Vamped Shadow Sun Ninja as BBEG

[joca4christ]

Not planning on using this any time soon. Just wanted to throw it out there.
Wouldn't a SSN who had succumbed to the darkness (I.e. Taken enough Con Dmg to die thus becoming a vampire) be an awesome endgame villain?

Would he be an evil overlord, ruling a kingdom without a mighty fist, like the BBEG of the Inheritance Cycle? Would he be a behind the scenes manipulator?

The beauty of this concept...a quest into Hell (or the Abyss, whichever applies) could win the day, just as easily as outright defeating the villain.

What are your thoughts, Playgrounders?

[SciChronic]

wouldn't he lose most of his SSN powers upon becoming a vamp though?

[joca4christ]

wouldn't he lose most of his SSN powers upon becoming a vamp though?

Nope. According to RAW, not only do you retain all abilities as a SSN, but you don't have a weakness to sunlight like ordinary vamps.

[Waker]

Honestly, were I to run a SSN Vampire as a villain, I would do it one of two ways.
1. The vamp is a powerful enemy, but not the BBEG himself. The maneuvers make him strong, but not quite tough enough to complete with a party by himself nor does he have any built-in mechanics to make him directly threaten the world. Maybe splash some Master of the Nine in there.
2. Go crazy with the plot. Make it so that there is some bit of information that he knows or a ritual that only he can perform. The party now must brave the underworld and retrieve his soul, then slay the vampire, then resurrect him so that he can do whatever needs doing. So the Macguffin of that campaign would also be the BBEG.

[joca4christ]

I can see what you are saying. Just think the right combo of race and maneuvers and classes could make this guy one scary dude. I mean, in my mind, the guy would have been around for a long time. Epic legend of a hero gone bad. Can do all the things a vamp can do, plus other crazy scary things a sword sage is capable of. Including being invisible, teleporting, and all that.

I know that's nowhere near as epic as a power mad wizard, but there is lots of story fodder there.

[Callin]

Its a fun concept and one I have actually used before. It didn't progress to the end though.

The SSN was once a great warrior who sacraficed himself to defeating a great evil only to succed him upon defeat. Great storyline wish I could have completed it.

[Crinias]

The general idea of such a villain is pure brilliance. It's just asking to be used as one of the most powerful minions of a BBEG. Waker and joca4christ nailed it.

I mean, for crying out loud, it's a fallen-hero vampire ninja that fights with its bare fists, uses manuevers and is immune to sunlight. If you can't derive something awesome from that, you're a lost cause.

Aside from the whole 'rescuing his soul from hell', I really suggest having the final confrontation with the vampire on his home turf, with lots of difficult terrain that can be taken advantage of using Swordsage manuevers. Actually, if you manage to keep secret that he's a vampire, or better yet, that he's a vampire that is immune to sunlight, when you reveal it to the PCs it could be really epic/hilarious.

If I were ever to use it , I'd be mean about it and take advantage of the extra feats that come from being a vampire to make such a villain qualify for Master of Nine levels after the fact. My players tend to be optimizers, so I have no problem with throwing a solo villain against them that is around 7-10 levels above them. That way, if the PCs ever manage to rescue the poor guy's soul, there's more than one legitimate excuse for him to be weaker than his vampire.

Also, I just have to add that a Shadow Sun Ninja with Falling Sun Attack + Snap Kick + Balance of Light and Dark + Quicksilver Motion (to not have to spend a round getting into position)+ Time Stands Still = A world of pain.

I'm really, really tempted to make a Jojo's Bizarre Adventure reference to Dio right now, but I have more dignity than that.

[Waker]

Since most PCs aren't likely to be bigger than large, Setting Sun maneuvers can be quite effective against them. Dipping Rogue or Monk to grab Spell Reflection and combining it with Wall of Blades is funny against players who like using ray attacks.

[joca4christ]

Minion, schminion! :) I think the concept has great merit as the BBEG. Maybe he's the first ever SSN fallen that way. Maybe he's devoted himself to twisting good things into evil. Maybe he's been around a few centuries, gotten bored, and taken other class levels.

I can see the guy palling around with Blackguards, evil clerics, and necromancers. I can see him working behind the scenes to turn once noble kingdoms into a dark mockery of themselves, twisting creatures of light into creatures of darkness.

Forget about epic head on confrontations. This guy has (un)lived so long because he's just hard to hit. Surprise and deception are his tools.

Think you have a strong party? What happens when he starts dominating and/or vamping your allies? (It's the kind of thing he'd do.)

Seriously, I can see this villian as an epic character, a mix of class levels if need be to make him more dangerous.

[Talionis]

Well most people find the SSN to be a fairly underpowered class.

You continue progressing as a monk. Monks generally aren't scary.
You get a few new maneuvers, but really you don't add many. You also can't switch out your lower level maneuvers.
Most of the other powers aren't that amazing.
I'm a fan of SSN just like I am a fan of Master of Masks, but both seem pretty underpowered.

If he is the BBEG, then I'd suggest giving him some powerful minions. But you wouldn't want all his minions to be undead (the healing requires using positive energy). Possibly combination of Vampire Spawn and hired mercenaries. SSN provides a healing and battlefield control role.

[Waker]

The build I would use if I were running this guy as a BBEG would be something along the lines of Cobra Strike Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 3/SSN 10/Master of Nine 5. Cobra Strike Monk gives you Improved Unarmed Strike and Dodge, while being a Vampire gives you Improved Initiative, so you have most of the Mo9 feats right there. Snag Spell Reflection in place of Evasion combined with Wall of Blades to knock around Ray attacks. Because you have Dodge and Mobility from being a Cobra Strike Monk, grabbing Elusive Target is an excellent choice. Use Shadow Hand to jump around the battlefield. Setting Sun can be used to rearrange the players and toss a charging character.

Alternatively you could replace Master of Nine with another PrC, such as Lifedrinker (BVD), Master Vampire (LM) or if you wanted to play up him being sneaky Spymaster would also work. Or for even more amusement, make the race Changeling and then take the Cabinet Trickster PrC from Races of Eberron. Tracking down a shapeshifting vampire should keep the party busy.