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View Full Version : How broken would this feat be? Minor Training



qwertyu63
2013-05-03, 12:35 PM
Minor Training:
You have taken a bit of training in a class other then your own.
Prerequisites: Character level 3rd
Benefit: Select a base class in which you have no levels. Pick one class feature that class gets at level 1. You gain that class feature, and may use it as if you had one level in the class from which you got it. You may not select spellcasting (or any similar thing, such as manifesting or initiating) as a class feature via this feat.
Special: If the feature has a set number of uses from another feature (e.g. Inspire Courage pulling from Bardic Music, Cunning Knowledge pulling from Inspiration), you gain the number of uses you would get as if you had the feature it draws from at one level in the class. If that other feature grants other effects, you do not get those effects.
If you later take the class from which you have chosen a feature, you lose this feats benefits.
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new class feature.

Is this broken as hell, confusing or just kind of neat (which is what I was going for)? (I do realize it allows for some early entry tricks. I just don't care.)

Henlein_Kosh
2013-05-03, 01:02 PM
I like this.

I love the idea of dabbling in various tactics, and this gives me an other option than multiclassing.

Whether it's broken or not, probably depends on the classes available in any particular game, though you might however want to specify that it does not apply to class features from Prestige classes.

qwertyu63
2013-05-03, 01:07 PM
I like this.

I love the idea of dabbling in various tactics, and this gives me an other option than multiclassing.

Whether it's broken or not, probably depends on the classes available in any particular game, though you might however want to specify that it does not apply to class features from Prestige classes.

Ah, thank you for bringing this up. I meant that, and forgot to type it.

Eslin
2013-05-03, 01:09 PM
Honestly, I'd go through the classes and select abilities (not necessarily all from level one) to put on the list, rather than saying 'all of them'.

Animal companion is a lot stronger than trapfinding =P

Hanuman
2013-05-03, 01:44 PM
It's broken, but instances like this "can I trade a feat for X (Ex)?" when discussing with your DM are always nice work arounds... that being said imagine a level 1 rogue with +5D6 sneak attack >.>

Yitzi
2013-05-03, 01:53 PM
Animal companion is a lot stronger than trapfinding =P

I'm not so sure. A level 1 animal companion isn't that great (especially if you make a character level prerequisite for this feat, which you probably should), whereas Trapfinding could be quite useful for a ranger.

qwertyu63
2013-05-03, 01:56 PM
It's broken, but instances like this "can I trade a feat for X (Ex)?" when discussing with your DM are always nice work arounds... that being said imagine a level 1 rogue with +5D6 sneak attack >.>

Where are you getting 5d6? If you can, that is rather crazy, but I am curious how you are doing it.


I'm not so sure. A level 1 animal companion isn't that great (especially if you make a character level prerequisite for this feat, which you probably should), whereas Trapfinding could be quite useful for a ranger.

Level required... duh. Editing.

Silva Stormrage
2013-05-03, 03:17 PM
Hm, well there are a couple abilities that would be taken quite often, Marshals' auras, sneak attack, charnel touch, turn/rebuke undead etc. I think this is fairly balanced. Feats are rarer than class levels.

ironwizard
2013-05-03, 03:21 PM
Consider though: use this, take Turning. Opens DMM for all the other Divine Casters. Druid, Spirit Shaman, Shugenja. Are you ok with this? 'cause a DMM-ing Druid sounds just horrifying.

arguskos
2013-05-03, 03:29 PM
So, here's what you can get from this feat, based on a cursory examination of the base classes I think would matter:

Wizard/Sorcerer: Familiar
Cleric: Turn Undead
Druid: Animal Companion
Archivist: Dark Knowledge (tactics)
Artificer: Artificer knowledge, item creation (and craft reserve)
Binder: soul binding
Psion: psionics
ToB Classes: maneuvers
Dread Necromancer: charnel touch
Factotum: inspiration
Rogue: sneak attack
Barbarian: rage
Warlock: invocations, eldritch blast
Hexblade: curse
Spellthief: spell steal
Marshal: minor auras
Paladin: smite evil
Ranger: favored enemy, track
Bard: bardic music
Dragonfire Adept: breath weapon, invocations
Dragon Shaman: draconic aura
Knight: knight's challenge

Yeah, ok, that list? Preeeeetty crazy. I really don't think a feat that can give you Artificer item creation, Psionics, Invocations, Inspiration, infinite healing (via charnel touch+Tomb-Tainted Soul), ToB maneuvers, Invocations, a breath weapon, soul binding, and more besides is really balanced. No matter what you do, there is definitely going to be something this feat will allow that is brokenly abusable. I must recommend that you reexamine this feat (even though I do like the idea).

eftexar
2013-05-03, 03:50 PM
arguskos, I don't think you're keeping in mind that they don't scale for level at all. They are stuck at first level basically forever. And a few of them, such as maneuvers (and even smite evil I believe), can be gotten through feats anyway.

But the wording is a tad confusing and I think even a little too restricting. How about wording it like this:

Minor Training
Prerequisites: BaB +3
Select a single base class for which you have no levels within. You gain a single feature or your choice, provided by the first level of the class, within the following parameters:
If it has limited uses, it's uses are limited to those provided by a single level within that class
If it has a definite progression, such as sneak attack, you must take it multiple times to increase it's overall effectiveness.
Abilities that provide a bundle of features, such as an animal companion, a familiar, spellcasting, invocations, etc. only provide the benefits they would for a first level character.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time that you take this feat you may either select a new feature or increase a previous progressive feature, selected by this feat, by a single step. Bundled features may not be advanced in this way.
Note: If you later take the class from which you have chosen a feature, you may exchange this feats feature for a different feature.

This way you can progress other class features so they remain useful, but at a much slower rate, and as a plus the BaB limitation allows melee classes, which are generally weaker, to gain the feat quicker.

And providing first level spellcasting is viable since, even though you only have a caster level 1, there is a feat to increase your caster level by +4 in I think Complete Mage or Complete Arcane.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-05-03, 04:04 PM
Familiar-- The feat already exists, more-or-less, and you can't take Improved Familiar, so it's not that huge.
Turn Undead-- That one is... pretty useful, but mostly in conjunction with DMM cheese.
Animal Companion-- it doesn't level with you; no biggie.
Dark Knowledge (Tactics)-- preeeettttyy crap, to tell the truth.
Artificer Knowledge-- perfectly fine
Item Creation-- seems like a fair feat ability, honestly. Especially since it still needs UMD.
Craft Reserve-- A feat for 20 xp is a terrible bargin.
Charnel Touch-- Fine, unless you make yourself undead, I guess. Too slow to matter in battle; all it does is save you some CLW wands.
Inspiration-- This one is actually useless unless you take the feat a second time to get Cunning Insight or Knowledge... which is still a pretty crappy trade-off for one feat, much less two.
Sneak Attack-- fair, methinks
Rage-- This one is a pretty good deal. Not too good, I don't think, but it's pretty good.
Eldrich Blase-- An OK pick. A 1d6 ranged touch attack is... I guess useful? Maybe? To an E6 rogue or something?
Hexblade's Curse-- A feat for a 1/day, fairly weak ability?
Steal Spell-- you need to start with sneak attack, and can steal 1st level spells... fair.
Minor Auras-- OK, that's pretty good.
Smite Evil-- utterly useless
Track-- my god, a feat for a feat!
Favored Enemy-- Decent value for a feat.
Bardic Knowledge-- pretty useless without the scaling
Bardic Music-- Pretty good, but requires all the normal investment in perform to make it really useful. Inspire Courage can be boosted, I suppose, but... 1/day, it's not that big a deal.
DFA's Breath Weapon-- Better than getting eldrich blast, I guess... pretty good, but not a dealbreaker or anything. I guess you could take another feat or two, slap Entangling Exhalation on there and crowd control? But with that kind of effort, it's easier to just dip the class.
Draconic Aura-- Moderately useful, but without scaling, the buffs are all pretty minor, making the Vigor aura the only vaguely useful one.
Knight's Challenge-- a minor buff a few times per day, assuming you have a decent charisma.


Really, the only ones I'd have any worry at all about are maybe Item Creation, Rage, Eldrich Blase, the Marshal's minor auras, Inspire Courage, and the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon. And I think that, in the end, they're all OK. Although I might kick the character level requirement on the feat up to 5.

Mind you, that's ignoring Soul Binding, Psionics, Maneuvers, Invocations, Meldshaping-- all of those are worrying, but should probably fall under "you can't pick spellcasting," seeing as how they're approximately the same thing.

Yitzi
2013-05-03, 05:40 PM
Consider though: use this, take Turning. Opens DMM for all the other Divine Casters. Druid, Spirit Shaman, Shugenja. Are you ok with this? 'cause a DMM-ing Druid sounds just horrifying.

Keep in mind that a druid could do that anyway at the cost of a level, by dipping. That sounds more like "DMM is broken" (which I think we already knew) than a problem with this feat.

Hanuman
2013-05-04, 02:40 PM
A combination of rogue-like classes adding +1D6 damage, may not all be called the same thing but they all stack.

Just having one class feature? No that's not too bad but consider having 2 for a human at level 1, or 4 with flaws, and it becomes a bit munchkin.

The root of the problem with this feat is that to get a relative balance point for any feat you generally compare it to another feat, where as this feat's only real function is to freely buy abilities that were not deemed suitable to have feat alternatives making them have no feat references and causing it to become broken by its own nature.

Again, I have to stress how much of a good idea it is to work this out casually with your DM as well as many other homebrew questions, but as a flat feat I'd generally advise against it.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-05-04, 02:49 PM
Just having one class feature? No that's not too bad but consider having 2 for a human at level 1, or 4 with flaws, and it becomes a bit munchkin.
It, ah... requires character level 3.

Given that you can't take it 4 times at first level, +1d6 sneak attack damage for a feat is... well, it's a bit better than taking Craven at 3rd level, but it doesn't scale, so I'd call it fair.

Tanuki Tales
2013-05-04, 02:58 PM
I'd personally love to take this on a character to net a Monk's Unarmed Strike progression and then take Superior Unarmed Strike and wear a Monk's belt.

Draz74
2013-05-04, 03:30 PM
Turn Undead-- That one is... pretty useful, but mostly in conjunction with DMM cheese.
No. There are plenty of other uses for Turn Undead. This would be a must-take feat for counterspellers of all varieties (with Divine Defiance), or for certain melee builds who lack other means of getting Pounce (with Travel Devotion). And Divine Spell Power and other Devotion feats are pretty strong options, too.

Cleric dips (or Sacred Exorcist dips) are already very tempting for a LOT of builds. Getting this ability as a feat would be even better in many cases.

EDIT: On second thought, this would actually kill the popularity of Travel Devotion, since people would just use this feat to pick up that stupid Lion Spirit Totem Pounce ability that never should have been a Level 1 ability in the first place ...


Inspiration-- This one is actually useless unless you take the feat a second time to get Cunning Insight or Knowledge... which is still a pretty crappy trade-off for one feat, much less two.
Eh, being able to add +INT to an attack roll, damage roll, or save 2/encounter would be a decent feat. I agree with you that it's a pretty weak payoff for two feats, though.


Sneak Attack-- fair, methinks
Worse than Assassin's Stance, but easier to qualify for. I suppose you're right.


Rage-- This one is a pretty good deal. Not too good, I don't think, but it's pretty good.
Still weak IMO unless you're using it to qualify for Rage Mage or Totem Rager or something.


Minor Auras-- OK, that's pretty good.
Heck yes. This will become a must-take feat for any Charisma-based character.


Favored Enemy-- Decent value for a feat.
Pretty weak.


Really, the only ones I'd have any worry at all about are maybe Item Creation, Rage, Eldrich Blase, the Marshal's minor auras, Inspire Courage, and the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon. And I think that, in the end, they're all OK. Although I might kick the character level requirement on the feat up to 5.
I'd worry about Turn Undead, and the Marshal's Aura.

Maybe Item Creation or Bardic Music (the latter because it could qualify you for things like Doomspeak).

I think the others are ok, including Rage/Eldritch Blast/Breath Weapon.


Mind you, that's ignoring Soul Binding, Psionics, Maneuvers, Invocations, Meldshaping-- all of those are worrying, but should probably fall under "you can't pick spellcasting," seeing as how they're approximately the same thing.
QFT.

Although ... would 1 Least Invocation as a feat be breakable?

Psionics, Maneuvers, Invocations, and Meldshaping already have fairly-balanced ways to access them via feats. Binding feats are a bit weak ... but I'd still be leery of allowing Hellfire Warlocks or aspiring Anima Mages to get full-fledged Soul Binding (as a L1 Binder) for a feat.


I'd personally love to take this on a character to net a Monk's Unarmed Strike progression and then take Superior Unarmed Strike and wear a Monk's belt.

Um ... the feat, as it's being discussed, would only give you the Unarmed Strike of a Level 1 monk. And what you propose isn't all that different from just taking Superior Unarmed Strike, anyway.

Hanuman
2013-05-04, 03:55 PM
Um ... the feat, as it's being discussed, would only give you the Unarmed Strike of a Level 1 monk. And what you propose isn't all that different from just taking Superior Unarmed Strike, anyway.
You're saying that Improved Unarmed Strike is basically the same thing as a level 1 monk's unarmed strike class feature, without putting in a question mark.

Tanuki Tales
2013-05-04, 03:57 PM
Um ... the feat, as it's being discussed, would only give you the Unarmed Strike of a Level 1 monk.

Why, I never even knew that! I completely thought it gave you the full progression! Silly me!

:smalltongue:


And what you propose isn't all that different from just taking Superior Unarmed Strike, anyway.

The difference is that it nets you 1 more level of Unarmed Strike progression than if you just went with Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monk's belt. Yes, there's no exact difference by itself, but if you can stack further progression increases from other sources (which, since we're already arguing the use of homebrew material, is out there) on top of that, it could be the difference between a dice size.

And you could also see the argument that the Monk's Belt doesn't give you a progression and thus Superior Unarmed Strike doesn't make you have the UAS of a 9th level monk.

Hanuman
2013-05-04, 04:07 PM
The difference is your unarmed strikes count as lethal manufactured weapons with an equivalent of +3.5 levels of monk progression damage, otherwise you'd need to get the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

Tanuki Tales
2013-05-04, 04:28 PM
The difference is your unarmed strikes count as lethal manufactured weapons with an equivalent of +3.5 levels of monk progression damage, otherwise you'd need to get the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

There's that too.