Stupid Idead #4 - Ability Bundles

[FreakyCheeseMan]

For the past while I've been working on building a game system from the ground up - recently, I've taken to putting my more unorthodox ideas up here, to see how much of an idiot I am for considering them. :smallbiggrin:

Today's idea is: Ability Bundles. (This one's simpler than most of the others.)

The Idea
So, with pretty much any RPG system, at assorted times you use character resources - feats, spells known, manoeuvres, whatever - to purchase assorted abilities for your character. My notion is very simple - instead of purchasing these on a one by one basis, have them come as part of a small set of thematically similar abilities.

For instance, a fighter might purchase a "Brute Force" bundle - this would improve his power attack, give him a bonus on Bull Rush/Overrun attempts, and improve his natural weapon damage during a grapple. A mage might purchase a "Fire Magic" bundle, that would give them a Fireball spell, a "Resist Fire" spell, and the ability to magically control existing natural fires.

Justification - Realism
I think this one is pretty easy to justify in terms of realism - most of the time, people do not learn abilities in isolation - the skills you develop for one technique will often improve others, or you'll learn additional tricks as part of the learning process for the thing you're really going after.

Justification - Gameplay
This is the big one.

First and least importantly, I feel like this will make it a little easier to balance abilities that draw from the same pool, by giving me the option of pairing weaker and stronger options, so that in the end, each "Bundle" works out closer to the same.

However, what I'm really going for is something else. I feel like, especially in 3.5, there are a lot of "Cool" options that no sane person would ever go for - usually because they're too much of a niche option. These options are sometimes cool and flavourful, and I imagine a lot of people would want to pick them - except they feel obligated to stick with the things that really drive the core functionality of their character.

So, my hope is that packaging options together with Ability Bundles would mean that fun and flavourful (but maybe not so effective) options can still get some play; players can focus on keeping up in terms of optimization, but still get the more interesting, more esoteric stuff as well.

So. What do people think?

[Yitzi]

Potentially a good idea, but you'd have to be careful not to bundle things that really have no in-universe justification for it.

[zabbarot]

So this sounds a lot like what classes do in 3.X, y'anno? Take a level dip, get a set of thematically related abilities.

Simplified to less powerful things, it sounds like something comparable to the Tactics feats I guess?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So this sounds a lot like what classes do in 3.X, y'anno? Take a level dip, get a set of thematically related abilities.

Simplified to less powerful things, it sounds like something comparable to the Tactics feats I guess?

*Nods* Yeah, the tactics feats are similar, I think, and so are classes, to a degree. This is just meant to be a bit more flexible than classes, and more broad-ranging and integrated than tactics feats.

[OzymandiasX]

Also keep in mind that players like to advance consistently. You'll almost always find that it is more enjoyable to get smaller "things" (whether a level, feat, or bundle) on a regular basis than one biger "thing" much less often.

So if you're bundling feats and feats take an average of 12 game sessions to earn one (one feat per 3 levels, 4 game sessions per level), then you're stuck with the problem: Do you scale player power up more quickly by giving a bundle every 12 session, or do you have players wait a lot longer (36 sessions seems like forever) to gain a bundle equivalent to 3 feats?


Maybe instead of bundles being earned all at once, leave them as separate things, but give make 'synergy bundles' that give an added bonus once a set of things are earned.

Example: The fighter in your example buys Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, and either Improved Bullrush or Overrun.... Completing this bundle gives him a +X to damage or opposed rolls made using any of these abilities.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Well, I'm actually not using a conventional levelling mechanic - things like HP, BAB, Saves, don't advance at all - so, the only thing that happens when you level up is you get more options (and occasionally more actions.) So, it might not be unreasonable to offer a bundle every level.

[Yitzi]

Well, I'm actually not using a conventional levelling mechanic - things like HP, BAB, Saves, don't advance at all - so, the only thing that happens when you level up is you get more options (and occasionally more actions.)

So if a soldier straight out of the academy fights an experienced veteran, the veteran will have more options but they'll both have the same chance of success with their attacks?

Are you sure that's a good idea?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So if a soldier straight out of the academy fights an experienced veteran, the veteran will have more options but they'll both have the same chance of success with their attacks?

Are you sure that's a good idea?

Not quite the same, but it's not going to be as extreme a difference as with 3.5. But, what they have is not going to be a simple +1 BAB, for a number of reasons, both in terms of mechanics and realism.

I imagine it being more a cast of... they have the same base BAB, but the experienced soldier has something akin to Weapon Focus/Specialization with his weapon, and a stance that gives him an attack bonus against enemies on difficult terrain, and the capacity to get free counterattacks when he parries, and more attacks per round to begin with.

...Why Not:

Justification: Gameplay
First, I very rarely see tabletop games actually including fights between "Rookies" and "Veterans," for one very good reason - the typical, numbers-increase-as-you level system makes it boring. So, in practice, what you see it more "I level up; I get +1 BAB; I am now fighting enemies with +1 AC; nothing has changed, except that I have to do slightly more math." So, it feels like that sort of system doesn't actually add anything to the game play - it just means that you have a greatly reduced range of enemies you can realistically fight.

Secondly, I actually think that a fight between a rookie and a veteran - at least under certain circumstances - *should* be an interesting fight, which the typical mechanics simply do not allow for. Try to make a fight between any reasonable number - let's say less than 10 - first level fighters, and one 20th-level fighter, interesting in 3.5. To give the lower-level fighters a shot, you pretty much have to knock the 20th-level guy out and tie him to a table before the fight begins.

With my system, the "Veteran" still has all kinds of advantages, but those advantages are more interesting, and don't equal: "And he has no reason to care about anyone more than five levels lower than him" If the veteran is outnumbered, or has a terrain disadvantage (enemy fighters are archers on shore, he's on a boat), or is already wounded, or is somehow without his weapon, things become interesting again.


Justification - Realism
Gonna kick this one off with an anecdote.

I trained for about a year in Aikido, and had a great rapport with one of my two teachers; a lot of the time we'd end up messing around as he taught me some new technique or other. Anyway, there was one very particular, very reliable trend - he never "Made" a technique work on me that I was trying to resist. If I was too well prepared for another student to do a particular throw or trip, he wouldn't even try - he'd just move on to something else and do that instead. I had about six inches and fifty pounds on the guy, but he could absolutely beat me every time we sparred, and not because he was executing any particular technique better than me - rather, he had the experience to A: Recognize whatever I was doing and B: know the right move to counter it.

And I think that's actually the case in real life - the more experienced fighters aren't better because they're stronger or faster or more precise, they're better because they're trickier, and they've seen it all before. So, when you fight them, they're not doing "The same thing you are, only better" - they're playing on a whole different level, and what happens to you will not be what you expect.

Secondly, experienced people *are* still vulnerable to newbies, under any number of situations. Numbers absolutely matter; choice of weapon, terrain, pre-existing wounds, you name it. Even experienced veterans still come in a human chassis - the same things that kill us kill them, which, to me, makes them that much more bad-ass.

[Yitzi]

Not quite the same, but it's not going to be as extreme a difference as with 3.5. But, what they have is not going to be a simple +1 BAB, for a number of reasons, both in terms of mechanics and realism.

I imagine it being more a cast of... they have the same base BAB, but the experienced soldier has something akin to Weapon Focus/Specialization with his weapon, and a stance that gives him an attack bonus against enemies on difficult terrain, and the capacity to get free counterattacks when he parries, and more attacks per round to begin with.

Wouldn't it be easier just to give him a "combat skill" that can be used for various effects? It can still be small enough that a tactical advantage or sufficient number discrepancy can beat it.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Wouldn't it be easier just to give him a "combat skill" that can be used for various effects? It can still be small enough that a tactical advantage or sufficient number discrepancy can beat it.

Easier, but less interesting - again, I want the higher-level fighter to have more options as the defining difference. Some of those options might increase his raw attack bonus in most situations (Weapon Focus, depending on how I decide to do that), but most of them are going to be ways he can turn assorted situations to his advantage - that list could include everything from making trip attempts as a move action, to treating his opponent as flat-footed after successfully dodging, to having a "Lunge" option to treat his weapon as if it had reach for a single attack, to making a sneak attack with a side arm after feinting with his main weapon, to pretty much anything else.

And again, just giving fighters higher attack numbers seems kinda boring - "You have a higher attack; now go fight things with a higher defence."

[Nightraiderx]

optional idea: Instead of having them all bundled up
you can instead grant: bonus abilities to those who want the added benefit.
For example:
If I take an ability to be able to survive in the wild better
Ability 1# Survival Grants you abilities to be able to survive in the woods.
Ability 2# Track Grants you abilities to be able to track down a target
Bonus Ability: Hunt Grants you bonus abilities in combat using a mental action against a single target.

The ability is automatically gained and completes the "bundle."
once a bundle is made none of the abilities gained through that bundle can be used to create another bundle, although if you have the prequisites you can still buy the bonus ability.