Depopulating Hell via Bunnies

[Skysaber]

Hey all,

I was just helping out another playgrounder with some epic constructs he wanted to build, and right about the time we got his price to create an Iron Colossus from one million down to 24,500gp, I got the idea "Hey, you know I've still got five million lying around in that Netheril campaign. Why don't I do this?"

At less than 25k per, you could have 40 Iron Colossi per million, so five mil would turn into 200 Iron Colossi, a respectable figure by anyone's standards.

But it lacked a certain something. It just wasn't insane enough for Netheril. I mean, if your culture is going to be infamous over thousands of years for its amazing overabundance of magic. If your people are going to be remembered for having kicked Mystryl out of office for just not being Mary Sue enough, by all means don't hold back!

There is, in the Book of Templates, rules for making constructs shaped like other creatures, and even with the powers of the base creature. I used this to make some Stone Golem Beholders for my enclave just so I could have them wear dark helmets and be addressed as Officer Vader. But what would be suitably impressive as a base to use for Iron Colossi? What could be so foul, so cruel, that no creature could fight with it and live?

Of course! A bunny rabbit!

A quick trip into Encyclopedia Arcane: Crossbreeding, and we have a mix of Bunny with Razor Boar out of the back of MMII. This gives it that all-important Vorpal Bite. Throw on the Monster of Legend template via those rituals in the back of Savage Species to give it a 15ft breath weapon. Drop the Titanic template onto it from that same MMII and now we've got a gargantuan bunny rabbit with 25HD, 20 natural armor, attacks doing 6D8 and a breath weapon twelve times the size it was before!

Then throw on Dungeonbred to make it only huge. Why? Because that's the maximum size of creature you can apply the Kaiju template onto! (from Dragon Magazine #289). Hit dice get increased by another 40, of course.

We now have a colossal bunny rabbit breathing clouds of radioactive acid and sending shockwaves through the earth with every hop!

Best of all, one of the Kaiju options that we will most certainly apply is to grant it the spell-like ability of Minute Form 3/day, so it can shrink down to a teeny tiny adorable little puffball that no one has to be scared of, because "Oh, it's just a harmless little bunny."

Of course, this was just the base creature. Give it an insatiable hunger for orc flesh and release it into the wild, as we don't need it anymore.

Our Iron Colossi can now be constructed possessing every power of the little kaiju bunny, only with a much more impressive 288 Hit Dice, epic damage reduction, and other goodies. Throw on the Woundhealing Construct template out of, once again, the Book of Templates, and each Mecha Go-Bunny gains Fast Healing each to half its hit dice.

Wait? What? Yup! That works out to Fast Healing 144 on our Mecha Go-Bunnies, on top of their already epic damage reduction, immunity to magic, and so on.

Sacred Guardian gives them an Int score, so our bunnies can have 291 ranks in a few skills like Spot, Listen, and Stomp Major Metropolitan Areas (aka Jump and Shockwave).

I'm thinking the epic feat that gives you infinite attacks of opportunity per round on top of all of those feats out of Dragon Magazine that give extra attacks of opportunity on just about any pretext to go with it's 65ft reach. And of course the Power Attack/Uber-Charger line just because we are insane.

Encyclopedia Arcane: Constructs even comes to our rescue with the ability to grant our Mecha Go-Bunnies the Body Outside Body spell usable on itself every D4+1 rounds, so we can properly multiply. We can do this because Magic Immunity = Infinite Spell Resistance, and Spell Resistance can be waived for an effect that you want to receive.

At around this point, invading hell to slaughter the denizens seems like an appropriate way to spend a weekend relaxing.

[Blackhawk748]

.................................mother of god ................................................. JERRY!!!! WHERE DID WE PUT THE HOLY ANTIMATTER CLUSTER GRENADES?????

[dspeyer]

rules for making constructs shaped like other creatures, and even with the powers of the base creature

Does this include the ability to breed like rabbits? If so, you may have completely doomed whatever plane these are unleashed on.

[Os1ris09]

I feel like I must now start my holy quest to not find the sacred grail but alas the holy hand grenade of antiok and pray that its divine might is enough to at least provide some form of fast healing reduction let alone destroy these foul but adorable beasts of an abomination that have been created.

Failing my quest I will just plane jump to another plane and hope/pray/whatever I need to do to keep my self from being discovered by these fluff balls that are so labeled bunnies.

[Mithril Leaf]

You've got just one issue. You're not optimizing enough. Here's the overoptimized E6 Artificer trick, from me to you.
Iron Collusi have buttloads of Hit Dice.
Sacred Guardians can gain both rebuke and turn undead.
Sacred Guardians gain feats, in this case epic feats.
You can qualify for Planar Turning at that level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#planarTurning)
You can rebuke the lords of heaven and hell with your iron bunnies.
I chose Malcanthet as my head concubine, she's the most classically beautiful.

[Blackhawk748]

JERRY!!! SCREW THE CLUSTER BOMBS! WHERES THE IPBAM???? (interplanar ballistic antimatter missile)

[Skysaber]

I'm still having brilliant yet insane flashes of insight on this.

For example, one of the Kaiju feats our bunny can obtain is to gain a ranged attack of whatever theme seems appropriate. Well, what could be more appropriate than for it to launch itself at its foes?

This also enables it to use that Ranger spell that makes any ranged attack an auto threat-to-crit. With all of the hit dice our bunnies have, they will confirm, and their bite is already vorpal, so they will auto-behead one creature per round.

Also, I forgot to add that with enough metamagic reducers, we can make their innate Body Outside Body ability both Persisted and Extended, so those clones will each last 48 hours AND each clone ALSO still possesses the innate Body Outside Body ability to produce more 48 hour clones!

How would any creature even FIND which are the original 200 Mecha Go-Bunnies to put a stop to this?

At this point my mind hearkens back to an old Planescape adventure, where some faction or other had gradually, and unintentionally, been turning one of the Lawful Good planes into yet another plane of Mechanus just by being there, being exceptionally lawful, and not particularly good.

It seems if any plane was slow to change it ought to be the lawful ones. So if I were to unleash my bunnies on one of the chaotic ones to fill it with cuteness and laughter (and the screams of dying demons) that we could steal a dozen or so layers of the Abyss pretty easily.


I chose Malcanthet as my head concubine, she's the most classically beautiful.

Oh! And when she levels up she can start taking the Thrall of You prestige class!

[Mithril Leaf]

I stand by my assertion that bringing the whole lower cosmology under your heel is better than merely murdering it.

[kulosle]

Umm.. wow? i don't know, i don't think that is enough. Just too dumbfounded. umm where is all this from? cause i've never heard of Encyclopedia Arcane or book of template. And how much does it cost to make just one of these? Also where is this ritual to add the monster of legend template?

[Golden Ladybug]

http://picnicwithants.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/doctorcantfix.jpg?w=620
...
...
...
...
...Well played, Good Sir. Well Played.

[Silverbit]

What. This, good sir, is awesome. Scarily so.
I wonder if the Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) can beat it?

[Doorhandle]

No. They can SURVIVE it, that goes without question, but they simply don't have the damage/second needed to destroy monsters of that ilk. And even with the full help of a cabal of munckin illithids, it can but stem the tide...

Also I was missing these silly munchkin threads of insane awesomeness. Thank you for bringing them back!

[Osiris]

Wait, illithids- can you give them retractible huge brain (know what, they'd be house-eating) tentacles (retractible for cute bunny form :) ) OP! I applaud you, sir! Also, I agree with the other guys, get the IPBAM and the holy hand grenade of fast healing removal.

GOT IT! The, erm, emerald legion can have a wizard cast Trait removal, but I forget which book it's from. Stock up on chain metamagic rods! What do you say to THAT, you evil radioactive tremorstomping gargantuan (not really, just ranting) mastodon that is the Colossal Bunny of DEATH!

(enjoy the rant?) :smalltongue:
EDIT: Therefore, we need an artificer/wizard/cleric to make sanctified IPBAM hand grenade/atom bomb imbued with Chained Trait Removal.

[Alleran]

GOT IT! The, erm, emerald legion can have a wizard cast Trait removal, but I forget which book it's from.
Serpent Kingdoms. That said, I'm not sure if Trait Removal has to get past SR or not.

[Amnestic]

There is, in the Book of Templates, rules for making constructs shaped like other creatures, and even with the powers of the base creature.

It surprises me that "base creature" allows templates. When I hear 'base creature', I hear 'human', not 'Mineral Warrior Lolth Touched Half Minotaur Dragonborn Half Fiend...Human'. Perhaps a rules failure. It's 3rd party, so doesn't surprise me.


We can do this because Magic Immunity = Infinite Spell Resistance, and Spell Resistance can be waived for an effect that you want to receive.


Magic Immunity (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm)
An iron colossus is immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. An electricity effect restores 1 hit point to the iron colossus for each 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal.



I see no mention of Spell Resistance or the ability to waive magic immunity. Source?

[Harrow]

A Truenamer could take one of these out. I'm not even sure it would have to be epic level. All of a Truenamer's spells can ignore SR, so they can hit these things. I'm sure there's got to be something on there spell list that can take one of these things down if used liberally enough.

I need to know what I'm working with. What CR are these things? (Honestly, this question was the worst part about playing a Truenamer for a year and a half)

Edit : Darn, these things don't have the standard Golem ability Immune to Magic, they have the more Epic-related Magic Immune ability, which despite what the names would have you think is something completely different. It's the same thing Demi liches have.

[Story]

At any rate, an epic spell can always do it.

[Silva Stormrage]

I see no mention of Spell Resistance or the ability to waive magic immunity. Source?

Thats the 3.0 version of SR, in 3.5 all sources of SR were changed to infinite spell resistance.

Also you can willingly suppress your own racial immunities. I can't remember where but there is an example of an elf suppressing his racial immunity to sleep I believe.

[Harrow]

Oh, the Iron Colossus and the Demilich I mentioned are both from the Epic Level Handbook, and that's 3.0 isn't it? So they should both be changed out for the more standard unbeatable SR.

...Which means my argument in favor of Truenamers stands :smallcool: :smalltongue:

So, what CR are these horrifying abominations?

[Amnestic]

Thats the 3.0 version of SR, in 3.5 all sources of SR were changed to infinite spell resistance.

That's the SRD, which I assumed was up to date with the latest updates.

The Rules Compendium states:

IMMUNITY TO MAGIC
A creature that has this characteristic is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. Certain spells and effects might function differently against the creature, as noted in its description.

"Immune to any spell that allows spell resistance" is not the same as "infinite spell resistance".

Please explain why "Magic Immunity (Ex)" updates from 3.0 to 3.5 into "infinite spell resistance" and not "Immunity to Magic"?

Also the Epic Level Handbook 3.0->3.5 update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) also says nothing about changing that aspect of the Iron Colossus.

Seriously, if I'm wrong then that's fine, but I can't see anything to say I am.

Even if I am, they still need to get past the projected AMF* which has no clause about being able to lower it at will. It only allows the Colossus' Su effects to pierce it as an exception, and the OP specifies that they're utilising a Spell (or more likely an SLA, but still not a Su).

*
Antimagic Field (Ex)

A colossus constantly generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the colossus’s own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster.

A colossus’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

[Randomguy]

You need to give them either ranged attacks or flight. Even if flying demons won't be able to kill them, they'll be able to escape. You're basically handing the entire abyss to Pazuzu.

Actually, stopping demons from escaping might be a problem, since they can all teleport at will. You might need to invest in hide and move silently so that the bunnies aren't spotted until after the demon is in the antimagic field.

[gomipile]

"
(Anya) I've got a theory, it could be bunnies...
- all pause - [crickets chirp]

(Tara) I've got a theor-
(Anya) Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes,
They've got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses.
And what's with all the carrots-?
What do they need such good eyesight for anywa - y?
Bunnies, bunnies it must be bunnies!"

[ShadowFireLance]

..Sweet idea, What happens when you throw My Legion of Abyssal Death at it?
Just...*Is Caulculating* 5 Of my Legion can take down one of your Iron Colossi.
we might have to find a DM and duel this out. You willing? :smallcool:

Also, How in Tiamat's name did you manage to get a Iron Colossi down to 24K?

[Urpriest]

You've got just one issue. You're not optimizing enough. Here's the overoptimized E6 Artificer trick, from me to you.
Iron Collusi have buttloads of Hit Dice.
Sacred Guardians can gain both rebuke and turn undead.
Sacred Guardians gain feats, in this case epic feats.
You can qualify for Planar Turning at that level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#planarTurning)
You can rebuke the lords of heaven and hell with your iron bunnies.
I chose Malcanthet as my head concubine, she's the most classically beautiful.

...ok, I'll bite. How do you manage this in E6?

[Mithril Leaf]

...ok, I'll bite. How do you manage this in E6?

It was with a gestalt of two of Gnorman's classes and a very optimized intelligence score. It also assumes that if a construct offers a cost to increase it's hit dice, it goes beyond the max number listed in advancement, simply not gaining any more size increases. Basically nothing practical for most play, but was a for fun game with a lenient DM so that's how I remember it.

[rweird]

Seeing as your using 3rd party and breaking the game like that, why use Iron Colossi, why not Neutronium Golems? They are better in every way (excepts they don't have an AMF, though they make up for that by doing at least 1d1000 divine fire damage in a 600 mile radius).

[Deaxsa]

What are we to call this? Iron bunny colossi?

[Jack_Simth]

Also, I forgot to add that with enough metamagic reducers, we can make their innate Body Outside Body ability both Persisted and Extended, so those clones will each last 48 hours AND each clone ALSO still possesses the innate Body Outside Body ability to produce more 48 hour clones!

How would any creature even FIND which are the original 200 Mecha Go-Bunnies to put a stop to this?

They don't have to. Each BOB clone has 1/4 the HP of the prior clone. They very quickly no longer have the HP to take even a single hit, and eventually no longer have even a single HP. There is a strict limit on how many of these beasties that can be running around self-cloned at a time (and I'm don't have enough detail on the beasties to do the math right now). When you're tossing a finite number of critters into planes that are defined as infinite to start an all-out war, well, you're going to lose your investment.

But you'll put a dent. Let's just hope they don't copy the method and return the favor, eh?

[urkthegurk]

I think I might be inspired to whip up some art for this. But it might take a few weeks.

[kulosle]

I swear i remember there is a way to turn a spell like ability into a supernatural ability, i ran a campaign where a warlock did that.

[Renen]

Its dangerous to go alone, take this!
http://www.nunoncastors.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/holyhandgrenade.jpg

Also, I might have missed this but how DO you get iron golems for 25k?

[Jack_Simth]

I swear i remember there is a way to turn a spell like ability into a supernatural ability, i ran a campaign where a warlock did that.3.0, Savage Species, Supernatural Transformation feat.

[kulosle]

3.0, Savage Species, Supernatural Transformation feat.

yeah so this get around the anti-magic field problem.

[Seer_of_Heart]

So how much health do the bunnies have? Lets set a loose limit on how many there can be at once. Perhaps the bunnies should get chained delay death available too so that the higher iteration ones don't die after 1 damage.

[Spuddles]

So how much health do the bunnies have? Lets set a loose limit on how many there can be at once. Perhaps the bunnies should get chained delay death available too so that the higher iteration ones don't die after 1 damage.

As constructs, they have no death to delay.

[Jack_Simth]

yeah so this get around the anti-magic field problem.No it doesn't - Supernatural Abilities are suppressed in an Antimagic Field.

[Skysaber]

Almost forgot to mention my naming scheme. The first Kaiju was Gojira, so my base creature was the Go-Bunny. But Gojira had a robot double named Mecha Gojira, ergo my golems are the Mecha Go-Bunnies!

Also, people have brought up the Emerald Legion, which brings to mind lots of things that get damage immunity by playing tricks with Regeneration. So, the moment my Netherese Archmage gets reminded of this by his adorable little fluffy horde encountering resistance from such an enemy he can take the original 200 back into his shop and add Grimwald's Graymantle to the Mecha Go-Bunnies as a supernatural ability - which means that save DC for that is now based on the formula for supernatural abilities, which is 10 + half the creature's hit dice + an ability modifier.

BWAHAHAHA!!!!

Since half of their hit dice is 144, and we're looking at a save DC of 154 no matter what ability we pick to back it, it's safe to say that very little is going to resist when my bunnies nibble upon them!

But 'good enough' is just not insane enough! So we'll add Unluck so our victims have to make every roll twice and take the worst one, and Remove Trait as further supernatural abilities, all three applied with every nibble!

Sure, that costs a little extra, but what does cost concern us when the happiness of my bunnies is at stake?

The Emerald Legion is now just more munchies!

And apparently, in my raving, I forgot to mention that my adorable puff-balls will be taking the Supernatural Transformation feat out of Savage Species for each of their spell-like abilities, turning them into supernatural ones that are given a special exemption to operate inside of their antimagic fields.

They can also take the Crush feat to sit on someone to death, because it would be cute.

Also, our bunnies just need more skills. But we can fix that easily enough just by adding more intelligence to their pretty little heads! And that's easily done by taking the Rudimentary Intelligence feat and paying 8,000gp per golem. It now gains an int score equal to half my CL, and that's easily pumped with circle magic up to 40, and my Netherese Arcanist has a class feature that adds 50% to his CL when making items, so his Cl is 60 for this purpose and my Mecha Go-Bunnies enjoy an int score of 30!

Plus 2 from Sacred Guardian template.

Our fluff-balls can now be vewy vewy quiet and sneaky as they hip hop towards their prey!

Seriously, who is going to detect them coming when they have 291 ranks in both Hide and Move Silently? With their int score I could add Search, Open Locks, and Disable Device and now even hiding locked deep in your stronghold isn't going to save you from the Mecha Ninja Bunnies of DOOM!!!

Hmm, now I want to go snag my original base creature by the ruff of his neck just to add the Dark template to him, so we can have the Hide in Plain Sight ability on our golems. So it's always a surprise when they chirp and leap out at you in all of their furry goodness, because no one expects the Spanish Bunnies of the Inquisition!

I'm tempted to add Perform: Sing and Dance just to be silly. Only as a cross-class skill I'm afraid they'd only have 145 ranks in that.

Pick the appropriate Sacred Guardian type and they can command undead, which means with the epic Planar Turning feat they can now command evil outsiders, so we can get all of the lords of hell to join hands together and sing Kumbaya.

With vocal bunny accompaniment.

They already have the kaiju option allowing them to fling themselves as an attack with a 200ft range increment, doing vorpal bite damage. But what am I doing stopping with a single option? We can also take another kaiju feat to give them laser beam eyes doing 15D6 damage out to 300ft!

[The Glyphstone]

Friends don't let friends use 3rd-party sourcebooks. This is why.:smallcool:

[Randomguy]

Hang on; how come you've only given them 288 HD? I know that's the normal max but don't you have a way to give golems above the maximum number of HD?

I'm going to crunch the numbers to see how many bunnies you've got in total:
Assuming you don't give your bunnies max HP per HD you've got enough HP on the original bunny for a total of 6 generations via Body Outside Body. Each generation produces 57 clones because of how high the caster level is.
1st gen: The original 200.
2nd gen: 57*200 = 11400
3rd gen: 57^2 * 200 = 649800
4rth gen: 57^3*200 = 37 038 600
5th gen: 57^4*200 = 2 111 200 200
6th gen: 57^5 * 200 = 120 338 411 400

For a grand total of about 122.4 billion Mecha Go-Bunnies. Sadly, the vast majority of those only have 1 hit point, and most of the rest have only 6 hp so killing just one clone will kill them. (Unless you give them Delay death)

(Is that enough of them for you to stat up a Mecha Go-Bunny swarm?)

While you're at this you should probably breed a few hundred regular razorboar bunnies and release them into hell, too, about a month after your Mecha Go-Bunnies have been made, just to increase confusion. They, unlike your collossi, will reproduce. Make sure your Mecha Go-Bunnies have some points in disguise, so they can disguise themselves as normal Go-Bunnies.
Every sentient being now fears regular Go-Bunnies, and they are much stronger than most non-sentient beings, meaning they will reproduce like, well, bunnies.
In a matter of years the top few layers of the abyss will be primarily inhabited by bunnies.

[rweird]

Friends don't let friends use 3rd-party sourcebooks. This is why.:smallcool:

Permission to sig this?

I still don't see how your bunny golem supernatural abilities would work, unless you use homebrew (though seeing this, that actually might constitute as balanced, or you could find a way to give them Initiate of Mystra).

[kulosle]

No it doesn't - Supernatural Abilities are suppressed in an Antimagic Field.

But the colossus' anti-magic field says that the colossus' own supernatural abilities still get through. So you you change the spell like abilities you really want to use into supernatural abilities than you can use them. And then everyone around you still can't cast their magic.

[Jack_Simth]

But the colossus' anti-magic field says that the colossus' own supernatural abilities still get through. So you you change the spell like abilities you really want to use into supernatural abilities than you can use them. And then everyone around you still can't cast their magic.
Ah, right. OK. Missed that detail.

[Amnestic]

But the colossus' anti-magic field says that the colossus' own supernatural abilities still get through. So you you change the spell like abilities you really want to use into supernatural abilities than you can use them. And then everyone around you still can't cast their magic.

If it's granted to them, I don't think it counts as "innate", and thus is not a viable target for the Savage Species feat.

I actually looked it up. Assuming the OP means the "Spell Effect (Sp) (Special Attack or Quality)" section, it has this awesome line which reads "The Game Master has final authority on the details of the ability's workings." which kinda kicks it in the teeth right there.

More than that, I looked at the Book of Templates and "To create a kith construct, the caster must spend an appropriate amount of time in research to locate the exact animation rituals to be used (the period of time is left to DM discretion)."

It's abusing third party, ridiculous template stacking, questionable interpretations of the rules and Dragon Magazine and is still manages to fall apart at the first hurdle thanks to the geniuses who made the rules saying you have to get DM approval for it.

[Skysaber]

Friends don't let friends use 3rd-party sourcebooks. This is why.:smallcool:

Actually all of the really abusive stuff here, the Iron Colossus, the spells, all but two of the templates, the planar turning feat, are 100% WOTC material. So far I've just used a little third party as glue to link it together.


Hang on; how come you've only given them 288 HD? I know that's the normal max but don't you have a way to give golems above the maximum number of HD?

Because even after all of this time and combing through hundreds of sourcebooks I can still only exceed the normal hit die advancement cap for constructs by 6, and that made so little difference at this level it didn't seem worth pausing to explain. I'm still doing it, it just didn't call for being pointed out as it changes so little.


Assuming you don't give your bunnies max HP per HD

Having read the appropriate chapter of the Nether Scrolls, all constructs I create have max HP per HD. I'm not sure I could stop that now if I wanted to.

Still, if HP are important for your calculations it's about time that I coughed them up.

294 HD, using D10s so that's 2,940 + 80 for colossal construct + 10 for golem master, +10 for a feat I'll get to in a minute.

But wait! There's more.

Augment Construct feat grants constructs I create bonus hp per hd equal to 1/3 my CL. Well, after circle magic and class feature, my CL for this purpose is 60. So that becomes +20HP per hit die.
2 other feats each grant another +2 hp per hd to constructs I make.
(another double's my golem master's abilities to grant extra hp & hd, which is where the extra 10 noted above comes from).

So that all works out to (294 x 34) + 100 = 10,096hp for each original Mecha Go-Bunny. Final figure, near as I can tell.

34 hp per die is actually not far out of place for something that has an epic constitution score. The fun thing was getting there without one.

That's the first gen, the originals. So with that figure we can now work out how tough each generation of clones has become.
2nd gen has 2,524hp each
3rd gen has 631hp apiece
4th gen has 157hp each, and are the last able to truly appreciate their Fast Healing.
5th gen has 39hp each
6th gen has 9hp
7th has 2hp each

And because these last few gens are so squishy I am going to play a dirty, nasty trick and give my golems the False Life ability. And since this is Netheril, the spell is uncapped, so that means D10 + 294 temp hp.

I'm tempted to name the ability "Too Cute to Die."


I'm going to crunch the numbers to see how many bunnies you've got in total: you've got enough HP on the original bunny for a total of 6 generations via Body Outside Body. Each generation produces 57 clones because of how high the caster level is.
1st gen: The original 200.
2nd gen: 57*200 = 11400
3rd gen: 57^2 * 200 = 649800
4rth gen: 57^3*200 = 37 038 600
5th gen: 57^4*200 = 2 111 200 200
6th gen: 57^5 * 200 = 120 338 411 400

For a grand total of about 122.4 billion Mecha Go-Bunnies.

I hesitate to even say, but I believe that I perceive an error in your calculations. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but they can use Body Outside Body every D4+1 rounds, and I believe that your calculations above only give them each one casting.

Even if they only dedicate one round out of five to casting it, that's still two every minute, a hundred and twenty every hour, 2,880 per day, and 5,760 castings each over the course of the forty eight hours the clones will exist.

Casting it as often as they could would yield an average of once every 3.5 rounds.

And the extra HD would mean an extra bunny clone per casting as well.:smallbiggrin:


(Unless you give them Delay death)

My understanding was that constructs could not benefit from that wonderfully abusive spell.


(Is that enough of them for you to stat up a Mecha Go-Bunny swarm?)

Why yes, I believe it is.:smallbiggrin:


While you're at this you should probably breed a few hundred regular razorboar bunnies and release them into hell, too, about a month after your Mecha Go-Bunnies have been made, just to increase confusion. They, unlike your colossi, will reproduce. Make sure your Mecha Go-Bunnies have some points in disguise, so they can disguise themselves as normal Go-Bunnies.
Every sentient being now fears regular Go-Bunnies, and they are much stronger than most non-sentient beings, meaning they will reproduce like, well, bunnies.
In a matter of years the top few layers of the abyss will be primarily inhabited by bunnies.

And the HD of our clones is unchanged from the originals. Only Hp change. That means each bunny can still be wonderfully abusive at commanding the forces of darkness to do our bidding.

I picture tea parties and games of hopscotch and queuing them up in lines to get rituals to apply the Redeemed Fiend template, or to trade out Fiendish for Half-Fey.

"This site, formerly known as the Abyss, now an adjunct to the chaotic good planes..."

[The Glyphstone]

Permission to sig this?

I still don't see how your bunny golem supernatural abilities would work, unless you use homebrew (though seeing this, that actually might constitute as balanced, or you could find a way to give them Initiate of Mystra).

Go for it.:smallcool:

[ShadowFireLance]

Still killable, just a little harder to kill. :smallwink:
The Legion of Abyssal Death can still hunt down and kill them. :smallcool:

[The Glyphstone]

Actually all of the really abusive stuff here, the Iron Colossus, the spells, all but two of the templates, the planar turning feat, are 100% WOTC material. So far I've just used a little third party as glue to link it together.




That's sorta my point.:smallsmile: Without the third-party stuff, you couldn't glue it together in the first place, so by virtue of it being the most crucial ingredient, it's also the most broken.

[Coidzor]

Also, I might have missed this but how DO you get iron golems for 25k?

From what I could find that worked in the cost reduction handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0) I got about 252294.233625 gp or 252294 gp, 2 sp, and 3 or 4 cp.

35 minimum *level* to create

Wall of iron has inches of thickness every 4 CL so assuming 36 CL for the caster as a low-ball estimate.

36/4 = 9. Walls of iron are 9 inches thick.
36*5 = 180 squares worth = 900 square feet.

5*12 = 60. 60 inches by 60 inches is 3600 square inches. * 36 squares worth = 129,600 square inches of iron * 9 inches of thickness = 1,166,400 cubic inches of iron.

Density of iron is about 0.284 pounds per cubic inch.

1,166,400 * 0.284 = 331,257.6 pounds per casting of wall of iron.

So 1 casting of Wall of Iron gets the iron for two iron colossi with some to spare for the cost of 50 gp, unless one has a way to get the spell cast as an SLA.

X * .284 = 150,000
150,000/.284 = X

X = 528,169 cubic inches of iron for an iron colossus

1 casting of fabricate can process 62208 cubic inches of iron.

It requires 8.49 castings of Fabricate to process all of the iron into the statue. Fudge it to 10 to account for joining the individual components. Not really relevant to the cost as long as it can work given enough castings of Fabricate.

Subtract 100,500(cost of body) from total 1,000,000 gp cost to *create* = 899,500 gp.

Apprentice Craftsman *.90 = 809550
Extraordinary Artisan *.75 = 607162.5
Binding Colossal Elemental(?) *.80 = 485730
Magical Artisan *.75 = 364297.5
Membership in guild *.90 = 327857.75
Favored in Guild in Arcane Guild *.95 = 311474.3625
Artificer's Dump (Dr350) *.90 = 280326.92625
Affiliation *.90 = 252294.233625

[Story]

Why stop at CL40/60? I think you can apply the bonuses in the most beneficial order, so just boost CL to 40 via Circle Magic and apply all the normal CL boosters after that. At the very least you'd have +4 Spell Power and +1 from Ioun Stone and Create Magic Tattoo.

And that's just scratching the surface. Limited Wishing a Consumptive Field increases your CL by 50% (uncapped as far as I can tell).

[Amnestic]

Actually all of the really abusive stuff here, the Iron Colossus, the spells, all but two of the templates, the planar turning feat, are 100% WOTC material. So far I've just used a little third party as glue to link it together.




Kind of important that the entire centre piece is third party.

It's also not correct regardless. You said add the Monster of Legend template then Titanic - Monster of Legend changes type to Outsider and Titanic requires you to be Animal or Vermin. Dungeonbred also can't be applied to Outsiders. Nor can Kaiju, for that matter.

"Finally, all Kaiju are one of a kind. No two are exactly alike and each one in your campaign should be individually crafted and given a unique personality."

Meaning that, once again, they're under the purview of the DM. It's not a template that a player can just willy-nilly "apply" to a creature.

Serious question: When you're relying on multiple instances of "Your DM has to allow this or even create it themselves", dragon magazine and the centre-piece is third party...why not just homebrew it? You're already working outside the WotC rules.

[Skysaber]

If it's granted to them, I don't think it counts as "innate", and thus is not a viable target for the Savage Species feat.

I actually looked it up. Assuming the OP means the "Spell Effect (Sp) (Special Attack or Quality)" section, it has this awesome line which reads "The Game Master has final authority on the details of the ability's workings." which kinda kicks it in the teeth right there.

More than that, I looked at the Book of Templates and "To create a kith construct, the caster must spend an appropriate amount of time in research to locate the exact animation rituals to be used (the period of time is left to DM discretion)."

It's abusing third party, ridiculous template stacking, questionable interpretations of the rules and Dragon Magazine and is still manages to fall apart at the first hurdle thanks to the geniuses who made the rules saying you have to get DM approval for it.

I never used Kith Construct. You are looking in the wrong section of that book, then getting all angry about it.

Which, when the other party gets angry means it's time to drop the subject, so you won't be getting more replies from me on this topic.


That's sorta my point.:smallsmile: Without the third-party stuff, you couldn't glue it together in the first place, so by virtue of it being the most crucial ingredient, it's also the most broken.

I'm not going to argue with a mod, because that's something no one can win.

However, I will point out that none of the third party is necessary for this. You can accomplish everything significant I've done here by applying the magic item stacking rules in MIC, that's just a more expensive and less fun way to go about it.

Per the Monster Manual, a golem is a magic item. Everything else can be stacked on to it, including far more than I've done here.

But it's plain that tempers are rising and no one is having fun anymore, so I see no point in pursuing it.

I had just wanted to share my amusement.

[Randomguy]

Kind of important that the entire centre piece is third party.

It's also not correct regardless. You said add the Monster of Legend template then Titanic - Monster of Legend changes type to Outsider and Titanic requires you to be Animal or Vermin. Dungeonbred also can't be applied to Outsiders. Nor can Kaiju, for that matter.

"Finally, all Kaiju are one of a kind. No two are exactly alike and each one in your campaign should be individually crafted and given a unique personality."

Meaning that, once again, they're under the purview of the DM. It's not a template that a player can just willy-nilly "apply" to a creature.

Serious question: When you're relying on multiple instances of "Your DM has to allow this or even create it themselves", dragon magazine and the centre-piece is third party...why not just homebrew it? You're already working outside the WotC rules.

The order in which the templates are applied could be rearranged.

This isn't a thought exercise; skysaber's DM actually does allow just about everything he's been pulling, and if I'm not mistaken the group also has a bunch of homebrew rules that they use, such as removing some requirements from some feats. This came up in some of the other Skysaber threads.


I hesitate to even say, but I believe that I perceive an error in your calculations. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but they can use Body Outside Body every D4+1 rounds, and I believe that your calculations above only give them each one casting.

...
That is correct.
...
Lets crunch some more numbers, shall we?
...
Your legions are infinite.

The only downside is that the copies only last 2 days each, so your clones can only go 12 days travel at most away from the one that spawned them (If a 2nd gen clone travels for 47 hours, then makes some more clones for an hour, and the clones continue travelling, since a dead caster's spells don't end). So around each original there will be a death radius of 12 days bunny travel. How fast can these things move again?

[Skysaber]

This isn't a thought exercise; skysaber's DM actually does allow just about everything he's been pulling, and if I'm not mistaken the group also has a bunch of homebrew rules that they use, such as removing some requirements from some feats. This came up in some of the other Skysaber threads.

That is correct. This is not a thought exercise. I've passed all of these figures by my DM and he approves.

The Mecha Go-Bunnies have been built.

By money obtained in-game though honest adventuring (in a D&D published game module no less), by a character who I've worked up since first level, using skills and powers he actually possesses to accomplish all I've written above.

They exist now in a campaign. Make of that what you will.

[Os1ris09]

That is correct. This is not a thought exercise. I've passed all of these figures by my DM and he approves.

The Mecha Go-Bunnies have been built.

By money obtained in-game though honest adventuring (in a D&D published game module no less), by a character who I've worked up since first level, using skills and powers he actually possesses to accomplish all I've written above.

They exist now in a campaign. Make of that what you will.

I fear for the very existence of your plane and the realm that you play your adventures in... because now everyone in the entire cosmos of your D&D realm will now hunt you down because of these abominations that you've created.

[The Glyphstone]

I never used Kith Construct. You are looking in the wrong section of that book, then getting all angry about it.

Which, when the other party gets angry means it's time to drop the subject, so you won't be getting more replies from me on this topic.



I'm not going to argue with a mod, because that's something no one can win.

However, I will point out that none of the third party is necessary for this. You can accomplish everything significant I've done here by applying the magic item stacking rules in MIC, that's just a more expensive and less fun way to go about it.

Per the Monster Manual, a golem is a magic item. Everything else can be stacked on to it, including far more than I've done here.

But it's plain that tempers are rising and no one is having fun anymore, so I see no point in pursuing it.

I had just wanted to share my amusement.

As a point of order, you're allowed to argue with me all you like as long as it's not something I (or specifically, my betentacled alter ego) posts in red text and as long as it's still obeying the rules. Mods are people too, remember.:smallbiggrin:

And still, even if the third-party is cheesy and overpowered, and whether you need it or not...you're still overrunning Hell with an army of Bunnyzillas. Isn't that worth something?

[Coidzor]

I still want either a link to a thread or an explanation of how the cost was reduced, but, yes, pretty amusing.


I fear for the very existence of your plane and the realm that you play your adventures in... because now everyone in the entire cosmos of your D&D realm will now hunt you down because of these abominations that you've created.

I'd say start with that one layer of the abyss with all of those creepy eladrin children on it or one of the ones that's embroiled in a 3 or more way war between demon lords and/or princes for a bit more confusion and miscommunication to cover for your beta-testing.

[Arcanist]

Mods are people too, remember. :smallbiggrin:

Can I argue against this? :smalltongue:

I like this... Especially the part where a Netherese is doing it all. I'd kill to see Netheril: Empire of Magic to be adjusted to include this little bit :smalltongue:

Elven High Magic be damned! Imaskan Portal Magic be damned! (and a thousand years into the future) Thayan Circle Magic be damned as well! You have just destroyed the world with sheer Netherese Archwizardry and for that you are fantastic! :smallbiggrin:

[kulosle]

Still killable, just a little harder to kill. :smallwink:
The Legion of Abyssal Death can still hunt down and kill them. :smallcool:

Can you link this? It sounds interesting.

[Sith_Happens]

That is correct. This is not a thought exercise. I've passed all of these figures by my DM and he approves.

The Mecha Go-Bunnies have been built.

By money obtained in-game though honest adventuring (in a D&D published game module no less), by a character who I've worked up since first level, using skills and powers he actually possesses to accomplish all I've written above.

They exist now in a campaign. Make of that what you will.

You remembered to give at least one of them a cockpit, right?

[The Glyphstone]

You remembered to give at least one of them a cockpit, right?

That is something the design appears to be missing - sure, they have Body Outside Body to clone themselves...but I don't see Fusion anywhere to let them become Combining Humongous Mecha-Bunnyzillas.

[Randomguy]

I still want either a link to a thread or an explanation of how the cost was reduced, but, yes, pretty amusing.


Here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273808&page=3).

And here's a quote, in a spoiler cause it's kind of long:



So, making it myself reduces costs by 50%
Golem master cohort providing assistance (heck, I'll buy an item of continuous Fusion and merge with her if I have to) reduces prices on all golems by 50% again.
Since all these are stronghold expenses, then presumably by entering into an agreement to guard an important pass or something, I can get fund matching from ground nobles via the Landlord feat, and take another 50% off.
Finally Magical Artisan plus Extraordinary Artisan is another 50% off gold.

So I end up paying 6.25% of ordinary purchase price on golems (and my DM can be happy, because he knows I am optimizing).

...

Before I start crafting, I'll have to go off and read a chapter out of the Nether Scrolls. We specifically chose an era where they were still on public display. All I have to do is show up, prove I am an arcanist, and I'm in to the auditorium where each page sits behind an as-close-to-impervious-as-makes-no-difference barrier that also serves to magnify the text for easy reading by a roomful of arcanists. The appropriate chapter gives all constructs I create maximum hit points for their hit dice, and, coincidentally, if I allocate a bit more time and read two chapters I can shave another 25% off the price of any magic items I craft, forever. So, worth doing.


Skysaber, have you ever considered writing up a campaign journal? Because that would be epic.

[Raven777]

That is something the design appears to be missing - sure, they have Body Outside Body to clone themselves...but I don't see Fusion anywhere to let them become Combining Humongous Mecha-Bunnyzillas.

Yeah. That's quite an oversight.

[Shining Wrath]

They don't have to. Each BOB clone has 1/4 the HP of the prior clone. They very quickly no longer have the HP to take even a single hit, and eventually no longer have even a single HP. There is a strict limit on how many of these beasties that can be running around self-cloned at a time (and I'm don't have enough detail on the beasties to do the math right now). When you're tossing a finite number of critters into planes that are defined as infinite to start an all-out war, well, you're going to lose your investment.

But you'll put a dent. Let's just hope they don't copy the method and return the favor, eh?

288 HD ==> 1296 HP (assuming 8 sided HD).
Progression is 1296, 324, 81, 20, 5, 1.

If they can be generated at a rate of one per minute and last for 48 hours or 2880 minutes, you've got a vast horde of beasties spreading out from a center point. They may die with a single hit but they'll do enormous damage first.

If the spawn first travel for one day outward before beginning their own spawning, you have a central point with 2880 radii, and at the end of each radii are 1440 radii pointing outward, and so on for 5 generations.

Even Hell is going to be impressed.

Oh, and I nominate this entire idea for the "Wait, wait, that didn't work right" thread.

[Randomguy]

288 HD ==> 1296 HP (assuming 8 sided HD).
Progression is 1296, 324, 81, 20, 5, 1.

If they can be generated at a rate of one per minute and last for 48 hours or 2880 minutes, you've got a vast horde of beasties spreading out from a center point. They may die with a single hit but they'll do enormous damage first.

If the spawn first travel for one day outward before beginning their own spawning, you have a central point with 2880 radii, and at the end of each radii are 1440 radii pointing outward, and so on for 5 generations.

Even Hell is going to be impressed.

Oh, and I nominate this entire idea for the "Wait, wait, that didn't work right" thread.

Actually the originals have 10,096 hp each. This was calculated/explained earlier in the thread.

[Jack_Simth]

288 HD ==> 1296 HP (assuming 8 sided HD).
Progression is 1296, 324, 81, 20, 5, 1.

Prime HP is noted as 10,096 earlier.
2nd gen is thus 2,524 hp each
3rd gen is thus 631 hp each
4th gen is thus 157 hp each
5th gen is thus 39 hp each
6th gen is thus 9 hp each
7th gen is thus 2 hp each
8th gen doesn't exist (0 hp each, on a construct; they're destroyed as soon as they're made... which also kills the master, and the master's master, if it's tried, thanks to how BOB interacts with clone death).



Even Hell is going to be impressed.
Eh... they'll live.

Assuming an ideal distribution, then the maximum number of them at any one time is about P*B^6 (where B is the expected number of clones produced in the duration).

At once every 1d4+1 rounds (average: 3.5), in a 48-hour period, the prime is expected to cast BOB 822 times. At caster level 288, that's 57 clones/casting, for 46,854 clones as our value of B.

Resulting in approximately 1.06x10²⁸ of these per Prime in an ideal situation.

However: That makes some assumptions. You see, while the antimagic field of a colossus doesn't interfere with it's own supernatural abilities... nothing inherently stops it from interfering with the supernatural abilities of other colossii. So Prime uses BOB. It is now surrounded by 57 clones (which don't fit in the range of BOB... ignoring that and proceeding...) each of which produces an antimagic field. All but one of the clones are immediately suppressed by the antimagic field from their brethren. And the one survivor can't use it's own BOB until after it's original is out of range... and nor can the original use BOB again until after the same limit.

The math to do this would get really, really complex, but your primary limit on numbers are going to be the area in which you have to spread the beasties, and how fast you can do this. 12 days travel from the prime in all directions gets pounded with a rather lot of bunnies, provided all bunnies are at least 100 feet from another bunny (giant equilateral triangle grid fits the most in, I think, but we'll use squares here for convenience on calculations). Given that each bunny has a pretty hefty size footprint when 'active' (30 foot space), you're looking at 130 foot centers. At a move of 40, with "can't run" on there, a double-move every round puts them in a radius of 1,382,400 feet from the prime (a 261 mile radius, 522 mile diameter, swath of destruction, other than the little issue that these beasties have to stop to hurt things).

Let's assume the Prime is traveling East at a Hustle. With 130 feet between grid points, that 1,382,400 radius from the prime (2,764,800 feet across). over the course of 12 days (the limit) is also 1,382,400 feet long. Using a square pattern, that's approximately 226,157,368 bunnies at a time that'll fit the maximum area (beyond that, the durations are running out).

Now: How does Hell fight back? Rocks Fall, everyone dies!

No, seriously. As currently listed, these things can't fly. This is a serious threat, attacking an infinite plane, and Hell has a nonzero population density of flying, teleporting beasties that can carry 50 pound rocks (Just Core: Bone Devils, Erinyes, Horned Devils, Ice Devils, Pit Fiends). Every devil that can both fly and teleport (there's infinity of them...) grabs a 31-50 pound chunk of rock, teleports 1,000 feet above the invaders' heads, and drops them. Each 40 foot increment of falling distance means the rocks deal 1d6 damage (max 20d6, I think...) so each rock deals max damage. Oddly, falling rocks aren't attacks, so they ignore DR. Each colossus takes an arbitrarily large amount of damage all at once.

[The Glyphstone]

How are you packing infinity devils into a 30ft square area for this? You might have unlimited rocks to drop, but unless the devils are prepared to kill an infinite number of their fellows to knock them out of the way of the bombardment, you can only actually get 36 rocks-on-target per turn via dropping them, and the Bunnies would receive Reflex saves, further reducing the damage - if the Bunnies only fail on a 1, that's 1.8 hits/turn. At average 70 damage per hit...this will eventually kill the Bunnies, unless they can Fast Heal/Regenerate 126 HP/round.

[rweird]

How are you packing infinity devils into a 30ft square area for this? You might have unlimited rocks to drop, but unless the devils are prepared to kill an infinite number of their fellows to knock them out of the way of the bombardment, you can only actually get 36 rocks-on-target per turn via dropping them, and the Bunnies would receive Reflex saves, further reducing the damage - if the Bunnies only fail on a 1, that's 1.8 hits/turn. At average 70 damage per hit...this will eventually kill the Bunnies, unless they can Fast Heal/Regenerate 126 HP/round.

Over 36, once they appear, they could move out of the way for others/teleport away/a new wave teleports lower down, etc. I think that at least 108 rocks is realistic, meaning at least ~350 damage/round, Fast healing would mean that they'd lose 224 HP/round, 1 minute would deal 2240 damage, so about 5 minutes to kill one of the primary, for a secondary, it'd be 1/4th that time, 1/16 for a 3rd clone generation, and 1 round for anything of a lower generation, though I personally thing that they probably could drop at least twice that many rocks, though it might be more optimal to drop 2 25 lb rocks/devil instead, not sure.

I don't feel like doing math for this right now.

[The Glyphstone]

True, they do still have a move action. Okay, so it's at least theoretically feasible to get infinite rocks-on-target, though you're complicated by the fact that you only have a certain range of space to move into without ending up in the bombardment pattern of a different mechabunny.

[Randomguy]

No, seriously. As currently listed, these things can't fly. This is a serious threat, attacking an infinite plane, and Hell has a nonzero population density of flying, teleporting beasties that can carry 50 pound rocks (Just Core: Bone Devils, Erinyes, Horned Devils, Ice Devils, Pit Fiends). Every devil that can both fly and teleport (there's infinity of them...) grabs a 31-50 pound chunk of rock, teleports 1,000 feet above the invaders' heads, and drops them. Each 40 foot increment of falling distance means the rocks deal 1d6 damage (max 20d6, I think...) so each rock deals max damage. Oddly, falling rocks aren't attacks, so they ignore DR. Each colossus takes an arbitrarily large amount of damage all at once.

They've got like over + 290 to hide and move silently. You aren't going to spot these things from 1000 feat up, or at all. Even mindsight wouldn't work, since the AMF suppresses telepathy, since telepathy is a supernatural ability.


Also, another plus of this is that "Unleash the Bunnies!" becomes a very dreaded phrase.

[Jack_Simth]

True, they do still have a move action. Okay, so it's at least theoretically feasible to get infinite rocks-on-target, though you're complicated by the fact that you only have a certain range of space to move into without ending up in the bombardment pattern of a different mechabunny.
Ah, but remember: The bunnies can't be within 100 feet of each other (if they are, their bretherin's AMF suppresses them), and the demons can travel in three dimensions out of bunny reach.

At 20d6 per hit (average 70), and 10,096 for bunny prime, we need an average of 144.23 hits to kill prime; 36.06 to kill a 2nd gen; 9.01 hits to kill a 3rd gen; 2.25 hits to kill a 4th gen; 1 hit to kill anything further.

Wave A appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny#1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 60 feet North. 1.8 hits, running total: 1.8 hits - 5th or later gen is dead.

Wave B appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 30 feet North. 1.8 hits. Running total: 3.6 hits. - 4th gen is dead.

Wave C appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 60 feet South. 1.8 hits. Running total: 5.4 hits.

Wave D appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 30 feet South. 1.8 hits. Running total: 7.2 hits.

Wave E appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 60 feet West. 1.8 hits. Running total: 9.0 hits.

Wave F appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 30 feet West. 1.8 hits. Running total: 10.8 hits. - 3rd gen is dead.

Wave G appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 60 feet East. 1.8 hits. Running total: 12.6 hits.

Wave H appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 30 feet East. 1.8 hits. Running total: 14.4 hits.

Wave I appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 60 feet North-East. 1.8 hits. Running Total: 16.2 hits.

Wave J appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 60 feet North-West. 1.8 hits. Running total: 18.0 hits.

Wave K appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny #1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 60 feet South-West. 1.8 hits. Running total: 19.8 hits.

Wave L appears 1,000 feet directly above Bunny#1, and drops the 36 rocks to fit the bunny square. They then fly 60 feet South-east. 1.8 hits. Running total: 21.6 hits for a layer

Oh yes, and this assumes that we can't have devils squeeze into the same squares when flying, and everyone stays on the same level they arrive in. If we're using, say, arbitrarily large number of Erinyes to do this (fly speed 50 feet) then the first wave escaping the death zone in any particular direction needs to drop five or ten feet while flying to avoid having the next wave run into them.

That's layer 1. We repeat this at 1,100 feet for layer 2. That grants an expected 43.2 hits, enough to kill a 2nd gen.

To kill prime, we need 7 layers. 36 Erinyes per wave, 12 waves per layer, 7 layers = 3,024 CR 8 critters, acting in an organized manner, to defeat a bunny prime in basically one round (granted, you'll need a *very* large number of them to get ALL the bunnies, but eh, the hells are infinite). The spacing between layers means that they can shuffle layers up ten feet to deal with the retreat area overlap between multiple bunnies.

They don't need to know which bunny is bunny prime. They just drop rocks until all bunnies are dead.

This sort of tactic is only pulled out for overpowering threats, of course, which this pretty much is.

There will be a dent in the D&D hells if you do this. But the D&D hells will survive it... and probably learn from you. Then use your own tactics against you later. After all, they most assuredly have a few lawful-evil netherese artificers amongst their ranks....

[Arbitrarious]

So, how much would it be to add time stop and teleport to these adorable little abominations? Hyper Dimensional Go-Bunnies are a Go! A little metamagic on the time stop to make sure the prime bunny stays in time stop all the time and you would have infinite 2nd gen bunnies across the entire plane instantly. The only thing that could save the abyss would be something capable of taking a prime bunny being within range of the feat spell stowaway when the first bunny goes active. That is, if that feat even works once it's converted to a supernatural ability. Otherwise it's all over as the abyss fills with Go-Bunnies.

Also, why do these have no breath weapons/laser cannons? Though between timestop and teleport it isn't needed because Go-Bunnies fall, you all die.

[Jack_Simth]

So, how much would it be to add time stop and teleport to these adorable little abominations? Hyper Dimensional Go-Bunnies are a Go! A little metamagic on the time stop to make sure the prime bunny stays in time stop all the time and you would have infinite 2nd gen bunnies across the entire plane instantly.Actually, that's irrelevant. The duration on your abilities continues to count down while you're in a Time Stop. So while that could get you to the maximum number of 2nd gen bunnies in a round... it doesn't actually help. The durations run out before they can act because the Prime took a ton of time in Time Stop.

[Arbitrarious]

Hmm... true. It seems a little counter intuitive for spells that produce creatures, but it is technically a self buff. There needs to be a way that can work in our favor.

[rweird]

For hiding, the bunnies have to not be observed, I doubt the arrival of 200 bunny-robots all hundreds of feet tall would do that, and the AMFs would be noted, and would find the highest point to be the origin.

Another thing Hell could try, permanently shrunk rocks, that way everyone could carry more rocks, that grow as they reach the AMF, this would allow them, this shrinks it to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass, assuming 31 lb. rocks a devil could carry 6451 of those, even with 1/20 hitting, they average 22578.5 damage.

Now for the question, why the hell would Hell have thousands, if not millions of permanently reduced 31 pound rocks, the answer, I don't know, though it is an effective tactic, so perhaps someone tried to utilize it somewhere else in Hell's infinite space.

[Golden Ladybug]

Point of Order for the Rocks Fall strategy.

If the Bunnies, by either being really sneaky or just more durable than Hell is prepared for, survive the first salvo (or if they're prepared for a salvo of permanently shrunk rocks falling on them by way of teleporting Baatezu), they can start throwing Planar Turnings.

Now they have a non-infinite but incredibly large number of Erinyes who are commanded to fly above the Bunnies in a dense enough pattern to block any further falling rocks :smallamused:

[Jack_Simth]

Point of Order for the Rocks Fall strategy.

If the Bunnies, by either being really sneaky or just more durable than Hell is prepared for, survive the first salvo (or if they're prepared for a salvo of permanently shrunk rocks falling on them by way of teleporting Baatezu), they can start throwing Planar Turnings.

Now they have a non-infinite but incredibly large number of Erinyes who are commanded to fly above the Bunnies in a dense enough pattern to block any further falling rocks :smallamused:
They're a thousand feet up. Bunnies as currently statted can't fly. Turning has a range of 60 feet.

[The Glyphstone]

And they can't even stack on each other's heads, because then the AMFs would overlap.

[angry_bear]

For hiding, the bunnies have to not be observed, I doubt the arrival of 200 bunny-robots all hundreds of feet tall would do that, and the AMFs would be noted, and would find the highest point to be the origin.

Another thing Hell could try, permanently shrunk rocks, that way everyone could carry more rocks, that grow as they reach the AMF, this would allow them, this shrinks it to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass, assuming 31 lb. rocks a devil could carry 6451 of those, even with 1/20 hitting, they average 22578.5 damage.

Now for the question, why the hell would Hell have thousands, if not millions of permanently reduced 31 pound rocks, the answer, I don't know, though it is an effective tactic, so perhaps someone tried to utilize it somewhere else in Hell's infinite space.

How many shrunken rocks are needed to fill a bag of holding for each fiend?

Also isn't it pointless to target out the newer generations since they'll respawn before the fiends can target the older generations? Math isn't my forte though, so I could be completely wrong about that....

[Shining Wrath]

Actually the originals have 10,096 hp each. This was calculated/explained earlier in the thread.

Missed that, sorry.


How are you packing infinity devils into a 30ft square area for this? You might have unlimited rocks to drop, but unless the devils are prepared to kill an infinite number of their fellows to knock them out of the way of the bombardment, you can only actually get 36 rocks-on-target per turn via dropping them, and the Bunnies would receive Reflex saves, further reducing the damage - if the Bunnies only fail on a 1, that's 1.8 hits/turn. At average 70 damage per hit...this will eventually kill the Bunnies, unless they can Fast Heal/Regenerate 126 HP/round.

Further, the non-flying Bunnies can throw rocks, creating a massive reverse flux of stones flying upwards, possibly creating an impenetrable dome of stone as all the rocks collide (given infinite rocks falling and nearly infinite rocks going upwards, the odds of them fitting together approach certainty).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Wait, don't overlapping AMFs cancel each other? Like, if theres a 5 ft overlap between 2 AMFs, wouldn't it just cancel out there, one AMF canceling the other? So the bunny clones AMFs never reach each other, since its stopped by the individual's AMF. Or am I misremembering something?

[Talya]

"Oh, it's just a harmless little bunny."


I've got a theory
It could be bunnies...

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses
And what's with all the carrots
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
Bunnies!
Bunnies!
It must be bunnies!

[rweird]

How many shrunken rocks are needed to fill a bag of holding for each fiend?

Also isn't it pointless to target out the newer generations since they'll respawn before the fiends can target the older generations? Math isn't my forte though, so I could be completely wrong about that....

I forgot to include they had bags of holding, a type 3 could hold 1000 lbs, or 150 cubic feet, that is certainly at least the ~6500 I mentioned, they probably could hold at least 10 times that, more than enough to overkill one (the problem is picking them back up).

While targeting the second or 3rd generation isn't a waste, killing the ones that make the most powerful duplicates first would be best, because then they slowly would die out on there own (each expires after 48 hours, so the second generation only could create 3rd generation, though 48 hours later, 3rd would be at the top, etc, until eventually the duplicates would be made a 0 HP, and thus render the bunnies extinct).

Shining Wrath: Well, by D&D rules, I don't think that is included, though they have a lot fewer attacks, it'd be only ~4 rocks/round, as oppose to the thousands dropped on them.

Golden Ladybug: I don't see how they'd be able to survive save blocking LoE. I suppose one might survive by not rolling 145 1s, or damage is under average, out of some 6500 rolls you need to make (though if it is 36 of them, then 234000 saves, you have to not roll 145 1s, good luck with that, I'm pretty sure the odds are lower than being hit by a tornado, meteor, and a bale of cocaine within a few minutes (http://what-if.xkcd.com/19/)).

[Jack_Simth]

Wait, don't overlapping AMFs cancel each other? Like, if theres a 5 ft overlap between 2 AMFs, wouldn't it just cancel out there, one AMF canceling the other? So the bunny clones AMFs never reach each other, since its stopped by the individual's AMF. Or am I misremembering something?
You're misremembering; from The Spell In Question (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)
Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other.
Further, the non-flying Bunnies can throw rocks, creating a massive reverse flux of stones flying upwards, possibly creating an impenetrable dome of stone as all the rocks collide (given infinite rocks falling and nearly infinite rocks going upwards, the odds of them fitting together approach certainty).
There's a sharp limit to the bunny density that prevents this defence - that of the bunnies' own antimagic fields. Clones must keep 100 feet of separation, or one of the clones gets suppressed by another's AMF. As the bunnies take a 30 foot space, this means your bunny arrangement has 130 foot separation from the centers of the bunnies. Any that get closer get suppressed. Meanwhile, the flying & teleporting devils (demons, too, but they're less likely to have the organization to pull this sort of thing off) have five to ten foot squares, and three dimensions to move in. As a result, the devils can drop rocks in much, much bigger quantities than the bunnies can throw them.

[Callin]

No "Night of the Lepus" jokes yet?? I am sad. :smallbiggrin:


Wonderful idea btw.

[Randomguy]

For hiding, the bunnies have to not be observed, I doubt the arrival of 200 bunny-robots all hundreds of feet tall would do that, and the AMFs would be noted, and would find the highest point to be the origin.


From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm):

Antimagic Field (Ex)

A colossus constantly generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the colossus’s own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster.


Emphasis mine.

The range of True Seeing and Arcane Sight is only 120 feet. You wouldn't be able to detect an AMF from there.

[Jack_Simth]

From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm):


Emphasis mine.

The range of True Seeing and Arcane Sight is only 120 feet. You wouldn't be able to detect an AMF from there.

They don't have to observe it directly. Remember how I keep saying there's going to be a dent in Hell? When the devils that fly by spell suddenly fall, you know there's an AMF about. With the range on this AMF, a distant observer can fairly readily figure out where the centre is.

[georgie_leech]

They don't have to observe it directly. Remember how I keep saying there's going to be a dent in Hell? When the devils that fly by spell suddenly fall, you know there's an AMF about. With the range on this AMF, a distant observer can fairly readily figure out where the centre is.

At the cost of multiple dead devils. Last I checked, devils weren't big on sacrificing themselves for fleeting tactical advantages :smalltongue:

[Deepbluediver]

No, seriously. As currently listed, these things can't fly. This is a serious threat...

Before we copy the death-bunny design into the golem, can we squeeze a werebat template on there? Isn't that how the trolls did it?

If you don't want to copy, what other sorts of things grant racial flying?

[angry_bear]

They don't have to observe it directly. Remember how I keep saying there's going to be a dent in Hell? When the devils that fly by spell suddenly fall, you know there's an AMF about. With the range on this AMF, a distant observer can fairly readily figure out where the centre is.

They won't fall though since they have natural flying. The majority of devils have wings, and granted; I question how something built like a Pit Fiend can fly on it's own, but it's not a magical ability for them.

The bunnies would be difficult to detect magically, although I think the Lords of Hell (Beelzebub and the others) ignore AMF's don't they?

How does travelling to each realm of hell work again? Can you actually walk to each, or is magic required? It's possible that the bunnies just wind up stuck on layer #1 for eternity... Or you anger the deities who have summer homes in hell and they get directly involved...

The base idea for this is really cool, I have to admit. But, if the infinite falling rocks don't work, then there are a lot of other ways that things can go wrong with it.

[Coidzor]

How does travelling to each realm of hell work again? Can you actually walk to each, or is magic required? It's possible that the bunnies just wind up stuck on layer #1 for eternity... Or you anger the deities who have summer homes in hell and they get directly involved...

I believe if Sigil is in play there are portals there that link to anywhere, including multiple layers of both Hell and the Abyss.

Plane shifting just gets to the first layer of Hell which sees occasional demonic incursions, IIRC, and is basically fortified with many, many fortresses. From there one can take portals to lower layers. I can't recall if there is a "physical" passageway between layers like sometimes occurs on other multi-layered planes.


Before we copy the death-bunny design into the golem, can we squeeze a werebat template on there? Isn't that how the trolls did it?

If you don't want to copy, what other sorts of things grant racial flying?

There's a winged template, IIRC.

[Jack_Simth]

They won't fall though since they have natural flying. The majority of devils have wings, and granted; I question how something built like a Pit Fiend can fly on it's own, but it's not a magical ability for them.
*Most* devils fly naturally, this is true. Not all of them, however. Just Core, however, both the Bone Devil and the Ice Devil have no natural fly speed, but have Fly as an at-will spell-like ability. When those start falling out of the air, you know there's a very big AMF about (or someone's spamming dispels willy-nilly, but still something that specifically needs investigation).



At the cost of multiple dead devils. Last I checked, devils weren't big on sacrificing themselves for fleeting tactical advantages :smalltongue:
You misunderstand. It's not a deliberate detection method. It's just pointing out that most devils have at-will or constant spell-like or supernatural abilities, many of them have various obvious effects. A Barbed Devil loses Barbed Defense, and their barbs retract. A Bone Devil suddenly becomes visible and/or falls out of the sky. A chained devil's face stops shifting and all the chains around him go silent. An Erinyes loses her bevy of charmed minions. A Horned Devil's Magic Circle fades. An Ice Devil's Unholy Aura fades. An Imp can suddenly be seen, and changes from a rat (or whatever) back to an Imp. A Pit Fiend loses its Magic Circle and its Unholy Aura. Almost all devils lose their supernatural ability to "see perfectly in darkness of any kind" (yes, that's as much description as we have for the ability - apparently, everything's as bright as day for a devil, at any range).

The falling out of the sky bit? That's mentioned mostly for the amusement value. But as magical as Devils are (demons, too), a large circle of antimagic is rather blatantly obvious as soon as the bunnies go anywhere near a populated area. Is it a deliberate tactic for locating them? No. But someone observing the carnage can get a pretty good idea of where the AMF is coming from fairly readily just by observing from afar who loses out when.

Yes, a lot of devils will die. The survivors will only care if it means the dead ones won't pay back a debt. The Hells are infinite in size. There are more devils where those came from. You'll leave a dent, maybe make some history books, get to watch a lot of carnage (although you'll pretty much have to be there to do that; the AMF kills scrying sensors). But the Hells will survive the assault, and maybe learn how to do it themselves in the process.

[Deepbluediver]

There's a winged template, IIRC.

That seems...disappointingly easy.

Don't you have anything a little more...munchkin-y?

[MesiDoomstalker]

That seems...disappointingly easy.

Don't you have anything a little more...munchkin-y?

Multi-headed, feral, dark, mineral warrior, half [All] dragon? From my understanding the LA of the base creature doesn't affect the Go-Bunnies, so why not throw all of those on as well. You'd have so many flavors of Breath Weapons and multiple uses too!

[Story]

Golden Ladybug: I don't see how they'd be able to survive save blocking LoE. I suppose one might survive by not rolling 145 1s, or damage is under average, out of some 6500 rolls you need to make (though if it is 36 of them, then 234000 saves, you have to not roll 145 1s, good luck with that, I'm pretty sure the odds are lower than being hit by a tornado, meteor, and a bale of cocaine within a few minutes (http://what-if.xkcd.com/19/)).

You could stick Planar Touchstone (CoE - Pride Domain) on them so that they only fail 1/400 of the time instead of 1/20th. But that just increases the number of devils.

Buffing their DR to the point where they can shrug off the rocks seems like a better approach.

[nobodez]

You could stick Planar Touchstone (CoE - Pride Domain) on them so that they only fail 1/400 of the time instead of 1/20th. But that just increases the number of devils.

Buffing their DR to the point where they can shrug off the rocks seems like a better approach.

IIRC they're using an interpretation of DR that says that falling rocks ignore DR.

[Shining Wrath]

While we're at it, can we give the Bunnies character levels? I think a Bunny that can also cast Time Stop and Levitate might have fun with the falling rocks attack.

OTOH, a Bunny with Barbarian Rage ability (Whirling Frenzy) and Pounce would add great fun.

[The Glyphstone]

It's a pity the Rock Catching ability of Giants is limited to 1/round.

[Komatik]

I'm disappointed these are bunny golems, not actual bunnies-turned-hellhound type things. : /

[Deepbluediver]

Multi-headed, feral, dark, mineral warrior, half [All] dragon? From my understanding the LA of the base creature doesn't affect the Go-Bunnies, so why not throw all of those on as well. You'd have so many flavors of Breath Weapons and multiple uses too!

Yeah, that's much better, thank you.


I'm disappointed these are bunny golems, not actual bunnies-turned-hellhound type things. : /

Start with the first part of the OP, add the above, and just keep slapping on templates. You'll get there eventually.

[Socratov]

oh, wow, just, wow. I think we'll need to get the speaking gun for this one...

*calls John Taylor*

Hello? John Taylor?...yeah, I need your help, or rather, I need the Speaking Gun to off some unkillable bunnies...
...yes, bunnies...
.........No, they are not nice...
..uhuh...uhuh...Oh...So, there is no Speaking Gun?...So, how about a different solution?...So...Can you find me the Detective Inspectre?...uhuh...thanks for your time...
*hangs up phone*
Ok, we're screwed... Royally I might add...

I heartily applaud your efforts at creating something so destructive and unkillable, yet so cute and fluffy. For the rest I hope nobody atually will do this since it will most certainly mean the end of existence.

Edit:

BTW, this made me think of this:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=74274&type=card

[Phelix-Mu]

If the devils are going to use rocks, and since "rocks fall" is a classic bad end for TO and borderline TO stuff, I'd advise incorporating the druid spell earthen grace into the design of the golems. You might need to make it first part of the bunny creature, to avoid the "living creature" clause, or perhaps the golems count as living creatures at this point? An energy transformation field could be used to repower the spell, as it discharges after blocking the full hp value of the critter worth of damage.

Alternatively, would earthglide allow you to just "glide" through the falling rocks (assuming you were aware of them...hard to not be aware of infinite falling rocks)? It might be easier to acquire a source of earthglide.

You'd probably have to come up with some work-around to their anti-magic field first. I'm wondering if a properly constructed item of invoke magic inside the colossi might work. Also, I'm told that line of effect blockers block AMF, so a hollow could be created inside the construct that is then occupied by anti-magic bypassing stuff. This brings up the source of the AMF effect, which seems to be the whole construct. Hmmm.

Hard to improve on perfection. The truth is that there are few ways to take on infinitely large planes of existence, even with arbitrarily high resources. I've been looking at the TO of Epic Spellcasting, and even that level of broke would still have to be pretty sophisticated before you march into Hell with it and order Asmodeus to lick your boots clean. (Especially if, as I would, your DM refuses to stat Asmodeus as per the official stuff, which is pathetically underpowered. I'm not saying I would go all the way to dicefreaks' level, but probably close.:smallwink:.)

[JusticeZero]

It might be possible to somehow hijack the infinity via mucking with whatever is seeding it, I suppose. Infinity means that it's pointless for the residents to do anything too. The next question might be "What would a campaign world where the prime material plane types managed to level a couple of planes that were being pesky look like?" Seriously a problem that should be looked at as soon as epic characters start even contemplating using the Deities and Demigods book as a big game hunting list.
"We are the all-powerful creators of all and.. and.. uhm.. who let them in here..? ..uh... ohcrap that's a really sharp sword, where are you going with that ohdearusinhere who's idea was it to make these guys able to do that that's just broken and wrong.."

[Coidzor]

Wasn't there a series of fantasy novels that involved something like plane/dimension hopping and the primary villain had a crippling fear of/weakness to fluffy bunnies?

[Razanir]

While we're at it, can we give the Bunnies character levels? I think a Bunny that can also cast Time Stop and Levitate might have fun with the falling rocks attack.

OTOH, a Bunny with Barbarian Rage ability (Whirling Frenzy) and Pounce would add great fun.

Not thinking hard enough. Commoner + Chicken Infested. That was seriously the first thing I noticed was missing. Not only do they have an army of infinitely spawning bunny golems to deal with, but now they have infinitely many chickens to deal with as well. Bonus points if there's any way to buff those chickens

[Artillery]

Not thinking hard enough. Commoner + Chicken Infested. That was seriously the first thing I noticed was missing. Not only do they have an army of infinitely spawning bunny golems to deal with, but now they have infinitely many chickens to deal with as well. Bonus points if there's any way to buff those chickens

You mean like making the chickens explode in blasts of negative energy?

[Razanir]

You mean like making the chickens explode in blasts of negative energy?

We can make them do that?!

[MesiDoomstalker]

We can make them do that?!

Its a feat in Libris Mortis. I forget what its called, but it cause undead creatures you raise deal HDd6 damage upon being destroyed. You'd have to give them a way to Animate a mass amount of Chickens first though.

[Coidzor]

Its a feat in Libris Mortis. I forget what its called, but it cause undead creatures you raise deal HDd6 damage upon being destroyed. You'd have to give them a way to Animate a mass amount of Chickens first though.

Destruction Retribution, part of the Corpsecrafter line. Page 26, IIRC. 1d6, and then more as it increases with HD, but, is chickens, so....1d6. Reflex save for half damage though.

[herculesftw]

how did you get the constructs to cost so little?

[Story]

The prices reductions have already been posted.

[Deepbluediver]

So, for anyone who's good at crunching numbers, how does the Iron-Golem Bunny Brigade (IG-Bb, pronounced "ig-bee" for short :smallbiggrin:) stack up against the Ultimate Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280524)?

[nedz]

A couple of points


This is a cute trick BTW
I thought that the bunnies were invading the Abyss not Dante's circus ?


Ed: having just re-read the thread title my second point may be incorrect, but I'm sure the OP started out with the other place.

[Jack_Simth]

A couple of points


This is a cute trick BTW
I thought that the bunnies were invading the Abyss not Dante's circus ?


Ed: having just re-read the thread title my second point may be incorrect, but I'm sure the OP started out with the other place.
The Abyss can do all the same stuff, it's just harder for them to get organized.

[Skysaber]

You have just destroyed the world with sheer Netherese Archwizardry and for that you are fantastic! :smallbiggrin:

Do you mind if I sig this?


You remembered to give at least one of them a cockpit, right?

Could do that easily enough via a dip into a Dragonmech book or two.


That is something the design appears to be missing - sure, they have Body Outside Body to clone themselves...but I don't see Fusion anywhere to let them become Combining Humongous Mecha-Bunnyzillas.

And that's easily done too. Just adapt the Puzzle Golem out of Dragon Magazine #302, which seems purpose-build for exactly this sort of effect.

Black Bunny: "And I'll form the head!"

Anyway, since I've started seeing links to this thread in response to people asking about constructs and epic threats it inclined me to cough up some more stats so they'd be more usable as adversaries and such.

Point of order: I use third party because my group and I use third party. If that offends you, go elsewhere, because I am through apologizing about it. That said, WOTC has plenty of abuses and nothing prevents you from approximating this using their rules. As a player, I have to be careful and precise to adhere to the rules as my group uses them. As a DM villain, do whatever suits you. Their creation specifics are unimportant as a 'villain of the week'.

Ok, to start this whole mess off, we *could* take a plain vanilla white bunny rabbit into our lab, but I've been unable to find stats on those, so we'll use an Al-Mi'raj instead. Comparing their conversion stats out of the Tome of Horrors and the Creature Catalog finds them virtually identical, so I'll go with the Creature Catalog version just because it has one step higher damage die on its horn. We'll also take a member of the psionic version.

We now skip into our delightful little crossbreeding laboratory where our razor boar in a steel cage awaits us, our Al-Mi'raj on a pink ribbon leash hopping along behind. But before we close our doors, charge up the lightning poles, and begin to cackle madly, we pause to consider. "You know," we tell ourselves, because speaking to oneself is the only way to converse with an equal anymore. "This bunny has something very much like a unicorn horn on it, and that's just too ripe a theme for exploitation." So, with a hop, a skip, and a jump we return with a unicorn on another leash. Only this time we'll use a blue ribbon.

Now we COULD just dissolve all three into protoplasmic ooze, mix them all together in a bucket, and pour out a new species, to brutally summarize one of the popular methods explained in Encyclopedia Arcane: Crossbreeding, but that seems awfully rude to our pretty little bunny and this delightful unicorn. So we'll use clones instead. All this process is concerned about is a warm body with the right genetics, souls are completely optional.

So we give our bunny and unicorn a complete makeover, wash and trim, and a medical checkup with bloody knives that they'll never remember because we had them under Anesthesia and Regeneration at the time, and release them with beautifully coiferred manes, ribbons in their tails and a lolipop each for all of their hard work. They are free to go.

Our razor boar snorts in his pen because he's just smart enough to know that whatever is going on, he won't like it. We grin and cackle madly as the doors close slowly on our laboratory and the lightning generators spin up behind us.

One very confusing process with lots of eldritch laughter follows, and we spit out of our labs a new creation, with all of the strong points of each of its parent species - just because normally random aspects of the process can be controlled at higher DCs, and we're that good.

Appearance and size are identical to an ordinary rabbit, with only small spiral horn to betray it, because we are insane and it amuses us to make a powerhouse that most people would mistake for breakfast. Oddly enough, I am in the Forgotten Realms, so if I collect my initial rabbit from the Taer region he qualifies for the Battle Jump feat.

Cue lots of diabolical snickering.

So a standard Razor Bunny's stats are as follows:
Tiny Magical Beast
45D10 Hit Dice, average 517HP
Speed: 60ft (70ft when psionically focused)
AC: 39, derived from +2 size, +7 Dex, +20 natural armor
To-Hit: +60 (BAB 45 + 13 str + 2 size)
Attacks: horn for D8 + str, two paws for D4 + str, bite for D8 + str, or trample for 2D6 + str & 1/2. The horn is a +3 magic weapon, and is vorpal.
Saves: Fort 30, Ref 31, Will 21
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 24, Con 22, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 24
Special Qualities: DR 20/+3, SR 21, Fast Healing 10, Darkvision 60ft, Low-Light Vision, Scent, Wild Empathy, Easy Maintenance, Magic Circle Against Evil, Immunity to Disease, Poison, Charm & Compulsion.
Spell-Like Abilities: Detect Evil at will as free action, 3/day Cure Light Wounds, 1/day Cure Moderate Wounds, 1/day Neutralize Poison, 1/day Greater Teleport (within its home forest only). Blink at will and can start or end the effect as a free action, Dimension Door once per round as a free action (the ability only affects the razor bunny, which never appears inside of a solid object and can act immediately after teleporting), Control Winds at will, Deeper Darkness at will, Telekinesis at will, and Levitate at will.
Skills: +31 Hide, +39 Jump, +22 Listen, +27 Move Silently, +22 Spot, +22 Survival. 16 ranks of each, plus ability mods, +8 size bonus on Hide, +4 racial bonus on Move Silently & +10 competence bonus to Jump.
Feats: Battle Jump, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Lunging Strike, Mighty Leaping, Dire Charge, Deflect Arrows, Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, Reflect Arrows, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Strong Secondary, Up the Walls, Speed of Thought, Improved Critical (Horn)
Alignment: Always Chaotic Good
CR: 18

So there you go. Any ranged attacks, including spells, our adorable little puffball can deflect and return to sender. It can pounce and power attack for enough damage to keep things interesting, and it looks cute while doing it.

We specifically retained a normal rabbit's diet and reproductive rate, but gave it the attitude and personality of a unicorn (along with it's mental stats) - but unlike a unicorn, it's tough enough to actually do something about those beliefs. Still, it's perfectly peaceful and inoffensive, unless of course someone happens to be evil or threatening to destroy it or its forest, in which case it bites their heads off. Or gores them off, if you want to be particular about it.

I figure I'll whip up a couple of dozen pairs, then engage in a breeding program. Around the time I have a few hundred thousand, I can present a few as gifts to the various elf kings/queens. And in doing so I foresee that not a lot of elvan kingdoms are going to fall to the usual threats anymore, as in a few years our razor bunnies will outnumber the orcs/goblins/kobolds/etc.

Actually, come to think of it, being evil is going to be very unpopular in our version of the Realms, as it's unhealthy. You never know when someone might lose their head over it. So I guess our plane will ascend, as it's going to find itself lacking any substantial evil component, and therefore is liable to take its place among the chaotic good planes.

And I'm ok with that.

Switch out their Deeper Darkness at will (which never made any sense) for a continual Avoid Planar Effects spell and not only does hell now have cause to quake within their boots about the territory they stand to lose but we've saved a full spell level worth of continual/at will abilities, which according to the equations for those means we can also drop the near-useless Greater Teleport 1/day, and between the spell credits saved up between them upgrade their Blink at will to Greater Blink at will. And at the same time while we're in there fiddling under the hood we may as well trade out Control Winds for Dispel Evil, also at will. Same levels, so it's an even switch. The same for when we trade out their 1/day Neutralize Poison for 1/day Delay Death.

So now they are just we want them: mild and inoffensive, peaceful little herbivores that couldn't hurt a soul - unless it was evil. And when they start to overrun the place we can export them via Gate by the billions.

This was Stage One, the Razor Bunny. Next comes Stage Two, where we slap some templates on this until we get the kaiju Go-Bunny. After that we get to Stage Three, the Mecha-Go-Bunnies!

And if you don't want third party, a sarrukh with minimal spell support can whip up something identical in an afternoon. The only difference is his bunny would have scales, and that I actually have to spend gold and pass some helaciously difficult caster level checks to do this.

[Razanir]

So, for anyone who's good at crunching numbers, how does the Iron-Golem Bunny Brigade (IG-Bb, pronounced "ig-bee" for short :smallbiggrin:) stack up against the Ultimate Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280524)?

I think we just discovered how the world will end. The IGBB will have just gotten back from depopulating Deities and Demigods, only to find the Ultimate Tarrasque woken up... One fight later, the world no longer exists

[rweird]

I'd give it to the bunnies, the bunnies could spam clones that beat the ultimate Tarrasque to unconsciousness and find someone to use Wish, if they don't have it already. with 200+ HD they'd have a BaB higher than its AC, big T has about the HP one of the bunnies has, no DR or anything really to stop them from punching it in the face until it dies.

[Jack_Simth]

I'd give it to the bunnies, the bunnies could spam clones that beat the ultimate Tarrasque to unconsciousness and find someone to use Wish, if they don't have it already. with 200+ HD they'd have a BaB higher than its AC, big T has about the HP one of the bunnies has, no DR or anything really to stop them from punching it in the face until it dies.
The Wish is unnecessary. No, really. See, Mr. T isn't immune to Starvation and Thirst, and Starvation and Thirst explicitly bypass regeneration, and the con checks for starvation and thirst don't have nat-20/nat-1 clauses - which means if the bunnies apply enough nonlethal damage to Mr. T, he'll be down long enough that he'll fail enough con checks to accumulate more nonlethal starvation and thirst damage than he has HP, even assuming ideal rolls on Mr. T's part. It technically doesn't kill Mr. T to do this, but if he's not getting back up without help... does it really matter whether or not he's technically dead?

[rweird]

The Wish is unnecessary. No, really. See, Mr. T isn't immune to Starvation and Thirst, and Starvation and Thirst explicitly bypass regeneration, and the con checks for starvation and thirst don't have nat-20/nat-1 clauses - which means if the bunnies apply enough nonlethal damage to Mr. T, he'll be down long enough that he'll fail enough con checks to accumulate more nonlethal starvation and thirst damage than he has HP, even assuming ideal rolls on Mr. T's part. It technically doesn't kill Mr. T to do this, but if he's not getting back up without help... does it really matter whether or not he's technically dead?

I know, I was going for minimum time, though that might be better.

Yes, if he isn't dead he can't be res'd and you need to make a DC 535 CL check to heal him with Wish or Miracle or whatever meaning he is far more likely to be "dead" for good.

[nobodez]

The Wish is unnecessary. No, really. See, Mr. T isn't immune to Starvation and Thirst, and Starvation and Thirst explicitly bypass regeneration, and the con checks for starvation and thirst don't have nat-20/nat-1 clauses - which means if the bunnies apply enough nonlethal damage to Mr. T, he'll be down long enough that he'll fail enough con checks to accumulate more nonlethal starvation and thirst damage than he has HP, even assuming ideal rolls on Mr. T's part. It technically doesn't kill Mr. T to do this, but if he's not getting back up without help... does it really matter whether or not he's technically dead?

Okay, I'll have to remember this the next (and first) time I fight Mr. T.

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, I'll have to remember this the next (and first) time I fight Mr. T.
Note: The Wish is only unnecessary if you have the ability to deal an *absurd* amount of damage to Mr. T.

Assuming "ideal rolls" (from his perspective - 20's on his checks, 1's on any of the damage dice dealt to him) on Mr. T (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)'s part for the Starvation and Thirst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#starvationAndThirst) rules:
Water (fastest, but a spring rain might wake him up):
"1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score"
"Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage"
Con of 35 (+12 mod): Fails when it hits DC 33, which takes 82 hours (24 hours[base] + 35 hours[con]+23[additional time until the DC reaches 33]), and Mr. T takes 1 nonlethal damage per hour after that. Mr. T has 858 hp, so another 858 hours. Total: 24+35+23+858=940 hours.
Mr. T has Regeneration-40. 10 rounds per minute, 60 minutes per hour. Mr. T heals 24000 nonlethal damage per hour. You need to deal enough to keep him down for 940 hours, so that's his full HP total (858) + 940 (time for thirst to exceed his HP max under ideal for him conditions)*24000 (regen per hour)+1 (to make sure he's unconscious)=22,560,859 nonlethal damage to be certain. But if he's in an area where it will never rain nor flood, he's then stuck until someone comes along and spills water down his throat, at which point he starts healing again.

Food (slower, but a spring rain won't wake him up unexpectedly):
Same assumptions on Mr. T's ideal rolls.
"A character can go without food for 3 days"; "After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage"
So 3 days + time to DC 33 (23 days until he starts failing) + his full HP total in days (858). So that's 3+23+858 days = 884 days. 24 hours per day, so Mr. T regenerates 576,000 nonlethal per day. 884 days, and we need to hit him for his full HP total, plus one, on top of that, so we need to deal 488,448,859 damage to keep him down for good in a wet environment. Then he stays dead until something climbs down his throat into his gullet.

Those are worst-case scenarios to keep him down for good using the as-listed Mr. T. The numbers are absurd, but then, so are the bunnies.

[nobodez]

Note: The Wish is only unnecessary if you have the ability to deal an *absurd* amount of damage to Mr. T.

Assuming "ideal rolls" (from his perspective - 20's on his checks, 1's on any of the damage dice dealt to him) on Mr. T (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)'s part for the Starvation and Thirst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#starvationAndThirst) rules:
Water (fastest, but a spring rain might wake him up):
"1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score"
"Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage"
Con of 35 (+12 mod): Fails when it hits DC 33, which takes 82 hours (24 hours[base] + 35 hours[con]+23[additional time until the DC reaches 33]), and Mr. T takes 1 nonlethal damage per hour after that. Mr. T has 858 hp, so another 858 hours. Total: 24+35+23+858=940 hours.
Mr. T has Regeneration-40. 10 rounds per minute, 60 minutes per hour. Mr. T heals 24000 nonlethal damage per hour. You need to deal enough to keep him down for 940 hours, so that's his full HP total (858) + 940 (time for thirst to exceed his HP max under ideal for him conditions)*24000 (regen per hour)+1 (to make sure he's unconscious)=22,560,859 nonlethal damage to be certain. But if he's in an area where it will never rain nor flood, he's then stuck until someone comes along and spills water down his throat, at which point he starts healing again.

Food (slower, but a spring rain won't wake him up unexpectedly):
Same assumptions on Mr. T's ideal rolls.
"A character can go without food for 3 days"; "After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage"
So 3 days + time to DC 33 (23 days until he starts failing) + his full HP total in days (858). So that's 3+23+858 days = 884 days. 24 hours per day, so Mr. T regenerates 576,000 nonlethal per day. 884 days, and we need to hit him for his full HP total, plus one, on top of that, so we need to deal 488,448,859 damage to keep him down for good in a wet environment. Then he stays dead until something climbs down his throat into his gullet.

Those are worst-case scenarios to keep him down for good using the as-listed Mr. T. The numbers are absurd, but then, so are the bunnies.

Well, it's not that bad. 22 Million is certainly doable (especially since you don't actually have to do it all at once, just more than 40 points a round). And since it's all about DoT anyway, 22 million over 940 hours (39 days, 4 hours) is the same scale as 488 million over 884 days (21,216 hours).

[Skysaber]

... using an interpretation of DR that says that falling rocks ignore DR.

A rules decision he did not have the authority to make.

He is not my DM, nor will he ever be after some of those outbursts. In fact, I found his tone so offensive that he has the dishonor of being the first, and so far only, thing I've put onto my ignore list.

I went to my DM for an official ruling on the subject, and his reply, "DR applies to all physical damage. It doesn't matter if it comes from attacks, falling rocks, you stabbing yourself, or stepping on a rake."

I then went and polled the other DMs my group has used in the past 5 years or so, and they all upheld that ruling unanimously.

So I don't care if the other opinion comes from Monte Cook, my DM has spoken.

[Deepbluediver]

I'd give it to the bunnies, the bunnies could spam clones that beat the ultimate Tarrasque to unconsciousness and find someone to use Wish, if they don't have it already. with 200+ HD they'd have a BaB higher than its AC, big T has about the HP one of the bunnies has, no DR or anything really to stop them from punching it in the face until it dies.

It has DR 15/Epic (don't know if that really helps but it's not nothing) and it can fly.

Also, I'm not sure I fully understand the cloning mechanic, but don't they get weaker each time it happens? It seems like with 60+ attacks per round Ultimate T could keep them at bay for a while. Just asking out of curiousity; I don't really have a stake in defending either.


Note: The Wish is only unnecessary if you have the ability to deal an *absurd* amount of damage to Mr. T.
*snip*
Those are worst-case scenarios to keep him down for good using the as-listed Mr. T. The numbers are absurd, but then, so are the bunnies.

It gets worse. If you go back and check my post, the Tarrasque I linked is not the SRD Tarrasque, but another version with 17 templates stacked on it.

It's got roughly 9000 HP, a Fort save bonus of +118, Fast Healing 5 (does that stack with Regeneration?), and special abilities like-

Tainted Constriction (Ex): Once the ultimate tarrasque has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4+13 points of Consitution. At the same time, the tarrasque regains 10 lost hit points.

[AzureNightshade]

I would just like to thank you all for a rather enjoyable read.

[rweird]

Skysaber: I was treating it by RaW, I know that it is a stupid thing to actually happen, and in a real game, I'm pretty sure Hell won't attack by dropping rocks, it was more of a thought challenge of how to beat them. I am sorry if you took it to be offensive. I probably would rule DR applying too, though by RaW it doesn't. I am not sure what I think of this idea, it is creative, absolutely crazy, and might just be an unstoppable army. Kind of was troubleshooting to see if they could be made even better.

Sorry that it caused offense.

I in now way meant to say that that would actually happen in you game and in no way believe it would. I am sorry if I did not make that clear.

Deepbluediver: I mean a single one uses BoB to get 50 clones that pummel big T, and he keeps making clones that pummel big T, not the clones making clones. Sure he could kill some (eventually), though I don't think he could kill 10/round (the amount needed to overcome rate of production, rough estimate, assuming unfavorable luck for the bunnies). It may be able to survive for a while, but not forever. For DR, I'm pretty sure the Bunny's attacks are treated as epic due to Iron Colossi having DR 20/Epic and Adamantine.

[TuggyNE]

It's got roughly 9000 HP, a Fort save bonus of +118, Fast Healing 5 (does that stack with Regeneration?), and special abilities like-

Fast Healing does stack with Regeneration; both work on non-lethal damage first, and if there's none left Regeneration stops and Fast Healing works on lethal damage.

[rweird]

Fast Healing does stack with Regeneration; both work on non-lethal damage first, and if there's none left Regeneration stops and Fast Healing works on lethal damage.

It also says about Fast Healing that "Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation," (Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing)) so it still will die, it just increases the damage threshold to 45 from 40.

[Sith_Happens]

The IGBB really does need to be able to fly, in any case.

[Deepbluediver]

Deepbluediver: I mean a single one uses BoB to get 50 clones that pummel big T, and he keeps making clones that pummel big T, not the clones making clones. Sure he could kill some (eventually), though I don't think he could kill 10/round (the amount needed to overcome rate of production, rough estimate, assuming unfavorable luck for the bunnies). It may be able to survive for a while, but not forever. For DR, I'm pretty sure the Bunny's attacks are treated as epic due to Iron Colossi having DR 20/Epic and Adamantine.

I don't want to get into an argument over tactics and restart the "rocks fall everyone (maybe?) dies" fight, but I was thinking if the Tarrasque is faster and tougher than just one IG-B, it could kill the original, and then works its way down the line, making them progressively weaker.


The IGBB really does need to be able to fly, in any case.

Yes! What splatbook has the stats for jetpacks? Do we need to branch out from standrd D&D to find those?

[rweird]

I don't want to get into an argument over tactics and restart the "rocks fall everyone (maybe?) dies" fight, but I was thinking if the Tarrasque is faster and tougher than just one IG-B, it could kill the original, and then works its way down the line, making them progressively weaker.

I'm not sure why it'd be tougher, both have about the same HP, though the bunnies have almost thrice the HD of the Tarrasque, it might be able to kill one of them, though I don't think it could in 1 round, and on the first bunny action, BoBs swarm the Tarrasque while the original moves away and sends in waves of minions.

[angry_bear]

Either an arbitrarily large amount of Prismatic Walls, or an impossible amount of extremely powerful artifacts, used by ridiculously strong characters could work against the Bunnies. And even the army of artifact wielding, near godly soldiers might not work seeing as how they still have to face off against giant bunny constructs. The main problem is the anti magic field they each produce, if that can be taken care of; then it's just a case of defeating epic level threats... :smalleek:

[Jigokuro]

Well, at least Pun-Pun still kills them all instantly. :/