Gish advice

[Anium]

I've been thinking for a while on doing a gish build, but after reading some of them none convince me or just are too late game focused, so i'm trying to come up with a build that suits my tastes.
Starting level 10 without magic items. Stats are 18,16,16,14,14,10

wizard 4 duskblade 3 ABjc 3 Human LG

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 18+2
Wis 14
Cha 10

Variants:
focused specialist conjurer (banned evocation, necro and enchant)
Inmediate magic vairant
Martial wizard

Feats: Improved init, Power atack, divine disciple, Arcane strike, knowledge devotion.

[Aegis013]

What exactly are you going to get out of Wizard?
Are you advancing Wizard or Duskblade with AbjC? (I'm assume Wizard)

I honestly think a pretty great Gish build is as follows:
Duskblade 13/AbjC 5/Warblade 2 (a player of mine used this and really enjoyed it)

The reason is because if you limit yourself to only 3 levels of Duskblade then you won't be able to make full attacks with your channeled spell. When you make a full attack with your channeled spell you get the benefit of the spell multiple times, so although Duskblade 10 seems like a boring way to start off your career from level 10, it's mechanically quite good.

If it is your intention to stick to only standard action attacks, I would strongly consider looking at levels in either Warblade or Crusader going into Jade Phoenix Mage from Tome of Battle. The reason is because you can activate channeling and a standard action strike to benefit from both, which should help your damage output.

At present, the Wizard levels really provide you a lot of useful options, and progressed by AbjC give you 4th level spells, which is great, but it also really hurts your HD and BAB, which are important considerations for a gish.

[Anium]

Thx for the response. The game is going around an Arena, so my character must be combat focused.Straight duskblade might have very good numbers but lacks utility and we don't have access to magic items(mundane are ok), so i couldnt get flight, dispells, resistances, etc...

The Bab should be fixed by divine might, you are right about the hp issue but i really want the utility for our scape.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... can Duskblade get into Sand Shaper?

[Cog]

Mage of the Arcane Order is good for giving Duskblades utility. Dip a single level to get the first instance of Spellpool early on, then wait until you've got full-attack channeling to take a few more levels in MotAO and get the second instance.

[Aegis013]

Thx for the response. The game is going around an Arena, so my character must be combat focused.Straight duskblade might have very good numbers but lacks utility and we don't have access to magic items(mundane are ok), so i couldnt get flight, dispells, resistances, etc...

The Bab should be fixed by divine might, you are right about the hp issue but i really want the utility for our scape.

I see, well Wizard will provide a good deal of utility, but may I ask how you're going to get, I think you meant, Divine Power? None of your classes grant Use Magic Device as a class skill, so it's going to take some serious investment to be able to consistently activate a wand of Divine Power.

If you actually meant Divine Might, where are you getting Turn/Rebuke Undead to qualify for the feat?

[Anium]

Arcane disciple of War domain. Wis 14 so i can learn and cast it. I decided for Fire elf generalist wizard to buff my CDs a bit and swapped Improved init for Law devotion. I chose to fluff my character as an "Arcane Paladin", featuring his channel spell as a smite.

[Ace Nex]

Jade Phoenix can be be a pretty fun PRC to go into. Arcane Wrath+Arcane Strike+Ruby or Diamond Nightmare blade is hysterical.

[Douglas]

Jade Phoenix can be be a pretty fun PRC to go into. Arcane Wrath+Arcane Strike+Ruby or Diamond Nightmare blade is hysterical.
Crusader 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 4 can be a very potent build. DR 8/evil should help a lot to compensate for low hit dice, an Arcane Strike-boosted Revitalizing Strike lets you dish out high damage and heal yourself at the same time, you're only 1 spell level behind straight wizard and have access to all the standard gish spells (have fun with Bladeweave and Wraithstrike if they're not banned), you can turn cantrips into +4 to hit at a swift action cost, maneuvers auto-refresh for free (take Extra Granted Maneuver to speed up the cycle), etc. Both lots of flexibility/utility and piling on bonuses.

[Maginomicon]

So far as low-level effective gish builds...

I've found a lot of mileage out of a combination of the thri-kreen racial class, the divine spellcaster class, the arcane spellcaster class, and the mystic theurge prestige class. The thri-kreen racial class results in him being martial-only for the first two levels, but as soon as he picks up his first level of divine spellcaster at ECL 3 he can cast blood wind to attack at range.

At the same time (ECL 3) he picks up the +2d6 Sneak Attack spellcaster ACF (as a 3rd level rogue would have) so he can use a full-attack in melee to do 5x(1d4+2d6) mundane damage (ignoring STRmod) from his five racial natural weapons. Add in the Craven feat and that adds ECL to his sneak attack damage. All this at Lvl 3.

Furthermore, if he uses the no light spell (a cantrip) and the target can't see in the dark, he can use blood wind to do sneak attack damage at range (because being blind denies DEX bonus to AC).

Once you're at ECL 10 things get really awesome. The character build I made for this is ECL 10, and I can show you the character sheet online if you want.

[herrhauptmann]

Why does your build have two different casting classes? I don't think you can use your duskblade abilities with your wizard spells, so duskblade really just hurts you.
You'll be casting as a wizard 7 and duskblade 3 in a level 10 game.

8 Bab isn't so bad at level 10, you won't be losing any iteratives just yet.
Arcane Strike probably isn't bad on sorcerer builds, but I don't know if you've really got the total spells per day to make it worthwhile. (4 first levels from DB, and 10 non-cantrips from wizard) Lose a 4th level spell in exchange for a +4 attack and up to 4d4 extra points of damage? A good 4th level spell is worth a lot more that.
Improved initiative is a good idea, particularly for arena fights. Do you have celerity and variants?


Lets see if I remember these sample builds right.
Wizard 6, Fighter 1 (or warblade or crusader), spellsword 1, Abjurant Champ 2
If you do use something from ToB, take it as late as you can, it'll grant you better maneuvers. Also allows for use of Luminous Armor.

Or for spontaneous
Paladin2 Sorcerer4 Spellsword1 Abjurant Champion3
This would be a good choice for your Arcane Disciple:War domain feat. Can't use Luminous Armor unless you take a feat to let a sorcerer prepare spells like a wizard.


Things that everyone remembers about Gishes:

16 BAB by level 20
9th level spells by level 20

Things that everyone should remember about Gishes:

Your CL will take a hit, so stick to buffing spells.
Your best spells will be several levels behind the party wizard and sorcerer too. So while the BBEG is failing his saves against the wizards best spells, he's going to laugh at your best spells.
Even when you and the party wizard are casting the same spells at the same level (like Rainbow Pattern), his will work more often than yours.

Here's a homebrew gish class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212289). Scroll down to the spell list for good gish spells. Bite of the X line is especially good.

Also, would you mind editing your first post, so that it says "Arcane Disciple:War Domain" in feats, not Divine Might? As you can see, it throws people off.

[herrhauptmann]

So far as low-level effective gish builds...

I've found a lot of mileage out of a combination of the thri-kreen racial class, the divine spellcaster class, the arcane spellcaster class, and the mystic theurge prestige class. The thri-kreen racial class results in him being martial-only for the first two levels, but as soon as he picks up his first level of divine spellcaster at ECL 3 he can cast blood wind to attack at range.

At the same time (ECL 3) he picks up the +2d6 Sneak Attack spellcaster ACF (as a 3rd level rogue would have) so he can use a full-attack in melee to do 5x(1d4+2d6) mundane damage (ignoring STRmod) from his five racial natural weapons. Add in the Craven feat and that adds ECL to his sneak attack damage. All this at Lvl 3.

Furthermore, if he uses the no light spell (a cantrip) and the target can't see in the dark, he can use blood wind to do sneak attack damage at range (because being blind denies DEX bonus to AC).

Once you're at ECL 10 things get really awesome. The character build I made for this is ECL 10, and I can show you the character sheet online if you want.

Where's the Thri-kreen racial class? Savage Species? They've normally got what, 2 racial HD and +1 LA?
Also, "divine spellcaster class" and "arcane spellcaster class?" You mean cleric and wizard? Generic classes?
Sneak attack spellcaster sounds good, where is that as well? Complete Scoundrel?

[Maginomicon]

Where's the Thri-kreen racial class? Savage Species? They've normally got what, 2 racial HD and +1 LA?
Also, "divine spellcaster class" and "arcane spellcaster class?" You mean cleric and wizard? Generic classes?
Sneak attack spellcaster sounds good, where is that as well? Complete Scoundrel?

The thri-kreen racial class is in Complete Psionic pages 149-151. The thri-kreen race option was introduced in the Expanded Psionics Handbook page 14 and have 2 RHD and LA +2. Racial classes, unlike monster classes, essentially have you gain racial abilities and ordinary class levels at the same time when you level up. At low ECL in a racial class you hammer out racial hit dice (if any) and their implications, and at higher ECL the end result is the same as if you were to have started play as the race involved. That's why earlier I kept talking in terms of ECL instead of "level".

The generic standard classes are "warrior", "expert", and "spellcaster" (with forced variants for arcane and divine), and they can be found in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) (not to be confused with the NPC classes). Generic classes have a set of built-in alternate class features where they can swap out a bonus feat they'd normally get for a class feature (such as sneak attack) so long as they meet the prerequisites mentioned at that level.

Before anyone chimes in about generic classes being unorthodox, generic classes are a completely valid standard class option, especially if you're trying to bring in someone to your group that's new to D&D and you want to get them into the game without having to mess around with teaching them how to use a bunch of class features they won't understand much less use. The fact that generic classes are damned-useful for the more knowledgeable players too is happy coincidence.

Regardless of whether you pick an arcane spellcaster or a divine spellcaster, much like the sha'ir class, it easily qualifies as being able to cast spells of either type for the purposes of the prerequisites for mystic theurge (regardless, you just can't advance spellcasting twice for the same class, which is why I took levels in both divine and arcane spellcaster).

[herrhauptmann]

Before anyone chimes in about generic classes being unorthodox, generic classes are a completely valid standard class option, especially if you're trying to bring in someone to your group that's new to D&D and you want to get them into the game without having to mess around with teaching them how to use a bunch of class features they won't understand much less use. The fact that generic classes are damned-useful for the more knowledgeable players too is happy coincidence.

They are valid, but they're still not to be used with regular classes or ACFs. Regular prestige classes are apparently still ok.

[Maginomicon]

They are valid, but they're still not to be used with regular classes or ACFs. Regular prestige classes are apparently still ok.The line in the text about disallowing "traditional" standard classes is a load of horse hockey. The generic classes exist to serve players that don't want something complicated, not to burden everyone else in the gaming group that would prefer a more "traditional" but complex class. It's not even like they're overpowered (for crissakes the generic spellcaster gets fewer spell slots than the sorcerer class, and that's saying something).

[Essence_of_War]

It's not even like they're overpowered (for crissakes the generic spellcaster gets fewer spell slots than the sorcerer class, and that's saying something).

The generic spellcaster is typically regarded as quite powerful, it's at least a massive upgrade to the sorcerer. The ability to cherry pick spells off the Divine list for the best buffs, and the Wiz/Sor list for the best BC is pretty crazy.

After level 8ish all casters are probably swimming in spell slots unless they're being silly or getting tons of extra encounters per day. Extra encounters which probably are as hard on the rest of the party as the casters.

[DeusMortuusEst]

A slightly more buff-focused build could use Cloistered cleric, Crusader and Ruby knight Windicator. Casting in heavy armor is always nice, but less blasty is a downside.

[Maginomicon]

The generic spellcaster is typically regarded as quite powerful, it's at least a massive upgrade to the sorcerer. The ability to cherry pick spells off the Divine list for the best buffs, and the Wiz/Sor list for the best BC is pretty crazy.The sorcerer gets access to not just pure fluff but feats and spells that synergize with their fluff. Draconic Heritage et al (and all the special spell effects that opens up like with Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry), Celestial Heritage et al, Divine Sorcery (by gods, Divine Sorcery...). For example, Draconic Breath is bar-none one of the most amazing feats a sorcerer can take because it lets them focus all of their low-level spells known on utility and other concerns instead of the blasting spells the rest of the party usually expects of them. That doesn't even account for the fact that sorcerers can swap out their familiar (which is kickass in its own right) for an animal companion or a slew of other nifty ACFs like Arcane Reabsorption.

Generic Spellcasters don't get any of that. They have zero fluff except the fluff you put into them through class skill selection (whoopty-doo), saving throw selection (whoopty-doo), and feats/"generic ACFs".