Question about Scrolls and Multiple Classes

[KillingAScarab]

I have not given much thought to scrolls until recently. Now, I have two questions dealing with spells which appear on the spell lists of multiple classes. This came to mind while thinking about the scenario which appeared in OotS #58 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). Cure Serious Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureSeriousWounds.htm) is a 3rd level spell for clerics and bards, but a 4th level spell for druids, paladins and rangers. If a character with a class which gets the spell as a 4th level spell tried to cast it from a scroll created by a cleric (a bard wouldn't create a divine scroll), which minimum ability score do they need to meet: 13 or 14? I assume they must use the ability their own spellcasting relies upon, so a shugenja would need to meet a minimum charisma score rather than wisdom, but is it determined by the class which created the scroll or the class which is using the scroll?

The second question is what happens to the DC in the case of a split-casting class? How would a favored soul handle this when casting the spell from a cleric scroll upon an undead creature?

I'm not particularly interested in discussing the implications of this happening in the comic, or any other part of that comic, or I would have brought the question to the OotS forum. Just looking for what the ruling would be at the game table.

[Psyren]

For divine scrolls, clerics and druids are considered the default creator unless otherwise specified. For arcane scrolls, sorcerers and wizards are considered the default creators unless otherwise specified.

As for Belkar, people typically use this strip as proof that he has 9 Wis. 9 base + 4 OW = 13, just enough to CSW.

EDIT: For your second question, the DC is set by the scroll itself, which is typically the minimum ability score necessary to use the scroll. You can't use your own ability score with a scroll unless you have a specific class ability etc. that overrides the general rule. This is true for just about every magic item except a stave.

[KillingAScarab]

Thanks for the answer to the second question Psyren, but I think you glossed over the first.


...13, just enough to CSW.This is the crux of it; is that what would happen at the game table, and if so, why? The SRD is vague on this, the third of three requirements to activate a scroll.


The user must have the requisite ability score.

Perhaps a different format will help me communicate.

If: a spell on a scroll is on two or more class spell lists which cast the same type of magic
Then:

Case 1: Caster's ability score must equal or exceed that required for their own class
Case 2: Caster's ability score must equal or exceed that required for the class which scribed the scroll
Case 3: Caster's ability score must equal or exceed the HIGHER requirement of the two classes involved
Case 4: Caster's ability score must equal or exeed the LOWER requirement of the two classes involved


Which ruling do you see being used at a game table? I don't think there is any precedent for either case 3 or 4, but who knows?

[TuggyNE]

UMD gives us the answer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm#emulateanAbilityScore):
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

[Duke of Urrel]

The rule that I favor, KillingAScarab, is your Rule Number Two: Caster's ability score must equal or exceed that required for the class which scribed the scroll.

Here's my reasoning. Clerics learn the Cure Serious Wounds spell at a lower caster level than rangers do because they are better at spellcasting than rangers. However, if a cleric has already taken the trouble to learn the Cure Serious Wounds spell and has inscribed it upon a magic scroll, then the task of merely completing this spell (with the help of the scroll) is easier for a ranger, for example Belkar, than casting the Cure Serious Wounds spell (as a fourth-level spell) would be. Belkar needs a Wisdom score of only 13 to activate a Cure Serious Wounds scroll, because this task is no harder for him than casting a third-level spell would be. The magic scroll enables him to finish casting this spell just as if he had learned it as a third-level spell.

Belkar may have had some trouble activating a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds if he had a caster level lower than five at the time, which is the minimum required for a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds created by a cleric. Remember that a ranger's caster level is only one-half of his class level as a ranger. If Belkar's caster level was lower than five at the time he activated the scroll, he would've had to make a caster-level check at DC 1 + the scroll's caster level (that is, DC 6) to succeed.

[Psyren]

Case 2: Caster's ability score must equal or exceed that required for the class which scribed the scroll

It's this one. And if a scroll's creator isn't specified, it defaults to cleric/druid for divine (whichever is lower), sorcerer/wizard for arcane. If the creator is specified, use the ability score the creator would have needed to cast it.

If you don't meet the minimum, then the UMD rules Tuggyne quoted come into play since you'll need to emulate an ability score.

[Chronos]

I don't think that scrolls actually have the class of their creator as an attribute, though. The only reason it matters is to determine the standard market price of a scroll.


Quoth Duke of Urrel:

Here's my reasoning. Clerics learn the Cure Serious Wounds spell at a lower caster level than rangers do because they are better at spellcasting than rangers.
That argument's a bit tricky, though, because there are also some spells which are lower level for a ranger than they are for a cleric. If a cleric is just plain better at casting spells, then why is Delay Poison a 1st-level spell for a ranger, but 2nd for a cleric?

Also, suppose we had an arcane scroll created by a wizard. Can a sorcerer with an 8 Int use it? Why or why not?

[Duke of Urrel]

I don't think that scrolls actually have the class of their creator as an attribute, though. The only reason it matters is to determine the standard market price of a scroll.

I agree. Magic scrolls don't necessarily have a specific class; a scribed spell belongs to every class that includes the spell in its class list.

However, magic scrolls do have a type: arcane or divine. Also, activating a magic scroll requires you to use the same mental ability as was used to create the scroll: Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. The rules appear here: http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell


If a cleric is just plain better at casting spells, then why is Delay Poison a 1st-level spell for a ranger, but 2nd for a cleric?

Clerics are generally better at spellcasting than rangers, for two reasons. (1) They can cast spells at first level, whereas rangers can't until they attain the fourth level. (2) If you're a cleric, your caster level is the same as your cleric level, but if you're a ranger, your caster level is only one-half of your ranger level. The Delay Poison spell (which a cleric can cast at the third level of experience, but a ranger not until the fourth level) has a lower spell level for rangers because rangers are more interested in poison and are likely to want to use a spell like Delay Poison more often.


Also, suppose we had an arcane scroll created by a wizard. Can a sorcerer with an 8 Int use it? Why or why not?

In order to activate a magic scroll, the user "must have the requisite ability score" – that is, the one that was used to create the scroll. A sorcerer would need high Intelligence to activate a magic scroll created by a wizard. Conversely, a wizard would need high Charisma to activate a magic scroll created by a sorcerer. Of course, this rule doesn't apply if you employ Use Magic Device skill, which enables you to activate a magic scroll as if you had the requisite ability score.

[Chronos]

But you just said that a scroll doesn't have a specific class, just arcane or divine. So how would you distinguish between a wizardly arcane scroll (made with intelligence) and a sorcerous arcane spell (made with charisma)?

[KillingAScarab]

In order to activate a magic scroll, the user "must have the requisite ability score" – that is, the one that was used to create the scroll. A sorcerer would need high Intelligence to activate a magic scroll created by a wizard. Conversely, a wizard would need high Charisma to activate a magic scroll created by a sorcerer.Hmm... I think I disagree with this interpretation, simply because a sorcerer doesn't cast any spells at all using their intelligence score. Charisma is their casting stat. This does highlight how vague "requisite ability score" is, though.

[ericgrau]

The scroll may not have a class but it does have a spell level and a caster level, plus the type arcane or divine. The ability score is the ability score of your own class because no other class may be specified. It must be at least 10 + scroll spell level. Additionally only arcane classes may use arcane scrolls and only divine classes may use divine scrolls.

Thus a wizard could scribe a scroll of magic circle against evil and a sorcerer would need at least a charisma of 13 to use it. A cleric would not be able to use it at all because it is an arcane scroll.

Thus a ranger using a spell of a 2nd level scroll that is a 1st level spell for him still needs a 12 wisdom because the spell on that scroll is actually 2nd level. And it has the appropriate save DC for a 2nd level spell and so on when he casts it.

[Duke of Urrel]

You know what? I'd rather switch to EricGrau's position than fight. Charisma is an ability that gets the short end of the stick too often. Let's say that a sorcerer – or even a bard – can use Charisma in place of Intelligence to activate a wizard's scroll. KillingAScarab is right; the rule is too vague to prohibit this.

Chronos also asked a good question: How do you even know, by deciphering a magic scroll, which ability was used to create it? Okay, I can understand distinguishing a divine scroll from an arcane one; there would be stylistic differences. And both spell level and caster level would be detectable, because the difficulty involved in deciphering a scroll rises with both. But detecting whether Intelligence or Charisma was used to create the scroll? It's a little harder to imagine how Spellcraft accomplishes that, and Spellcraft is already a very powerful skill.

So I'll go along with the majority here, for two reasons: (1) I'd rather give sorcerers and bards a break than give wizards even more exclusive power, and (2) there's no satisfying fluff to explain how an arcane magic scroll created with Charisma would differ from one created with Intelligence.