Fabricate, the best core blast spell?

[TheG]

Reference:

Fabricate
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: See text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet [ 270 dmdM3] (or 1 cubic foot [ 27 dmdM3] ) of material to be affected by the spell.

Material Component
The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.




Craft (Int)
Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. (...)
Check
The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type. The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created. The DC, your check results, and the price of the item determine how long it takes to make a particular item . The item’s finished price also determines the cost of raw materials.
(...)
Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
(...)


Table: Special Substances and Items
Goods Cost Weight
Acid (flask) 10 gp 1 lb (0,5 kg) .
Alchemist’s fire (flask) 20 gp 1 lb.
Antitoxin (vial) 50 gp —
Everburning torch 110 gp 1 lb.
Holy water (flask) 25 gp 1 lb.
Smokestick 20 gp ½ lb.
Sunrod 2 gp 1 lb.
Tanglefoot bag 50 gp 4 lb.
Thunderstone 30 gp 1 lb.
Tindertwig 1 gp —

As u can already immagine the idea is trow severl hundreds of d6 acid damage on target. without saves, spell resistance or Attack check.

An acid flask weighs 0,5kg by player's handbook, omitting flask's weight and assuming that acid weighs as water 1 acid dose is 0,5Lt and measures 0,5 dM3

So, 1 Acid dose = = 0,5 dM3 = 1d6 damage, and 1,5Mt cube (basic unit for dnd) has 3,375 M3 volume that equals 3375 dM3, so we don't have any space restriction to make fall a floating acid cube (due it's trasmutation and not cojuration) on the head of our enemies.

Fabricates, produces up to dmdM3 /Level /Round , so we don't have also any quantity restriction (at least) for production of our mega acid splash.
The problem is having so much raw materials as material component of the spell.

"craft" skill says that raw material price for any craftable item is 1/3 of his price, so for our acid flask amounts at 3,33gp > 3gp .... giving you a spell that deals 1d6 damage every 3 gp invested.. maxout > 270d6 on 810 gp? INSANE!!

But a DM can say that the material to be transmuted has to be already in place when trasmuted (also if the spell description don't say so)..Then we need a floating mass of herbs over the head of op. before blast... or not?

Maybe crafting item rules can help us. The target will be always an area of 270dm3/lv ... full of air, 'cose material component isn't needed for spell cast from item.

Death from Above
Spell Trigger - Fabricate SL 5 CL 9 - 5x9x750 = 33750gp + Material component price: (3mo x 30[it's enough?])x50 = 4500gp > 38250gp for 50 30d6 acid charges No save - No SR - No Attack roll.. and bypasses Antimagic fields...Core only build ...Orb Spells? outdated.

... Same thing it's doable with poisons ... stick in some dose of Dragon Bile [Dragon bile Contact DC 26 3d6 Str 1,500 gp], more expensive but fun!

[Yerltvachovicic]

Lava deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round. Ergo -> no amount of thrown acid should deal more damage than full immersion in acid/lava.

I think some time ago there was similiar thread, about Portable Hole and acid.

[Flickerdart]

Fabricate transforms stuff into other stuff; it doesn't displace it. You're free to bring along a cart full of alchemical reagents and then fabricating them into acid in combat, but they're still in the cart. Trying to get around that by using an item doesn't work, because fabricate target and material component are one and the same. If you don't have anything to transform, you don't get anything in return. Trying to transform air into acid would be using the air as a material component; in other words, a violation of the spell's rules, because air and acid are not "of the same material".

[Deaxsa]

wouldn't this part:

You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.
imply that it's basically just an accelerated craft check?

and wouldn't the caster also need the relevant craft skill?(acid/poison probably requires a high degree of workmanship, i mean have you read the poison making rules?)

and you would also need to find a way to launch it (in your case, i see, you have it falling on the enemy, that would work).

what about the material component? not only does it need to be the same type of, stuff, it also needs to be the same value. does this mean that you pay the "one third" value, or the whole value?

[Scow2]

wouldn't this part:

imply that it's basically just an accelerated craft check?

and wouldn't the caster also need the relevant craft skill?(acid/poison probably requires a high degree of workmanship, i mean have you read the poison making rules?)

and you would also need to find a way to launch it (in your case, i see, you have it falling on the enemy, that would work).

what about the material component? not only does it need to be the same type of, stuff, it also needs to be the same value. does this mean that you pay the "one third" value, or the whole value?

The one-third value, due to that being the cost of the materials

[TheG]

Fabricate transforms stuff into other stuff; it doesn't displace it. You're free to bring along a cart full of alchemical reagents and then fabricating them into acid in combat, but they're still in the cart. Trying to get around that by using an item doesn't work, because fabricate target and material component are one and the same. If you don't have anything to transform, you don't get anything in return. Trying to transform air into acid would be using the air as a material component; in other words, a violation of the spell's rules, because air and acid are not "of the same material".

Targeting air for the spell cast form the object 'cose the material cost was already paid and the spell don't need anymore. You don't trasmute air, you simply target the area where acid will spawn (i think).

however this is the complete version of the spell from player's handbook. it talk about fabricating bridges, and in my imagination the spell put the bridge in place trasmutating raw timber from one cliff, but it's just interpretation.


Fabricate
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: See text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Thus, you can fabricate a wooden bridge from a clump of tress, a rope from a patch of hemp, clothes from flax or wool, and so forth. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship (jewelry, swords, glass, crystal, and the like). Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be
affected by the spell. Material Component: The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.


wouldn't this part:

imply that it's basically just an accelerated craft check?

and wouldn't the caster also need the relevant craft skill?(acid/poison probably requires a high degree of workmanship, i mean have you read the poison making rules?)

and you would also need to find a way to launch it (in your case, i see, you have it falling on the enemy, that would work).

what about the material component? not only does it need to be the same type of, stuff, it also needs to be the same value. does this mean that you pay the "one third" value, or the whole value?

rule for raw material it's 1/3 value as written. do you have any suggestion to launch "the bomb" just in case?

Craft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) dc for making acid is 15.. quite simple.

[Flickerdart]

Targeting air for the spell cast form the object 'cose the material cost was already paid and the spell don't need anymore. You don't trasmute air, you simply target the area where acid will spawn (i think).

The spell is a transmutation spell. There's no "cost" to be paid - it turns one present substance into another.

[Deaxsa]

The spell is a transmutation spell. There's no "cost" to be paid - it turns one present substance into another.

in other words, it's an accelerated craft. here is my question though: is this a (hugely) better version of stone/wood shape? i mean, just by volume, never mind by the quatity of materials you can now change, it's better.

edit: another question: at what point can must start to make craft checks? can you make them untrained? what happens if you fail?

[Than]

I'd rule you have to make a craft check for anything requiring a DC 15 and up. "A high degree of craftsmanship" as the spell calls it.

Craft can be used untrained per the SRD. Exception being using craft to repair a warforged per Eberron errata.

I'd also rule normal check failure rules from the SRD craft skill description.

[TheG]

The spell is a transmutation spell. There's no "cost" to be paid - it turns one present substance into another.

The spell has ha material component (the raw material) eschewed by the item

ok, assuming Fabricate frizzles. Other options? Yes, Minor Creation.

But how do we speed up the 10minute casting time?

a. Shadow Conjuration by a shadocraft mage @30% reality.. meh

b. maybe a use-activated object.

Wizard Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a)

Unless stated otherwise (and as stated in the Dungeon Master's Guide), activating a use-activated item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. For example, a magic bow requires you to make a ranged attack, so you provoke an attack of opportunity when you make the ranged attack.

If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time, use activation is not an action at all.

"If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action" : so standard action to activate a Minor creation for (as suggested) Black lotus extract Contact DC 20 3d6 Con/3d6 Con or simply Acid or Alchemist fire

Standing @Physical Description of potions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm) and minor creation description, the spell creates 957,51 ounces of potion (1 dose: 1 ounce) / caster level

Standing on my assumpion on acid flask
An acid flask weighs 0,5kg by player's handbook, omitting flask's weight and assuming that acid weighs as water 1 acid dose is 0,5Lt and measures 0,5 dM3 (sorry for using decimal) spell creates 13.5 doses/caster level

In any case the quantity is absud.

Now, does the surface of head, shoulders, arms, legs, torso and whaterver qualificate as "open location on a surface capable of supporting it." (rules of conjuration) ?

I think the only limitation it could have is 1min recharge time between launches (the item pre-charge the spell)

[Flickerdart]

The spell has ha material component (the raw material) eschewed by the item

ok, assuming Fabricate frizzles. Other options? Yes, Minor Creation.

But how do we speed up the 10minute casting time?

a. Shadow Conjuration by a shadocraft mage @30% reality.. meh

b. maybe a use-activated object.

Minor Creation has this caveat: Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail. So no go.

[kiryoku]

Though in a cave he could craft boulders to fall on their heads or in dungeons of stone. If hes in a mine he could make those little spiked things you drop on the floor fall out of a overhead iron vein. He could make stone spears drop from the ceiling of high caves. He could make a tree into a giant spiked club that then falls over as the base is made separate from the top half. I think those things would be okay. Thats up to a DM but I don't see it as unreasonable it says you craft it. IT doesn't say you can't craft weapons that then fall out of the air onto them. But it would be utterly useless in a open field. Now in a open rock quarry you could maybe make a cage around them. all of these are items. Now you can't make a wall as that is not a Item. you can't make them form off in the distance you can only make due with what your given. I mean don't get me wrong the spell is amazing if you have been taken captive. But its uses are very very situational.

[Analytica]

Arent't there Major Creation psionic cheese strategies that rely on this, though? Using it to create if not acid then organic poison?

We could also go into real-world chemistry and claim that "acids" are very much the same "type" as air thanks to all the oxygen and hydrogen present, but that just gets silly...

[TheG]

Minor Creation has this caveat: Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail. So no go.

i'm not going to use what minor creation does as a material component of any spell. I'm going to use it to dissolve people in acid! (and other useful thing that doesn't contemplate death)

[Curmudgeon]

You can't do it!

An acid flask can't be created via Fabricate: it's two materials (flask, and acid) and the spell can only work with one material. Acid in a flask costs 10 gp. and has a weight of 1 lb., as you specified. An empty flask has a listed cost of 3 cp and weight of 1½ lb. Thus attempting to craft one flask's worth of acid (worth 9 gp, 9 sp, 7 cp) can only create -½ lb., and attempting to craft multiple flasks' worth will produce bigger negative numbers.

Success is impossible.

[Deaxsa]

You can't do it!

An acid flask can't be created via Fabricate: it's two materials (flask, and acid) and the spell can only work with one material. Acid in a flask costs 10 gp. and has a weight of 1 lb., as you specified. An empty flask has a listed cost of 3 cp and weight of 1½ lb. Thus attempting to craft one flask's worth of acid (worth 9 gp, 9 sp, 7 cp) can only create -½ lb., and attempting to craft multiple flasks' worth will produce bigger negative numbers.

Success is impossible.

if you go by the weight of the acid. however, the volume says something different entirely. in other words, you make the acid, and it just floats upwards :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

i'm not going to use what minor creation does as a material component of any spell. I'm going to use it to dissolve people in acid! (and other useful thing that doesn't contemplate death)

Just take the easy way out, and dump hundreds of doses of black lotus on someone. If it's not immune to poison/Con damage, it dies, full stop.

[The Grue]

If you wanted to be really pedantic, you could get carbonic acid(H2CO2) out of air and water. Possibly some more exotic acids from atmospheric trace gasses, though probably not a lot for a given volume.

EDIT: You could make hydrochloric acid(HCl) out of salt water.

[Flickerdart]

i'm not going to use what minor creation does as a material component of any spell. I'm going to use it to dissolve people in acid! (and other useful thing that doesn't contemplate death)
Minor Creation only creates plant-based matter. Acid is not.

[Malroth]

as well as nitric acid HNO3

[The Grue]

as well as nitric acid HNO3

Ooh, good one!

[Jeff the Green]

If you wanted to be really pedantic, you could get carbonic acid(H2CO2) out of air and water. Possibly some more exotic acids from atmospheric trace gasses, though probably not a lot for a given volume.

EDIT: You could make hydrochloric acid(HCl) out of salt water.

Also lye. Or hydrogen gas. Or chalk. Or sodium metal, which would instantly ignite.

[ericgrau]

Not enough though.

Most likely you'd want sulfur, nitric oxides (made from animal waste) and water to form sulfuric acid since this is a common and straightforward powerful acid. Which means the target should probably be immersed in water already into which you toss a large boulder of sulfur plus nitric oxides.

As said total immersion in acid does 10d6 damage per round by RAW. This is the general problem with infinite stacking of alchemical items. You can't assume that "splashed with acid" is a stackable condition, for that matter.

In a 5 foot cube there are 7480 pint flasks.

[The Grue]

Not enough though.

Most likely you'd want sulfur, nitric oxides (made from animal waste) and water to form sulfuric acid since this is a common and straightforward powerful acid. Which means the target should probably be immersed in water already into which you toss a large boulder of sulfur plus nitric oxides.

As said total immersion in acid does 10d6 damage per round by RAW. This is the general problem with infinite stacking of alchemical items. You can't assume that "splashed with acid" is a stackable condition, for that matter.

In a 5 foot cube there are 7480 pint flasks.

Take Fabricate in a sea-based campaign and Krakens will never bother you again.

[CyberThread]

oh YEAH OF LITTLE FAITH! Lets drop some reality in our fantasy game, that sounds like a full proof path to flame war! ((blue font color))


This is composition of air in percent by volume, at sea level at 15°C and 101325 Pa.
Nitrogen -- N2 -- 78.084%

Oxygen -- O2 -- 20.9476%

Argon -- Ar -- 0.934%

Carbon Dioxide -- CO2 -- 0.0314%

Neon -- Ne -- 0.001818%

Methane -- CH4 -- 0.0002%

Helium -- He -- 0.000524%

Krypton -- Kr -- 0.000114%

Hydrogen -- H2 -- 0.00005%

Xenon -- Xe -- 0.0000087%

Ozone -- O3 -- 0.000007%

Nitrogen Dioxide -- NO2 -- 0.000002%

Iodine -- I2 -- 0.000001%

Carbon Monoxide -- CO -- trace

Ammonia -- NH3 -- trace

Reference: CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, edited by David R. Lide, 1997.


So from what we have here, you have three options make some real fire sensitive gas. Make an entire small room unbreathable. Or acid rain.

[Jeff the Green]

oh YEAH OF LITTLE FAITH! Lets drop some reality in our fantasy game, that sounds like a full proof path to flame war! ((blue font color))



So from what we have here, you have three options make some real fire sensitive gas. Make an entire small room unbreathable. Or acid rain.

Or 2CO2 -> 2CO + O2

[Flickerdart]

I'm...not sure that's how it works. On Earth, air might have all those atoms in it, but in D&D? Air is air. Or even [Air]. No matter how you rearrange it, you don't get [Acid] which is a whole different descriptor.

[Jeff the Green]

I'm...not sure that's how it works. On Earth, air might have all those atoms in it, but in D&D? Air is air. Or even [Air]. No matter how you rearrange it, you don't get [Acid] which is a whole different descriptor.

Yes, but since you can craft acid flasks with Craft (alchemy), you can plainly turn !acid into acid.

[ericgrau]

Air quite simply isn't dense enough to supply substantial material, and carbon dioxide is less than 1% of it. Air is about 1/1000th the density of liquid.


Take Fabricate in a sea-based campaign and Krakens will never bother you again.

1/3rd the cost for material components? So 25k gp in sulfur and nitric oxide per 5 foot cube and you're good to go. Could work ok on epic dungeons when you poop money.

Assuming you can make more than 1 item with fabricate and that stone weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grimlock.htm) are ok then fabricate + telekinesis could deal some decent damage. 2d6 or so per caster level using size Large weapons. Takes 2 rounds but you could often prep the axes or other stone weapons ahead of time.

[Spuddles]

Minor Creation only creates plant-based matter. Acid is not.

We can get the following organic acids from plants:
Formic - caustic
Acetic - caustic
Propionic - caustic
Butyric -sickening smell, toxic
Valeric - sickening smell, irritating
Caproic
Dicarboxylic
Oxalic - toxic to ingest
Malonic
Succinic
Glutaric
Adipic
Tartaric
Citric
And of course the ribonucleic acids.

The first 3 acids listed there have an MSDS rating of 3 (out of 4) for their face melting properties. In concentrated forms, getting any on your skin would result in burns and dissolved flesh.

[Flickerdart]

We can get the following organic acids from plants:
Formic - caustic
Acetic - caustic
Propionic - caustic
Wikipedia indicates that some of these are formed by bacteria or animals, but makes no mention of plants. What plants are used to produce these acids?

[2xMachina]

Fabricate the land your enemy is standing on into Lava. Make it too large for them to jump out of the way.

[TuggyNE]

Fabricate the land your enemy is standing on into Lava. Make it too large for them to jump out of the way.

What's the Craft DC for lava, I wonder?

[Pickford]

You can't do it!

An acid flask can't be created via Fabricate: it's two materials (flask, and acid) and the spell can only work with one material. Acid in a flask costs 10 gp. and has a weight of 1 lb., as you specified. An empty flask has a listed cost of 3 cp and weight of 1½ lb. Thus attempting to craft one flask's worth of acid (worth 9 gp, 9 sp, 7 cp) can only create -½ lb., and attempting to craft multiple flasks' worth will produce bigger negative numbers.

Success is impossible.

Are you getting those numbers from Table 7-8? Because that would seem to list the weight of the 'acid' that fits into a flask. Not acid + flask. Look at the weight of antitoxin: It's listed as blank (i.e. nothing) for what would fit in a vial, but the vial is listed separately as weighing 1/10 lb.

Hence: A flask of acid in total weighs 2 1/2 lbs.

[JusticeZero]

We could also go into real-world chemistry and claim that "acids" are very much the same "type" as air thanks to all the oxygen and hydrogen present, but that just gets silly...
Especially since in most games I've run for the past several years, air has no atomic structure at all...

[Curmudgeon]

Are you getting those numbers from Table 7-8? Because that would seem to ...
Some people just don't understand my sense of humor. :smallamused:

[TuggyNE]

Some people just don't understand my sense of humor. :smallamused:

Wait, Curmudgeon has a sense of humor? :eek:

MY LIFE … IS A LIE.