Can you track by scent while using the Shadow Walk spell?

[123456789blaaa]

So I asked in the Simple Questions thread:


Can you track by scent while using the Shadow Walk spell?

Curmudgeon replied with:


No.


Because of the blurring of reality between the Plane of Shadow and the Material Plane, you can’t make out details of the terrain or areas you pass over during transit, nor can you predict perfectly where your travel will end.

The "can't make out details" limitation isn't specific to any particular sense, so it encompasses visual, auditory, and olfactory perceptions.

I disputed this by saying:


I actually think this is wrong. The full text says "can’t make out details of the terrain or areas you pass over during transit". Odor and sound waves aren't part of the terrain or area, they float in the air.


I made this thread in case Curmudgeon wants to dispute my dispute (as per the Simple Questions thread rules).

[TuggyNE]

I don't think "terrain" is really the limiting factor here; the idea is that you can't see or hear or smell or whatever much of anything while shadow walking along. In point of fact, while you can see vague outlines of "terrain and areas", you can't necessarily pick out much of anything else; "terrain and areas" is more like the upper limit of what you can discern.

[123456789blaaa]

I don't think "terrain" is really the limiting factor here; the idea is that you can't see or hear or smell or whatever much of anything while shadow walking along. In point of fact, while you can see vague outlines of "terrain and areas", you can't necessarily pick out much of anything else; "terrain and areas" is more like the upper limit of what you can discern.

I can't really see anything like that in the text. Could you quote the portion that says this?

[Crake]

I can't really see anything like that in the text. Could you quote the portion that says this?

You might be able to argue that RAW would let you use scent with shadow walk simply due to omission of text regarding smell, but really, you'd be hard pressed to find a DM that would agree.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, by fluff a DM could rule that Scent functions only poorly during any rapid transit spell or ability. You smell everything within x area, but you are moving through an area hundreds of time greater. Your nose is assailed by a mishmash of scents. There are things in game that establish that very strong smells obscure other smells, and so only the strongest smells on your rapid travel might get through.

I think it's pretty much in the DM's hands.

[TuggyNE]

I can't really see anything like that in the text. Could you quote the portion that says this?

It's implied by
Because of the blurring of reality between the Plane of Shadow and the Material Plane, you can’t make out details of the terrain or areas you pass over during transit, nor can you predict perfectly where your travel will end. It’s impossible to judge distances accurately, making the spell virtually useless for scouting or spying.

The whole idea is that it's quite difficult to make out exactly what's where in relation to much of anything. Even if you could make out a given scent, you wouldn't be able to tell exactly where it was, I'd think.

[Urpriest]

More to the point, any writeup on the Plane of Shadow will tell you that the Plane of Shadow has similar terrain and structures to the Material Plane. It doesn't have the same creatures, so it won't have the same scents or sounds. You're not actually seeing the Material Plane, you're just able to steer because the Plane of Shadow is similar-looking.

[123456789blaaa]

You might be able to argue that RAW would let you use scent with shadow walk simply due to omission of text regarding smell, but really, you'd be hard pressed to find a DM that would agree.

Why?

I mean it's not gamebreaking in the least and it's also really cool. Picture this: A silent tracker zooming across a shadowy mirror landscape, not seeing anything but blindly following the scent to the target. That's awesome.


Well, by fluff a DM could rule that Scent functions only poorly during any rapid transit spell or ability. You smell everything within x area, but you are moving through an area hundreds of time greater. Your nose is assailed by a mishmash of scents. There are things in game that establish that very strong smells obscure other smells, and so only the strongest smells on your rapid travel might get through.

I think it's pretty much in the DM's hands.

I should have specified that I'm looking for RAW here. The DMG says that how things work in RL only comes into play if the rules don't cover it. As far as I can see this is not the case here. Besides, it's not like tracking through the spell breaks verisimilitude.


It's implied by

The whole idea is that it's quite difficult to make out exactly what's where in relation to much of anything. Even if you could make out a given scent, you wouldn't be able to tell exactly where it was, I'd think.

The "blurring of reality" is a very vague phrase that doesn't really mean anything without more explanation. The only concrete effect it has is given in the same sentence so I think we can safely ignore it. As for "not being able to judge distance accurately"...I'm not seeing how that prevents tracking by scent. If you're saying that it prevents navigation than I'd point out that that interpretation makes the normal use of the spell impossible as well. How are you getting from one place to another using the spell if you don't even know where you're going?


More to the point, any writeup on the Plane of Shadow will tell you that the Plane of Shadow has similar terrain and structures to the Material Plane. It doesn't have the same creatures, so it won't have the same scents or sounds. You're not actually seeing the Material Plane, you're just able to steer because the Plane of Shadow is similar-looking.

Ah but you see, the Shadow Walk spell doesn't actually transport you to the Plane of Shadow: it transports you to the edge of the Material Plane where it borders the Plane of Shadow. You're still on the Material Plane ( excerpt:"the effect is largely illusory, but the path is quasi-real") there's just some spooky illusory special effects and the speed increase.

[TuggyNE]

If you're saying that it prevents navigation than I'd point out that that interpretation makes the normal use of the spell impossible as well. How are you getting from one place to another using the spell if you don't even know where you're going?

You only have a dim idea of where you are from being able to pick out echoes and distant shapes, as it were. Scents, if even present at all (as Urpriest noted) are likely to be strongly attenuated and scrambled, making it nearly impossible to do anything with them.

Also, it's not clear you can go any slower than 50mph, which would enforce a further ridiculously high penalty on tracking. (RAW, it would actually forbid it entirely; there is no provision, even in the ELH, for tracking at more than twice your speed.)


Ah but you see, the Shadow Walk spell doesn't actually transport you to the Plane of Shadow: it transports you to the edge of the Material Plane where it borders the Plane of Shadow. You're still on the Material Plane ( excerpt:"the effect is largely illusory, but the path is quasi-real") there's just some spooky illusory special effects and the speed increase.

Not so, but far otherwise:
Thus, you can use this spell to travel rapidly by stepping onto the Plane of Shadow, moving the desired distance, and then stepping back onto the Material Plane.
[…]
Any creatures touched by you when shadow walk is cast also make the transition to the borders of the Plane of Shadow.

They may opt to follow you, wander off through the plane, or stumble back into the Material Plane (50% chance for either of the latter results if they are lost or abandoned by you). Creatures unwilling to accompany you into the Plane of Shadow receive a Will saving throw, negating the effect if successful.

Bolded indicates that not only are you going to the borders, you're going right onto the plane.

[Fyermind]

I am a little confused here. I first thought you meant if somebody uses shadow walk can you also shadow walk and use your ability to track to hunt them down on the plane of shadow. To that, my answer is yes, of course note that you will be traveling at a slower speed in most likelihood.

It seems however that you meant can you, while shadow walking, track someone who is not shadow walking, to which my answer would be no. You aren't even on the same plane.

[Robs]

I can see a DM saying yes. Rule of cool says yes.

example: Hurin (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Hurin) in The Wheel of Time.

[Keneth]

Since you're not on the material plane anymore, there's no way I'd ever let a player track someone by scent in the Plane of Shadow. Material plane doesn't seep into the Plane of Shadow, it just borders on it.

[123456789blaaa]

You only have a dim idea of where you are from being able to pick out echoes and distant shapes, as it were. Scents, if even present at all (as Urpriest noted) are likely to be strongly attenuated and scrambled, making it nearly impossible to do anything with them.

But...it doesn't say that anywhere. Why would the scents be strongly attenuated and scrambled? The "blurring of reality" doesn't actually mean anything as we have previously established and why would
not being able to judge distances make you unable to follow a scent once you've locked onto it?


Also, it's not clear you can go any slower than 50mph, which would enforce a further ridiculously high penalty on tracking. (RAW, it would actually forbid it entirely; there is no provision, even in the ELH, for tracking at more than twice your speed.)

I don't see anything about increased speed enforcing a penalty in the table :smallconfused:.

The text says " You move at half your normal speed (or at your normal speed with a -5 penalty on the check, or at up to twice your normal speed with a -20 penalty on the check).". While how this interacts with Shadow Walk is unclear (it depends on what you think "normal speed" is) I don't see anything there that prevents tracking at all. Some options I can see are:

The text of Shadow Walk overwriting the text on moving half your normal speed.

Your "normal speed" being the Shadow Walk speed so that's cut in half.

You moving at half your base speed while Shadow Walking.

Why would any of these prevent tracking at all?


Not so, but far otherwise:

Bolded indicates that not only are you going to the borders, you're going right onto the plane.

On the other hand we also have these:


to the edge of the Material Plane where it borders the Plane of Shadow


moving normally on the borders of the Plane of Shadow


Any creatures touched by you when shadow walk is cast also make the transition to the borders of the Plane of Shadow.

I believe this simply means that you are simultaneously on the borders of both the Material Plane and the Plane of Shadow (just as you can be on the borders of both Mexico and the US at the same time). So you are both in the Plane of Shadow and in the Material Plane.

The thing is though, that the effect of being in the Plane of Shadow is mostly illusory. The text directly says so. It's not all illusory which is why the text can refer to you going into the Plane of Shadow but most of it is. The scents and sounds of the Material Plane are still there.


I am a little confused here. I first thought you meant if somebody uses shadow walk can you also shadow walk and use your ability to track to hunt them down on the plane of shadow. To that, my answer is yes, of course note that you will be traveling at a slower speed in most likelihood.

It seems however that you meant can you, while shadow walking, track someone who is not shadow walking, to which my answer would be no. You aren't even on the same plane.


Since you're not on the material plane anymore, there's no way I'd ever let a player track someone by scent in the Plane of Shadow. Material plane doesn't seep into the Plane of Shadow, it just borders on it.

See above.

[Chronos]

The Scent ability has a range limit. "On an entirely different plane of reality" is certainly well outside that range limit.

[Keneth]

The path to the border is mostly illusory, but then you enter the Plane of Shadow and travel along its borders, which is not an illusion. You can step back onto the Material Plane at any time (assuming you remain on the border), but you can not be on both sides of the border. Furthermore, only the physical features of the Material Plane are vaguely reflected on the Plane of Shadow (as in terrain). Sound, smell, and other features don't translate into the shadow region. So no, you can't spy, track, scout, pounce, or do any other precise task in relation to the Material Plane.

[123456789blaaa]

The Scent ability has a range limit. "On an entirely different plane of reality" is certainly well outside that range limit.

See above please.


The path to the border is mostly illusory, but then you enter the Plane of Shadow and travel along its borders, which is not an illusion. You can step back onto the Material Plane at any time (assuming you remain on the border), but you can not be on both sides of the border. Furthermore, only the physical features of the Material Plane are vaguely reflected on the Plane of Shadow (as in terrain). Sound, smell, and other features don't translate into the shadow region. So no, you can't spy, track, scout, pounce, or do any other precise task in relation to the Material Plane.

You've got it backwards. Let's look at the text again:


You and any creature you touch are then transported along a coiling path of shadowstuff to the edge of the Material Plane where it borders the Plane of Shadow. The effect is largely illusory, but the path is quasi-real.[/B]

And again, I've presented my argument as too why I think you don't get transported into the Plane of Shadow. Furthermore, the text specifically says


Because of the blurring of reality between the Plane of Shadow and the Material Plane, you can’t make out details of the terrain or areas you pass over during transit, nor can you predict perfectly where your travel will end. It’s impossible to judge distances accurately, making the spell virtually useless for scouting or spying.

They specifically put the bolded portion to prevent scouting and spying. Why would they put that in if you were transported fully into the Plane of Shadow? This indicates that if it weren't for not being able to judge distances accurately you would be able to scout and spy.

[Chronos]

You travel through an illusory path to the border between planes, and then you cross over that border into the plane of shadow.

[TuggyNE]

Tracking speed only has a certain RAW set of limits, based on your normal speed; shadow walk does not, as far as I can tell, either change the limits or change your normal speed. What's more, you go at a fixed rate; no throttling allowed. As such, unless your base speed is 25mph or more, you just can't track at all without houserules. Such houserules should probably take into account the increased difficulty, which means the penalties are higher.

As Keneth and Chronos indicated, the illusory/semi-real bit is the Illusion (shadow) path to the Plane of Shadow. Those go together; that's fairly standard fluff for (shadow) subschool spells.

[Keneth]

And again, I've presented my argument as too why I think you don't get transported into the Plane of Shadow.

But your argument bears no weight because the part specifically refers to the coiling path that takes you to the border and not the actual travel on the Plane of Shadow. You do enter the Plane of Shadow.


They specifically put the bolded portion to prevent scouting and spying. Why would they put that in if you were transported fully into the Plane of Shadow?

Because the Plane of Shadow is, in fact, a shadowy, twisted duplicate of the Material Plane. It is not a feature of its border, it's a feature of the plane as a whole. They had to include that part so that players like yourself don't get any smart ideas about using the Plane of Shadow for anything other than travel as far as its relation to the Material is concerned.

[Psyren]

The closest thing I can find to a cite is that MotP says scents are faint on the PoS. Whether this means tracking by scent is impossible, or possible but difficult (and how difficult), depends on the DM - there's no point wrangling over silent rules.

[Keneth]

Yes, but that's describing scents and sounds that originate on the Plane of Shadow, which you probably would be able to track in some manner, though it's up to the DM to determine how. Tracking a scent originating on the Material Plane is impossible, since the smell is not replicated.

Since you mentioned MotP, I decided to skim over the Plane of Shadow section and found this.

The most common way to visit the Plane of Shadow is to use the shadow walk spell for fast travel from one point to another on the Material Plane. The spell moves its targets up to seven miles per 10 minutes on the Plane of Shadow, regardless of one's normal speed. Such travel happens entirely on the Plane of Shadow, so travelers don't see much of the intervening terrain on the Material Plane. Ending the spell returns the travelers to the Material Plane, again in a shadowy location if possible.

Bolded part mine. Maybe we can put this thing to rest now.

[TuggyNE]

Maybe we can put this thing to rest now.

Never!! Seriously though, that seems rather conclusive.

[Psyren]

Was that really in debate all this time? That's what I get for not reading everything I guess :smallconfused:

Anyway, yes - the spell itself makes this clear:


Thus, you can use this spell to travel rapidly by stepping onto the Plane of Shadow, moving the desired distance, and then stepping back onto the Material Plane.

So both the PHB and MoTP agree - you're on the PoS if you're using the spell to move anywhere. Hell, the spell lets you go to other planes that border the PoS, which only makes sense if you're actually there, rather than on the Material but toeing the line or something.

[123456789blaaa]

Yup, this is over now. Thanks everyone for helping me :smallbiggrin:.

I'm a little sad though...it would have been pretty cool if you could've done it :smallsigh:.

[Chronos]

I have actually toyed with the idea of a prestige class based on transdimensional scent. Not sure what inspired the idea, though.

[123456789blaaa]

I have actually toyed with the idea of a prestige class based on transdimensional scent. Not sure what inspired the idea, though.

Kezef the Chaos Hound maybe? He's a unique outsider from Champions of Ruin. While he doesn't actually have the normal scent ability, he does have the unique ability to follow a beings "emotional scent" and track them anywhere.

Actually, if you're willing to do a bit of refluffing you don't have to create homebrew. The Consecrated Harrier PRC from Complete Divine has the ability to always know in which direction a specific target they have wounded lies (as well as the approximate distance between them). At level 10 they can do this to one person across planar boundaries. This ability could easily be fluffed as scent (what's more, they can pinpoint the targets specific location if the target is within 50 feet of them).