Master of Nine

[Renen]

Can I hear some opinions on the class? It looks pretty good, but the required feats are a killer. Its like the WotC crew got together and said "lets take some of our worst feats and make them a pre-req for a PrC"

[Yael]

Do you want ugly prereqs? Ask Frenzied Berserker~~

[Jeff the Green]

It's not that bad. Adaptive Style is de rigeur for swordsages and you can be an unarmed swordsage to get UAS free. That leaves one horrible feat, one meh feat, and one good feat. Plus, you can take Desert Wind Dodge instead of Dodge, which makes it decidedly less painful.

[Metahuman1]

Look up the locations that give you feats for visiting them. There are some in the manual of the planes and a few other books here and there.


Now apply magic item rules to them to cut down there equivalent GP value (Going there and getting the feat only works if your the right class combo. And you already have a certain feat. And are of a certain alignment. And a certain Race. And it inflicts some minor annoyance of a penalty. ) and get them down as cheap as you can. Now visit them in place of what ever treasure you got them down to the value of.


Now crack open the Players Handbook 2's feat retraining rules. Retrain the feats you took form locations to the feats you need for prerequisites for something that aren't good enough to be taken on there own.


Repeat as needed and enjoy a PrC that doesn't make you feel like it was nerfed by it's own entry requirements on purpose.

[Renen]

Do you want ugly prereqs? Ask Frenzied Berserker~~

Actually they arent that bad. Cleave isnt as horrible as dodge. And Power atack is actually good. The other 2, yeh they are kinda crap

[navar100]

It is awesome. I did it as a crusader with a two level dip in swordsage. Progressing maneuvers in crusader, along with Extra Granted Maneuver by campaign end at 18th level I had 11 maneuvers readied, 9 granted at the start of each combat, and refreshed for no action cost every three rounds.

If you can use the unarmed variant for swordsage that saves you a feat. Except for Dodge the feat prerequisites aren't terrible. Feats are secondary to your character. You're all about the maneuvers.

The quandary is when you want to enter. You get a lot of maneuvers in only 5 levels. You want to time your entry so that you get the maneuvers of the level you want, i.e. wanting a lot of 6th and 7th level maneuvers or 5th and 6th. If you know the game will end before 20th level that's important and helps towards your decision. However, if the game will reach 20th level or close to it or beyond, you may want a lot of 8th and 9th level maneuvers so you would enter Master of Nine late in the campaign.

[Phelix-Mu]

If retraining via psychic reformation or PHB2 rules are available in your campaign, it looks decidedly better, as you can op level-by-level and then retrain in the level or two before you take Master of Nine.

The trick about picking up bonus feats from various sources and then retraining them is sketchy. I seem to recall that bonus feats from these kinds of sources aren't supposed to be retrainable, but I'm sure the RAW on this point is just as sketchy as it is on any other common sense point.

[Renen]

what say you on class features?

[Phelix-Mu]

Master of Nine has very strong class features, namely a lot of maneuvers compared to many of the other ToB PrC (and delivered in a more compact package). Lots of win in the other class features, too.

And, in a nice manner, ToB PrC are a particularly strong choice for multiclass martial adepts, due to the interesting dynamic in the initiator level calculation.

In short, if you are already multiclassing between martial adept classes and can retrain the feats to meet the pre-reqs and bear the loss of better feats, then Master of Nine is a very attractive option.

Even if it weren't quite so good, the general dearth of ToB stuff in the amassed 3.5 material means that every scrap of ToB is better than it should be because it is internally synergistic.

But there are plenty of other ways to make very effective martial adepts.

[avr]

If the character taking Master of Nine has a bunch of warblade levels, you can get at least one of the feats required from the warblades' otherwise rather lackluster list.

Dual stance is the best of the listed class features, but getting a large number of high-level maneuvers is great for the warblade which otherwise has a fairly limited number of them. They can also come from any discipline which is good regardless of how you entered the PrC.

[Douglas]

The prerequisites are a major pain to deal with, but the benefits are quite strong.

The sheer quantity of maneuvers known, maneuvers readied, and stances known is a superb base, and being able to pick from all 9 disciplines makes it even better. With careful planning and consideration, a Swordsage base can cherry pick a lot of the best stuff from every discipline. A Crusader has the hardest time qualifying, but applying the Crusader recovery mechanism to all those maneuvers readied is very powerful. Warblades also benefit a lot from the extra maneuvers readied.

On to class features, Dual Stance is a limited use version of the Warblade capstone, and is highly useful for many characters. The one-at-a-time restriction is a major limit on the power and usefulness of stances, and anything that relaxes that is a substantial boost.

Perfect Form, sadly, is a piece of junk. Most maneuvers don't offer saves at all, and most of those that do either use a skill check to set the DC (which is plenty easy enough to optimize without this) or aren't very good.

Counter Stance is a superb ability, as there are several stances that provide defensive benefits and this lets you switch into them on the spot when needed rather than having to see the danger coming.

Mastery of Nine just provides some numerical bonuses, but those bonuses can be pretty significant. Adding the full +9 damage on every attack in a Raging Mongoose/Time Stands Still combo with Haste adds up fast, especially if you're two weapon fighting.

[Pickford]

Look up the locations that give you feats for visiting them. There are some in the manual of the planes and a few other books here and there.


Now apply magic item rules to them to cut down there equivalent GP value (Going there and getting the feat only works if your the right class combo. And you already have a certain feat. And are of a certain alignment. And a certain Race. And it inflicts some minor annoyance of a penalty. ) and get them down as cheap as you can. Now visit them in place of what ever treasure you got them down to the value of.


Now crack open the Players Handbook 2's feat retraining rules. Retrain the feats you took form locations to the feats you need for prerequisites for something that aren't good enough to be taken on there own.


Repeat as needed and enjoy a PrC that doesn't make you feel like it was nerfed by it's own entry requirements on purpose.

Retraining requires the character to be able to qualify for the feat when they got the other one. Because the locations only give a single specific feat, there's no other feat that the character would qualify for. Therefore this does not work.

[TypoNinja]

Now crack open the Players Handbook 2's feat retraining rules. Retrain the feats you took form locations to the feats you need for prerequisites for something that aren't good enough to be taken on there own.


This does not work. The retraining rules require that when retraining a feat the new feat you are choosing would have been a valid choice at the time you gained the feat you are training away.

You cannot retrain your 6th level feat into improved critical, because at 6th level you didn't qualify for it. A fighter bonus feat must be retrained to another fighter bonus feat, because fighter bonus feats were the only legal options when selecting that feat.

If you gained Iron Will from sitting in an Otyugh hole, you can't retrain it at all because at the time you gained it, there were no other legal choices.

If you want to feat shuffle at will you'll have to go all out and Dark Chaos Shuffle.

edit: The Ninja, out Ninja'd! Oh the humanity!

[Metahuman1]

Actually, it does work. The feats your retraining too to get Master of Nine? They could all be taken at first level assuming you had the feat slots. It's just that a lot of them are weak, particularly compared to other options. So while you could take them, you wouldn't, particularly in that combination.

However, with my suggested trick, you have a lot of other weak feats that your trading in for, thus leaving your regular feats alone for better stuff like Stone Power/Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip with Knock Down and Robilars Gambit + maybe Karmatic Strike, The Mage Slayer Line, and so on.

[Darrin]

If the character taking Master of Nine has a bunch of warblade levels, you can get at least one of the feats required from the warblades' otherwise rather lackluster list.

Two, actually, if you stick it out to Warblade 9: Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative.

You can pick up most of the prereqs via dips, although you want to be careful not to take more than 6 levels of non-Martial Adept classes. Otherwise you won't be able to get 9th level maneuvers.

Dodge:

Hadozee get this as a bonus feat. It got cut off of Stormwrack page 41, but check page 151.

Cobra Strike Monk 1 (Unearthed Arcana/SRD). Variant fighting style.

Desert Wind Dodge (Tome of Battle). Not immediately useful to a Warblade, but take note that if you take this feat *after* you've already taken Dodge, you can swap Dodge for another bonus feat. So if you wait to get into Mo9, pick up a Desert Wind maneuver/stance, then take Desert Wind Dodge and convert boring vanilla Dodge into something that's actually useful.

Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild). The go-to feat for "I need Dodge but I want something actually useful". And it works very well with standard-action strikes: move action to trigger the +2 AC bonus, then standard action strike. Getting the 40' might be a concern (particularly since Fast Movement frequently gets traded for Pounce), but there are a variety of ways to boost your base speed by +10'.

Midnight Dodge (Magic of Incarnum). Satisfies the Dodge prereq, but also gives you 1 point of essentia that you can use for something other than Dodge. Useful for Azurin or other Incarnum builds that may need a point of essentia for something else, such as Incarnum Strike, Thunder Step Boots, etc.

Blind-Fight:

Warblade bonus feat (Tome of Battle).

Dragon Totem Barbarian 1 (Unearthed Arcana/SRD). Bonus feat.

Darkness domain power (Spell Compendium/FRCS).

Shadow domain power (Eberron Campaign Setting).

Improved Initiative:

Warblade bonus feat (Tome of Battle).

Sleeping Tiger Monk 2 (Unearthed Arcana/SRD). Variant fighting style.

Time domain power (Spell Compendium).

Dragonfly Medallion (29760 GP, A&EG). Provides the feat when worn.

Improved Unarmed Strike:

Monk 1.

Battle Dancer 1 (Dragon Compendium).

Unarmed Swordsage variant (Tome of Battle).

Shou Disciple 1 (Unapproachable East).

City Brawler Barbarian ACF (Dragon #349). Also gets TWF (Unarmed Strike Only), and reduces improvised penalty to -2.

Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun). Also functions a bit like a Necklace of Natural Weapons, allowing you to add enchantments to your unarmed strikes (but at double the cost).

Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun). Also imprints your target with little "hammer" impressions.

Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic). In addition to IUS, also provides Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), and 1 point of Constitution damage when you crit with an unarmed strike.


The "best dip" to get into Master of Nine is probably Cleric with the Time and Darkness domains: Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative. You can also do the Cloistered version and throw Knowledge Devotion in there for a little bit of a damage buff. Turn Undead can be used to power various other abilities/feats, and may grease the wheels to get into RKV later (if you can talk your DM into allowing non-Wee-Jas RKVs or "worshiping an ideal" adaptations). An even number of dips helps even out your Initiator Level, so pairing this up with Cobra Strike Monk gets you two more prereq feats: Improved Unarmed Strike and Dodge. However, you lose 2 BAB that way.

If you want to keep your BAB as high as possible, then Battle Dancer 1/Dragon Totem Barbarian 1 works well for two prereq feats and Whirling Frenzy. Fighter 2 can then get you Improved Initiative and Dodge.

[Renen]

I am not overly familiar with clerics, but do I not need to have a god grant me the domains? If so, what god grants the above two domains? As a lvl 1 dip for 2 feats looks nice.

[Aegis013]

I am not overly familiar with clerics, but do I not need to have a god grant me the domains? If so, what god grants the above two domains? As a lvl 1 dip for 2 feats looks nice.

You can have "worship an ideal" according to the Player's Handbook. As long as you can think of something where those two domains would be an appropriate and thematic fit to the ideal, you can do it.

Though some DM's don't like it, but the rules do allow it.

[Darrin]

I am not overly familiar with clerics, but do I not need to have a god grant me the domains? If so, what god grants the above two domains? As a lvl 1 dip for 2 feats looks nice.

Off the top of my head, I don't believe there are any published deities that actually have those two domains in their portfolio. However, there are several work-arounds:

1) According to the PHB, you can worship a concept or ideal, which allows you to pick whichever two domains you want. However, this annoys many DMs, and some of them don't allow this.

2) According to Deities & Demigods, you can worship an entire pantheon, such as the Asgardian Pantheon, Greek Pantheon, Egyptian Pantheon, and so on. Unfortunately, this was a 3.0 book, and the Time and Darkness domains were not included, so it's not clear if these pantheons would still have those domains available. There are some deities that obviously *should* have certain domains released in later books (Odin is a bit of a shoe-in for the Time domain), but this would be up to the DM.

3) The pantheon thing is also available in Eberron, where you can choose to worship the Sovereign Host or the Dark Six. Unfortunately, even though the Time domain was already out, none of the Eberron sourcebooks identify a deity with Time in their portfolio. The Shadow domain is there in the Dark Six (under "The Shadow", of course), so if you can convince your DM to assign Time to one of the Dark Six (maybe the Traveler would work), you'd be good to go.

4) In Elder Evils, there's a Yuan-Ti-ish serpent-demon called Sertrous, and there's a bit about his worshippers on page 116: "Clerics of Sertrous can choose their domains freely as if they were clerics devoted to an ideal, although most choose Destruction and Trickery." He's Chaotic Evil, but you can be out-of-alignment by one step and still worship him. As an additional bonus, if worship of Sertrous ever gains a meaningful foothold in the world, the earth starts to spontaneously vomit torrents of snakes and serpentine creatures.

[Shining Wrath]

There is an alternative feature, possibly homebrew, that lets a Warforged trade its slam attack for Improved Unarmed Strike. My DM let me take that.

You can also ask your DM if you can have the PF version of Dodge, which is a simple +1 Dodge boost to AC, not limited to a single foe.

So then you get the following pre-reqs:
1) Adaptive Style - should be a Swordsage class feature, so this is feat tax for playing any Swordsage.
2) Dodge - even the PF version is bad, so put it off as long as possible before entering Mo9
3) Blind Fighting - this is a good feat, and you can get it at Warblade level 5 or 9
4) Improved Initiative - this is an acceptable feat, and you can get it at Warblade level 5 or 9
5) Improved Unarmed Strike - a feat whose value depends upon your chosen style. Either good or useless.

[Pickford]

Actually, it does work. The feats your retraining too to get Master of Nine? They could all be taken at first level assuming you had the feat slots. It's just that a lot of them are weak, particularly compared to other options. So while you could take them, you wouldn't, particularly in that combination.

However, with my suggested trick, you have a lot of other weak feats that your trading in for, thus leaving your regular feats alone for better stuff like Stone Power/Power Attack, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip with Knock Down and Robilars Gambit + maybe Karmatic Strike, The Mage Slayer Line, and so on.

Feats from locations cannot be retrained because of the restrictions on retraining. Chaos shuffle doesn't net 'additional' feats.

[Talionis]

The "best dip" to get into Master of Nine is probably Cleric with the Time and Darkness domains: Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative. You can also do the Cloistered version and throw Knowledge Devotion in there for a little bit of a damage buff. Turn Undead can be used to power various other abilities/feats, and may grease the wheels to get into RKV later (if you can talk your DM into allowing non-Wee-Jas RKVs or "worshiping an ideal" adaptations). An even number of dips helps even out your Initiator Level, so pairing this up with Cobra Strike Monk gets you two more prereq feats: Improved Unarmed Strike and Dodge. However, you lose 2 BAB that way.

If you want to keep your BAB as high as possible, then Battle Dancer 1/Dragon Totem Barbarian 1 works well for two prereq feats and Whirling Frenzy. Fighter 2 can then get you Improved Initiative and Dodge.

I agree that Cleric is a wonderful dip for this kind of build:

Ruby Knight Vindicator is strong. But if you choose not to get another base initiator other than Swordsage, RBV gives you a way to use Turn Attempts to recharge maneuvers which can be important.

BAB isn't terribly important for most maneuvers so losing one BAB shouldn't be that bad even though you are melee. But some builds may find this an issue.

Turn Attempts can fuel a lot of things. I'm a fan of Trickery Devotion. Clones can use maneuvers.

It saves two feats, which is better than a level of fighter.

While I advocate for a level of Unarmed Swordsage, I would advise working a level of Crusader or Warblade because their recovery mechanics are far superior to Swordsage.

[Metahuman1]

Feats from locations cannot be retrained because of the restrictions on retraining. Chaos shuffle doesn't net 'additional' feats.

Where is that restriction specified? Book and page number please?

[TypoNinja]

Where is that restriction specified? Book and page number please?

Well PHB 2 obviously enough, its the book about retraining.

Page 192 . Under the "The Process" subheading.


Change one class feature option to another legal one. The new option must represent a choice that you could have made at the same level as you made the original choice. Also, the new choice can't make any of your later choices illegal

Then, just to drive the point home one page 193, under the feat retraining section, again on "The Process" subheading


You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.

Example: A 4th-level fighter/1st-level rogue couldn't trade the Mobility feat he chose at 3rd level for Improved Critical, because he doesn't currently meet a prerequisite for the latter feat (base attack bonus +6). He also couldn't trade that mobility feat for Weapon Specialization, even though he currently meets the prerequisite (fighter level 4th), because he could not have done so as a 3rd-level character.

The important bit is "another legal one" for something like a location granted feat there are no other legal choices. It grants you the listed feat, not a choice between a few.

You could Chaos shuffle your Location based feat away, and then go to the location again*, but that's an entirely different flavor of cheeze. :P

*provided the location itself doesn't specify only a one time use or similar language.

[Metahuman1]

Um, ok, that's not rock solid.

As near as I can tell from reading the published text, all I have to do is meat the requirements for the feat at the same level I got the location feat. Since the feats I'd be retraining too for Master of Nine entry are all feats that can be taken at first level by anyone who meets the requirements of being a martial initiator and having high enough stats (Example: Wis 13 for blind fight.).


So, say for example that in place of money I take a location that gives me Awareness at level 2. Then when I level up to level 3 I take Improved Initiative by retraining Awareness. I still met the requirements for the feat at level 1, so I could still retrain too it.


Another example, let's say I'm a straight classed crusader and I get a location that gives me weapons focus at level 3. When I level up to level 4, I retrain it to Adaptive Style. I met the requirements as of level 1 when I took my first crusader level, making it valid.



I'm seeing the potential limitation on some feats, i grant that, but I'm not seeing the problem for doing it to get into Master of Nine.

[Aegis013]

Um, ok, that's not rock solid.

As near as I can tell from reading the published text, all I have to do is meat the requirements for the feat at the same level I got the location feat. Since the feats I'd be retraining too for Master of Nine entry are all feats that can be taken at first level by anyone who meets the requirements of being a martial initiator and having high enough stats (Example: Wis 13 for blind fight.).


So, say for example that in place of money I take a location that gives me Awareness at level 2. Then when I level up to level 3 I take Improved Initiative by retraining Awareness. I still met the requirements for the feat at level 1, so I could still retrain too it.


Another example, let's say I'm a straight classed crusader and I get a location that gives me weapons focus at level 3. When I level up to level 4, I retrain it to Adaptive Style. I met the requirements as of level 1 when I took my first crusader level, making it valid.



I'm seeing the potential limitation on some feats, i grant that, but I'm not seeing the problem for doing it to get into Master of Nine.

You're interpreting "at the time" as "at the level" but that's not what it means. It means exactly what it says: at the time. At the time you got the feat from a location, the only feats you could've gotten are the feats offered by that location. So retraining Iron Will to Skill Focus(Intimidate) from an Otyugh Hole is possible, but retraining Iron Will to Weapon Focus is not.

Secondly, Blind-Fight has no pre-requisites.

If your DM allows it then it should be fine, but I'm pretty sure by strict RAW you can't retrain location granted feats to feats not offered by that location.

[Chronos]

The feat has to be something that you qualified for at the time you gained the old feat. When you gained Iron Will wasn't when you leveled up, it was the time when you visited the Otyugh Hole. And at that time, there was exactly one feat you qualified to take.

[Douglas]

Hair-splitting aside, the whole point of that restriction is clearly that retraining allows you only to switch between valid builds, not make a build valid that was not valid before. If you can't make a build without using retraining, then retraining won't let you do it either.

[Aegis013]

The feat has to be something that you qualified for at the time you gained the old feat. When you gained Iron Will wasn't when you leveled up, it was the time when you visited the Otyugh Hole. And at that time, there was exactly one feat you qualified to take.

Actually Otyugh Hole offers four feats: Extend Rage, Iron Will, Menacing Demeanor, or Skill Focus(Intimidate).

For a Non-Half Orc/Orc, character without Rage class feature, only Iron Will and Skill Focus(Intimidate) are available.

[Renen]

We are kind off topic here >_<

[Aegis013]

We are kind off topic here >_<

Well, depending on what you want to do, it can be a potentially awesome PrC, even at the cost of the feats. For things like Idiot Crusader builds, it's absolutely necessary. For something like a Charger Warblade in a game that doesn't allow flaws on the other hand, it's really a toss up.

In gestalt it can be amazing for an initiator as well.

[Renen]

What are the idiot crusader and initiator?

[Aegis013]

What are the idiot crusader and initiator?

Initiators just refer to the Martial Adept classes (Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade). Ie, they have initiator levels.

Idiot Crusader is a particular kind of build where you get your Crusader's Granted maneuvers higher than his known maneuvers, making his refresh mechanic grant you a group of maneuvers infinitely, so you can spam your best maneuver over and over without stopping in combat. Here's the original build/post (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8218.0), although many iterations of the build can be created.

As far as Idiot Crusader goes, it's also important to discuss some interpretations with DM, such as if you can only know a maneuver once, so if your first level is Swordsage and you take Stone Bones and Charging Minotaur, and your second level is Crusader, are Stone Bones and Charging Minotaur not available?

[TypoNinja]

Actually Otyugh Hole offers four feats: Extend Rage, Iron Will, Menacing Demeanor, or Skill Focus(Intimidate).

For a Non-Half Orc/Orc, character without Rage class feature, only Iron Will and Skill Focus(Intimidate) are available.

I genuinely didn't know you got options. I thought it was only Iron Will. cool.

In this case yes, you could retraining Iron Will into any of the others that you qualify for.

Here's an easy way to look at why it has to be feats you qualified for at the time rather than anything else. An Elf.



Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

Four feats granted by the race. Pretty much every other race is obsoleted by this if you are allowed to retrain them. Barring something specific (like needing a race as a prerequisite) 4 extra feats pretty much trumps everything.

Fortunately they cannot be retrained, at the time you gained them (remember the PHB gives an order of operations for creating a character) there are no other legal choices, race choice coming before feat choices.

[Chronos]

Quoth Aegis013:

For things like Idiot Crusader builds, it's absolutely necessary.
Technically not necessary: There's also a version of the Idiot Crusader that only uses Warblade and Crusader, which achieves the same effect by using up possible maneuvers known with the Warblade levels. Of course, this doesn't give you nearly as much versatility (most or all of your crusader maneuvers end up needing to be Devoted Spirit, and you don't get the other benefits of Mo9), but it can come online much quicker.

[Aegis013]

Technically not necessary: There's also a version of the Idiot Crusader that only uses Warblade and Crusader, which achieves the same effect by using up possible maneuvers known with the Warblade levels. Of course, this doesn't give you nearly as much versatility (most or all of your crusader maneuvers end up needing to be Devoted Spirit, and you don't get the other benefits of Mo9), but it can come online much quicker.

This depends on an interpretation not spelled out in the book itself though.

The interpretation you're talking about is that if you take a level of Warblade and select Leading the Attack, Douse the Flames and Charging Minotaur as your maneuvers, then if you take Crusader next level, there's only Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, and Stone Bones left to select from.

The book doesn't ever actually say you can or can't only have a maneuver known once though, so if you take the interpretation where you can have maneuvers known multiple times under different initiator progressions you end up with something like this:
You take Warblade at first level, select Leading the Attack, Douse the Flames and Charging Minotaur as your maneuvers.
You take Crusader at second level, your options for maneuvers are no different than had you taken Crusader at first level.

In the second version, Mo9 is necessary. In the first version, I guess it isn't absolutely necessary, but it really improves the build to the point where not taking it would be kind of silly.