Understanding the alignments

[Kafana]

I have a somewhat hard time to grasp the idea of what makes someone of a particular alignment. The distinction between good and evil isn't so vague as much as the distinction between chaotic and lawful, when we're not talking about extremes.

Examples would help the most, I think.

Now, it's obvious that a paladin, always protecting the weak and banishing the evil, while upholding law, honor and justice is lawful good, but what happens when a paladin needs to choose between saving an innocent and preserving the law.
An example: Say that Mark is a poor paladin who has met a man who made a pact with the devil in order to save his family. Now, the man is doing the devil's work, Mark finds out about this and realizes that the man's actions were understandable - he was protecting his wife and daughter. The man isn't proud of what he has done, but Mark doesn't punish him and goes on to banish the devil. However, the church and Mark's superiors deem that the man must be punished, severely so, for working for the devil. Sure, one could go about trying to find all manner of ways to convince his superiors that the man's actions were, at least to some extent, justifiable, but what if the situation is black and white - help the man or smite him.

No, what I'm interested in more is the lawful evil alignment. How far does lawful actually reach? Does it mean following a code of conduct created by yourself, your superior, or the general idea of honor?
An example: Guldur is a newly formed lich, serving his evil god. The god orders him to go and commit all manner of chaos on the nearby village, causing mass destruction, agony and death, using all manner of tricks and cheats to slay those that would oppose him. Is this a chaotic act or a lawful one? Guldur is merely following orders, to the letter even, by causing chaos.

Another example: Lets say an evil god has his rule book on how to deal with mortals. It's not quite an "honor code", but it isn't too far off. If you make a deal with this god to get something, he estimates how many deaths you need to cause and grants you your wish. He will never trick you by not counting certain kills, nor will he make you remember the phrase "be careful what you wish for". Basically, you make a contract with no fine print and no schemes and tricks. This contract might include chaotic things, something that would dishonor someone, etc, but it's a valid, honest contract. Is this god lawful?


Please post your own dilemmas if you have them, as well as examples which are somewhat controversial, but can explain the alignments better.

[Keneth]

Here. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterAlignment)

tencharacters

[DonDuckie]

Aren't alignments great?:smallbiggrin:

In general: If the action seems to go either way or both; it's most likely Neutral

This goes for the entire post: If it happens in my game...

Mark: if his Paladin's Code demands that he obeys his church/superiors, then the lawful thing to do must(dangerous word) be to kill the father as ordered... HOWEVER: murdering a desperate man is evil, and Mark's behind would be fallen. But orders of paladins don't order murders on those who in desperation made a mistake... For a Paladin: Good comes before Law.
---------
If Guldur is following orders and doing Chaotic things against his nature, I say he's Lawful... if he would have done the same way without being specifically told to, then he's Chaotic... if he wouldn't have done in that way but sees the efficiency of it; then he may be Neutral going on Chaotic.
---------
Contracts and the upholding therof are usually Lawful... but for a Chaotic character who enjoys doing chaotic things... he's still Chaotic.
---------

It's never Good or Evil, or even Lawful or Chaotic.
It's Good/Neutral/Evil, and Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic.

-------
I don't really have any good controversial examples(because I have an answer for EVERYTHING)... I like the alignment system, but for most of the time it's just a judgement call.

In my campaign, alignments are prime forces of the multiverse... can't be argued with, no crying about them...

[Bob]

Being Lawful doesn't necessitate that you follow every rule or order, just that you have an affinity for order.

For instance: lawful evil characters tend to be treacherous liars and thieves that use unfair laws to subjugate and unscrupulous practices to tyrannize, and they tend to lie and cheat when things aren't in their favor.

Being lawful does not mean you are ethical, just that you use laws.

On the other side of the box, lawful good characters are not required to follow evil virtues either. A paladin doesn't put good behavior before the lawful, nor is he required to put lawful behavior before the good. If an order is not both lawful and good, it probably does not, for him, satisfy the qualification of coming from legitimate authority.

[Callin]

Also Alignment is your characters outlook on life not his day to day interactions. A LG character is within his rights to go get drunk and paint the town red. The next day sporting a hangover and saying why in the hell did I do that is acceptable. Evil characters can be swayed to give donations or help an old lady across the street. Don't mean they are good or even neutral. They still kick puppies and may even sacrafice the old bat later on that night.

Just think of it as an overall guideline for a characters outlook on life.

[TheDarkSaint]

I have a little bit different of a view.


Lawful, in my games, is about how important community is. Consequences of actions are weighed against the impact of the community.

So, Mark the Paladin is going to be concerned with community at large, the community of his Church as well as the community of the man's family. In terms of law, Mark is going to want to see the man removed from all those communities to prevent further harm. The man is a destabilizing force to 3 communities. Mark wants to act as a stabilizing force for his own.

Good looks at altruism. Mark, especially in investigating the man, may feel compassion for him, as well as empathy and especially forgiveness if the man is showing true contrition. If Mark's superiors are advocating death, Mark may disagree with them and believe that forgiveness is more important.

So, a route Mark could take to make a compromise between his ethics and morals is to act as an advocate for the man at the trial, pushing for banishment, excommunication or some sentence that doesn't involve death. Mark is still concerned with removing the man from his community as he has proved dangerous, but also shows that he can be compassionate as well.


When we look at our Lich, we have a Lawful Evil serving what appears to be a chaotic god who wants destruction.

Having a good definition of law and community, we look at evil.

Evil is selfishness with no regard to others. It cares nothing for the people it hurts to achieve it's own goals, be it power, pleasure, revenge or nihilism. It has no friends, it has no one it trusts. Comfort and empathy are strange concepts, used for people who are weak, or as a means of deception to get what it wants.

Our lich receives orders to go out and cause havoc and destruction. Because he is lawful, he is part of a community, namely the community created by his god and his worshipers. That community may be quite small, but for whatever reasons (safety, protection, power), that community is important to him and he wants it to stay that way. What is good for his community is good for him and so going out to destroy and cause mayhem isn't a problem, since it allows him to stay within his own status quo.

Being evil, he doesn't care much about the lives that are hurt while he is protecting his own community by following orders.

[Amnestic]

Also Alignment is your characters outlook on life not his day to day interactions. A LG character is within his rights to go get drunk and paint the town red. The next day sporting a hangover and saying why in the hell did I do that is acceptable.

Wait, how is getting drunk violating (or against) either Lawful or Good?

[Rahdjan]

To a certain extent, I don't think characters should "Pick" an alignment. I think they should play and the DM assign an alignment based on how they act. A player should be given hints of the alignment as they play and make choices. For example a character who generally acts in a good maner and upholds the law needs to get info from a prisoner and he goes a little over board in obtaining the info the GM could say "You breathe a sigh of releif now having the key to BBEG plan, but it tears at you the manner in which it was attained. Tonight will stick with you for a long time."

If the character then continues doing good, nothing changes. He's a good guy with a shameful moment in his past.

[Callin]

Wait, how is getting drunk violating (or against) either Lawful or Good?

I didnt say that. I said getting drunk and painting the town red. As in cutting loose and letting it all hang out. Chaos and Mayhem... Would be a tad out of character for what is considered the stuffiest of fuddy duddies out there.

[Maginomicon]

I strongly recommend you read this article on "real" alignments (http://easydamus.com/alignmentreal.html). I've implemented its advice in games I run and it works great. It supplies among many other things a very viable way for "evil" characters to fight alongside "good" characters and have it make perfect sense.

In a nutshell, everyone is the hero of their own story, and so there's no reason you can't be heroic alongside anyone else no matter what path they follow. Codes of Conduct hamper this, but not so much that it's a stranglehold like it is in the RAW.

[PersonMan]

For example a character who generally acts in a good maner and upholds the law needs to get info from a prisoner and he goes a little over board in obtaining the info the GM could say "You breathe a sigh of releif now having the key to BBEG plan, but it tears at you the manner in which it was attained. Tonight will stick with you for a long time."

I disagree. If the player wants to play someone who is normally Good but can shut off his conscience to torture people sometimes, I'd let him. If he doesn't want to be guilty about it, don't make him be. If he's going to be guilty, he'll do it himself. The only time I'd supply emotional descriptions to PCs (i.e. "you feel X") is if supernatural effects (or similar) are involved.

[Slipperychicken]

#1 (Mark the Paladin): The Paladin's code mandates that he punish those who threaten or harm the innocent. Nonetheless, Mark's adherence to his personal code of honor is lawful (even though it contradicts the Paladin code), and he might even escape falling. Good on him, standing up for what he thinks is right.

#2 (Lich & god): Following orders to the letter is lawful. A more easily-understood example of this is Paladins of chaotic deities, or royal servants working for an eccentric king. They might follow their masters to the letter and are devoted to service, even when the master himself isn't very consistent. Of course, people aren't defined by one act or personality aspect. The Lich may take great pleasure in sowing chaos and destroying the status quo, or he might be a punch-card villain just following orders.

#3 (Of Quotas and Killing): Keeping such codes and quotas is a lawful thing to do, but is also a smart thing to do when managing an organization and achieving goals, and isn't enough to make someone definitively lawful on it's own. Consistently performing his obligations, keeping his promises, and expecting that his subordinates do the same will push our god toward lawfulness.

[awa]

i'm not certain community is a good decider for lawfulness or not.

it would force a fairly substantial re-fluffing of a number of races and monsters not to mention archetypes.

the evil lawyer basically the face of lawful evil is not usually depicted as particularly interested in helping his community.
not to mention the lone assassin that caries out his jobs with perfect professionalism

and on the other end it means the mad dooms day cultists spreading chaos for chaos sake are lawful so long as they do it with the buddy system.

It means races like goblins and devils well known for there backstabbing natures are better community minded then elves or angelic beings.

not to mention monsters who are known for being solitary.

So while being part of a community may be part of it i think making it the only aspect of law vrs chaos requires a fairly major change to the core assumptions of the game