Why does CL matter?

[Os1ris09]

I always have been designing builds and trying to max out CL as much as possible, or at least not lose any CL's. However, I don't understand why they are so important.

Those of you that are veteran cheese hunters or master spell players please teach me the method of your ways and why CL is important?

[Story]

Theres's two distinct notions: Caster Level and level of actual spellcasting ability.

The second is critical because it gives you access to more powerful spells and higher level spells are exponentially more powerful. It is also much harder to get and easier to lose. Outside of cheese like Dragonwraught Kobold, the only way to advance spellcasting is by leveling.

CL is simply how effective your spells are. It's nice to have but relatively less important. A spellcaster with 9th level spells and CL17 is way better than one with CL 100 and only 1st level spells available. CL is also much easier to boost or lower. In fact, it's a strange caster who doesn't have a CL much higher than their spellcaster level, at least by high levels.

Even in Core Only, there are two CL boosts easily available: Orange Ioun Stone and a level in Archmage. Outside of core, CL boosters are a dime a dozen.

[Urpriest]

Usually builds don't care about losing CL nearly as much as they care about losing progression as a spellcaster, since that leads to higher level spells and spells are predicated on the level you're expected to have access to them (with X person spells appearing when you're more likely to fight humanoid NPCs for example).

CL is valuable, don't get me wrong, from everything to preventing dispels to getting more powerful effects out of Shapechange and Gate. But usually when people tell you not to lose CL, they mean levels of spellcasting progression.

[Grinner]

Like Vaarsuvius when she (he?) took on Xykon, you can have all of the spells in the world at your fingertips, but if your CL is too low, they'll be ineffective against the dangerous monsters.

In other words, a high CL maximizes the efficiency of your spells.

[Story]

Not really. A CL17 Shapechange isn't as good as a CL25 (or 28 with Dragonlance) one, but you're still God. The only real issue is that it's easier to dispel, and dispelling is rarely worthwhile unless you're specifically optimized for it.

And CL wasn't Varsuuvius's issue, seeing as she disjuncted the AMF like it was a sure thing. Sure she could have been lucky, but I don't think she'd be willing to try a spell with low odds of success when under such time pressure.

[The Grue]

Like Vaarsuvius when she (he?) took on Xykon, you can have all of the spells in the world at your fingertips, but if your CL is too low, they'll be ineffective against the dangerous monsters.

In other words, a high CL maximizes the efficiency of your spells.

Not the case. Save DC is affected only by the sum of the spell level and relevant ability score modifier. Caster level only gives you better SR penetration, longer durations or wider areas of effect, and more damage dice for blasting spells. If you want your spells to more reliably have effect, you want to boost your casting stat. Unless you're trying to punch through SR, in which case yeah you need CL, but then you still need the target to fail their save.

If you're just hurling fireballs and want more dice...well, have fun with that.

[DeltaEmil]

There are some spells where high caster level might mean instant death of the enemy, like in the case of the Holy Word/ Dictum / Word of Chaos / Blasphemy spells.

[Story]

Also, OOTS characters are about as low op as you can get. An optimized Wizard of Varsuuivius's level could easily wipe the floor with OOTS Xykon, no pact necessary.

[navar100]

It matters for spells that scale with level, such as damage dice and duration. Depending on the spell a short duration will suffice, but often you need or want a spell to last as long as possible. For damage spells, if you fall behind they can become nearly useless. A 5d6 Fireball is great at 5th level. At 15th level 5d6 means diddlysquat, only really good for mop up.

However, the real big deal is overcoming spell resistance. People see all these monsters with spell resistance in the Monster Manual and get apoplectic to even lose one caster level. What really matters is what happens in your game. If you are fighting a lot of monsters with spell resistance, then caster level matters a lot. If it's little to none, it's not a big deal. For that one monster whose spell resistance you can't overcome, think on your feet and do other strategies. Such a combat is a good time to go hog wild buffing other party members for example.

Another big deal is spell progression. Some people believe if you don't have 9th level spells by the time you reach level 20 you are The Suck. It is certainly true spells become quite potent the higher the level, but they aren't mandatory to have if you prefer other character abilities. You aren't playing wrong if you never cast Gate or Planar Binding or even Prismatic Spray.

Edit: Wow, ninja'd with 7 responses. :smallsmile:

[WhatBigTeeth]

At low levels, durations are extremely important, and even just +2 CL can push a blast into the instant-death range.

At high levels, dispels are some of the most reliable debuffs available. They don't have to deal with saves or touch attacks, they hurt almost everything, and there's a good chance you'll want the spells prepared daily for utility purposes at well. You don't want your dispels to fail, and you don't want the other guys' dispels to succeed.

Plus, the general all-purpose benefits of CL like added range, numeric effects, SR penetration... it's a stat that benefits any caster in just about every way.

[Story]

People see all these monsters with spell resistance in the Monster Manual and get apoplectic to even lose one caster level.


That doesn't really make sense to me. The standard response is to just use SR:No spells, and if you really need to break SR, there's always stuff like True Casting. But there are so many things that increase and decrease CL that it doesn't make sense to talk about "losing" a CL. Losing it relative to what?



Some people believe if you don't have 9th level spells by the time you reach level 20 you are The Suck.

More like, you are "The Suck" if you don't have them by level 17. Obviously it actually depends on game style and personal preference (people usually don't even play Tier 1s) but if you are playing an optimized spellcaster, there's a huge difference between 8th level and 9th level spells. It's less of an issue for theoretical builds which are normally only measured at level 20.

[Coidzor]

I always have been designing builds and trying to max out CL as much as possible, or at least not lose any CL's. However, I don't understand why they are so important.

Those of you that are veteran cheese hunters or master spell players please teach me the method of your ways and why CL is important?

When you lose caster levels you're that many levels behind in getting access to the levels of spells you're expected to have at your effective character level. Wizard-based spellcasters have 3 levels they can lose before they cannot get access to 9th level spells prior to epic levels. Sorcerer-based spellcasters have 2 levels they can lose before they can't get 9th level spells.

As for the CL itself, having lower CL than expected for your ECL makes your spells easier to dispell, last for a shorter amount of time, and have less of an effect if the effect is dependent upon CL (such as CLd6 of damage or the like)

There's... a semi-famous post on the subject of why you never sacrifice a caster level without getting a commensurate benefit in exchange or just plain never sacrifice one...

[KillingAScarab]

Even in Core Only, there are two CL boosts easily available: Orange Ioun Stone and a level in Archmage.Don't forget cleric domains. Chaos, Evil, Good, Healing, Knowledge, and Law all add +1 caster level to spells with certain descriptors or which belong to a specific school/subschool.

[Gavinfoxx]

I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels.

II. Wieldest thou thy two-handed weapon with alacrity; but two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack.

III. Doubt not the power of the Druid, for he is mighty.

IV. Avoid ye the temptation of Gauntlets of True Strike, for they shall lead thee astray down the Path of Non-Rule Cheese.

V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.

VI. Makest thou no build with an odd number of fighter levels, for such things are not pleasing to the Spirits of Optimization.

VII. The Rules of 3.5 are paramount; invoke not the rules of 3.0 if a newer version be available.

VIII. When beseeching the Bretheren of Optimization, come thou not empty handed, lest they smite thee; rather, bringest thou thine own build, that they may offer suggestions and guidance.

IX. Invoke not "common sense," for it is not common.

X. Thou shalt call no build "The Ultimate X" unless his name be Pun-Pun, or thou shalt see thine "Ultimate" build topped by the Bretheren within five minutes of posting.

By this they mean, 'at level 20, if you are playing a cleric, you should have 20 levels of cleric spellcasting', which means Cleric + prestige classes that fully advance casting for the levels you take them, without multiclassing. THAT sort of caster level, make sense?

[Chronos]

Important caveat: The "don't lose casting" advice is based on the assumption that you're optimizing for power. Losing a level of casting is, in fact, a huge hit to your power level... But by the same token, most casters start off with enough power that they can afford it. In fact, it might even make you more harmonious with the non-caster members of the party. You still want to get something good in exchange, of course, but that something good can be fun rather than powerful.

[eggynack]

Of course, the "never lose caster levels" rule doesn't apply universally, even for optimizers. The real rule is, "Never lose caster levels, unless you'd get something crazy awesome in return." Offhand, the list I can think of goes something like warweaver, malconvoker, ruby knight vindicator, and sandshaper. There might be others too, but those four are pretty amazing, and are probably worth the loss in spell advancement.

Of course, there are two definitions of CL. This has been noted several times in this thread. The first meaning is the one I used above, and the second is the one that you can boost with an orange ioun stone. So, why does this type of CL matter? Because it does a pretty set list of things that have also been listed on this thread. It makes your spells last longer, your save DC's higher, let's you bypass spell resistance better, and sometimes your spells actually gain more power.

However, those things aren't necessarily necessary. They're very nice to have, but there's a whole subset of spells that don't rely on saves, duration or a power boost from CL, and bypass SR entirely. Many of these spells are quite useful, and you can bypass a lot of the need for boosted CL by having them. Think spells like wall of stone. The only thing you're getting from boosted CL for that spell is a 5 foot square per level. It's also highly powerful. Some of the best spells in the game get only marginal benefit from CL. Black tentacles bypasses saves and SR entirely, and you only get a boost to duration. Summon spells have a similar level of reliance on CL. Getting CL is highly useful for many things, and it's often the best use of your time. However, it's not strictly necessary for caster optimization to boost it.

[Os1ris09]

Ok, I got a lot more replies then I thought I was going to get. Nice to see some old faces replying that helped me with my ranger/scout/dervish build ages ago.

Thanks again for the responses and teaching me the ways of the 10 D&D 3.5 Commandments :smallbiggrin:

I appreciate the explanations everyone gave. To clarify I wasn't referring to actual spell levels (its obvious 9th lvl spells are better than others) I was referring to your caster level lol.

Thanks again for all of the information.

[eggynack]

Yeah, I kinda figured that that was the one you were talking about. The kinds of caster levels that let you cast higher level spells aren't the kind of thing you can usually boost. It was a bit confusing though, because the weaker kind of caster level isn't the kind of thing you usually lose. Either way, caster level does what caster level does. No more, no less. Now manifester level, that's a big ticket item.

[Story]

your save DC's higher

Actually, CL doesn't affect save DCs.

[Flickerdart]

Do note that there's a rule about not being able to cast spells if your CL is too low, but the definition given for that is "the CL necessary to cast the spell" which is rather tautological when you think about it. This is usually taken as "the minimum CL you would have in your class before you were able to cast the spell" (so a wizard with CL16 would not be able to cast Shapechange) but to my knowledge it's not actually spelled out like that anywhere in the rules, and other casters would be able to get away with a CL of as low as 9 for Shapechange anyway.

[KillingAScarab]

Do note that there's a rule about not being able to cast spells if your CL is too low, but the definition given for that is "the CL necessary to cast the spell" which is rather tautological when you think about it. This is usually taken as "the minimum CL you would have in your class before you were able to cast the spell" (so a wizard with CL16 would not be able to cast Shapechange) but to my knowledge it's not actually spelled out like that anywhere in the rules, and other casters would be able to get away with a CL of as low as 9 for Shapechange anyway.Caster level is also important for activating a spell on a scroll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm).


If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

It also notes that, generally, the minimum caster level required is twice the spell level - 1. So, no, a caster level of 9 is not adequate to automatically succeed at casting shapechange from a scroll. This doesn't quite hold true for paladins, rangers and others with 1/2 class level as caster level. The minimum caster level of 3rd level spells is 5 as expected, but interestingly this means paladins and rangers can successfully cast 3rd level spells from scrolls before the class gives them 3rd level spell slots (at class level 11). If you follow this logic, then 1st and 2nd paladin/ranger spells should be available earlier than the classes grant them; at class levels 2 (granted, there isn't a caster level before class level 4) and 6, respectively, with 3rd level spells actually coming at 10. If you reject it, then paladin and ranger spells of 1st and 2nd level have minimum caster levels of 2 and 4, respectively.