[3.5] Simulacrum gray area

[Phelix-Mu]

Hello all,
Nice to be back after the crash.

Now, my question today is about simulacrum. Oh, the writing!

1.) You use wish and level ups to improve your character's stats. Do these carry over to the simulacrum, as you'd expect it's stats to be close to the original's? (ability scores aren't on the 50% list, though I guess level up increases probably are RAI on the list).

2.) An older monk has Timeless Body, and a simulacrum is made of the monk. The copy lacks the monk levels to have Timeless Body. Does the copy take the physical penalties for age, even though the monk doesn't have them?

3.) A template is on the original. Are templates copied?

4.) A copy is made of a multiclass character. The spell specifies 50% of class levels, but it doesn't nail down which 50% of class levels. Is the creator of the simulacrum free to choose the class makeup of the copy?

5.) Was any errata or official clarification of this spell ever offered (longshot)?

As ever, much thanks.:smallsmile:

[sleepyphoenixx]

1. Level up increases are a definite yes imo. I'd allow inherent bonuses but it's not RAW, so up to your Dm.

2. You don't have age penalties, so your simulacrum doesn't either since it's not actually alive and doesn't age.

3. Yes

4. It get's the class levels you had when you where half your level.

5. not afaik

[Phelix-Mu]

I like a lot of those answers.:smallamused:

Any other opinions out there?

[Skysaber]

Just +1 to everything he said.

[Phelix-Mu]

4. It get's the class levels you had when you where half your level.


How do we know this, though? The RAW seems quite vague on this point to my eyes. I am especially thinking of how this works out with non-caster types using UMD to cast the spell off of a scroll, thus removing the assumption of this spell primarily being available to dedicated casters.

Also interacts poorly with the rules on rebuilding a character, acquired templates, and stuff that radically alters the character at a specific point in the character's progression (random example: that Complete Arcane PrC that turns the character into a construct...Green Metal Adept?).

[Bakeru]

How do we know this, though? The RAW seems quite vague on this point to my eyes.We don't really know, but that's how negative levels work, which is the closest approximation.
(random example: that Complete Arcane PrC that turns the character into a construct...Green Metal Adept?).Green Star Adept.

[Phelix-Mu]

We don't really know, but that's how negative levels work, which is the closest approximation.

This sets up a chronological basis for judging levels/HD that doesn't at all seem to be implied by the intent of the spell. It doesn't make a younger copy, it doesn't make a copy that appears like the earlier you. Templates acquired at point x in the target's career are copied, regardless of when x occurs. Everything in the spell indicates a non-chronological approach to approximating abilities of the simulacra.

How egregious would it be to simply select levels totaling 50% of the target creature's levels, made up only of classes the target has and not exceeding the targets current level in any one class?

[Bakeru]

How egregious would it be to simply select levels totaling 50% of the target creature's levels, made up only of classes the target has and not exceeding the targets current level in any one class?In that case, I'd reduce it another way:
Every class gets reduced by the same amount (one level each at a time), until the reduced amount of levels equals half the original levels/HD, or until reducing them further would disable entry criteria for a prestige class. In the later case, only the prestige class loses levels until it's either fully removed (where normal "every class loses equally" resumes) or the total amount of levels is half the original amount.
If there's some "grey area" (like, two classes left, but only one level to remove), the creator of the simulacrum can choose.

In any case, it shouldn't be just "take whatever you want".

[Phelix-Mu]

Ah, well. Bakeru, your solution does sound good. Some of the results of the spell are bound to be counter-intuitive, but I guess that's what comes of a poorly written, easily exploitable spell of this level. I'll just have to save the broke until the casters in my character's party pick up Epic Spellcasting. Then I can rely on poorly written epic spell seeds!:smallcool:

[Bakeru]

Fun fact: What powers does a 3 HD Succubus have? Or a 11 HD Solar? 3 HD Nymph?
Because Simulacrum breaks down when a monster has powers not linked to level/HD. Any sane DM would rule otherwise, but an 11 HD solar simulacrum would have wish. An 3 HD nymph simulacrum would have Blinding Beauty. A 3 HD succubus simulacrum could still teleport around with greater teleport.

And if you're really cheesy: The Material Component is a part of the creature you want a simulacrum from.
These parts have no listed price, therefore, Eschew Materials would let you ignore them.

Of course, it's cheese and I wouldn't apply it in an actual game (unless everyone in it exploits rules for fun), but it's delicious...

[Phelix-Mu]

Fun fact: What powers does a 3 HD Succubus have? Or a 11 HD Solar? 3 HD Nymph?
Because Simulacrum breaks down when a monster has powers not linked to level/HD. Any sane DM would rule otherwise, but an 11 HD solar simulacrum would have wish. An 3 HD nymph simulacrum would have Blinding Beauty. A 3 HD succubus simulacrum could still teleport around with greater teleport.

And if you're really cheesy: The Material Component is a part of the creature you want a simulacrum from.
These parts have no listed price, therefore, Eschew Materials would let you ignore them.

Of course, it's cheese and I wouldn't apply it in an actual game (unless everyone in it exploits rules for fun), but it's delicious...

Mmm, I have read about some of the cheese, and it is indeed, as one might suspect, cheesy.

The campaign I am currently researching for has a pretty high cheese tolerance (the DM just okay'd Epic Spellcasting). My particular tactic, as the party brain-fund character (Int over 30 w/out item), is to have her copy herself over and over, to get a bunch of researchers and crafters. I'll have to see if the DM will allow psychic reformation on the simulacra, but if necessary, I'll just have her use it over and over on herself in-between applications of simulacrum. Minimal impact on combat effectiveness, but it stands to significantly multiply the party's ability to effect the world around them (more boots on the ground).

My character loves to read, and via Rary's telepathic bond or somesuch, she can multitask like a champ, along with all manner of other out-of-combat action economy optimization. Since my character has a template that makes it so that she doesn't breathe, eat, or sleep, and only has 3 spell levels of utility stuff, she can just stash the simulacra wherever and have them work all of the time. Via Diplomacy and the fact that my character's actual personality is highly disciplined and dedicated, I shouldn't have to worry about Psycho Simulacrum Syndrome.

There is so much voidspace in this spell, though. You'd think an ability like "now there are two of you (-ish)" would have provoked more rules clarification.

[Coidzor]

4.) A copy is made of a multiclass character. The spell specifies 50% of class levels, but it doesn't nail down which 50% of class levels. Is the creator of the simulacrum free to choose the class makeup of the copy?

I'd say that it is whatever mix of class levels best represents a weaker version of the character, so even if it was a character that was Fighter 10/Rogue 5/Wizard 5, taken Fighter 10 then Rogue 5 then Wizard 5, it'd still be Fighter 5/Rogue 2/Wizard 2 with a coin flip to determine whether Rogue or Wizard got the odd level rather than being a Fighter 10.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd say that it is whatever mix of class levels best represents a weaker version of the character, so even if it was a character that was Fighter 10/Rogue 5/Wizard 5, taken Fighter 10 then Rogue 5 then Wizard 5, it'd still be Fighter 5/Rogue 2/Wizard 2 with a coin flip to determine whether Rogue or Wizard got the odd level rather than being a Fighter 10.

I totally agree on this point, and was mainly interested in if a reading could be made to make the simulacrum customizable. After all, beyond saying "less levels/HD/feats/skills, half of the spell description is basically "make it look like what you want it to look like." (From the assumption that an intentionally bad Disguise check plausibly let's you make the thing look like whatever.) This gives you some customization, and in any case, you have to select feats and skills from those the target has with a new eye to qualification and interaction of skills, class features, and pre-reqs.

With all of this possible variation between copies, I just wanted to up the ante a bit and cherrypick class levels. The simulacrums of my monk17/conjurer1/abj.champ5/swordsage1/shadowsunninja1 are going to be interesting, whatever the outcome, especially considering the template.

How about grafts and other physical alterations to a character? Any thoughts?

[TuggyNE]

Fun fact: What powers does a 3 HD Succubus have? Or a 11 HD Solar? 3 HD Nymph?
Because Simulacrum breaks down when a monster has powers not linked to level/HD. Any sane DM would rule otherwise, but an 11 HD solar simulacrum would have wish. An 3 HD nymph simulacrum would have Blinding Beauty. A 3 HD succubus simulacrum could still teleport around with greater teleport.

Aside from the Solar, those are actually perfectly fine. Even the Solar example has a similar printed monster; the Adamantine Horror (there's only one) has, if memory serves, both implosion and disjunction. And it's CR 11 or something terrible like that.

Keep in mind that these monsters, if encountered by PCs, are not going to have halved CRs or anything like that (which is really where the problem comes from, I think).

[Phelix-Mu]

Keep in mind that these monsters, if encountered by PCs, are not going to have halved CRs or anything like that (which is really where the problem comes from, I think).

Oh, I just had a beautiful thought involving deepspawn and mind swap abuse.