Gish bard? 3.x

[kulosle]

So i recently realized that I have never made a gish bard build. So i've set out to make one, but i don't play gish builds all that often. So i know that the goal of a gish is to get level 9 spells and 16 BaB.

So this means that I'd either have to take sublime chord (the preferred option), take heart fire fanner uping a different base class, or take prestigious bard. All of which are bard-like enough for me. I'd imagine that having IC would still be a good idea, but i probably won't be trying to optimize it so much.

Abjuration champion is the go to for all arcane gish builds, umm probably would want to take prestigious bard because then i can add the bard spell list to my sorcerer/wizard spell list, if that's the best one to take. If i took sublime chord than i would only need 8 more spell casting progression. But between one level in a caster class, one level in prestigious bard or heart fire fanner to get bardic music to qualify for sublime chord i've already lost 3 BaB so i could only lose one more.

So far i'm thinking of going Wizard 2/warblade 3/prestigious bard 1/jade phoenix mage 1/abjurant champion 3/sublime chord 1/abjurant champion 2/phoenix mage 7

How good does this sound? Also is it possible to get my bardic music up any higher, because right now its at 5?

[The Viscount]

If you want to make a gish bard, snowflake wardance and dragonfire inspiration are both notable contributions.

[Matticussama]

To go for more of the charismatic bard feel, you might want to consider Battle Sorcerer in place of Wizard. This helps boost your BAB, lets you cast in armor, and keying to Charisma helps better replicate the Bardic feel than a Wizard. Granted it doesn't have the "I can eventually know every spell in the game" power of a wizard, but it works fairly well for a Gish.

Plus, you can take Arcane Strike to convert your spells to bonuses to hit and damage in melee. With the larger number of spells per day that a Sorcerer has over a Wizard, that means more fuel for Gish damage.

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjuarnt Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3 - 16 BAB, 9th level spells, Cha SAD

[kulosle]

Yeah sorcerer probably is the better option, especially because sublime chords spells use cha, forgot about that. so what if i replaced wizard with sorcerer and warblade with crusader? Also my gm said we're using fractional BAB which should make this a little easier.

All though I do really like how much bardic music the build gorfnab posted, just wondering how much i'd be able to take advantage of the turn undead.

[Twilightwyrm]

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjuarnt Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3 - 16 BAB, 9th level spells, Cha SAD

I like it, it is simply and straightforward. I must ask though, is there another class that can substitute for Sacred Exorcist? I'm currently building a character along these lines, but I a) don't really think Sacred Exorcist would be appropriate for the character and b) don't think I'll be engaging in Persist spell shenanigans. Is there another Gish PrC that would function well in its place?

[Aegis013]

I like it, it is simply and straightforward. I must ask though, is there another class that can substitute for Sacred Exorcist? I'm currently building a character along these lines, but I a) don't really think Sacred Exorcist would be appropriate for the character and b) don't think I'll be engaging in Persist spell shenanigans. Is there another Gish PrC that would function well in its place?

Maybe Jade Phoenix Mage? You can take three levels if you have three free feats to burn. Or two levels if you dip to get in.

[kulosle]

no that wouldn't work cause you wouldn't have 9th levels spells at that point. You could take spellsword and two more levels in sublime chord, for more bardic music shenanigans.

the main reason i don't like the build is because i like having maneuvers on my gish builds, just more option. Plus i don't think i have the feats to take advantage of both IC and DMM.

Speaking of feats, what should i take for them any ways? Getting DFI, which i haven't decided if i want or not, takes two feats, 3 if i want it to be sonic damage. Song of the white raven is almost a must if i'm going for maneuvers. And i should probably take song of heart and word of creation if i'm trying to optimize IC. Trying to use DMM requires at least 3 feats, more if i want to take extra turning. plus i don't have extra turning pools so it's probably not optimal any ways. Someone already suggested snowflake war dance. Thats a lot of feats and none of those are even combat related feats. I've thought about going TWF because it goes well with the extra damage i'm getting, but thats a lot of feats as well. What about divine might or arcane strike?

[gorfnab]

I like it, it is simply and straightforward. I must ask though, is there another class that can substitute for Sacred Exorcist? I'm currently building a character along these lines, but I a) don't really think Sacred Exorcist would be appropriate for the character and b) don't think I'll be engaging in Persist spell shenanigans. Is there another Gish PrC that would function well in its place?
Ruathar - Races of the Wild



the main reason i don't like the build is because i like having maneuvers on my gish builds, just more option. Plus i don't think i have the feats to take advantage of both IC and DMM.

With my build you get Turn Undead at level 18. So really not going with DMM anyways. IF you want to use the Turn Undeads you could pick up the feat Divine Might at that level. Really the Sacred Exorcist is filler that gets you +2 BAB and full casting for the last three levels. Ruathar (Races of the Wild) is an easy substitution for the last 3 levels.

[tiercel]

I suppose it depends on the type of gish you're looking for. Straight bard can be played as gish in and of itself ("Tier 3" gish, of course), or you can play the "bardblade" or "bardsader" (which are basically ToB builds with IC added on via one/few bard levels and Song of the White Raven).

Personally I've never been a big fan of DFI because it has a high cost and either IC stacks with itself in different flavors (which feels off to me) or IC doesn't stack with itself in different flavors (in which case trading +hit/+dam for just +dam doesn't feel like it's worth the feats). IC optimization is definitely a place where you want to check with your DM/group as to their optimization level; high-op groups may expect a DFI/Words of Creation build whereas mid-op groups may throw rulebooks at you if you try it.

If you're thinking TWF, the cheap way is probably to take only TWF and then use Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) to pick up ITWF and just not worry about GTWF.

Note that if you are thinking about TWF/full attacks you probably want the [3.X] Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) so that you can actually set off full attacks with regularity. This is a major point of departure of TWFish builds and ToB builds; if you're packing a decent number of maneuvers, you'll just use martial strikes as a standard action and not necessarily worry about having to pack in a full attack. (More movement is always good for melee, though.)

Note that if you go Snowflake Wardance you're likely to have to go with longsword and sickle (short swords don't slash). (You could use a dagger in place of the sickle, but that depends on whether you are boosting static IC damage bonuses that can benefit from a crit, or extra damage dice that don't double on a crit.)

I'm not a big fan of Arcane Strike since you can usually pick a better effect than +hit/+dam from a spell slot (and if you really like burning magic into melee damage, you probably should consider playing a duskblade). Additionally, we are into the "does Arcane Strike stack with itself" territory, which, eh.

Part of the question here is how much bard you want in your gish -- do you basically just want IC, do you want to have full 9th-level spellcasting, do you want a dip of ToB or a splash or a ToB build -- and how much optimization do you want, in terms of tier and in terms of what the rest of the party / the DM are going to be like.

[kulosle]

Well my group only plays DnD when we want to optimize, because DnD rewards you the most for doing it. We aren't as good of optimizers as some of the people on these boards, but we're pretty good. I would really like this to be as good as possible without doing any infinite combos or any other ridiculous things of that nature. I want it to definitely feel like a bard. So i definitely want bardic music but i mainly want him to be able to fight on his own. I don't want his main job to be utility, i want it to be I kill things, like a gish should, but while being in a jolly good mood still singing and dancing all the while. I don't need ToB i just find them nifty, and i do want 9th level spells and 16 BAB.

[A_S]

Stolen from myself over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278101), Bard 7/Crusader or Warblade 2/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8 gets you 16 BAB, 9th level spells as a Sublime Chord, maxed Inspire Courage and lots of other Bardic Music goodies, and a little bit of Druid casting.

The full build is under the Healer tab in the linked thread.

[Darrin]

I'm not a big fan of Arcane Strike since you can usually pick a better effect than +hit/+dam from a spell slot (and if you really like burning magic into melee damage, you probably should consider playing a duskblade). Additionally, we are into the "does Arcane Strike stack with itself" territory, which, eh.


I am of the opposite opinion: I consider Snowflake Wardance to be a waste, and Arcane Strike is the better way to add bonuses to both attack/damage. Snowflake Wardance only adds an attack bonus. If you're looking for bonus damage on a TWF build, though, Dragonfire Inspiration trumps them both.


I don't need ToB i just find them nifty, and i do want 9th level spells and 16 BAB.

Bard 4/Fighter* 2/Aburant Champion 3/Eldritch Knight** 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +2/Eldritch Knight +6

* = Replace with Spirit Lion/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 for Pounce, Improved Trip, Whirling Frenzy, etc. You can also replace this with Warblade 2, Crusader 2, or Fighter 1/Spellsword 1 if you prefer.

** = Replace with Knight Phantom (Five Nations or available online). Jade Phoenix Mage is also fun, you lose a CL but can still get one 9th level slot.

[kulosle]

So is DFI and pounce the only way TWF is viable? It was said that they don't go well with maneuvers, and they take up a lot less feats. Even if i do end up going with maneuvers should i still get DFI?

I really like both of those last two builds that were posted. I don't know what it is but I'm having trouble deciding on any of these things, this is like the second gish i've ever done, and the other was in a gestalt campaign so that is a lot different. I tried reading the gish handbook, but it doesn't discuss bards. And it doesn't discuss the pros and cons of twf or maneuvers or things like that so i'm having a hard time deciding.

[Matticussama]

So is DFI and pounce the only way TWF is viable? It was said that they don't go well with maneuvers, and they take up a lot less feats. Even if i do end up going with maneuvers should i still get DFI?

At low levels, maneuvers actually make TWF better in my opinion. Wolf Fang Strike basically gives you the benefits of the TWF feat at level 1, allowing a character to be a decent TWF damage dealer even at low levels. Combine with the Shadow Blade for even better low level damage that can keep a TWF relevant even before taking the necessary feat chain.