bonus feats, the lower hit die, and the addition of wilderness movement abilities. For evasion, uncanny dodge, and the like, I'd advocate going into the rogue class.

Yakk
2006-11-27, 10:58 PM
It means M. Rangers can wear Mithril Full plate. In effect, Medium-armor only ceases to be much of a disadvantage at higher levels.

Light-only restricts you, at higher levels, to Medium mithril armor.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-28, 05:03 PM
Again, I don't see why this is a problem. And I should add that despite M. Rangers' class abilities being able to function in medium armor, I have not given M. Rangers automatic proficiency with medium armor. It is on their list of bonus feats, but they still have to spend one to gain proficiency.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-30, 12:49 PM
Aim [General]
You can aim your shots intuitively.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Dex 13+, Wis 15+.
Benefit: By taking a full-round action to make a single ranged attack, you can add your Wisdom modifier to your ranged attack roll, in addition to your Dexterity modifier.
Special: A fighter or martial ranger can select this feat as one of his bonus feats.

Accuracy [General]
The accuracy of your shots is uncanny.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dex 15+, BAB +8.
Benefit: When wielding a ranged weapon with which you are proficient, you may add your Dexterity modifier to damage.
Special: A fighter or martial ranger may select this feat as a one of his bonus feats.

Yakk
2006-11-30, 02:42 PM
Getting heavy/medium weapon proficiency as a melee class is next to free.

You only need to splash a single level of Paladin or Fighter. Splashing between melee classes, because the main benefits (BaB and HP) stacks, and characters get above-average benefits from their first level, is not expensive.

The only d20 SRD ability restricted to medium armor is the Barbarians movement. Because of the existance of mithril, restricting abilities to medium only is not a signficiant restriction.

As for the M. Ranger aiming at L 20 power, the cost for splashing Fighter is ... well, free. The M. Ranger gains nothing from pure M. Ranger levels, and the bonus feats from the Fighter make up for any bonus feats lost.

You might want to "back load" the M. Ranger with some abilities at higher levels, to make not-splashing at least somewhat tempting.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-11-30, 02:58 PM
Eh, good point. I'll make the abilities light-only. That's a good idea with the abilities, too. Any ideas?

Krursk
2006-12-03, 04:24 AM
Just a few questions regarding the Martial Ranger's skills: What is Knowledge (War)? Why doesn't he have Knowledge (Nature)?

Cirnech
2006-12-03, 07:46 AM
Knowledge (War) was a skill in 3.0 that was removed because it didn't give a synergy bonus to anything. The Martial Ranger probably should have Knowledge (Nature) and (War) and possibly (Dungeoneering), depending on just where Martial Rangers are supposed to go. Modern warfare expects thier soldiers to be knowledgable, and often hinge on that very precept. If you are using Knowledge (War), I suggest looking at Battle from the Rokugan Campaign setting and possibly adapting it to your uses (Knowledge (War) gives it a synergy bonus, making it appropriate for D&D again).

Concearning the class, you might want to instead make the class firearms based (you sound like it's pretty important). Replacing the normal weapon styles with Gun proficiencies (Level 2), focus (Level 6) and specialization (Level 11) (or even add this to the Ranger styles, call it "Firearms" or "Gunslinger").

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-03, 11:00 AM
Just a few questions regarding the Martial Ranger's skills: What is Knowledge (War)? Why doesn't he have Knowledge (Nature)?

Knowledge (war) is, as Cirnech said, a skill from 3.0 which I have adapted to my campaign setting, and the reason the Martial Ranger does not have Knowledge (nature) is because the class isn't a nature-oriented class. It's war-oriented.

As for the firearms thing, doesn't that help the balance of the class, by forcing them to burn one of their bonus feats on Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)?

Cirnech
2006-12-04, 02:16 AM
THEORETICALLY, any restriction hurts the class to some degree, but I'm simply throwing ideas out in hopes that one is good.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-05, 03:25 PM
Any ideas for some cool abilities to give at the later levels?

Miles Invictus
2006-12-05, 10:07 PM
You probably won't want to give the Ranger all of these, but some combination of them might make for decent high-level abilities.

Light Sleeper
Benefit: Whenever the Ranger is sleeping, he gains a bonus to all Listen checks equal to half his Ranger level (maximum +10).
Note: Sleeping characters have a -10 penalty to all Listen checks. This ability simply reduces the penalty until it is negated completely.

Natural Senses
Benefit: Whenever the Ranger is in a natural environment, he may make a Survival check in place of any Listen or Spot check.
Synergy: If the Ranger has five ranks of Listen or Spot, he gains a +2 bonus to the appropriate checks.

Natural Trapfinding
Benefit: Whenever the Ranger is in a natural environment, he may make a Survival check in place of a Search check in order to find traps.
Synergy: If the Ranger has five ranks of Search, he gains a +2 bonus to the appropriate checks.

Natural Evasion
Benefit: When in a natural environment, the Ranger gains the benefits of the Evasion feat when saving against mechanical traps. If the Ranger already has the Evasion feat, then he gets the benefits of Improved Evasion against natural traps.

Natural Trapper
Benefit: Whenever the Ranger attempts to make a mechanical trap in a natural environment, his Craft (trapmaking) check gains a bonus equal to half his Ranger levels. The Ranger is considered trained in trapmaking, with regards to natural environments.

Ranged Flanking
Benefit: When you have a ranged weapon equipped, you may threaten foes (for purposes of flanking only) from up to 30 feet away. In order to threaten an enemy in this way, you must have line of effect, and your foe must be aware of your presence.
Normal: You can only flank enemies with melee weapons.

Reflexive Attack
Benefit: You may use an immediate action to make a standard attack at your full base attack bonus. During your next combat round, you are limited to free actions, a single move action, or a full attack (with all attacks at -5 to hit). You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Reflexive Barrage
Benefit: Whenever you make a Reflexive Attack, you may make a full attack instead of a standard attack. On your next turn, you are limited to free actions and a five-foot-step.

Woodsman's Brawn
Benefit: Add 1/4th of your Ranger level to your Strength for the purpose of meeting feat and special ability requirements. You must wear light or no armor to gain this benefit.

Woodsman's Agility
Benefit: Add 1/4th of your Ranger level to your Dexterity for the purpose of meeting feat and special ability requirements. You must wear light or no armor to gain this benefit.

Woodsman's Prowess
Benefit: Add 1/4th of your Ranger level to determine your Base Attack Bonus for the purpose of meeting feat and special ability requirements. You must wear light or no armor to gain this benefit.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-05, 10:27 PM
Thank you, Miles... Hmmm... *pick, choose, select*

How about the MR gets special abilities at later levels, like the rogue does?

*inspiration*
[hr]
Martial Ranger
Alignment: Any.
Vitality Die: d8.
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Bonus feat
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Endurance
4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|~
5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|Bonus feat
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|~
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Special ability
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|Bonus feat
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|~
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Special ability
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|Bonus feat
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|~
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Special ability
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+4|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|~
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Special ability
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5|Bonus feat
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|~
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Special ability
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|Bonus feat[/table]Class Skills
The martial ranger's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidation (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (war) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Unlike the standard ranger, the martial ranger has no spellcasting ability. This description of martial ranger class abilities covers only those abilities that are not found in the ranger class description. The martial ranger's special abilities function only when he is wearing light or no armor.
Bonus Feats: At 1st and 2nd level, and every third level thereafter, the martial ranger gains the Track feat or a feat from the fighter bonus feat list. Note that the martial ranger must still meet all prerequisites for the feats he selects.
Special Abilities: At 7th level, and every third level thereafter, the martial ranger gains a special ability, which can be chosen from the following list. The martial ranger's special abilities only function when he is wearing light or no armor, and all of them are extraordinary.
Light Sleeper: Whenever the martial ranger is sleeping, he gains a bonus to all Listen checks equal to half his Ranger level (maximum +10). Note that sleeping characters usually have a -10 penalty to all Listen checks.
Trapfinding: The martial ranger gains the ability to search for and disable traps as a rogue. Disable Device remains a cross-class skill, however.
Evasion: The martial ranger gains the evasion ability.
Trapper: Whenever the martial ranger attempts to make a mechanical trap, his Craft (trapmaking) check gains a bonus equal to half his martial ranger levels.
Ranged Flanking: When the martial ranger is wielding a ranged weapon, he threatens foes (for purposes of flanking only) from up to 30 feet away. In order to threaten an enemy in this way, he must have line of effect, and his foe must be aware of his presence. Normally, you can only flank enemies with melee weapons.
Ranged Threat:When the martial ranger is wielding a ranged weapon, he is considered to have 30-foot reach for the purpose of determining his threatened area, and he gains the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon. A martial ranger can only make one AoO per round per target using this threatened area, even if the martial ranger has combat reflexes. Combat reflexes does allow the martial ranger to AoO more than one target in the same round using this threatened area. In order to take an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon, the martial ranger must have line of effect to his target. The martial ranger must have selected the ranged flanking special ability prior to taking this one.
Improved Evasion: The martial ranger gains the improved evasion ability. He must have selected the evasion special ability prior to taking this one.
Defensive Roll: The martial ranger gains the ability to roll with otherwise lethal attacks, as the rogue ability of the same name.
Skill Mastery: The martial ranger selects a number of skills equal to 3 + his Intelligence modifier. He can take 10 on those skills even when distractions or other adverse conditions would otherwise prevent him from doing so.
Camouflage: The martial ranger can use the Hide skill in any kind of terrain, even if it does not provide cover or concealment.
Hide in Plain Sight: The martial ranger can use the Hide skill even while being observed. He must have selected the camouflage special ability before this one.
Unimpeded Stride: The martial ranger's speed is unaffected by mundane impediments such as undergrowth, rubble, mud, or the like. Magically enhanced impediments have their full effect on him.

Miles Invictus
2006-12-06, 12:07 AM
The Martial Ranger now has more bonus feats than a Fighter. The Fighter's advantages amount to a slightly larger hit die and Weapon Specialization, compared to the Ranger's massive bonus feats and higher skill points.

I suggest you drop the "Bonus Feat" Special Ability, or restrict it. Maybe only allow skill-boosting feats?

Ranged Threat is a bit too powerful, I think. Unless I've misread it, you basically get a free attack when any enemy within 30 feet does anything but attack or make a five-foot-step. I know, my Reflexive Attack is almost the same thing -- but it's balanced out by the fact that it can only be used a few times per day.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-06, 12:24 AM
Bonus feat option - gone.

As for Ranged Threat, remember that it requires you to have Ranged Flanking first. If it also required, say, Point Blank Shot and a Dex of say, 19 or more, would that be better?

Miles Invictus
2006-12-06, 01:22 AM
That's not much of a deterrence, though. If I wanted to use Ranged Threat, I've already committed myself to using ranged weapons, so I'm going to want a high Dex and Point Blank Shot anyway. And Ranged Flanking is pretty tempting on its own.

I'm having second thoughts about how powerful it is, though. You can't get it before level 10, at which point your average caster will have enough ranks in Concentration to make defensive casting viable. Meanwhile, ranged fighters probably won't provoke AoOs since they don't need to move as much to attack, and melee fighters typically won't move except to engage a target or withdraw anyway. And anyone trying to attack you, personally, is going to close within a few rounds (or they're not fast enough to reach you, in which case it's only delaying the inevitable).

So, it's not as overwhelmingly powerful as I thought it would be.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-06, 01:38 AM
Right, and it mimics the way RL guns can be used in open areas.

Fako
2006-12-06, 04:12 PM
Why not make Ranged Threat similar to the Arrowmind spell from spell compendium? It makes it so they don't provoke AoO when firing in melee, and they threaten all adjacent squares as if they were using a melee weapon.

If you still want them to be able to make AoO at a distance, consider the rogue's Opportunist ability only allows them to make one such attack each round.

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-12-06, 04:25 PM
My two cents:

You want a martial ranger build?

Delete all spellcasting

Give a bonus feat whenever the ranger would normally have gotten a new spell level (4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th assuming high enough Wis score to get a bonus 4th level spell).

This gives them 4 bonus feats, but sacrifices all spellcasting abilities. Sounds like a fair exchange for me.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-06, 04:35 PM
4 bonus feats in exchange for all spellcasting abilities? Are you nuts? The fighter gets 11 bonus feats, and he is totally overshadowed by spellcasting classes. Granted, the ranger isn't a full spellcaster, but his spells can still be powerful. If less than a dozen feats can't match 10 levels of spells, I fail to see how one-third that many feats can match up to 4 levels of spells

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-12-06, 04:40 PM
4 bonus feats in exchange for all spellcasting abilities? Are you nuts? The fighter gets 11 bonus feats, and he is totally overshadowed by spellcasting classes. Granted, the ranger isn't a full spellcaster, but his spells can still be powerful. If less than a dozen feats can't match 10 levels of spells, I fail to see how one-third that many feats can match up to 4 levels of spells

What you have to observe is the synergy with which those feats can be used.

A Ranger already gets TWF/ITWF/GTWF as bonus feats already. Plus Track and Endurance. That's five feats as it is. Add in another four feats and you've got 9 bonus feats... almost as many as a Fighter does.

So look at some of the Ranger's other abilities:

Animal Companion, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Evasion, Camoflague, and Hide in Plain Sight. That's not even taking into consideration the extra skill points and better saves.

Yea, I'd say all that is worth a bonus feat. In fact, I'd say it was a bit over powered, but that's just me.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-06, 05:05 PM
All well and good, if what you're aiming for is basically the same as the PHB ranger except slightly less nature-druidy and more fighty. However, this is not what I am aiming for, which you would know if you had read the thread through more carefully.

Yakk
2006-12-06, 05:34 PM
Shneekey, being able to choose your feats is powerful.

And the cost (light armor only) for 3 of the Ranger's feats isn't trivial -- well, it isn't supposed to be trivial. :)

Miles Invictus
2006-12-08, 08:51 PM
It becomes less important at higher levels, since you can get that fancy Mithril Breastplate. Even so, a sword-and-board Fighter is stronger in the sense that they will typically have a higher AC: +3 for the Full Plate, and +1 for the Heavy Shield (presuming our hypothetical Ranger uses a Buckler). The Ranger needs a Dex of 18 just to break even with a Dex 10 Fighter.

Also, many of the Ranger's inherent abilities are either weak or very situation-specific. Track, Swift Tracker, and Endurance are neat abilities, but they are not top tier feats. Woodland Stride isn't even all that useful, as it doesn't protect against magical impediments. Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight have their uses, but a Ranger won't get the same benefit from them that, say, a Rogue or Assassin would. Evasion, strong as it is, is still a highly situational ability.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-09, 05:39 PM
... So are you saying that the class is balanced, underpowered, or overpowered?

Miles Invictus
2006-12-09, 10:05 PM
Like a lamprey, I was latching onto the minor debate between Shneeky, Yakk, and you. I was saying that the default Ranger has weaker abilities than the Fighter feats, and that the benefit derived from the Combat Style abilities is balanced out by the reduced AC. As far as balance between the default Ranger and the Fighter, I think the two are fairly balanced, though flavorwise I'd like to see Combat Styles other than "mad two-weapon fighting" and "sniping from a distance".

And I was also curious if the Martial Ranger had been revised any.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-09, 10:39 PM
And I was also curious if the Martial Ranger had been revised any.

Did you read the thread? If so, your curiosity has probably already been satisfied. If not, I advise you to do so.

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-12-10, 12:19 AM
It becomes less important at higher levels, since you can get that fancy Mithril Breastplate. Even so, a sword-and-board Fighter is stronger in the sense that they will typically have a higher AC: +3 for the Full Plate, and +1 for the Heavy Shield (presuming our hypothetical Ranger uses a Buckler). The Ranger needs a Dex of 18 just to break even with a Dex 10 Fighter.

Also, many of the Ranger's inherent abilities are either weak or very situation-specific. Track, Swift Tracker, and Endurance are neat abilities, but they are not top tier feats. Woodland Stride isn't even all that useful, as it doesn't protect against magical impediments. Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight have their uses, but a Ranger won't get the same benefit from them that, say, a Rogue or Assassin would. Evasion, strong as it is, is still a highly situational ability.

I would also point out that a Ranger can slap on a Mithril Breastplate has +5 armor and max Dex of +5, for a total of +10. Mithril Full Plate gives an armor bonus of +9 with a max Dex of +3 for a total of +12. That's only a two point difference. Also, a two-weapon fighter can use a defending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#defending) blade in his off hand, and use all the bonuses for AC (which stacks with all other bonuses, by the way) and either Two Weapon Defense or an enchanted buckler to make up for any shield bonuses (I'm not getting into the cheeze of a dancing shield).

Honestly, if you wanted to make a martial ranger, I'd seriously look at some of the Horizion Walker's non-planar terrain masteries (the low level ones) rather than feats. It's got flavor, and grants a benifit, without being so cracktackular as a what you have written. Pass them out at 4th and every 4 levels thereafter. Also give him Track at 1st level. And keep the style mastery bonuses.

Oh, and ditch Ranged Threat and Ranged Flanking. That's just plain crack on cheeze toast. It's even worse than the Spiked Chain cheeze, because at least the Spiked Chain is limited to 10' (15' if you can increase your size). That plus combat reflexes means anyone who gets inside 30' of you dies a horrid death.

I'd also suggest something bigger at level 20 to encourage straight builds versus multiclassing. If you keep the style masteries, then at 20th, you can get Perfect TWF for melee (one offhand attack for every regular attack) and probably Storm of Arrows for archery (1/day, shoot one arrow at every opponent in range, maximum number of targets equal to Ranger level).

Your current build, with lots of front-loaded bonus feats and skills, just screams 'Munchkin Min/Max Dip'. Declared bonus feats (like the Style Mastery chain) are much less munchkin-ey.

As an alternate suggestion:

Grant both Style Bonuses rather than choosing one, with a nifty style feat at around 16 and another at 20. Grant a bonus feat every level they would have gotten a spell level (4 bonus feats, starting at 4th level). Grant Terrain Masteries at 1st, 3rd and every 4 levels thereafter. Then just keep everything else in the 3.5 Ranger. Done. It's wildly overpowered and sheer crack, but at least it's less munchkiney than the one you currently have proposed.

magic8BALL
2006-12-10, 11:09 PM
...I think the concept that started out as "martial ranger" has been curupted into "how can we make a fighter more restricted, but have a d8 hit die and heaps of skills?"

...isn't the whole point of a ranger a warrior of nature? Isn't that martial enough?

Miles Invictus
2006-12-11, 03:24 AM
Also, a two-weapon fighter can use a defending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#defending) blade in his off hand, and use all the bonuses for AC (which stacks with all other bonuses, by the way) and either Two Weapon Defense or an enchanted buckler to make up for any shield bonuses (I'm not getting into the cheeze of a dancing shield).

That defending enhancement can be placed on shield spikes, which RAW can be enchanted like any other weapon, which makes it irrelevant to the discussion (since both players can access it). Thus, the buckler-wielding TWFer will have -- I stand corrected -- three less AC. But that's assuming that the TWFer has the Dexterity to make full use of his Mithril Breastplate. An entirely possible situation, mind you, but those points of Dexterity weren't free.



Honestly, if you wanted to make a martial ranger, I'd seriously look at some of the Horizion Walker's non-planar terrain masteries (the low level ones) rather than feats. It's got flavor, and grants a benifit, without being so cracktackular as a what you have written. Pass them out at 4th and every 4 levels thereafter. Also give him Track at 1st level. And keep the style mastery bonuses.

I have to admit, I rather like the Horizon Walker's stuff. And I also like the idea of having multiple style masteries.



Oh, and ditch Ranged Threat and Ranged Flanking. That's just plain crack on cheeze toast. It's even worse than the Spiked Chain cheeze, because at least the Spiked Chain is limited to 10' (15' if you can increase your size). That plus combat reflexes means anyone who gets inside 30' of you dies a horrid death.

Ranged Flanking is fine. Keep in mind that your opponent must be directly between you and your ally, and there can't be anything else between your enemy and you, and your enemy must be aware of you (so no hiding).

I mean, it'd be trouble, if your Ranger was in the center of a featureless plane, with all of your allies on the outside of a circle, surrounding all of your enemies. But I don't think very many DMs use the Adventures in Flatland campaign setting these days. :smalltongue:

Actually, if you think it's too strong, it could be brought in line by designating a single target to flank (or perhaps all targets within a small cone).

Ranged Threat, I'm still conflicted. I think it's really strong, but I also think it's very situation-dependant. That's why I liked my version better -- it gave a very strong benefit, but even in the best of situations it wasn't a "Win" button, since you could only do it once or twice.



I'd also suggest something bigger at level 20 to encourage straight builds versus multiclassing. If you keep the style masteries, then at 20th, you can get Perfect TWF for melee (one offhand attack for every regular attack) and probably Storm of Arrows for archery (1/day, shoot one arrow at every opponent in range, maximum number of targets equal to Ranger level).

Your current build, with lots of front-loaded bonus feats and skills, just screams 'Munchkin Min/Max Dip'. Declared bonus feats (like the Style Mastery chain) are much less munchkin-ey.

Good point -- for dipping, this Ranger is a much better choice than the Fighter, since you get those bonus skill points.



As an alternate suggestion:

Grant both Style Bonuses rather than choosing one, with a nifty style feat at around 16 and another at 20. Grant a bonus feat every level they would have gotten a spell level (4 bonus feats, starting at 4th level). Grant Terrain Masteries at 1st, 3rd and every 4 levels thereafter. Then just keep everything else in the 3.5 Ranger. Done. It's wildly overpowered and sheer crack, but at least it's less munchkiney than the one you currently have proposed.

You had some good points, but here you lost me. You're saying that 6 bonus-feat-equivalent style bonuses (which ignore prerequisites!), 2 "nifty style" feats, 6 Terrain Masteries, and 4 bonus feats are somehow weaker than 8 bonus feats and 6 special abilities?!


Did you read the thread? If so, your curiosity has probably already been satisfied. If not, I advise you to do so.

I did read the thread. I wanted to know if you had made any changes that had not been posted yet, since the thread seemed to die off amid a discussion on balance. Apparently, the answer is "no".

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-11, 04:33 AM
Sorry. Looking back I realize you had commented earlier, whereas making that comment, I somehow thought you were a new person.

Oh, and would ranged threat be more balanced if it only worked within a 30-foot cone?

Miles Invictus
2006-12-11, 06:14 AM
Yeah, I need to make myself a unique avatar. (...maybe a psionic wizard T-Rex... :smallsmile:)

Well, the reason I'm so on-the-fence about it is that is both highly powerful and highly situational. If you have a situation where people are doing a lot of stuff that provokes attacks of opportunity, you can combine it with Combat Reflexes to tear entire armies apart. A lot of stuff provokes attacks of opportunity: Spells, potions, movement, bull rush, ranged attacks -- ahhh...now I see the problem. Like an ass, I forgot all of that other stuff that provokes attacks of opportunity.

It's not just "shoot anyone that moves", it's "skewer anyone within 30-feet who dares do anything other than a melee attack or a five-foot-step, and then force them to make Concentration checks to continue acting".

Hmm...how about this:

Ranged Threat
Benefit: As a free action on your turn, select one foe within 30 feet or the range of your weapon, whichever is lower. As long as your designated foe is within this range, you may make a single ranged attack of opportunity on him. If an enemy moves onto or through the line-of-effect to your target, you may attack that enemy instead.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-11, 06:57 AM
I like my 30-foot cone idea better.

Hmm. Hang on. If an opponent does multiple AoO-provoking things in your threatened area, does he provoke multiple AoOs, or just one?

Yakk
2006-12-11, 11:15 AM
Ranged Threat:When the martial ranger is wielding a ranged weapon, he is considered to have 30-foot reach for the purpose of determining his threatened area, and he gains the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon. A martial ranger can only make one AoO per round per target using this threatened area, even if the martial ranger has combat reflexes. Combat reflexes does allow the martial ranger to AoO more than one target in the same round using this threatened area. In order to take an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon, the martial ranger must have line of effect to his target. The martial ranger must have selected the ranged flanking special ability prior to taking this one.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-12, 03:14 PM
Ranged Threat:When the martial ranger is wielding a ranged weapon, he is considered to have 30-foot reach for the purpose of determining his threatened area, and he gains the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon. A martial ranger can only make one AoO per round per target using this threatened area, even if the martial ranger has combat reflexes. Combat reflexes does allow the martial ranger to AoO more than one target in the same round using this threatened area. In order to take an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon, the martial ranger must have line of effect to his target. The martial ranger must have selected the ranged flanking special ability prior to taking this one.

This is almost precisely what I'm looking for. Thank you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-12-13, 12:31 AM
I have to admit, I rather like the Horizon Walker's stuff. And I also like the idea of having multiple style masteries.

You had some good points, but here you lost me. You're saying that 6 bonus-feat-equivalent style bonuses (which ignore prerequisites!), 2 "nifty style" feats, 6 Terrain Masteries, and 4 bonus feats are somehow weaker than 8 bonus feats and 6 special abilities?!

Like you said, unnamed bonus feats are a lot more powerful than pre-destined bonus feats. Your M-Ranger, as listed, could easily get some of the more broken feat combos nearly as early as a Fighter could (like Power Attack/Shock Trooper) using weapon selections that aren't very typical for Rangers (like using a Greatsword with the above feat selection).

Sure, you're getting two different feat chains, but you can only use one at a time. One is for ranged combat, the other for TWF (which, as you pointed out, is not as broken as a 2h Power Attacking smasher).

And most of the Terrain masteries give bonuses to ranger-ish skills and a +1 against monsters from that terrain type. They cannot stack because only one will apply at a time. The only major Terrain benifit is Underground which gives 60' Darkvision. The rest are skill bonuses.

This will encourage Rangers to be more Rangery and less Figher Wannabeish. They should have a unique nitche in the game without stepping on anyone else's toes. That's why the pre-selected feats rather than the flat bonus feats (which is the only thing the Fighter has going for him).

Miles Invictus
2006-12-13, 05:49 AM
If you pick up Quick Draw and equip throwing weapons, you can use both combat styles at the same time. Granted, your accuracy might go down a bit, but hey -- that's what a full BAB is for. Well, that and Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, and the Terrain Masteries (which cover a lot of ground).

Basically, at level 20 you get 9 ranged attacks per round (4 primary, 4 off-hand, 1 from Rapid Shot) for -2 or -1 to hit. And you'll still have a regular bonus feat and an archery style feat to spend. And none of these abilities have any serious prerequisites -- you don't have to sacrifice at all to gain them.

The equivalent path for the Martial Ranger would consume more than its allotment of bonus feats: Perfect TWF takes 4, Improved Precise Shot takes 3, then Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus. Ten feats. On top of that, the player needs 25 Dex to pick up Perfect TWF (as part of a combat style, your Ranger presumably gets it for free).

That's not to say every Ranger is going to do such...but if I am given a class with two free combat styles, I'm sure as hell going to try and get them to synergize properly.

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-12-13, 11:48 PM
If you pick up Quick Draw and equip throwing weapons, you can use both combat styles at the same time. Granted, your accuracy might go down a bit, but hey -- that's what a full BAB is for. Well, that and Weapon Focus, Point-Blank Shot, and the Terrain Masteries (which cover a lot of ground).

Basically, at level 20 you get 9 ranged attacks per round (4 primary, 4 off-hand, 1 from Rapid Shot) for -2 or -1 to hit. And you'll still have a regular bonus feat and an archery style feat to spend. And none of these abilities have any serious prerequisites -- you don't have to sacrifice at all to gain them.

The equivalent path for the Martial Ranger would consume more than its allotment of bonus feats: Perfect TWF takes 4, Improved Precise Shot takes 3, then Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus. Ten feats. On top of that, the player needs 25 Dex to pick up Perfect TWF (as part of a combat style, your Ranger presumably gets it for free).

That's not to say every Ranger is going to do such...but if I am given a class with two free combat styles, I'm sure as hell going to try and get them to synergize properly.

Sure, you could do that, and do around 1d6 per shot. Or you could, as the currently statted M-Ranger, get Power Attack, Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leaping Charge. Which does more damage? Let's see... the build I came up with does (2d6*(Str*1.5))*3 and can be done easily by level 10. Furthermore, just to make this cheeze really stink, let's toss in EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. Spiked Chain is, in fact, a two-handed weapon, so he'll only loose an average of two points (2d4 rather than 2d6) of damage, but is able to cut a wide swath through a whole horde of creatures.

The Ranger I have listed can't be doing upwards of 130+ damage per round nearly as easily as the one statted.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-13, 11:59 PM
ok, how about the Martial Ranger gets fewer bonus feats then?

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-12-14, 07:53 AM
ok, how about the Martial Ranger gets fewer bonus feats then?

That was, ultimately, what my original suggestion was. I also highly suggest you space them out so as to prevent the dreaded 'cheeze dipping sauce' syndrome. This is why I suggested at those levels in which they would normally gain spell levels. It's spaced out, and there's four of 'em. Toss in the Terrain stuff (specifically, the non-planar stuff) and they should be good to go. I'd still like to see them get Track and Swift Tracker, though. Come on, every real Ranger who has ever been taken seriously, from Aragorn to Dr***t, has been able to track their opponents down. Even the Urban Ranger variants used Track, they simply used it in a different fashion. It's not going to break the character class, and gives another string for the GM to pull to get the plot moving again.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-14, 08:21 AM
Trooper
Alignment: Any.
Vitality Die: d8.
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Bonus feat
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|~
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Bonus feat
4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|~
5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|~
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Bonus feat
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Special ability
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|~
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Bonus feat
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Special ability
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|~
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|Bonus feat
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Special ability
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+4|~
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|Bonus feat
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Special ability
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5|~
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Special ability
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|~[/table]Class Skills
The soldier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidation (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (war) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficency: The soldier is proficient in all simple and martial weapons and in light armor and shields.
Bonus Feats: At 1st and 3rd level, and every third level thereafter, the soldier gains the Track feat or a feat from the fighter bonus feat list. Note that the soldier must still meet all prerequisites for the feats he selects.
Special Abilities: At 7th level, and every third level thereafter, the soldier gains a special ability, which can be chosen from the following list. The soldier's special abilities only function when he is wearing light or no armor, and all of them are extraordinary.
Light Sleeper: Whenever the soldier is sleeping, he gains a bonus to all Listen checks equal to half his soldier level (maximum +10). Note that sleeping characters usually have a -10 penalty to all Listen checks.
Evasion: The soldier gains the evasion ability.
Ranged Flanking: When the soldier is wielding a ranged weapon, he threatens foes (for purposes of flanking only) from up to 30 feet away. In order to threaten an enemy in this way, he must have line of effect, and his foe must be aware of his presence. Normally, you can only flank enemies with melee weapons.
Ranged Threat: When the soldier is wielding a ranged weapon, he is considered to threaten in a 30-foot cone as well as his normal threatened area, and he gains the ability to make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon. A soldier can only make one attack of opportunity per round per target using this threatened area, even if the soldier has combat reflexes. Combat Reflexes does allow the soldier to make more than one attack of opportunity against different targets in the same round using this threatened area. In order to take an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon, the soldier must have line of effect to his target. The soldier must have selected the ranged flanking special ability prior to taking this ability. A soldier attacking with a ranged weapon in melee combat provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Defensive Roll: The soldier gains the ability to roll with otherwise lethal attacks, as the rogue ability of the same name.
Skill Mastery: The soldier selects a number of skills equal to 3 + his Intelligence modifier. He can take 10 on those skills even when distractions or other adverse conditions would otherwise prevent him from doing so.
Camouflage: The soldier can use the Hide skill in any kind of terrain, even if it does not provide cover or concealment.
Unimpeded Stride: The soldier's speed is unaffected by mundane impediments such as undergrowth, rubble, mud, or the like. Magically enhanced impediments have their full effect on him.[hr]

That was, ultimately, what my original suggestion was. I also highly suggest you space them out so as to prevent the dreaded 'cheeze dipping sauce' syndrome. This is why I suggested at those levels in which they would normally gain spell levels. It's spaced out, and there's four of 'em.
I've arranged it so that they gain a bonus feat every time they would normally gain a feat. Is that okay?


Toss in the Terrain stuff (specifically, the non-planar stuff) and they should be good to go. I'd still like to see them get Track and Swift Tracker, though. Come on, every real Ranger who has ever been taken seriously, from Aragorn to Dr***t, has been able to track their opponents down. Even the Urban Ranger variants used Track, they simply used it in a different fashion. It's not going to break the character class, and gives another string for the GM to pull to get the plot moving again.I guess I should rename the class. In fact, I will. The class formerly known as the martial ranger is now known as the soldier, which better captures the flavor of it. Also, you seem to have forgotten that Track is on their list of bonus feats.

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-12-14, 08:39 AM
Umm... Soldier is already statted... it's the D20 Star Wars version of a Fighter.

A Soldier wouldn't have any of the special abilities listed. They're far more suited to a Rogue or Scout than Soldier.

If you wish this to be a Scout variant, I could see this as being somewhat overpwered, but at least thematically correct.

I'd drop 2 bonus feats and a HD size for Improved Evasion, Ranged Threat, crapton of extra skill points, Trapfinding, and HIPS any day of the week.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-14, 08:52 AM
Yes, I know that the Soldier is already the name of a class in the Star Wars d20 game. However, this class is not for Star Wars d20, so I fail to see your point.

Edit: Now, 4 skill points per level. Improved Evasion, trapper, trapfinding, and hide in plain sight are gone from the special ability list. Is that better?

ShneekeyTheLost
2006-12-14, 10:35 AM
Yes, I know that the Soldier is already the name of a class in the Star Wars d20 game. However, this class is not for Star Wars d20, so I fail to see your point.

Edit: Now, 4 skill points per level. Improved Evasion, trapper, trapfinding, and hide in plain sight are gone from the special ability list. Is that better?

*rolls his eyes*

It's not the abilities that are the problem. It's the bonus feats.

Bonus feats are a Fighter thing. Wizard is the ONLY other core class with bonus feats, and his are limited to metamagic and item creation. Giving other classes bonus feats in job lots is just making a better Fighter.

I also notice that you took out thematically nice but effectively worthless (trapper and trapfinding) and the less powerful abilities (improved evasion only is handy if you fail a save and HIPS is only handy if you have a lot of ranks in Hide), but didn't bother with the two I've been saying are overpowered to begin with: Ranged Threat and Ranged Flanking, both of which are horridly broken.

You're doing anything and everything to retain your bonus feats, when that is the core of my argument about the class.

You've taken away all the flavor, and replaced it with bonus feats. If that isn't munchkinism, I don't know what is...

Ultimately, I think I'm going to have to discontinue discussing this since it's clear that we are never going to come to an agreement on this. Go ahead and make your class however you want to. Just don't expect any sane GM to ever allow it in their game.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-14, 10:57 AM
*rolls his eyes*

It's not the abilities that are the problem. It's the bonus feats.

Bonus feats are a Fighter thing. Wizard is the ONLY other core class with bonus feats, and his are limited to metamagic and item creation.

I refer you to the Monk, and also the Rogue, whose special abilities can be used to buy any feat. By RAW, the rogue doesn't even have to meet the prerequisites.


Giving other classes bonus feats in job lots is just making a better Fighter.Mmhmm. And in a game where it has been conclusively demonstrated that casters PWN, making a better non-magic-using class is a bad thing? And while we're on the subject, do you have similar objections to the classes in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords?:smallconfused:


I also notice that you took out thematically nice but effectively worthless (trapper and trapfinding) and the less powerful abilities (improved evasion only is handy if you fail a save and HIPS is only handy if you have a lot of ranks in Hide), but didn't bother with the two I've been saying are overpowered to begin with: Ranged Threat and Ranged Flanking, both of which are horridly broken.What has been taken out can be put back in. And I really must disagree with you on Ranged Flanking. Ranged Threat, I will admit, needs more tweaking. Edit: I just revised Ranged Threat.


You're doing anything and everything to retain your bonus feats, when that is the core of my argument about the class.

You've taken away all the flavor, and replaced it with bonus feats. If that isn't munchkinism, I don't know what is...I have reduced the number of bonus feats, spaced them out, and taken away certain special abilities that I thought did not fit the flavor of the class - which is, allow me to remind you, is that of a slightly more modern-style soldier. And tell me, how much flavor does your precious Fighter class have?


Ultimately, I think I'm going to have to discontinue discussing this since it's clear that we are never going to come to an agreement on this. Go ahead and make your class however you want to. Just don't expect any sane GM to ever allow it in their game.Sanity is so subjective, isn't it? Fortunately for me, I am the GM.:smallyuk:

Yakk
2006-12-14, 11:26 AM
Class name. No need to reuse a name already in a pretty mainstream d20 product! Thesaurus to the rescue!

Using thesaurus.com:
Soldier
Infantry*
Private*
Trooper*
Doughboy*
Mercenary/Merc*
Serviceman
Commando
Dogface
Freelance
Legionnaire
Guerrilla
GI/GI Joe
Combatant

I particularly like Infantry and Trooper.

Calling it Infantry lets you make a Dragoon or Cavalry class. :)

You want your class to gain something every level.

And you want levels 10 to 20 to give better stuff than lower levels, to deal with spellcaster scaling and prestige class competition.

This may require minor abilities added to the class for filler. Heck, you could make two tiers of special abilities, one you get at low level, and one you get at higher level.

The holes are currently L 4, and L 2 and every 3 levels after L 2.

So toss in an ability at L 4 (say, light sleeper -- which is the weakest of the Soldier's special abilities). At L 2 and every 3 levels, give some minor benefit.

How about 1/day charges of some combat move?
Snipe: Full round action. Take a single ranged attack with a to-hit modifier equal to your Wisdom, and a damage bonus equal to infantry level/2.
Dodge and Weave: Gain infantry level/2 AC and a Wisdom Reflex save modifier against ranged attacks and spells for one round. Free action.
Hunker Down: Improve cover by infantry level/2 against attacks from a specific direction. This bonus lasts Wisdom bonus rounds, plus 1 for every 3 infantry levels (min 1). This bonus is eroded by 1 point every time you attack or otherwise expose yourself. Full round action.
Grunt's Luck: An attack that could have missed does (wisdom bonus) less damage. Every 4 infantry levels adds 1 to the damage soaked.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-14, 11:48 AM
Why is it so important to give an ability at every level? Plenty of classes, core and non-core alike, don't.

Yakk
2006-12-14, 12:48 PM
The better designed core classes give something at each level.

Be it a "per level" ability upgrade (paladin LoH), new spells, or something to set them apart.

At the very least, it gives the player of the class something to get excited about when they gain a level.

magic8BALL
2006-12-14, 09:51 PM
So what is it now... a fighter with only light armor proff., a smaller HD, more skills and a slightly different bonus feat progresion.

How about you just make Ranged Flanking a feat available to fighters (prereq: Point Blank Shot) and call it a day.

I didn't say Flanged Threat, becouse that's broken:
"The mage moves from 15ft from you to 25ft from you..."
"I take my attack of oppotunity."
"...and casts a spell."
"And I take another attack of oppotunity."

If you want to Evasion, multiclass. If you want camoflage, multicalss. If you want Defensive Roll, or Unimpeeded Stride, mulitclass.

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-14, 10:13 PM
So what is it now... a fighter with only light armor proff., a smaller HD, more skills and a slightly different bonus feat progresion.

How about you just make Ranged Flanking a feat available to fighters (prereq: Point Blank Shot) and call it a day.

I didn't say Flanged Threat, becouse that's broken:
"The mage moves from 15ft from you to 25ft from you..."
"I take my attack of oppotunity."
"...and casts a spell."
"And I take another attack of oppotunity."

If you want to Evasion, multiclass. If you want camoflage, multicalss. If you want Defensive Roll, or Unimpeeded Stride, mulitclass.

If you read the revised text of the Ranged Threat ability, you can only make one AoO per opponent. Thus, the situation you just described is prevented.

Siberys
2006-12-15, 12:45 PM
I have made a stronger version of this class; it's essentially a fighter with your special abilities and combat styles;

Combat styles at third, seventh, and twelfth
Bonus feats at first, second, and every other level thereafter.
Special abilities at eighth and every two levels thereafter

This is stronger, but I allow fighters a feat every level, d12 hit die, and more skills, so I believe they balance out. It just seemed like yours was a weaker fighter for the first five levels...

cheers,
Siberys

Lord Iames Osari
2006-12-15, 12:50 PM
I have made a stronger version of this class; it's essentially a fighter with your special abilities and combat styles;

Combat styles at third, seventh, and twelfth
Bonus feats at first, second, and every other level thereafter.
Special abilities at eighth and every two levels thereafter

This is stronger, but I allow fighters a feat every level, d12 hit die, and more skills, so I believe they balance out. It just seemed like yours was a weaker fighter for the first five levels...

cheers,
Siberys

Wait, I'm confused... first you say that your class was stronger, then you say that my class is stronger. @_@

Siberys
2006-12-15, 12:53 PM
In both cases I meant mine was stronger... :smallredface:

Also, I forgot to say that I allow fighters the Weapon Focus chain free at the levels the feats first become available.

sorry for the confusion!

cheers,
Siberys

Krursk
2006-12-21, 10:31 PM
I don't like the new Trooper. The Martial Ranger, in my mind, seemed to be a Ranger without the need to use two weapon fighting or multishot, neither of which I like. Now it's just doesn't seem to have many skill points, which is one thing rangers are good at having