[3.5] How real can we get a Simulacrum?

[Jack_Simth]

Hey all,

First off, yes, I'm aware of the Ice Assassin spell from Frostburn - that has some drawbacks that I don't want to deal with (Namely, the whole "all consuming need" to kill the original - not a good idea when what you plan to copy is yourself), however, so is off the table for this exercise.

The question, however, is as the subject: How real of a simulacrum can we mechanically get using WotC sources?

Suppose we cast it on the Plane of Shadow - that should bring it from half-real to 60% real... but I'm sure we can do better. The question is: How?

Edit: I suppose basically what I'm asking is what methods are there to increase the reality of an arbitrary [Shadow] spell.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Where are you getting that it becomes 60% real? I can't see anywhere that the plane of shadow enhances simulacrum.

I can't see any way of making it more real, all I can think of is giving it magic items and persistent buffs to give it similar stats to the original creature.

[Rhynn]

150% real shadow spells is a pretty well-known build, isn't it? There's a prestige class in Underdark and something in... Races of Stone, I think? Not too sure.

[Jack_Simth]

Where are you getting that it becomes 60% real? I can't see anywhere that the plane of shadow enhances simulacrum.

Hmm?

...

Ah, it's not [Shadow] spells in general, it's a specific list. Hmm. That's annoying. Ah well. Still. What can we do to improve it?


I can't see any way of making it more real, all I can think of is giving it magic items and persistent buffs to give it similar stats to the original creature.
Looking for things like BAB and class features out of the simulacrum. Simple numeric bonuses aren't going to be overly useful.

150% real shadow spells is a pretty well-known build, isn't it? There's a prestige class in Underdark and something in... Races of Stone, I think? Not too sure.
Let's see... Races of Stone... probably referring to the ShadowCraft Mage, which... has the same basic wording as the Plane of Shadow on the "Powerful Shadow Magic" section (specifies a short list of spells).

Underdark... referencing Shadowcaster? Checking... same problem; references Shadow Conjouration and Shadow Evocation spells.

[TuggyNE]

Let's see... Races of Stone... probably referring to the ShadowCraft Mage, which... has the same basic wording as the Plane of Shadow on the "Powerful Shadow Magic" section (specifies a short list of spells).

Suggestion: since cheese is obviously on the table, try to work out a way by which you can imitate a 150% real simulacrum with SCM. Probably gonna have to go through miracle first, but not quite sure.

[rockdeworld]

Suggestion: since cheese is obviously on the table, try to work out a way by which you can imitate a 150% real simulacrum with SCM. Probably gonna have to go through miracle first, but not quite sure.
According to Shadow Evocation Conjuration, then, the simulacrum would have 150%: hit points, damage, chance to use special abilities that do not deal lethal damage, and AC bonus.

A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it’s recognized as shadowy). It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses. Against a creature that recognizes it as a shadow creature, however, the shadow creature’s damage is one-fifth (20%) normal, and all special abilities that do not deal lethal damage are only 20% likely to work. (Roll for each use and each affected character separately.) Furthermore, the shadow creature’s AC bonuses are one-fifth as large.

[Talionis]

Are you aware of the Wu Jen spell Body Outside Body? Complete Arcane.

Add Archmage and turn Body Outside Body into a Spell Like Ability.

Now all Clones can make more clones.

[Jack_Simth]

According to Shadow Evocation Conjuration, then, the simulacrum would have 150%: hit points, damage, chance to use special abilities that do not deal lethal damage, and AC bonus.Nah, Shadow Conjouration (nor the big brothers) can't duplicate Illusion spells, so we can't do it directly; however:

Suggestion: since cheese is obviously on the table, try to work out a way by which you can imitate a 150% real simulacrum with SCM. Probably gonna have to go through miracle first, but not quite sure.
Ah, the killer gnome trick to duplicate Miracle at 150+ % reality... but it'd be the Miracle that's 150% real, which is duplicating something that makes a 50% real, for a probable net of 75% real (or 100%, depending on how you handle D&D maths) if people make the save (50% real otherwise).

...

OK, I think I have a headache on contemplating what that implies. If you see through the disguise, then the simulacrum knows more than if you don't.


Are you aware of the Wu Jen spell Body Outside Body? Complete Arcane.

Add Archmage and turn Body Outside Body into a Spell Like Ability.

Now all Clones can make more clones.
Would have to be made (Su), due to part of the definition of spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities): "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell" - most the time, this just means that critters like the Marilith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith) can use their at-will spell-like Blade Barrier through their at-will spell like Project Image (note: This gets very, very devastating in the right terrain, especially combined with the Greater Teleport; a lot of intersections, with the intersections dimly lit but the hallways not - set the intersections 120 feet apart (Maralith's True Seeing range) set the Maralith... somewhere... between intersections, and have the Maralith Project an Image to one of the intersections; Maralith switches around perspective regularly, and teleports to a different hallway if the party starts to figure it out. If you have a large grid, you can basically murder your party with organized tactics and terrain advantage... it's a good thing Maraliths are Chaotic and "love physical combat and never pass up an opportunity to fight" otherwise that sort of murder could happen a LOT more often), but it also means that things that directly prevent you from using spells also prevent you from using spell-like abilities.

[rockdeworld]

OK, I think I have a headache on contemplating what that implies. If you see through the disguise, then the simulacrum knows more than if you don't.
The spell just says "at full strength", not "normal strength", and in this case full strength is 150% normal, so it has the same strength whether you see through it or not.

[Talionis]

Would have to be made (Su), due to part of the definition of spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities): "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell" - most the time, this just means that critters like the Marilith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith) can use their at-will spell-like Blade Barrier through their at-will spell like Project Image (note: This gets very, very devastating in the right terrain, especially combined with the Greater Teleport; a lot of intersections, with the intersections dimly lit but the hallways not - set the intersections 120 feet apart (Maralith's True Seeing range) set the Maralith... somewhere... between intersections, and have the Maralith Project an Image to one of the intersections; Maralith switches around perspective regularly, and teleports to a different hallway if the party starts to figure it out. If you have a large grid, you can basically murder your party with organized tactics and terrain advantage... it's a good thing Maraliths are Chaotic and "love physical combat and never pass up an opportunity to fight" otherwise that sort of murder could happen a LOT more often), but it also means that things that directly prevent you from using spells also prevent you from using spell-like abilities.

You are the first to tell me this didn't work. Most people interprete the rule to only be for spells.

[Nettlekid]

About the Body Outside Body thing, it doesn't say "loses spellcasting" or anything to that effect, it says "cannot cast spells". And you don't case spell-like abilities, you just use them. One of the things which quite distinctly separates SLAs from spells is the lack of casting, and the troublesome components that go with it. So I think using SLAs with Body Outside Body is a legitimate Shadow Clone Jutsu Army maneuver.

[ZeroNumerous]

Would have to be made (Su), due to part of the definition of spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities): "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell" ...

As others have pointed out: An SLA is not a spell, and Body Outside Body expressly states "spells".

[Jack_Simth]

As others have pointed out: An SLA is not a spell, and Body Outside Body expressly states "spells".
However, getting suppressed by Body Outside Body is not on the list of ways an SLA does not function as a spell. So getting suppressed by Body Outside Body is thus one of the ways an SLA does function as a spell. Thus it's suppressed. This seems pretty straightforward to me. If you had a spell that made red things invisible, and cast it on a magical blue object which (due to an enchantment) was treated as red for any time colour mattered, would you expect the magical blue object to become invisible?

Edit: It is, however, a pretty good solution for the contingency I'm after. Hmm. Does Body Outside Body also duplicate the spells currently in effect on you onto your duplicates because they are "indistinguishable duplicates of you," or does it *not* duplicate the spells currently in effect on your duplicated because they are not on the list of things it specifically duplicates? Hmm. Off to see if the Q&A (by RAW) thread is still open, I guess.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Even if your Dm allows clones to use BoB as an SLA it's not all that great if you're a squishy arcane caster.
It's a lot more useful if you can get some martial ability.
Arcane Hierophant works nicely since a lot of Wild Shape forms work fine without buffs or magic gear, but you pay for it either with the sub-par Wu Jen spell list
or the hoops you have to jump through to get in on the Wizard list, in addition to the general weakening of your spellcasting by theurging.

As for duplicating spells, it's not spelled out but i'd rule it as a no.

You can get around the "kills original" aspect of Ice Assassin by using Mindrape (BoVD). The cost is more prohibitive imo, especially since you can't heal them normally.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ice assassin might also be viable by just having someone res you after it kills you. The spell doesn't say how it behaves after it kills you, but it can easily be read to mean that you don't have to stay dead.

Plus, the spell first says "all-consuming need" and then gives you absolute authority over it; you can command your copy to never kill you, and it won't. It will be an extremely frustrated ice assassin, but, eh, tough beans.

Body out of body is possibly the least balanced thing I've ever read. It probably doesn't exist in my setting, or if it does I'll have to change the name to that infinite spells trick.

EDIT: Ice assassin and simulacra are both most useful for out of combat exploits, which WotC seems to have massively underestimated the usefulness of. Copy yourself to do crafting. Copy yourself to do research. Copy yourself to run a business. Copy yourself to let your real self have a social life. Copy yourself to freak the hell out of normal people. Copy yourself to turn out-of-combat action economy into a joke. Copy yourself to break economy.

And that's just copying oneself. Copying other people can be even less balanced.

Access to Epic Spellcasting or psionics can probably manage the OP's original intent. I'm seeing some kind of mind swap chain shenanigans here. The key thing to think of is that the body of the simulacrum is terrible. The mind of the simulacrum, however, is pretty nice, if static.

[Jack_Simth]

Even if your Dm allows clones to use BoB as an SLA it's not all that great if you're a squishy arcane caster.
It's a lot more useful if you can get some martial ability.
It's a 7th level spell. Cleric-17 can get it via Miracle.


As for duplicating spells, it's not spelled out but i'd rule it as a no.

So if a Wu-Jen casts Giant Size (or any other spell that has an associated obvious effect, such as Fiery Eyes, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Blur, or anything else with an obvious effect), and then Body Outside Body, anyone watching knows exactly who the original is by way of size (or other obvious effect), which negates the "indistinguishable" clause of Body Outside Body.

You can get around the "kills original" aspect of Ice Assassin by using Mindrape (BoVD). The cost is more prohibitive imo, especially since you can't heal them normally.
Are you sure? Which takes precedence: The effect that lets you specify a things personality, or the effect that gives an all-consuming need to destroy you? Are you certain it won't get out of your grasp before you have the option to give the appropriate order (it knows everything you do, after all, which includes your planned orders), and are you sure it can't then figure out a way to prevent you from giving it orders?

Ice assassin might also be viable by just having someone res you after it kills you. The spell doesn't say how it behaves after it kills you, but it can easily be read to mean that you don't have to stay dead.

Plus, the spell first says "all-consuming need" and then gives you absolute authority over it; you can command your copy to never kill you, and it won't. It will be an extremely frustrated ice assassin, but, eh, tough beans.

... can you actually name a way to phrase that which cannot be worked around to your detriment by someone who has an all consuming need to get you killed? Are you certain you can land the command before it gets away? Remember, to pull this off, you have to be a 9th level caster. And it's got an initiative score comperable to yours - it probably has close to a 50/50 chance of going first and Plane Shifting or Teleporting out of range so it can arrange for a more permanent 'fix' for it's liability.


Body out of body is possibly the least balanced thing I've ever read. It probably doesn't exist in my setting, or if it does I'll have to change the name to that infinite spells trick.
It's not an infinite spells trick, as the effect doesn't let your duplicates cast spells. Use the interpretation that spell-like abilities function just like spells do for that purpose, and it takes a LOT of work to get infinite spells out of it.


EDIT:

EDIT: Ice assassin and simulacra are both most useful for out of combat exploits, which WotC seems to have massively underestimated the usefulness of. Copy yourself to do crafting. Copy yourself to do research. Copy yourself to run a business. Copy yourself to let your real self have a social life. Copy yourself to freak the hell out of normal people. Copy yourself to turn out-of-combat action economy into a joke. Copy yourself to break economy.

And that's just copying oneself. Copying other people can be even less balanced.
The catch, of course, is that both Simulacrum and Ice Assasin have some costs associated with them that normally prevent spamming - 100 xp/hit die of the final critter (minimum 1000 xp) and 100 gp/hit die of the final critter for simulacrum, a flat 20,000 gp and 5,000 xp for Ice Assasin. Sure, the epic Wizard with Ignore Material Components and a Rod of Excellent Magic can copy himself for free once a day (up to 20 hit dice), but without some hefty cheddar you're only going to have a handful of them most the time.


Access to Epic Spellcasting or psionics can probably manage the OP's original intent. I'm seeing some kind of mind swap chain shenanigans here. The key thing to think of is that the body of the simulacrum is terrible. The mind of the simulacrum, however, is pretty nice, if static.
The big problem with Chaining True Mind Switch or some such is that you don't inherently have any control over your other selves.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Body out of body is possibly the least balanced thing I've ever read. It probably doesn't exist in my setting, or if it does I'll have to change the name to that infinite spells trick.


As written, it's basically "spend a 7th level slot to get CL/5 Wu Jen without spells or magical gear". Since it only lasts for a minute and a Wu Jen without spells or gear is pretty much a commoner that's actually kind of crappy.

It's only when you stack it with stuff like Incantatrix (for persisting) and/or powerful (Su) abilities that it gets out of hand. Even then you need gestalt to really push it to a point where it's a clearly superior combat option since 1/4 of the creators hp isn't all that much on a d4 HD.

Edit:
So if a Wu-Jen casts Giant Size (or any other spell that has an associated obvious effect, such as Fiery Eyes, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Blur, or anything else with an obvious effect), and then Body Outside Body, anyone watching knows exactly who the original is by way of size (or other obvious effect), which negates the "indistinguishable" clause of Body Outside Body.

Imo that really exceeds the parameters of the spell. If you want to use the duplicates to confuse your enemies it's up to you not to cast stuff that reveals you. Besides, anyone with detect magic up can clearly see who the original is just by the fact that the duplicates don't have magic gear.
I would neither allow that interpretation as a Dm nor argue for it as a player since BoB is useful enough as it is with a little effort (and kind of overpowered with your interpretation), but since it's not spelled out you'll have to decide for yourself how you handle it.

[Phelix-Mu]

... can you actually name a way to phrase that which cannot be worked around to your detriment by someone who has an all consuming need to get you killed? Are you certain you can land the command before it gets away? Remember, to pull this off, you have to be a 9th level caster. And it's got an initiative score comperable to yours - it probably has close to a 50/50 chance of going first and Plane Shifting or Teleporting out of range so it can arrange for a more permanent 'fix' for it's liability.

Hmm, the phrasing might be problematic. Pretty sure you can arrange to create the thing without spells prepared, however, so I don't think it's quite so easy for it just to run away. You seem much more aware of complications, though, and also of the level of blowback you might get in a specific campaign, so if you think it's too risky, you're probably right.

You can also probably control just what of your knowledge the ice assassin knows via a combo of Craft Contingent Spell/contingency and programmed amnesia or the like. Block your own memories long enough to make the ice assassin, then have the block removed by some time-delayed effect.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Hmm, the phrasing might be problematic. Pretty sure you can arrange to create the thing without spells prepared, however, so I don't think it's quite so easy for it just to run away. You seem much more aware of complications, though, and also of the level of blowback you might get in a specific campaign, so if you think it's too risky, you're probably right.

You can also probably control just what of your knowledge the ice assassin knows via a combo of Craft Contingent Spell/contingency and programmed amnesia or the like. Block your own memories long enough to make the ice assassin, then have the block removed by some time-delayed effect.

It's not that much of a problem since the Ice Assassin doesn't have any gear or buffs up when you create it. You have constant telepathic contact with it, just order it to stand down and then deal with the urge to kill you in a more permanent manner.

[unseenmage]

Y'know, there IS a spell that creates a copy of you without that pesky 1/2 HD clause.

Mirror Walking from Manual of the Planes.

Combine it with Mindrape/Programmed Amnesia and you're good to go.

The only trip up is that the copy ceases to exist if it leaves the plane of mirrors without killing you first.

I can't remember but isn't there a magic necklace or something that makes it so extraplanar creatures are always considered to be on their home plane...?

Edit: I actually plan to try using this method with my Thrallherd character in a few levels.
Figure I'll send some genuinely unknowing thralls into the mirror until one of them succeeds in defeating his doppleganger.
Then repeat the process until the population of my dudes far outweighs the possibility for a single new doppelganger to win.

Maybe even build a magic trap that subdues and reprograms doppelgangers for me automaically. Then Simulacrum them too, why not.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's Rod of the Embassy from Arms & Equipment Guide.

The problem is that the Plane of Mirrors is a variant plane and very unlikely to be in a game unless the Dm plans to use it. It's questionable if you can leave even with a relevant item and they vanish when the original leaves the mirror plane without slaying them. Also, your Mirror-Self is explicitly out to kill you and unlike an Ice Assassin it has the same gear you do and no telepathic connection and loyalty for easy subdual.

Still, a good find. Didn't think of that one.

[Phelix-Mu]

There's actually various support for the Plane of Mirrors, somewhat strange for a variant. There is a whole race of critters from there in Fiend Folio, IIRC, (pretty cool, too), and I've also heard talk of mirror mephits from...was it Expedition to the Demonweb Pits?

[Talionis]

Even if your Dm allows clones to use BoB as an SLA it's not all that great if you're a squishy arcane caster.
It's a lot more useful if you can get some martial ability.
Arcane Hierophant works nicely since a lot of Wild Shape forms work fine without buffs or magic gear, but you pay for it either with the sub-par Wu Jen spell list
or the hoops... The cost is more prohibitive imo, especially since you can't heal them normally.
I've seen a lot of Jade Phoenix Mage Builds running Wu Jen to get Body Outside Body, not only can the clones use all the maneuvers, if you can initiate as level 8 you can pick up the stance immortal fortitude to help keep you alive. There is also a second Wu Jen spell that basically makes you indestructible for a short time then you die, but the JPM has that explosion technique that can save you from the death effect.

This is a fun build for ridiculous high level campaigns, but I wouldn't suggest it for most campaigns.

[unseenmage]

Rod of Embassy is brilliant. Thank you, couldn't for the life of me remember where I'd read that effect.

So now I can build my Ambrosia den equipped with wondrous magic item beds, pillows, and hookahs of the Distilled Joy spell. This generates obscene amounts of crafting xp from the general populous of your local port city.

The doors to this establishment will be either a) magic traps of repeating Simulacrum or b) Mirror Walking/Ice Assassin + Mindrape/Programmed Amnesia.

That or just build the place ON the plane of mirrors and put the Simulacrum traps at each doorway.


Which begs the question... what happens when an Ice Assassin/Simulacrum/mirror double walks through the Simulacrum trapped doorway?

Edit: As the DM how long do you let a city equipped with Doorways of Simulacrum and a steadily growing population of Simulacrum slaves/servants go before you unleash fun on it.

[Qwertystop]

Tell the Ice Assassin "Ignore your urge to kill me".

There, no loopholes. Anything it would do to try to kill you (or get you killed by someone else, or cause you to "accidentally" die of "natural causes" or "mysterious circumstances" or stumbling near a cliff, or anything else), it would do because it had that urge to kill you. Now, it's ignoring that, so it won't.

Or "act as though you did not want to kill me".
Or "you know what I was planning to have you do, do that", where your plan obviously includes not dying.
Or "do only what I order you to do".

Basically, anything that either takes the desire to kill you or gives it a specific list of what it is allowed to do, instead of forbidding specifics (as long as the list is well-designed), has no loopholes.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Tell the Ice Assassin "Ignore your urge to kill me". There, no loopholes.

The problem is at a deeper level: As written in the spell description, an ice assassin has two absolute traits – the need to kill its original and obedience to its creator.

If the creator and the original are the same person, you create an “unstoppable force meets immovable object” type of situation. I’d argue that, by RAW, the outcome is undefined. (And there is no help from RAI, because clearly casters cloning themselves weren’t thought about when the spell was developed.)

For the player, this means that you cannot be sure what happens. For the DM it means that there is opportunity for fun. If it were my campaign, the command override might seem to work… for a while, until the ice assassin is in a position to have a good chance of killing the caster. (Remember, the assassin has the original’s intelligence, which is usually substantial in high-level casters, and knowledge.)

[Phelix-Mu]

(And there is no help from RAI, because clearly casters cloning themselves weren’t thought about when the spell was developed.)


Which simply means that the writers weren't thinking very hard. It's a spell that makes a copy of ANYTHING. Extra me, please.

But, more seriously, the problem is that problems with ice assassin are not too hard to get around.

1.) It has the urge to kill the original. Fine, arrange contingent resurrection flavor of the day and let it kill you. It killed you. Compulsion resolved. Fulfillment of a compulsion could be rationally be argued to allow the ice assassin to get over it's fixation. Only the stats, not the mental state, of the ice assassin is described as static. This still allows DMs wiggle room.

2.) Worried about your ice assassin of yourself being a genius high-level spellcaster? Arrange to have the ice assassin crafted during a period during which your Intelligence is lowered. Gonna need some complex tricks here, but I don't see it as impossible to do this, either. Then, once you have your retarded ice assassin, use items or temporary bonuses to boost it's stats high enough to do stuff only when you want it to.

3.) Probably the best idea is to somehow erroneously convince the first ice assassin that it can kill you via casting it's own ice assassin spell on itself. Or just order it to do so. Help the second ice assassin kill the first. I'm away from book, so I can't verify if there is some clause to prevent this, but I'm guessing the answer is no. Now the second ice assassin killed its target, and you are free to use Diplomacy to interact with your duplicate's duplicate in the way that any competent high-level character does with anyone they really want to manipulate. It shares your memories, goals, and personality now that it's kill-lust has been sated, so convincing it to cooperate shouldn't be hard.

The more I think about it, this spell needs a full rewrite to avoid a ban in my world.

Utility is impaired if the DM introduces epic magic, which makes full on clones and copies a reality at little cost and little-to-no restriction.

[Evolved Shrimp]

But, more seriously, the problem is that problems with ice assassin are not too hard to get around.

Yes, you can try all kinds of things (and creating a second-order ice assassins is pretty clever), but I think they do not solve the fundamental issue, i.e., you’re trying to do something which is not covered in the rules. (E.g., Does an ice assassin have the xp needed to create another one? Unclear, though possible.)

It seems to me that all of the Ice Assassin shenanigans take you into house rules territory: Whether they work as proposed must be an individual DM decision because the official rules are simply not clear or extensive enough.

[Jack_Simth]

The problem is at a deeper level: As written in the spell description, an ice assassin has two absolute traits – the need to kill its original and obedience to its creator.

If the creator and the original are the same person, you create an “unstoppable force meets immovable object” type of situation. I’d argue that, by RAW, the outcome is undefined. (And there is no help from RAI, because clearly casters cloning themselves weren’t thought about when the spell was developed.)
Yeah... and I figured out a way around my dilemma: The share spells clause of Ice Assasin. It can pretty much act as a famliar, as long as it stays nearby, so I can clone something like The Tarrasque, buff it to high heaven, and be fine.

[Muggins]

Copy yourself to do crafting. Copy yourself to do research. Copy yourself to run a business. Copy yourself to let your real self have a social life. Copy yourself to freak the hell out of normal people. Copy yourself to turn out-of-combat action economy into a joke. Copy yourself to break economy.
Copy yourself so that your copy can feel the same desire to copy itself that you did, leading to an exponentially increasing number of Ice Assassins who are subservient to other Ice Assassins.

In which case, you can simply kill the first Ice Assassin and befriend any following Ice Assassins, who will likely do the same since they're following the same train of thought you are. Just because it doesn't have to follow your commands doesn't mean you can't get along with your own clone.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes, you can try all kinds of things (and creating a second-order ice assassins is pretty clever), but I think they do not solve the fundamental issue, i.e., you’re trying to do something which is not covered in the rules. (E.g., Does an ice assassin have the xp needed to create another one? Unclear, though possible.)

It seems to me that all of the Ice Assassin shenanigans take you into house rules territory: Whether they work as proposed must be an individual DM decision because the official rules are simply not clear or extensive enough.

[Emphasis mine.]

Oh, I should explain. My current DM has removed experience points from the game and substituted expensive material components (5gp/1xp) for spells and such. The intent is so he can level everyone up in-sync with plot events instead of based on our kill rate. It's a pretty epically epic epic campaign, it's soaking up a lot of my brain-space, and I seem to be forgetting how the rules normally work.:smallcool: [<--shades to hide the bloodshot eyes :smallwink:]

That said, there are items that substitute for experience I think (not sure if they work for spells). Some DM also allow donation of experience to another person's crafting/casting effort, but this isn't very reliable.

Anyway, like I said, tricks. If you DM has system mastery >= yours, or if the DM likes to take these opportunities as invitations to spring the unexpected, then it's obviously a tactic to avoid.

Plus, I think I happened upon a better tactic involving deepspawn and mind swap. Magic makes an absurd amount of things possible.

Like, couldn't you:

Simulacrum yourself.

Mind swap with your simulacrum.

Ice assassin from the simulacrum.

Mind swap back to original body.

Let ice assassin kill the simulacrum.

Hmm. A cloned body and transferring into it would work better. Otherwise the ice assassin has low HD (as per the simulacrum), even if you manage to get full spellcasting into it.

Anyway, there is definitely more straight up utility in copying other critters. I just like exploring unorthodox spell usage.:smallsmile:

[Jack_Simth]

Like, couldn't you:

Simulacrum yourself.

Mind swap with your simulacrum.

Ice assassin from the simulacrum.

Mind swap back to original body.

Let ice assassin kill the simulacrum.
Warning: There's a couple of fuzzy things in here your DM could use to make this a case of epic fail.

See, nothing says that the "Absolute control" follows your mind/soul, rather than your body. So if it does follow your body... you just put your simulacrum in charge of you. And I don't think it wants to die. This may not do what you want.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, yeah, I had thought of that. I was thinking you could maybe lock your simulacrum's mind out of control of your body while you are swapped. Probably a psionic power for that...maybe you could make it contingent on when your mind leaves your body. Brain lock? Is that what I'm thinking of?

In any case, if this process did reveal that control stays with the body (odd for the body to have control over spell functionality, since the body has no spellcasting ability after one's mind/soul leaves it), then that is also useful info. Now you can maybe leave your body and still concentrate on spells with your body! I like data.

Do all of this with a backup clone elsewhere and some kind of kill spell safeguard on everyone that you can trigger if something goes wrong. You can always do this without spells prepared or something, so that the copies don't have access to spellcasting.