Arcane, or Divine Lich? D&D 3.5

[angry_bear]

So, I'm going to be playing an evil aligned character in a few weeks, and I figure that a fun goal would be to become a Lich. However, I'm just trying to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of divine vs arcane magic. Both provide a ton of options, but which would all of you recommend?

Of course, the Lich Wizard is a classic; and provides a wide variety of options in terms of spells, and I think, better protection spells for my Phylactery. There's also the sorcerer, but I figure I might as well go tier 1 in this campaign.

However, a Lich Cleric is something I haven't seen too often, and seems to have great potential... A War Cleric that happens to be an immortal Lich for example, seems like it'd be hilarious.. However, the class provides certain limitations. The house rule is that you can't follow just domains, but a deity from a recognized source book (No home brewed gods) That in itself isn't a huge problem, aside from choosing the actual deity. However, I'm not sure sure which deity would be the best choice for this...

One thing I was considering, but seems entirely too cheesy is Monk/Cleric with the Lich template. Flurry of blows + Paralyzing Touch (Pretty sure there's a feat in Libris Mortis that increases the number of times a round I can use it) just seems devastating to me... But the problem with that is, I'll need multiple levels of monk, which means it'd take longer to become a Lich. Also I'm not entirely sure if I can use touch attacks with flurry.

If anyone is still reading after that wall of text; I'm open to any, and all suggestions that you have. I still have loads of time before this campaign is started, so I figured I'd make use of that time and prep a character and his progression in advance. :smallsmile:

[Madara]

Don't worry too much about cheese. You're taking 4 levels of LA for Lich template, so you should make the most of it, especially as a caster.

[Bob]

I vote Duskblade.

[angry_bear]

Don't worry too much about cheese. You're taking 4 levels of LA for Lich template, so you should make the most of it, especially as a caster.

True, but I'm concerned that, if I take 2 levels in monk, the earliest that I can become a Lich is level 13. Which isn't too bad, but it seems like a lot of time lost for the sake of only a relatively cool attack idea.

[Bob]

becoming a lich is a little bit of a difficult conundrum game play wise, because you have four effective character levels (and about that many levels worth of features and abilities) that simply appear out of nowhere.

So the question becomes whether you will be able to become a lich at caster level 11, or will you have to attain ecl 15 and sacrifice 4 hit dice down to your template?

and if you do look at my above suggestion, the caster level progression for that class is described in the errata.

also, a lich monk would be cool, even if it doesn't do the thing that you want it to do, which I don't think it does.

[Starbuck_II]

One thing I was considering, but seems entirely too cheesy is Monk/Cleric with the Lich template. Flurry of blows + Paralyzing Touch (Pretty sure there's a feat in Libris Mortis that increases the number of times a round I can use it) just seems devastating to me... But the problem with that is, I'll need multiple levels of monk, which means it'd take longer to become a Lich. Also I'm not entirely sure if I can use touch attacks with flurry.


Practiced Spellcaster ensures you wait no time to be a Lich (+4 up to character level).

So a Monk 4/Cleric 7 with PS will have 11 caster and qualify for Lich.

[Arael666]

Practiced Spellcaster ensures you wait no time to be a Lich (+4 up to character level).

So a Monk 4/Cleric 7 with PS will have 11 caster and qualify for Lich.

Still, with monk 4 and lich template its a huge hit to spell levels. By lvl 20 he'll cast like a lvl 12 cleric, it just doesnt seem worth it.

Since you're willing to get the+4LA template, dont hurt your spell levels anymore than that. IMHO you should just go with DMM clericzilla, get a nice deity (since they said ANY from sourcebook, there're quite a few with awesome domains) and call it a day, you'll cats 8th lvl spells, instead of just 6th lvl ones.

[Bob]

considering he is losing those spell levels, maybe he should go with Ur priest. That's pretty evil.

And you can still draw power from classic deities, just against their will.

still probably need PS, though(?)

[jokeaccount]

If you are thinking divine lich check out the Walker in the Waste PrC from Sandstorm book. It is a divine PrC with pretty easy reqs (although it loses 2 caster levels but you can remedy that with practiced spellcaster) and it gives the lich template for free at level 10 (no LA!!!). Also, don't take Monk levels it's not cool :smalltongue:

[Daftendirekt]

Don't worry too much about cheese. You're taking 4 levels of LA for Lich template, so you should make the most of it, especially as a caster. You want to stick monk levels in.

Fixed that for you.

[KillianHawkeye]

Lich Bard, you know you want to!

[Seer_of_Heart]

Still, with monk 4 and lich template its a huge hit to spell levels. By lvl 20 he'll cast like a lvl 12 cleric, it just doesnt seem worth it.

Since you're willing to get the+4LA template, dont hurt your spell levels anymore than that. IMHO you should just go with DMM clericzilla, get a nice deity (since they said ANY from sourcebook, there're quite a few with awesome domains) and call it a day, you'll cats 8th lvl spells, instead of just 6th lvl ones.

With la buyoff he can buy off 1 point of LA to give him 9th level spells :smallbiggrin:

[Stormlock]

For what it's worth, I'd say clerics have WAY better spells for creating a hidey hole for a phylactery. Lay Forbiddance on a rectangular room just big enough to hold a Blade Barrier set to be triggered by a Greater Glyph of Warding. Make the entrance only accessible by something like Meld with Stone and bar it with a permanent Wind Wall. Or just make it underwater. You don't need the air.

That's pretty damned hard to get into without becoming swiss cheese, and that's just ~4 spells cast on a hole in the ground.

I'd also consider having access to sponataneous Cause Wounds spells a significantly greater advantage for an evil undead than for an evil living caster (or cure wounds for a living good caster.) Being able to heal and harm with the same spell that you can convert anything into is a pretty sweet perk.

[Arcanist]

For what it's worth, I'd say clerics have WAY better spells for creating a hidey hole for a phylactery. Lay Forbiddance on a rectangular room just big enough to hold a Blade Barrier set to be triggered by a Greater Glyph of Warding. Make the entrance only accessible by something like Meld with Stone and bar it with a permanent Wind Wall. Or just make it underwater. You don't need the air.

That's pretty damned hard to get into without becoming swiss cheese, and that's just ~4 spells cast on a hole in the ground.

I'd also consider having access to sponataneous Cause Wounds spells a significantly greater advantage for an evil undead than for an evil living caster (or cure wounds for a living good caster.) Being able to heal and harm with the same spell that you can convert anything into is a pretty sweet perk.

OR! OR! Place it into a Handy Haversack and then give it to a random adventurer who will never look for a Lich's Phylactery in a Handy Haversack...

[KillianHawkeye]

With la buyoff he can buy off 1 point of LA to give him 9th level spells :smallbiggrin:

Seems kind of odd to let him start buying it off immediately.

[angry_bear]

I think Clericzilla is what I'll go with... Practiced Spellcaster is that a feat? Where can I find it?

...You know, I've had Sandstorm for about two years but I don't think I've ever looked at the prestige classes. I'll look more into Walker of the Wastes.

Lich Bard... That'd be hilarious, but the lowest I'd be willing to go is tier 2 (Knowing the other players, Lich Cleric probably isn't even going to be the most powerful character in the party lol)

I wish I could draw, I'd whip up a comic with a Lich Monkey Cleric as a minor antagonist. lol

[kiryoku]

If your DM is cool with homebrew. o-o http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29 under the PRC class lord of the damned. It gives you the lich for free over a few levels and you lose one point of base attack and your fort save drops. you can get this at level six so at level sixteen you have become a lich without the level ajustment.

[KillingAScarab]

Practiced Spellcaster is that a feat? Where can I find it?Yes, practiced spellcaster is a feat. It was published in most of the Complete books. Here it is in an excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a&page=2) from Complete Arcane.

[angry_bear]

That's pretty cool, I'll have to look into buying that book... Thanks for the link.

[Ramza00]

If your DM is cool with homebrew. o-o http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29 under the PRC class lord of the damned. It gives you the lich for free over a few levels and you lose one point of base attack and your fort save drops. you can get this at level six so at level sixteen you have become a lich without the level ajustment.
Heartless Mage also from the same source has a very similar look and feel to a lich but you are not technically undead, just someone who posses others when they die, have a phylactery, and you can create a new body with 12 hours of time.

[kiryoku]

True but if he makes it into epic he can become a demi lich then. XD but if he takes heartless mage he can't. I thought ahead a little bit incase he wanted to keep running with the lich thing. Demi lich is ungodly powerful but has just as an ungodly lvl ajust. x.x so its questionable. unless your DM makes up a class that gives it to you over another ten levels or thats the level twenty lord of the damned capstone. his between abilities would be odd seeing as most of the good undead stuff is ate up on just twenty levels. sad really seems like the necromancer gets boned on good undead power up feats. also make sure to grab corpse crafter and nimble bones at the least so you get even more when you become a lich after all you made yourself undead so you get the bonuses too. just don't be stupid and try and abuse that most DMs will not stand for it.

also that is a even bigger case of why cleric would be better for a lich. the added +2hp per hd, +4str, +10ft speeds, and +4 initiative helps a little more.

[angry_bear]

So it's interesting, I told another player in the group about what I was planning on doing when we start the campaign. His response? "I was planning to do the same with a Wizard,"

So now that's two players with a similar goal... This might be the greatest adventure hook I've ever seen. lol

[KillingAScarab]

That's pretty cool, I'll have to look into buying that book... Thanks for the link.Practiced spellcaster was also published in Complete Divine. If only WotC still had editors to tackle a Complete Complete, since practiced spellcaster is amongst the rare things you can find in more than one of those books. Divine might have a bit more of interest to you if you favor divine spellcasters, but Arcane has plenty of reasons to warrant a purchase.

[graymachine]

The Dry Lich out of Sandstorm is a divine Lich if I recall correctly, although I might be misremembering it as that product of the Walker In The Waste PrC. Still, again if I recall correctly, the Walker In The Waste PrC is going to be better for you as it has continuous caster level advancement throughout it.

As for Deities, I hear Vecna is pretty cool with liches. Alternatively, you could go with the aforementioned Ur-Priest an take that into Walker In The Waste, although I can't recall if that has slower spell progression.

[Fyermind]

I second the vote for dry lich out of cleric, though archivist can be fun too.

[graymachine]

I second the vote for dry lich out of cleric, though archivist can be fun too.

Yeah, from why I recall of it, it's pretty sweet, although you have to take magical precautions against getting wet, especially outside of desert environments. My experience with Dry Lich was when a DM ran a side-story with one-shot caster characters he let us build defending a magic university against an army. My friend built a Dry Lich divine caster and I built a Necropolitan wizard; his side story didn't work out the way he expected when we mopped the floor with his army.