Overwhelm an NPC?

[TheDarkSaint]

Are there any rules for having multiple creatures overwhelming an opponent?

The grapple rules for multiple opponents just aren't very effective, in my opinion...or am I missing something?

[Emperor Ing]

Well there's the Mob rules in Cityscape and DMG II if you wanna represent a large number of weak enemies (or a slightly smaller number of strong enemies) as one being. I think that's what you're looking for.

[Bob]

The system is kind of designed so that a few individuals can beat many less powerful individuals in a large melee, so overwhelming is a bit contrary to the design goals of the game. That said, think of the grappling rules this way: how ever many people you use to take down an individual, that is how many rolls you have to beat his one roll. While it is possible for a very strong character to have a single amazing roll that is unbeatable by any of your grapplers, it isn't very likely.

You could probably also use the aid another action to give bonuses to grapple checks, even though it doesn't specifically state so.

[TheDarkSaint]

I was thinking more along the lines of summoning 3 or 4 fiendish dire apes and having them all gapple an Effreet. Right now there doesn't to any real bonus for having multiple people grapple one NPC. From what I've seen of the rules, the Efreet just has to beat everyones roles.

[Matticussama]

The group could use aid another to assist in the Grapple.


Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

So if you had 4 Fiendish Dire Apes, you would choose one as the primary and have the other 3 aid another; assuming they all hit the AC 10 aid another roll, which shouldn't be hard, the primary ape would get a +6 bonus.

[Rhynn]

Obviously what you need are some overbearing rules for 3.X, which were totally never at all over-complicated and overpowered in AD&D 1E and 2E!

[Bob]

I do agree with you that it does seem like there should be an actual bonus

But as it stands, while having multiple grapplers gives no bonus to potential success, it does reduce your chances of failure by a pretty significant amount.

so, if an efreet has 7 grapple over a dire ape and the higher bab, then the ape must beat the djinn's unmodified roll by 8 in order to start a hold. An ape has roughly 1 in 5 chance to start a hold, but if you have four apes rolling consecutively, you increase that chance 4 times, giving you a 4 in 5 chance, which is pretty good.

So four apes will probably grapple an Efreet even though he is much stronger, right before he subsequently becomes a puff of smoke and floats away.

Edit: fixed some numbers. aid another should work. Efreet still has gaseous form.

[TheDarkSaint]

Aid another was what I was looking for. Thanks!

[Kristinn]

An ape has roughly 1 in 5 chance to start a hold, but if you have four apes rolling consecutively, you increase that chance 4 times, giving you a 4 in 5 chance, which is pretty good.

That's not how probabilities work. If you have five apes there isn't a 5 in 5 (100%) chance of succeeding, nor if you have 6 apes is there a 120% chance of succeeding. If you have n apes with an individual probability p of succeeding, the chances are 1-(1-p)^n, or

1-(1-1/5)^4 = 1-(4/5)^4 = 1-16/25 = 9/25 = 36/100 = 36%

or approximately one third chance, which is not really that good.

For small p the expression can be approximated using Taylor expansion as 1-(1-n*p) = n*p, as you claimed, but it is only valid for small probabilities p.

[Bob]

I could tell that I was doing something wrong with that last dimension, thank you for the enlightenment, sir.