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The Giant
2013-05-05, 02:05 AM
New comic is up.

Mystic Muse
2013-05-05, 02:08 AM
Darn. I thought the OOTS had them there.

Scowling Dragon
2013-05-05, 02:10 AM
Giant you brilliant, BRILLIANT, man.

Bulldog Psion
2013-05-05, 02:10 AM
Well, I wonder if things can get much worse for the Order here? Now they're drooling in the grip of a spell while the real Xykon is on his way. :smallbiggrin:

razovor
2013-05-05, 02:13 AM
How did Belkar come back from the dead?

Craft (Cheese)
2013-05-05, 02:13 AM
Well, I wonder if things can get much worse for the Order here? Now they're drooling in the grip of a spell while the real Xykon is on his way. :smallbiggrin:

But is Scruffy okay!?

RCgothic
2013-05-05, 02:15 AM
Varsuvius wasn't affected by those Runes...:smallwink:

Ravens_cry
2013-05-05, 02:15 AM
NOOooooooo . . .

Mage Paradox
2013-05-05, 02:16 AM
That was a bit of a cheat. I saw Redcloak with the eye patch, and thought it might actually be real after all. Then it's an illusion, just like I speculated in advance. How can the illusion show Redcloak in a state that the order has never seen him in? I guess the Giant figured it'd take all the drama out of the fight if we knew it was an illusion all along.

Plus no way Xykon remembers Roy (I'm sure he'll remember V though).

EDIT- I also notice that the Giant puts Redcloak in a forcecage, and Xykon tries to Superb Dispel it, which shouldn't work (but if he hadn't been disrupted, we would have evidence for whether Superb Dispelling has a homebrew function in the comic that lets it dispel forcecage).

rodneyAnonymous
2013-05-05, 02:17 AM
How did Belkar come back from the dead?

Only the last frame is really happening.

Seth1221
2013-05-05, 02:18 AM
It was going way to easy to be real. And when Belkar died it was obvious it is some sort of illusion.

Great (half?)decapitation art!:smallbiggrin:

Habakkuk
2013-05-05, 02:19 AM
That was awesome!

Paladin Steve
2013-05-05, 02:19 AM
mother of god, this is getting intense. to fill in why v isn't effected, V was never really there.

The Giant
2013-05-05, 02:20 AM
How can the illusion show Redcloak in a state that the order has never seen him in?

Check the eyepatch carefully.

cabbagesquirrel
2013-05-05, 02:21 AM
Damn those high level illusions. I do love the drool from Elan at the end. Can't even be hypnotised cooly.

WindStruck
2013-05-05, 02:21 AM
Dang, that was a good fight, even though it wasn't real, I guess... two things I wonder though...

Since redcloak did have an eyepatch, do the runes actually take information from reality? Would it really be possible for Roy to beat Xykon like that?

Also it did seem to go "perfectly" in Roy's mind. I mean, I think he wanted Belkar dead, for one thing... but makes me think each other person has their own different fantasy they're going through right now.



Check the eyepatch carefully.
Yes, the eyepatch is on the wrong eye. But how would Roy know Red Cloak even uses one at all now?

Mc. Lovin'
2013-05-05, 02:24 AM
Oh my god the moment I saw "Belkar's dead Roy"! I thought you'd killed another one giant! The fact that Durkon's death was so unexpected made me believe you might have done it again with him. Awesome comics

Seth1221
2013-05-05, 02:25 AM
So the eye-patch is on the wrong eye (no pun:smalltongue:) but why is there an eye-patch in the first place?

The Giant
2013-05-05, 02:26 AM
Yes, the eyepatch is on the wrong eye. But how would Roy know Red Cloak even uses one at all now?

Because O-Chul and Vaarsuvius both told him that Redcloak got stabbed in the eye. Just not which one. And the Order has almost no understanding of Redcloak's power level, such as whether or not he can cast 7th level clerical spells like Regeneration.

Spleen_
2013-05-05, 02:27 AM
The Giant's playing fast and loose with those Belkar fake-outs.

It is nice that we get some insight into Roy's strategy, and how much he has internalized the inevitability of Belkar's death.

Anteros
2013-05-05, 02:27 AM
O'chul or V must have told them about Redcloak losing the eye. No big deal, and it explains why it's on the wrong side.

wzeller
2013-05-05, 02:28 AM
Because O-Chul and Vaarsuvius both told him that Redcloak got stabbed in the eye. Just not which one.

Wow. That is some impressive plot detail. You never fail to amaze me, Giant, with the depth of story you can give to stick figures.

Incredible.

shamgar001
2013-05-05, 02:28 AM
Check the eyepatch carefully.

I can see it's green, when it should be black. I guess the illusion is determined by the spell itself and not the memories of the victims.

I guess we now know what move Roy learned from Horace in the afterlife.

~EDIT~
Never mind, it's always been that color/. :smallredface:

Mage Paradox
2013-05-05, 02:28 AM
I was looking for an eye patch last comic, and assumed Redcloak's head being out of view was the "tell" that this was an illusion. I can see why he got it, to throw readers like me, but at the same time there is no logical reason the Order would think he had an eye patch (wrong eye or not), since none of them have seen Redcloak with an eye patch, and the illusion is assumedly getting the images from the minds of the 4 members of the OOTS.

EDIT- missed the reply. Eh, if you say so.

R00kie
2013-05-05, 02:29 AM
Okay they are all dreaming a set of events which never happened.

So what is Belkar dreaming now? In his dream state is he exploring some afterlife?

Interestingly which afterlife tells us a lot about how Belkar views himself. Few evil characters actually view themselves as evil. (Belkar is probably an exception to that rule - he's pretty self-aware).

Hogwarts9876
2013-05-05, 02:29 AM
Theory: Maybe Belkar is actually dead now. Assuming they're all experiencing the same fantasy, he now 'believes' himself to be dead, and as such might stop breathing.
Or maybe I just like coming up with theories. :smalltongue:

treyh37
2013-05-05, 02:30 AM
very nice comic and its not just the eye patch on the wrong side redcloak also has his old holy symbol/phylactery on instead of the diamond shaped one

Swiftbow
2013-05-05, 02:30 AM
Redcloak has the old phylactery/holy symbol, too.

Lost
2013-05-05, 02:31 AM
Thank you Giant.

Rockphed
2013-05-05, 02:34 AM
I could have sworn that Thanh removed his eye in his epic, though ultimately unsuccessful struggle to take down Xykon. The Order have seen him since. Presumably, he related "I took Xykon's Goblin's eye." Even though regeneration is a fairly straight forward spell, the Order are all fools, and did not connect that to him getting his eye back.

shamgar001
2013-05-05, 02:35 AM
I was looking for an eye patch last comic, and assumed Redcloak's head being out of view was the "tell" that this was an illusion. I can see why he got it, to throw readers like me, but at the same time there is no logical reason the Order would think he had an eye patch (wrong eye or not), since none of them have seen Redcloak with an eye patch, and the illusion is assumedly getting the images from the minds of the 4 members of the OOTS.

EDIT- missed the reply. Eh, if you say so.

If they had seen Redcloak with his eye, it would have just meant that made the assumption that he regenerated it himself. Either way is equally logical, and them assuming the eyepatch makes for a better story.

Sith_Happens
2013-05-05, 02:35 AM
EDIT- I also notice that the Giant puts Redcloak in a forcecage, and Xykon tries to Superb Dispel it, which shouldn't work (but if he hadn't been disrupted, we would have evidence for whether Superb Dispelling has a homebrew function in the comic that lets it dispel forcecage).

Not a houserule. The Dispel seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm) cares not for your "can't be dispelled" clauses. In fact, it even works on (Su).

thereaper
2013-05-05, 02:35 AM
I didn't realize the eyepatch was on the wrong eye, but I was pretty much certain it was an illusion by the second panel. Things were just moving way too fast.

But if things had gone on more for more than a page or so, we would have felt jipped when it turned out to be an illusion, so this was really the best way for it to go.

oppyu
2013-05-05, 02:36 AM
Holy everloving crap. Giant you brilliant bastard. I'm sorry if I'm cursing more than this forum generally allows, but... hooooooly crap.

Also, the 'there's no way this is an illusion you foolish epileptic tree-huggers' crowd? Suck it. :smalltongue:

LightPhoenix
2013-05-05, 02:37 AM
That was a neat bit of storytelling explaining how the Order is still a threat, how the Order can beat Xykon, and yet still be a fake-out. The next time they fight him, I'm willing to bet this is how it goes before complications set in.i

Spleen_
2013-05-05, 02:37 AM
Also, if I may say, it's so adorable that Roy hallucinates Xykon calling him by name. He really wants the guy to acknowledge him, doesn't he?

treyh37
2013-05-05, 02:38 AM
this comic also makes you wonder how much of 885 happened as well (ie when did the runes activate)

although the party order suggests its the second to last panel in 885

Babale
2013-05-05, 02:39 AM
Why would Roy think that Redcloak grew his eye back? All he knows is that he had his eye poked out. Since that missing eye has no ingame effect, he probably never gave it thought again and didn't stop to consider whether Redcloak would regenerate it or not. Also, notice that not only is the eyepatch on the wrong eye, but the phylactery is wrong. Redcloak has a square shaped holy symbol now.

Mage Paradox
2013-05-05, 02:39 AM
1) I went back and checked. Obviously it's the Giant's comic, and he can write whatever he wants. But we all make mistakes, and in this instance he has made a mistake. Elan, V and Durkon all see Redcloak cast disintegrate on Hinjo (a 7th level spell), so they would have known he was of a sufficiently high level to use regeneration. In addition I'm not sure what level of summoning he needed for that Kraken, but I'm thinking that would be pretty high too. EDIT- and on checking it is also level 7, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm
2) No, the regular rules do not allow Superb Dispelling to dispel forcecage. If Rich wants to let it work in his comic, that's his business. I am just explaining that the regular rules simply don't support it, something others have also backed up.

Chess Tyrant
2013-05-05, 02:41 AM
Phew. For a moment there, I thought Rich had written the comic while drunk or something...

ghoul-n
2013-05-05, 02:41 AM
Started reading OOTS when it was like in it's 200-ish.

First time ever I have an urge to tell some unrelated person about all this.

Kokomo
2013-05-05, 02:44 AM
I'm not sure how Redcloak's eyepatch (wrong eye/Right-Eye or not) is explained if the illusion is drawn from their memories -- perhaps were they informed of Redcloak's change in physical appearance through the Resistance-Hinjo-Order Sending network (as well as Vaarsuvius and O-chul's original accounts of how he lost it), offscreen? And if that's the case, and they should also know that Redcloak is using the new amulet, they may also be assuming that if Redcloak and Xykon were in the ziggurat at all at this point, they'd have already found the phylactery and Redcloak would have re-introduced the old amulet/phylactery back into his attire, rather than sticking with the new square one? The Order wouldn't know about the spat they had regarding that.

These are some big jumps I'm making about the Order's knowledge, though. If it's Girard-crafted, the spell may be Epic and work in an entirely different way.


Also, if I may say, it's so adorable that Roy hallucinates Xykon calling him by name. He really wants the guy to acknowledge him, doesn't he?

Hah! Great catch. And his last word, at that.

rgd20
2013-05-05, 02:45 AM
Given Belkar "died" I wonder what his illusion is feeding him?

Bob

Craft (Cheese)
2013-05-05, 02:46 AM
That was a bit of a cheat. I saw Redcloak with the eye patch, and thought it might actually be real after all. Then it's an illusion, just like I speculated in advance. How can the illusion show Redcloak in a state that the order has never seen him in? I guess the Giant figured it'd take all the drama out of the fight if we knew it was an illusion all along.

I figured that the spell is capable of gathering information from the real world, not just the stuff in the target's mind. Epic magic can probably do that.

Starwulf
2013-05-05, 02:46 AM
Looks like all the people who suspected the runes were casting an illusion and that Xykon wasn't actually there were in fact correct. Very nice twist. Shame it really didn't happen though, would have been a pretty epic way to beat down Xykon for a little while(until he regenerates at his phylactery).

Ast
2013-05-05, 02:47 AM
@ Mage Paradaox:

The thing with superd dispelling is not that simple. The discussion about the rules it uses is ancient. The fact that for some reason the EXAMPLE of a spell called Super Dispelling listed in SRD/ELH simply states it works like Dispel Magic doesn't change two facts:

1) It's based on the Dispel Seed which contradicts your statement and therefore
2) It's literally IMPOSSIBLE to make a Superb Dispelling spell that doesn't dispel Forcecage without using house rules.

Anteros
2013-05-05, 02:48 AM
1) I went back and checked. Obviously it's the Giant's comic, and he can write whatever he wants. But we all make mistakes, and in this instance he has made a mistake. Elan, V and Durkon all see Redcloak cast disintegrate on Hinjo (a 7th level spell), so they would have known he was of a sufficiently high level to use regeneration. In addition I'm not sure what level of summoning he needed for that Kraken, but I'm thinking that would be pretty high too. EDIT- and on checking it is also level 7, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm
2) No, the regular rules do not allow Superb Dispelling to dispel forcecage. If Rich wants to let it work in his comic, that's his business. I am just explaining that the regular rules simply don't support it, something others have also backed up.

What makes you think that Roy, Elan, and Haley even have the cleric's spell list memorized in the first place? All they know is that he got his eye poked out because their friend told them so. They almost certainly don't know how an epic spell like superb dispelling would work. Considering that everything they are seeing is an illusion based on the character's perception...rules lawyering is even less useful than usual.

There are a lot of options here. Claiming that the author made a mistake simply because it doesn't match up with your personal interpretation is obnoxious.

The Giant
2013-05-05, 02:48 AM
1) I went back and checked. Obviously it's the Giant's comic, and he can write whatever he wants. But we all make mistakes, and in this instance he has made a mistake. Elan, V and Durkon all see Redcloak cast disintegrate on Hinjo (a 7th level spell), so they would have known he was of a sufficiently high level to use regeneration. In addition I'm not sure what level of summoning he needed for that Kraken, but I'm thinking that would be pretty high too.

First, it's a 6th level Wizard spell. Now, who, of the four characters here, do you think has enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know that the spell is a higher level for clerics using it from the Destruction domain than it is for Vaarsuvius, their teammate, who uses it all the time? (Answer: None of them.)

And second, don't tell me I made a mistake in my own comic. I could not give one good goddamn what the rules say about anything. There are no mistakes, because there are no rules. NONE. No, not even that one. Further, I do not care what you think is a "reasonable" assumption for them to have made. This is the assumption they DID make. Period. End of discussion.

adulus
2013-05-05, 02:48 AM
Alright, the runes show the victims what they want to see. Either it takes a few rounds of perception checks to work or it gets activated by a trigger. So, in Roy's case, they stop fooling around with the LG and suddenly fight Xykon and Roy heroically takes Xykon out singlehandedly, while losing the one member of his team he both wanted and expected to die anyway.

Haley is probably seeing a vision of Durkula being devamped then blowing the gates and thwarting Xykon before running off with Elan to shtoink like bunnies. Elan is probably seeing Roy congratulating him and finally acknowledging that they couldn't have beaten Xykon without him, before running off with Haley to shtoink like bunnies.

Belkar is a bit tougher. He's probably getting to take out Durkon himself, then retiring at a ripe old age with the cat to enjoy more milk, woman and gold than he knows what to do with.

Mage Paradox
2013-05-05, 02:49 AM
@ Mage Paradaox:

The thing with superd dispelling is not that simple. The discussion about the rules it uses is ancient. The fact that for some reason the EXAMPLE of a spell called Super Dispelling listed in SRD/ELH simply states it works like Dispel Magic doesn't change two facts:

1) It's based on the Dispel Seed which contradicts your statement and therefore
2) It's literally IMPOSSIBLE to make a Superb Dispelling spell that doesn't dispel Forcecage without using house rules.

That's simply not true. This post explains it well:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15149035&postcount=94

Wonton
2013-05-05, 02:49 AM
Wow, I almost had a heart attack when Belkar and Xykon both died in the course of two pages. I was thinking "no way, Belkar's death deserves at least a 10-page lead-up, and Xykon's should get at least fifty!". Then I got to the last panel...

and didn't understand what had happened, so I came to the forums and now I get it. :P

By the way, Xykon saying Roy's name was a nice touch.

P.S. Now that I've read it the second time, the illusion sequence gets progressively more purple-hued as the comic goes along. Subtle, but effective. Well done, Giant.

P.P.S. Mr. Scruffy dying in the 8th panel may be the saddest thing ever.

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 02:49 AM
Ha! Oh man, when I saw he had the eyepatch I was sure they were real after all, but nope! Well played, Rich. Well played.

In retrospect, missing Blackwing should have been the giveaway. Everyone forgets about V's familiar, so of course the Order did.

Lost
2013-05-05, 02:50 AM
So is Mr Scruffy under the effects of the illusion as well?

JessmanCA
2013-05-05, 02:51 AM
The runes actually activate inbetween panels 4 and 5 of 886. Note the pallette swap at that point. So they are actually fighting Xykon, but Belkar isn't dead.

I wonder: is Xykon under the effect of the runes too?

Wonton
2013-05-05, 02:53 AM
The runes actually activate inbetween panels 4 and 5 of 886. Note the pallette swap at that point. So they are actually fighting Xykon, but Belkar isn't dead.

I wonder: is Xykon under the effect of the runes too?

It's not really a palette swap, the whole comic just gets slightly more purple-ish with each panel. Compare the colour of Roy's face in panel 6 with the colour of his face as he kills Xykon.

rodneyAnonymous
2013-05-05, 02:54 AM
They also think Vaarsuvius is undamaged.

Kolero
2013-05-05, 02:55 AM
The eye-patch on the wrong eye was pretty brilliant. I'd never notice it without being told because I am so used to seeing sprites flipped.

So, I guess the fake Redcloak is the true wrong-eye.

I have to give props to the giant. While I was reading the dialogue, I had a feeling something was amiss. The illusory Xykon and Redcloak just don't have the same "voice" as the real ones. RC in particular talks just like he did in the dungeon of Dorukan, which makes since because the Order hasn't had much face-to-face contact with him since then. That didn't stop me from audibly gasping at Belkar's and then Xykno's death before the reveal.

I'm left puzzled what the fake RC was referring to when he says that Xykon "already used that line" though.

Mage Paradox
2013-05-05, 02:56 AM
What makes you think that Roy, Elan, and Haley even have the cleric's spell list memorized in the first place? All they know is that he got his eye poked out because their friend told them so. They almost certainly don't know how an epic spell like superb dispelling would work. Considering that everything they are seeing is an illusion based on the character's perception...rules lawyering is even less useful than usual.

There are a lot of options here. Claiming that the author made a mistake simply because it doesn't match up with your personal interpretation is obnoxious.

The Author responded to my initial remark about how it "seems like an error" by saying that the Order do not have any idea Redcloak is able to cast level 7 Cleric Spells. Redcloak has cast two level 7 Cleric spells in front of them though (one of which is in the general Cleric pool, not the Destruction Domain), so the remark the author made in response to my post technically was wrong, in the sense that the order have as much reason to think Redcloak is able to cast level 7 spells as they do to think he's missing an eye. Like I said, it's his comic, he can give whatever explanation he likes. I suspect when he wrote his reply he had simply forgotten those 2 instances.

Ast
2013-05-05, 02:56 AM
That's simply not true. This post explains it well:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15149035&postcount=94

It doesn't explain two things: 1) why it has correct Spellcraft DC for a Dispel Seed and 2) where is the mitigating factor for not having all the features of a Dispel Seed.

But if you want to go that way, the rules state simply that those are only examples of spells listed that STILL need to be researched. Since by the rules of researching and creating epic spells you cannot invent a Superb Dispelling spell without all the perks of Dispel Seed and without any house ruled mitigating factors, the only Superb Dispelling spell Xykon can research is one that dispels Forcecage.

sam79
2013-05-05, 02:57 AM
Great strip. Just...great. Before the update, I was pretty much torn on the whole Illusion/non-Illusion debate. When I say Reddie with his eyepatch, and not remembering the eye he lost, I thought, "Wow, real". Elan's song in the second panel made me doubt a little, but mostly made me laugh. When Belkar got toasted, I was still thinking it could be real, as I've long thought it will be Xykon who does for him. But when Mr. Scruffy was so causually and brutally snuffed out...then the pedulum swung. It had to be an illusion. Or at least, I was really hoping so!

(by the way, the art in the 6th panel is awesome.)

So when the Order started winning in the second page...yeah, pretty clear that it was not real! Great last frame.

(by the way, in Roy's list of people he's avenging, he starts with his Dad's master, but there is no mention of his master's son. I know the list is hardly exhaustive, but even so, worth noting, I thought.)

Lissou
2013-05-05, 02:57 AM
Really nice. I love how there were more and more hints that none of this was true, until the biggest one, when Xykon says "Roy" right before he dies... yeah, right.

I wonder if every member of the Order is experiencing a completely different illusion right now? Or can they hear each other and are they integrating it in their own "dream"? I guess we'll figure that out.

EDIT: Also, I gasped when Mr Scruffy died. I don't really care that Belkar is still alive, but I'm really glad Scruffy is too. We can't see him on the last panel though so I wonder if the illusion works on him or if they didn't bother to make the rune apply to animals?

JessmanCA
2013-05-05, 02:57 AM
It's not really a palette swap, the whole comic just gets slightly more purple-ish with each panel. Compare the colour of Roy's face in panel 6 with the colour of his face as he kills Xykon.

I know, but the fading in of the palette swap begins in panel 5. Look at panels 1 through 4, they're regular color.

rodneyAnonymous
2013-05-05, 02:57 AM
I'm left puzzled what the fake RC was referring to when he says that Xykon "already used that line" though.

It's not a mystery, he is referring to the second panel of the first page.

:xykon: "Hey! No one shoots the goblin in the face but me!"

prism6691
2013-05-05, 02:58 AM
When i saw belkar die i thought it was still possible to be real, but then mr. scruffy. I knew it couldn't be. No one harms the scruffinator :)

Stricken
2013-05-05, 03:00 AM
I remember the previous comic's thread pointing out how Redcloak's eyepatch was just tantalisingly out-of-frame, which made me associate the question of "illusion or not" with whether he'd have an eyepatch or not. So as soon as Redcloak walked into this comic with an eyepatch, I thought to myself, "Oh no, this is actually happening!" I would never have noticed it was on the wrong eye (let alone the holy symbol being the old one too).

What masterful tricks. They got me hook, line and sinker – for a good while. I tip my hat to you, Giant. For every person who rules-nitpicks you, there are bound to be ten times as many fans who are just blown away by how excellent your storytelling is.

sam79
2013-05-05, 03:01 AM
The runes actually activate inbetween panels 4 and 5 of 886. Note the pallette swap at that point. So they are actually fighting Xykon, but Belkar isn't dead.

I wonder: is Xykon under the effect of the runes too?

If that was the case, surely the eye-patch would be in the correct place?

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 03:04 AM
I could have sworn that Thanh removed his eye in his epic, though ultimately unsuccessful struggle to take down Xykon. The Order have seen him since. Presumably, he related "I took Xykon's Goblin's eye." Even though regeneration is a fairly straight forward spell, the Order are all fools, and did not connect that to him getting his eye back.

You mean O-Chul, not Thanh, right?


Wow, I almost had a heart attack when Belkar and Xykon both died in the course of two pages. I was thinking "no way, Belkar's death deserves at least a 10-page lead-up, and Xykon's should get at least fifty!". Then I got to the last panel...

and didn't understand what had happened, so I came to the forums and now I get it. :P

By the way, Xykon saying Roy's name was a nice touch.

P.S. Now that I've read it the second time, the illusion sequence gets progressively more purple-hued as the comic goes along. Subtle, but effective. Well done, Giant.

P.P.S. Mr. Scruffy dying in the 8th panel may be the saddest thing ever.

Ha! I didn't even notice the progressive purple hues.

... I also did not note Scruffy dying. Thank god it's an illusion. I love that little cat.


The eye-patch on the wrong eye was pretty brilliant. I'd never notice it without being told because I am so used to seeing sprites flipped.

So, I guess the fake Redcloak is the true wrong-eye.

I have to give props to the giant. While I was reading the dialogue, I had a feeling something was amiss. The illusory Xykon and Redcloak just don't have the same "voice" as the real ones. RC in particular talks just like he did in the dungeon of Dorukan, which makes since because the Order hasn't had much face-to-face contact with him since then. That didn't stop me from audibly gasping at Belkar's and then Xykno's death before the reveal.

Yeah, their voices seemed kinda off to me, too. And I can't believe I didn't notice the eyepatch flip - that should have been a dead giveaway, but nope, we all totally fell for it! I did notice that his holy symbol was round vs. square again, but I couldn't remember if he'd gotten a replacement one that looked more phylactery-like, so I didn't think much of it.


I'm left puzzled what the fake RC was referring to when he says that Xykon "already used that line" though.

Early in the fight, he said "No one shoots the goblin in the face but me!" So he repeated that line later.

Psyren
2013-05-05, 03:04 AM
Thank goodness the gate has some defenses left.

Unfortunately, they appear to be enchantment rather than illusion, which won't stop Xykon at all.

The DC must have been pretty high to stop Roy, but that's not surprising if they came from Girard.


That's simply not true.

Given that (a) all epic spells are literally made from scratch and (b) there is no rule saying that the sample ones suggested for characters by the ELH have totally unique names, it's perfectly possible to make your own "Superb Dispelling" that follows the rules of the seeds themselves rather than the text of the preprinted one.

It isn't even homebrew or breaking the rules - literally by the rules of epic spell development, you are making your own. Unless you have a quote from the Giant that says "Xykon is using the one from ELH pg. 87 with no variations," then you can't authoritatively state what is and isn't true regarding it.

Mage Paradox
2013-05-05, 03:04 AM
It doesn't explain two things: 1) why it has correct Spellcraft DC for a Dispel Seed and 2) where is the mitigating factor for not having all the features of a Dispel Seed.

But if you want to go that way, the rules state simply that those are only examples of spells listed that STILL need to be researched. Since by the rules of researching and creating epic spells you cannot invent a Superb Dispelling spell without all the perks of Dispel Seed and without any house ruled mitigating factors, the only Superb Dispelling spell Xykon can research is one that dispels Forcecage.

This has been gone over before. Alot of people do not agree with this explanation. I am one of them. Superb Dispelling is not a theoretical spell that doesn't exist (as I have heard some people say). It exists, many set epic spells exist, and if you pick to develop that specific spell of it, then it does not dispel an AMF under the rules. Whether a homebrewed version of it would work differently is another matter, and someone else can do the calculation on it. Secondly, the Dispel Seed doesn't dispel everything. It CAN dispel things it doesn't normally dispel, but it doesn't say it necessarily will in any given instance (and what the limits and lines drawn are). There are spells it would be outright absurd for Superb Dispelling to stop, so clearly it doesn't dispel anything. The written version just doesn't give it that ability.

JessmanCA
2013-05-05, 03:04 AM
If that was the case, surely the eye-patch would be in the correct place?

Or there could be another explanation. He could have regenerated the eye and then something happened to that other eye while they were off-strip. Maybe it's not redcloak, it's his twin brother or something. Maybe it's all part of the fake-out :smallwink:

Aharon
2013-05-05, 03:06 AM
That's just cruel. And mean. And, admittedly, a really good explanation for how suddenly Xykon turned up, which seemed kind of fishy.

137beth
2013-05-05, 03:06 AM
Wow...



Also, Mageparadox, why the heck do you keep bringing up Xykon's epic spells? You've managed to convince everyone who gives a crap of your lack of understanding of the epic rules, and made it clear that you consider mechanics which aren't even necessarily used in actual D&D games to be more important to a non-game comic than the stuff the comic is actually about (plot). What are you trying to get at?


When i saw belkar die i thought it was still possible to be real, but then mr. scruffy. I knew it couldn't be. No one harms the scruffinator :)
Mr. Scruffy is going to kill the real Xykon. Only a cat can destroy a phylactery.

Gabe the Bard
2013-05-05, 03:09 AM
The subtle tinting of the panels to a purple hue is a very nice touch. I didn't even notice it until I saw the last two panels.

sam79
2013-05-05, 03:09 AM
Or there could be another explanation. He could have regenerated the eye and then something happened to that other eye while they were off-strip. Maybe it's not redcloak, it's his twin brother or something. Maybe it's all part of the fake-out :smallwink:


Yeah....I suppose....seems a big stretch though, especially given Xykon's specific order about not regenerating his eye. Seems most likely that Team Evil isn't there, surely?

Which is not to say they are not in the pyramid somewhere; they're just probably nt in that corridor right now.

JessmanCA
2013-05-05, 03:10 AM
Actually, 1 problem with my theory: Roy's sword is put away in the last panel. Although, he still could have put it away after he 'killed Xykon' while enchanted.

The Giant
2013-05-05, 03:10 AM
The Voice of Mod: OK, no more discussion of Dispel seeds or epic magic or anything related. It's off-topic and has been done already. Move along.

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 03:11 AM
EDIT: Sorry, started typing up the post without seeing Giant's response. Self-scrubbed.


Maybe it's not redcloak, it's his twin brother or something.

*coughs loudly*

*no, there's just something in my throat*

*really*

SOD Spoilers -
You do know about Right-Eye, yes?

Bedinsis
2013-05-05, 03:11 AM
If they're all experiencing the same illusion, what is Belkar seeing at the present?

B. Dandelion
2013-05-05, 03:12 AM
WOW! That was intense. I actually thought the title was pretty suggestive of it being illusory even before I read the comic ("from within" indeed), but admittedly once I WAS reading it, I was reading as fast as I could while going "holy crap!" so often it became a little hard to track all the off-details. I'm not sure I ever would have caught Redcloak's eyepatch (that was brilliant), although I did on the re-read spot the increasing purple tint and Vaarsuvius' lack of injuries.

ManuelSacha
2013-05-05, 03:14 AM
Anti-climatic as it was... I really thought Belkar was dead.
Anti-climatic as it was... I really believed Xykon was defeated.

You got me, there, Giant.
Heh... V's line about overhearing Roy's plan should have tipped me off.

PS: I blame Haley! :smalltongue:

oppyu
2013-05-05, 03:14 AM
Noticed two things while re-reading;
1: Ha! That title is awesome! One of the best, I think.
2: Holy crap Mr. Scruffy charges at Xykon and dies. I cannot believe I missed that the first time.

JessmanCA
2013-05-05, 03:15 AM
You do know about Right-Eye, yes?

I read it at some point. I don't know how you all remember the story so vividly when these are released once a week when we're lucky (these days). I guess you've read everything more than once. I've read the entire comic once, but it's been over an 8 year span..

Mike Havran
2013-05-05, 03:18 AM
The subtle tinting of the panels to a purple hue is a very nice touch. I didn't even notice it until I saw the last two panels.

Yep. I absolutely loved this little detail.

Excellent strip, Giant. :smallsmile:

I wonder what will happen to the Order now? They are now...eh, even more completely screwed than they were before. Maybe the Illusion will be able to tell they were not going to use the Gate?

Oh, and I'm looking forward to see Nale in the corridor :smallamused:

oppyu
2013-05-05, 03:18 AM
I read it at some point. I don't know how you all remember the story so vividly when these are released once a week when we're lucky (these days). I guess you've read everything more than once. I've read the entire comic once, but it's been over an 8 year span..
Someone corrects you on oots knowledge, and you respond by subtly employing the 'I didn't know that because I actually have a life, unlike you' argument? That's just poor sportsmanship *shakes head in disappointment*

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 03:19 AM
I read it at some point. I don't know how you all remember the story so vividly when these are released once a week when we're lucky (these days). I guess you've read everything more than once. I've read the entire comic once, but it's been over an 8 year span..

Heh. I actually haven't been able to get my poor broke little hands on any of the prequel books yet, but I always read the forum spoilers. Anyway, just wanted to make sure you weren't unaware of the hilarity of your line. XD

Kolero
2013-05-05, 03:20 AM
I don't get what all the fuss about the superb dispelling is about... You're telling me that an illusion of Xykon who tried to use a made-up spell that fizzed and thus we don't know if it works or not, would not have worked if it had succeed? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) It wouldn't have proven anything even if it had succeed on-panel, it was all an illusion anyway...

Fowlor
2013-05-05, 03:20 AM
Whoops! Should really be smarter and read page 3 before I start throwing my two cents in.

Anyways, a fun fake out! And I have to agree with the earlier poster, while this was short enough that things felt off, it was way better than dragging it on appropriately and leaving folks feeling cheated.

You have to feel for Roy, sacrificing so much to stop one maniac and receiving zero recognition from said maniac despite being involved in the major screwing up his plans big time and in person twice now!

JessmanCA
2013-05-05, 03:21 AM
Someone corrects you on oots knowledge, and you respond by subtly employing the 'I didn't know that because I actually have a life, unlike you' argument? That's just poor sportsmanship *shakes head in disappointment*

I was actually hoping for a clarification on the thing they mentioned. I forget. I was admitting that I have a poor memory. And I've been very busy.

oppyu
2013-05-05, 03:22 AM
I was actually hoping for a clarification on the thing they mentioned. I forget. I was admitting that I have a poor memory. And I've been very busy.
Ah. I'm an idiot, and we're moving on with the thread.

...

Isn't that Giant amazing?

shamgar001
2013-05-05, 03:23 AM
I was thinking that Xykon is from a class that's defined as not knowing what they're doing to some extent. It's plausible that in the heat of the moment, he didn't realize that it didn't work.

Then I realized that it doesn't matter what the real Xykon knows. Does Roy know anything reliable about spellcasting. Even if the illusion is a group effort, the most know legible caster there is Elan...

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 03:23 AM
I was actually hoping for a clarification on the thing they mentioned. I forget. I was admitting that I have a poor memory. And I've been very busy.

SOD spoilers:
Right-eye was Redcloak's brother, who was missing his left eye thanks to a paladin attack. Redcloak losing his right eye to a paladin attack was thus the subject of much forum kerfluffle back during that sequence, as Redcloak now sees his brother, who he killed every time he looks in the mirror. No clue if they were twins, though. XD

Ave
2013-05-05, 03:25 AM
Why the runes let V save the game if he wasn't present. Roy's "worst fear" is to be helped out by V? Anyway, some people wrote earlier to watch for the phylactery and the eyepatch, and still, i fell for the illusion :)
Except that killing temporarily disabling Xykon made it unbelievable in the end, hehe. Then I saw the glowing runes, haha. Good one.
This shows they really really need V either way.

the_tick_rules
2013-05-05, 03:25 AM
For a second I was ready to say holy crap!!!! Then I got to last panel, then I was like oh you are a nasty nasty tease GITP.

NullAshton
2013-05-05, 03:26 AM
One can also notice the colors being desaturated slowly as the comic progresses. That's also why it seems odd.

V also no longer has her familiar(who has been a constant companion, yet still forgotten by the party). Scruffy disappears completely without even some ashes after being killed by Xykon, and the previous wounds from the meteor swarm disappeared beforehand. (and a common house cat survived a meteor swarm in the first place) Monster in the Dark is also not present, despite coming along.

Not entirely sure how "skgurtch" can result from impaling a skeleton, considering the 'skeleton' bit. That sounds organy.

And Xykon would probably laugh as he was being killed, considering as how (he thinks) that his phylactery is safe and secure in Tomb of Horrors 2.0. And also likely wouldn't have remembered the advice he gave, or Roy. Aside from "that hilarious guy I watched die on TiVO again and again".

Yay random details. Illusion, so supposed to be off though.

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 03:27 AM
Why the runes let V save the game if he wasn't present. Roy's "worst fear" is to be helped out by V? Anyway, some people wrote earlier to watch for the phylactery and the eyepatch, and still, i fell for the illusion :)
Except that killing temporarily disabling Xykon made it unbelievable in the end, hehe. Then I saw the glowing runes, haha. Good one.
This shows they really really need V either way.

It looks like this illusion may not have been a "worst fear" one, as we speculated earlier, so much as a "greatest fantasy" one. For Roy, Xykon shows up, but they completely trounce him. Sure, Belkar dies, but he knew Belkar was going to die, and was mostly running out the clock for his death, so Belkar dying was either neutral or positive from Roy's POV. Since he's the only one speaking in the last panel, I'm betting that everyone is seeing something different, and this was Roy's fantasy.

Mido
2013-05-05, 03:27 AM
Ok, loved the development so far. I thought those runes were suspicious enough to not have done anything since Roy noticed them and got dismissed so easily. Honestly, I thought they may have been for magic amplification focusing on illusions and figured Elan was gonna be the key in getting the OOTS out of their current predicament. Ah, me and my hair-brained theories.

Bit mean spirited for Roy though. Everything's just in a tragic downward spiral. The first good thing that happens for the day after all the bad and it's all in his head.

The worst thing is, since there has been a slow down in updates lately (not complaining, merely observing. I love this comic enough to have patience) but I'm gonna have to find a way to be more patient since the next update may happen next week around the same time. The suspense is killing me. WHAT IS GONNA HAPPEN NEXT?!? :smalleek:

*falls off edge of seat*

prism6691
2013-05-05, 03:27 AM
Hmmm, what happens now? I'm guessing any one of the forces except maybe Xykon would be affected by the runes. So if V shows up or the L guild they might get caught in it. Unless it will only affect the first people who trigger it or they save against it (if its possible considering its possibly epic). Maybe they have to realize its an illusion?

I'm also curious to the nature of the illusion. It isn't quite "delusions of grandeur" (belkar and scruffy dying) however the technique roy learns works on every attempt which i'm guessing might not happen especially if hes still new at using it.

JessmanCA
2013-05-05, 03:28 AM
I'm an idiot

Heh.

But really. Can someone explain the *spoiler* mentioned above to me? I've forgotten the deal with *spoiler* and don't know how to use *spoilers*

[EDIT] Oh nvm, thanks above. Cool story.

137beth
2013-05-05, 03:29 AM
Holy everloving crap. Giant you brilliant bastard. I'm sorry if I'm cursing more than this forum generally allows, but... hooooooly crap.

Also, the 'there's no way this is an illusion you foolish epileptic tree-huggers' crowd? Suck it. :smalltongue:

Exactly what I was thinking!

ti'esar
2013-05-05, 03:30 AM
I figured it couldn't be real when the MitD didn't show up and Belkar died offpanel to a random AoE spell, but I didn't spot Redcloak's eyepatch being on the wrong panel until it was mentioned here, so nice fakeout there.

I think it's pretty clear that this is Roy's personal illusion, so any speculation on what the rest of the Order is seeing?

Kareasint
2013-05-05, 03:33 AM
Well, V is not there and the four of them are stuck in "hippy mode." The hallway trap probably had a large number of effects set up to blast through spell protections. Girard still has some trump cards to play. I am still waiting to see what misdirections occur next.

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 03:33 AM
I figured it couldn't be real when the MitD didn't show up and Belkar died offpanel to a random AoE spell, but I didn't spot Redcloak's eyepatch being on the wrong panel until it was mentioned here, so nice fakeout there.

I think it's pretty clear that this is Roy's personal illusion, so any speculation on what the rest of the Order is seeing?

How did I even not notice the lack of MitD? He and O-Chul are my favorite characters! *headdesks*

Man, there were so many tells that this was an illusion, yet we were all so focused on the damn eyepatch that basically all of us fell for it when we saw it, at least at first. Which was probably the whole point of ending the last strip with the eyepatch just conveniently out of view. Well played, Rich. Well played.

WindStruck
2013-05-05, 03:33 AM
There are no mistakes, because there are no rules. NONE. No, not even that one.

I just love this quote. :smallbiggrin:

It's a great snippet to take with you into a pointless debate about what may happen in the next few trips.

Flickerdart
2013-05-05, 03:35 AM
My first impression upon reading "Xykon's" last words was that it was a common thing that happens with illusions like this, when the voice of a real person happens to carry through into the fake reality. But given that they're standing there and drooling blankly, it doesn't seem to have any correlation.

Now watch the Linear Guild blunder into the very same trap. Of course, the vampires would be immune, but when the rest are under the spell, and Tarquin can't tell Malak not to go though with his revenge, I wonder what he'll do...

Regarding the characters forgetting what they know, here's another one - they know that Xykon is a lich who doesn't die from a mere whack to the head, and yet they're celebrating their victory like it's some sort of final one. Granted, there's an easy explanation - the illusion prevents them from thinking straight, and lulls them into a state of passive happiness. Roy wants to kill Xykon real bad, and so now Xykon is dead, even if he would normally know otherwise.

Ezekiel
2013-05-05, 03:36 AM
Another great comic Giant!

Chantelune
2013-05-05, 03:37 AM
Eh, I thought for a moment that it might be the real deal, but then Xykon called Roy by its first name on the verge of being destroyed. Just can't see that happen. Well, begging for his unlife as well, given he think his phylactery is safely in the astral plane. :smallbiggrin:

Nice page in any case, now I look forward to the Oots reaction when realizing that both Xykon AND Belkar are still alive. :smalltongue:

Kilo24
2013-05-05, 03:37 AM
SOD spoilers:
Right-eye was Redcloak's brother, who was missing his left eye thanks to a paladin attack. Redcloak losing his right eye to a paladin attack was thus the subject of much forum kerfluffle back during that sequence, as Redcloak now sees his brother, who he killed every time he looks in the mirror. No clue if they were twins, though. XD

They were not twins; it's quite clear in the strips that they're introduced in that Right-Eye is significantly younger than Redcloak.

Dissection
2013-05-05, 03:39 AM
I don't...I can't even...I don't......... Ok.

Kokomo
2013-05-05, 03:39 AM
If they're all experiencing the same illusion, what is Belkar seeing at the present?

The Abyss?

It'd be cute if they were all experiencing their own, separate fantasies. Elan sees Nale and Tarquin walk in and repudiate their lives of evil. Malack brings Durkosferatu in and returns him to life, while his mother walks in from behind them and announces that she and Tarquin are getting back together. Then they adopt Roy and everyone goes bowling. Haley sees something akin to Roy's, except involving the Rogues' Guild and Bozzok, and then her father walks in with an apology for her and Elan, and a huge bag of Draketooth loot. Then she snaps out of it almost immediately. Belkar's could be like Roy's and Haley's, except much, much more violent and extra implausible. And the rest of the party is downplayed, if not absent entirely. Then he gets to have sex, eat a huge sandwich, and kill something, all in bed, at the same time. The trifecta! Mr. Scruffy is completely unaffected, as all cats are already living out their ultimate fantasies.

Johnny Fry
2013-05-05, 03:42 AM
I thought to myself "HE KILLED OFF MY FAVOURITE CHARACTER AND KEPT GOING LIKE IT WAS NO BIG DEAL" you got me! this would have been a good one for april 1st.

FlawedParadigm
2013-05-05, 03:45 AM
First, it's a 6th level Wizard spell. Now, who, of the four characters here, do you think has enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know that the spell is a higher level for clerics using it from the Destruction domain than it is for Vaarsuvius, their teammate, who uses it all the time? (Answer: None of them.)

And second, don't tell me I made a mistake in my own comic. I could not give one good goddamn what the rules say about anything. There are no mistakes, because there are no rules. NONE. No, not even that one. Further, I do not care what you think is a "reasonable" assumption for them to have made. This is the assumption they DID make. Period. End of discussion.

About time. So far as I can tell, that guy has joined for no reason except to get into rules arguments about rules that are only loosely used in the comic. Then wonders why half his threads get locked. Ugh.

tirsales
2013-05-05, 03:46 AM
Hmm... anybody wanting to finish a plot line with a race? It's strangely anti-climatic ...

Waspinator
2013-05-05, 03:46 AM
I don't think it's an illusion. Illusions make you see fake things, but you can still do actions normally. The "standing there blankly" thing makes me think enchantment. Maybe something like this, only arcane instead of psionic? And probably epic level.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm

KoboldRevenge
2013-05-05, 03:47 AM
So Roy's dreams of success include Belkar and Mr. Scruffy dying? Jerk.:smalltongue:

Xhosant
2013-05-05, 03:49 AM
I knew something was off about the colors, and since i obviously have ridiculous amounts of time in my hands, i loaded OOTS 885 and 886 on photoshop and sampled the colors. Specifically, i sampled the wall behind them, whose first appearance is 885. Also, i zoomed in ridiculously much, the wall's color is definitely homogenous.

All through 885, it's color is a precise "181/168/149" on the RGB scale (aka, it contains 181 out of 200 parts red, 168 out of 200 green, and 149 out of 200 blue, with 0 being the opposite color, like green for red, and 200 being the actual color, like red for red).

This exact color stays in 886, up to panel 2. On panel 3, it becomes "181/165/148", on panel 4 "181/167/154" and it stays so up to panel 10. At 11, it becomes "180/166/156", and shifts between these colors up to the 2nd-to-last panel. In the very last panel, though, the sample shifts back to the "real" "181/168/149". All other colors shift accordingly.

Therefore, it is my belief that everything up to panel 2, 886 is perfectly true. The hallucinations kick in after that, perhaps being triggered by the presence of evil/undead Xykon.

Note: That doesn't fit in well with the eyepatch, which demands the entire 886 to be fake :/ Up to Xykon showing up, though, the color theory says yes. I'm reading too far into it right?

Alsadius
2013-05-05, 03:58 AM
This seriously threw me for a loop. I thought the last panel was a hypnosis triggered by the kill, not that the rest was a dream sequence - I'm glad this thread exists, I must say.

shamgar001
2013-05-05, 03:59 AM
I'm reading too far into it right?

I think you are. If the color fade had started right away, it would have been too noticeable too early. Waiting a few panels added to the dramatic effect.

Crod
2013-05-05, 04:00 AM
Holy crap! That was epic

sam79
2013-05-05, 04:00 AM
Note: That doesn't fit in well with the eyepatch, which demands the entire 886 to be fake :/ Up to Xykon showing up, though, the color theory says yes. I'm reading too far into it right?

That is entirely possible ! Interesting analysis, though!

Francis Davey
2013-05-05, 04:00 AM
For some of these rules discussions I do wonder how many contributors have DM'ed many actual D&D games. Illusions are almost never perfect - whether cast by players or on the players - they just approximate reality enough that the victims may not realise and make active attempts to disbelieve or work around the illusion.

The point is it is all in the heat of the moment. The victim doesn't have time to chew things over and realise there are lots of internal inconsistencies.

Ditto here. There's just no mileage in worrying about these things. For example, Xycon is just not going to call Roy "Roy" even if he does remember him (at least not without some more interaction between the two).

It is very like Othello (the play by Shakespeare not the game). If you watch it, everything seems to make sense. If you pick it over (as English Literary critics have done for ages) you find lots of internal inconsistencies. Some things must have gone on for a long time, but other evidence suggests the total time is much shorter. Only on slow re-reading do you notice them.

Of course if it is a wish fulfilment spell rather than a "worst fears" spell (which seems far more likely to me) then there's going to be some strong confirmation bias going on in Roy's mind at least. Great strip.

AngryHobbit
2013-05-05, 04:01 AM
Funny how nobody noticed in #885 that Redcloak's right eye was normal.

Barnacle
2013-05-05, 04:03 AM
My first impression upon reading "Xykon's" last words was that it was a common thing that happens with illusions like this, when the voice of a real person happens to carry through into the fake reality. But given that they're standing there and drooling blankly, it doesn't seem to have any correlation.

That was my first assumption as well, that they were attacking V or some other ally while thinking it was Xykon.

Heksefatter
2013-05-05, 04:03 AM
Extremely well done all round. I was looking for whether Redcloak had an eyepatch, not which eye it was on. Highly dramatic and with the gradually increasing feeling that something is "off" as it should be. The way Belkar dies, Varsuuvius' lack of injuries, the flow of the battle with the Order doing too well from early on, until finally the ultimate tip-off: Xykon calling Roy "Roy."

A favourite strip in my favourite arch so far.

nonamearisto
2013-05-05, 04:04 AM
So Roy's dreams of success include Belkar and Mr. Scruffy dying? Jerk.:smalltongue:

It seems to be a shared illusion. Not quite sure how it works.

SmaugTheYounger
2013-05-05, 04:08 AM
So the OotS managed to walk themselves into a rather devious trap, like "Fantasize killing your most immediat threat while standing still", wich would have worked perfectly for the Draketooths.

Anyway, here is my question:
Will this also work on:
- Nale and Co
- Tarquin or Malack
- the real Xykon
- V
??
And who will walk in next?

sam79
2013-05-05, 04:09 AM
So Roy's dreams of success include Belkar and Mr. Scruffy dying? Jerk.:smalltongue:

Could be that Roy is not a cat person. Could be that, as unlike;y as his victory over Xykon is, it is pretty much impossible to imagine Belkar facing off against Xykon in his current condition and living. In other words, if Belkar survived, Roy and co would disbelief the illusion/charm thing.

Holy_Knight
2013-05-05, 04:10 AM
I wonder if every member of the Order is experiencing a completely different illusion right now? Or can they hear each other and are they integrating it in their own "dream"? I guess we'll figure that out.

I think they're all experiencing the same illusion, which takes bits and pieces from the mind of each of them. If that's true, then Redcloak's eyepatch could be there becaue of Elan. Hearing that Redcloak lost his eye would likely make him jump straight to thoughts of mysterious eyepatches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0502.html), so it might not even occur to him to think that the eye could have been regenerated.

Hopefully they'll be able to figure out something's amiss before too long and break out of it, although I shudder to think of the amount of additional despair Roy will go through when he realizes that no, Xykon isn't dead after all and they're still just as screwed as they were before (if not more so).

EDIT:

That was my first assumption as well, that they were attacking V or some other ally while thinking it was Xykon.
I kind of thought so too, at first, especially with the "Roy, wait!" line. But since they all seem to be just standing there without any of their equipment out, I don't think they actually took any of the actions they dreamed.

Henry the 57th
2013-05-05, 04:10 AM
So, the Order's stuck in an illusion right as the Linear Guild is bearing down on top of them. This isn't looking good. :smalleek:

Mono Vertigo
2013-05-05, 04:15 AM
Didn't get the whole fight was an illusion until it was pointed out. Derp.
... still an epic fight. Illusion's pretty damn good, exactly as snarky as the originals.

Azukar
2013-05-05, 04:18 AM
And second, don't tell me I made a mistake in my own comic. I could not give one good goddamn what the rules say about anything. There are no mistakes, because there are no rules. NONE. No, not even that one. Further, I do not care what you think is a "reasonable" assumption for them to have made. This is the assumption they DID make. Period. End of discussion.

Perfectly said. Can't believe readers are trying to tell the Giant how to run his own story, as if he hasn't proven a hundred times he's more than capable..

BWR
2013-05-05, 04:18 AM
Is it an illusion or an enchantment?
The swirly eyes tend to indicate enchantment effects, and there is no actual illusion there to behold - it's all in their minds.

Selphares
2013-05-05, 04:21 AM
On a sidenote I amybe wrong, but consideirng how fishy and vague a certain oracle is, could it also eman that this was already the horrible death that Belkar died?

Ok most likely not but considering a certain oracle it would fit. First enarly drained by death and than randomly killed by a spell off panel, without doing anything epic. At least from a Belkar view it would be most horrible. :)

Princess Tracy
2013-05-05, 04:21 AM
Most likely they're all experiencing individual fantasies. I get the feeling the illusion wouldn't hold if you died in the illusion.

DarthMauler64
2013-05-05, 04:32 AM
I didn't notice that eyepatch was on the wrong eye. The moment I saw it I was totally convinced everything was real. At least until Xykon "died".

...Also is it bad that I was more concerned that Mr. Scruffy died than Belkar?

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 04:33 AM
They were not twins; it's quite clear in the strips that they're introduced in that Right-Eye is significantly younger than Redcloak.

Gotcha! Thanks. I haven't actually read the book yet, just seen the spoilers here.


The Abyss?

It'd be cute if they were all experiencing their own, separate fantasies. Elan sees Nale and Tarquin walk in and repudiate their lives of evil. Malack brings Durkosferatu in and returns him to life, while his mother walks in from behind them and announces that she and Tarquin are getting back together. Then they adopt Roy and everyone goes bowling. Haley sees something akin to Roy's, except involving the Rogues' Guild and Bozzok, and then her father walks in with an apology for her and Elan, and a huge bag of Draketooth loot. Then she snaps out of it almost immediately. Belkar's could be like Roy's and Haley's, except much, much more violent and extra implausible. And the rest of the party is downplayed, if not absent entirely. Then he gets to have sex, eat a huge sandwich, and kill something, all in bed, at the same time. The trifecta! Mr. Scruffy is completely unaffected, as all cats are already living out their ultimate fantasies.

Ha! Headcanon accepted. And on that note-


Most likely they're all experiencing individual fantasies. I get the feeling the illusion wouldn't hold if you died in the illusion.

Agreed. Plus, if this is a "greatest fantasy" type illusion, adding more people would make it even harder to maintain - Elan's contributions, for example, might raise red flags for Haley, who has a much firmer grasp on the facts and what is and isn't plausible, etc. Much safer to just lock everyone in their own perfect fantasy, to be picked off later.

sam79
2013-05-05, 04:34 AM
...Also is it bad that I was more concerned that Mr. Scruffy died than Belkar?

No, it is in fact good!

ZerglingOne
2013-05-05, 04:35 AM
Hmm, I'm afraid that this scenario wouldn't be possible in any case. Redcloak has shown the ability to cast Disintegrate in the past.

This would render Forcecage useless against him.

davidbofinger
2013-05-05, 04:35 AM
If they're all experiencing the same illusion, what is Belkar seeing at the present?

And if Belkar were experiencing chaotic-evil afterlife he probably wouldn't be smiling. (Is that right? We haven't seen the evil afterlife from the ordinary person side.) So my guess is they aren't having the same experience. Roy is the only one talking, after all. And Elan is drooling so he may be seeing attractive ladies. Maybe everyone is getting their heart's desire.


Looks like all the people who suspected the runes were casting an illusion and that Xykon wasn't actually there were in fact correct.

In fact they weren't correct, but only because they didn't go far enough. Or did someone suggest a Matrix-style hallucination? I sure didn't think of it.


until he regenerates at his phylactery

It is perhaps odd Roy isn't talking about that. I mean, he's killed Xykon before. On the other hand killing Xykon in any sense is an impressive achievement.

Interesting to see how they get out of this. My guess: V will see they are non compos mentis, not enter the room, and cast Busby's Transporting Hand to pull them out.

OracleofWuffing
2013-05-05, 04:38 AM
So, the Order's stuck in an illusion right as the Linear Guild is bearing down on top of them. This isn't looking good. :smalleek:
Actually, this might be the safest place for the Order of the Stick. Because, when the Linear Guild comes in, they'll be subjected to the illusion. Then people will wonder what happened to Tarquin when he doesn't come back, so they'll send teams to investigate, and they'll be subjected to the illusion. Then People will wonder what happened to an entire country, so they'll investigate and be subjected to the illusion. And when Xykon comes down for reals, he'll be subjected to the illusion, and so on until we have world peace forever.
Yes, I'm aware that Liches are immune to Mind-Affecting which this appears to be, and thus really doesn't apply to this situation, but dang it, let me have some fun here.

Kokomo
2013-05-05, 04:39 AM
I'm not sure if anybody has already taken note of this, but for anyone curious as to when, precisely, the illusion activated, their positioning in the final panel here matches what they were walking past in panels #4 and #5 from #855. So, in other words, it looks like Roy was asking Haley about the runes at the exact moment they were taking effect.

davidbofinger
2013-05-05, 04:39 AM
could it also mean that this was already the horrible death that Belkar died?

Sure could. If he's now stopped breathing, that is.

warmachine
2013-05-05, 04:41 AM
I predicted Roy wouldn't use the trick he learnt from his grandfather because repeated use of a single tactic would be a boring fight but Rich managed to pull it off. This leaves the question of what the others were doing. Or rather, what Roy thought the others were doing.

Looks like we need a hero whose class grants string Will saves and whose race grants +2 saves against enchantment.

Leirus
2013-05-05, 04:43 AM
Awesome. We were expecting Redcloack's eyepatch would be the telltale sign, but it was actually Vaarsovius, fully healed and without Blackwing, what definetly tells us that this is an illusion done with the info in the Order heads.

So I actually checked the eyepatch and thought: This is real!. Of course I did not notice at first it was in the wrong eye.

This is something I always love in fiction. When a writer gives you all the elements to know something in advance (in this case the runes and the fact that Giraud was an illusionist) but still tells the story in a way that you kind of forget them in the heat of the action.

Bravo!

Lvl45DM!
2013-05-05, 04:47 AM
I love this strip to death. I mean damn this is a tight piece of art and storytelling. The little mistakes in the illusion that are unnoticeable at first the purpling hue that gives the eerie sense of something being wrong, the fact that the fight made sense as you read it but then you read it again and you're all wait wha?! It was awesome!
I particularly enjoy Roy being :smallfurious: face while xykon is :xykon: and then Roy smirks as Xykon gets scared. The double auras on particularly badass swings of that blade, how Roy takes on Xykon singlehanded the others just bystanders really.
I am now going to list things that make it clear it was an illusion in hindsight: Belkar and Hayley SHOULD have dodged that Meteor Swarm but didnt.
Purpling colour, obviously
V's lack of wounds
Scruffy surviving a Meteor Swarm!
Redcloak doing nothing but healing.
No Blackwing!
No MitD (Cos Roy never saw it!)
Xykon uses spells straight from that list that O-Chul gave Roy.
Redcloak seems way more submissive "Lord Xykon" and "sir" all the way.
EDIT: THE EYEPATCH AND PHYLACTERY! I mean OBVIOUSLY! I love you Giant
Just oh man...thats awesome

Silverionmox
2013-05-05, 04:49 AM
First, it's a 6th level Wizard spell. Now, who, of the four characters here, do you think has enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know that the spell is a higher level for clerics using it from the Destruction domain than it is for Vaarsuvius, their teammate, who uses it all the time? (Answer: None of them.)

And second, don't tell me I made a mistake in my own comic. I could not give one good goddamn what the rules say about anything. There are no mistakes, because there are no rules. NONE. No, not even that one. Further, I do not care what you think is a "reasonable" assumption for them to have made. This is the assumption they DID make. Period. End of discussion.
Burn, burn, burn the metagaming fools :)

Kaurne
2013-05-05, 04:51 AM
Giant, can I just say you are unbelievably awesome. As in, you're one of the best storytellers whose works I've ever had the privelege to read.

On the first read throughs, this seems believable. It would be a great (and darkly humorous) twist is Belkar dies off-panel in the middle of a fight, compared to the entire page that Durkon's death got. The fight was well done, and for the first page believable in the combat.

By the second page, it was still believable, but less so. Still, right up until Xykon saying 'Roy', it was plausible; I thought that perhaps adding the dynamic of Xykon finding out Redclaok had switched his phylactery would be another plot complication.

And then I see the final panel. And suddenly it seems so obvious this is a fake.

There's the hues, the eyepatch on the wrong side, the wrong holy symbol, the lack of MitD, the lack of Vaarsuvius's wounds, the lack of Blackwing, the idea Mr. Scruffy survived a Meteor Swarm, Redcloak's different voice (more like how he was in the Dungeon of Dorukan), Xykon recognising him, Xykon even knowing his name, Roy forgetting he's a lich and can regenerate from his phylactery, Redcloak not really attacking offensively and Vaarsuvius talking about zir 'superior elven hearing'.[1]

That's a thirteen things off with the comic, and there are probably more. A dozen little hints that the fight wasn't real. There are some storytellers who would have difficulty making two different hints a fight wasn't real without them being painfully obvious, and you made more than dozen subtle ones (possibly quite a few more, if I've missed some). That's magnificent.

The general plot also makes sense from Roy's perspective. Xykon recognises him and acknowledges him as an equal, because that's what Roy wants; he's devoted himself so much to destroying Xykon he can't bear it that Xykon just doesn't care about him, because that invalidates him. Redcloak doesn't do much fighting, because Roy still sees Xykon as the big threat to the world. Belkar dies, because Roy is expecting it. Elan doesn't do much in the fight, because Roy doesn't see Elan as useful in fights. Vaarsuvius provides support and tactical options, but it's actually Roy who does all the damage to Xykon, because he still sees it as his fight. His feat works perfectly, because, subconciously, he thinks it'll work perfectly, since he's never tried it on an actual spellcaster. Just when things are going terribly, Vaarsuvius arrives; Roy is sure his luck will hold in a fight, because he's the protagonist.

It's kind of heartbreaking actually; you just keep piling and piling all this misfortune on Roy. I wouldn't be surprised if, at the end of this arc with the gate (presumably) being destroyed (to maintain dramatic tension, if nothing else), he breaks utterly. It'd be interesting for him to be forced to grow as a character from this, to deal with losing Durkon and his own fallibility; presumably you'll be following the pattern of alternating books about gates, so next book won't feature a gate at the end, but will be more (presumably) about dealing with Durkula and Roy getting over this arc. Then, with all the character growth done, Roy can be ready to stop Xykon once and for all.

It'll be a long, hard road there, though, and I doubt his final victory over Xykon will be this easy, or feature only the death of the one team member he doesn't like and that person's cat. I'd be more than willing to bet that at least one of the paladins dies, as does either Durkon (for good) or Vaarsuvius. In fact, it might be more fitting for all the paladins to die, but neither of those two. That would both remove the last of the previous iteration of defenders of the Gates and leave 5 team members to guard the gates again. But that's a discussion for another time.

Back to my original point though, Giant; thank you. Thank you for producing one of the best stories I've ever read and distributing it for free. Thank you for making intriguing plots, compelling characters and deep subtle meanings.

But most of all, thank you for comics like this one, where so much happens in such a few panels, with action and comedy and drama and hope and despair all mixed up together. Thanks.

Okay, gushing over. :smalltongue:

[1]: While Vaarsuvius used to talk like this, I doubt ze would anymore, and that Roy is simply projecting the Vaarsuvius he is used to 'full of zir own superiority' rather than Vaarsuvius as ze currently is.

oppyu
2013-05-05, 04:51 AM
I mean damn this is a tight piece of art...
Heh. Oh my God Becky, look at her art.

davidbofinger
2013-05-05, 04:51 AM
Mr. Scruffy charges at Xykon and dies.

More than that: Mr. Scruffy goes to Belkar for a moment, realises he's dead and tries to avenge him. Two conclusions:

Roy is aware of the closeness of Belkar and Mr. Scruffy's relationship.
The lack of intestines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) is one of a lich's key tactical advantages.

Xefas
2013-05-05, 04:52 AM
Wait, but Roy's a fighter. And he just did something other than move 20ft and attack.

If the Tome of Battle threads are to be believed, this webcomic has somehow transcended the realm of its medium and become an anime.

sparky9042
2013-05-05, 05:01 AM
Absolutely love Elan drooling in the last panel under the illusion/enchantment's effects.

Which also leads me to jump in with the group that thinks that this might be Roy's vision and Roy's alone we're seeing. The expressions on the rest of the Order's faces (two dazed frowns and a gaping mouth with drool coming out) don't quite line up with what one might expect if they just witnessed Xykon being defeated (something more like Roy's dazed smile).

Seriously though, having finished the requisite insane overspeculation, I loved this update.

Reks
2013-05-05, 05:02 AM
Oh my god :D that's the first comic that I was completely surprised xD I kept reading and like I was so into it xD I couldn't wait to see what happened next!

Hmm just a thought, do you think that V is gonna find the order like that? I think that's the next comic... Maybe?

Lvl45DM!
2013-05-05, 05:02 AM
Heh. Oh my God Becky, look at her art.

You know I didn't even see that. I was just trying to keep up with those crazy kids and their Pokey-Mans. Though that will now be my new way of complimenting art

Killer Angel
2013-05-05, 05:03 AM
So, it was an illusion / mental effect.
I wonder how long it will last...

Nenec
2013-05-05, 05:04 AM
Oh my, this was a greaaaat one. I've read it all through thinking "ok this all is so weird, so fast and so easy..." but not once I thought about an illusion, even f looking back there are all the hints for it. Xykon remembering Roy, Mr Scruffy dying (I didn't even notice that, I was focused on V in that panel -.-)...and Belkar's death was lame but it was almost fitting.

I really think everybody's experiencing a different story. After all this was Roy's most important wish in life, defeating Xykon, being aknowledged, having Belkar dead, no more jokes going on and everybody congratulating him...and V reuntiing to the team.
I somehow think Elan's illusion could be his father turning good and them living as a family for ever and ever, and Roy giving him respect and affection in all this. Obviously Haley by his side is included. Belkar's one at this point might as well be saving Durkon. For Haley I have no idea, I would have said saving her father before but now that one is off too so...
If Rich makes everyone experience this same story though, I think I'll be sad :(
And Clearly V is still out of range from the runes, even if hir was going towards the team.

jpreem
2013-05-05, 05:04 AM
So move to threat range and ready action to hit when Xykon casts? WOuldn't it be thwarted by Xykon taking a 5ft step away - or has the Roy some reach out of somewhere?

Lvl45DM!
2013-05-05, 05:08 AM
So move to threat range and ready action to hit when Xykon casts? WOuldn't it be thwarted by Xykon taking a 5ft step away - or has the Roy some reach out of somewhere?

Nah its that feat he got from his Granpa

Domino Quartz
2013-05-05, 05:10 AM
Funny how nobody noticed in #885 that Redcloak's right eye was normal.

That's because you can't see either of his eyes in that comic.

Pory
2013-05-05, 05:11 AM
It seems Roy doesn't have a big plan for Redcloak in mind :smalltongue:. In the illusion, Redcloak is just standing there healing/harming occasionally, calling Xykon "Lord Xykon" yet and is disabled with some arrows and one spell. If the illusion continues, they will kill him in one round or two and they will destroy his amulet because it's possible they still think it's the philactery. I suppose O-chul told them the philactery it's really hard to destroy though.

warmachine
2013-05-05, 05:14 AM
I'm going with the hypothesis this is Roy's hallucination because it seems to be from his perspective. This means Roy thinks Elan is capable of casting useful support spells. Roy thinks Elan is a useful backup in the absence of Durkon.

oppyu
2013-05-05, 05:16 AM
You know I didn't even see that. I was just trying to keep up with those crazy kids and their Pokey-Mans. Though that will now be my new way of complimenting art
Man, we're so far past craziness and Pokey-Mans. Now it's all about irony and sexually transmitted infections.

Horizon
2013-05-05, 05:16 AM
So, question about Roy's fighting style here. Where'd he get that? I feel like he learned it from his grandfather in Heaven, but they never actually had the chance to practice together with the family sword.

Ebon_Drake
2013-05-05, 05:21 AM
I love this strip to death. I mean damn this is a tight piece of art and storytelling. The little mistakes in the illusion that are unnoticeable at first the purpling hue that gives the eerie sense of something being wrong, the fact that the fight made sense as you read it but then you read it again and you're all wait wha?! It was awesome!

QFT. It was awesome on the first reading, but all the little touches made it even more awesome on the second.

Everfreefire
2013-05-05, 05:21 AM
Honest question.

Why do people keep assuming Tarquin would be caught in this? All signs point to him *not* being with Nale, Z, Malack, and Durkon. He said as much in panel 4. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html)

I mean, maybe after he finishes...Whatever he is doing, but at that point I think he'd be ready because he'd know what had happened just by looking.

elros
2013-05-05, 05:32 AM
Horizon wrote:
So, question about Roy's fighting style here. Where'd he get that? I feel like he learned it from his grandfather in Heaven, but they never actually had the chance to practice together with the family sword.
Roy learned about the move from his grandfather when he was in the afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) and then he remembered something about it when he was resurrected (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html).

As for this strip, WOW! I was completely taken in. I can't believe how deep I fell for it. Just amazing!
This trip just keeps getting better and better!

Mojique
2013-05-05, 05:33 AM
How did Belkar come back from the dead?

Maybe this fight was an illusion?

Nenec
2013-05-05, 05:42 AM
You know, the purple hue...I didn't notice it first time and I STILL ca't see it. If I compare Roy's colour between first and last panel I can see a slight difference, but only cause told, and I sure can't see a gradient going on. Is my screen so bad?:/

Horizon
2013-05-05, 05:45 AM
Roy learned about the move from his grandfather when he was in the afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) and then he remembered something about it when he was resurrected (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html).

I'd forgotten about that second strip. Thanks for the link!

ratfox
2013-05-05, 05:47 AM
Why do people keep assuming Tarquin would be caught in this? All signs point to him *not* being with Nale, Z, Malack, and Durkon. He said as much in panel 4. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html)


Good catch, hadn't noticed that.

I also noticed just now Nale mentioning that his current team consists of four spellcasters (and two fiends), while the OTS has no spellcasters left.I'm still thinking that this cannot be a coincidence.

Horizon
2013-05-05, 05:48 AM
Those glowing runes are quite pretty. Very calligraphic. I wonder, did the Giant create those from scratch, or are they part of a font I can find somewhere?

King of Nowhere
2013-05-05, 05:53 AM
I almost screamed when mr Scruffy died. I'm glad he's still with us. If this illusion is roy's wish, then he's a mean, mean person :)

Steward
2013-05-05, 05:54 AM
Ha, only in Roy's fantasies will Xykon ever remember his name.

Everfreefire
2013-05-05, 05:58 AM
You know, the purple hue...I didn't notice it first time and I STILL ca't see it. If I compare Roy's colour between first and last panel I can see a slight difference, but only cause told, and I sure can't see a gradient going on. Is my screen so bad?:/

Honestly, until looking at the forums, I assumed the purple hue was due to the Forcecage, because to me, that was when the color really started changing.

I still don't see it changing earlier that that, to be fair.

Also, rereading this, how did I not noticed V didn't have any wounds? He should still be hurt. More completely missing the obvious.

Flame of Anor
2013-05-05, 05:59 AM
Crud, you really fooled me that time. Here's hoping Vaarsuvius can save the day.

Also, public service announcement: something which does not have a climax is anti-climactic. Someone who hates the weather, on the other hand, might be anti-climatic.

So now you know.

Obscure Blade
2013-05-05, 06:00 AM
Those glowing runes are quite pretty. Very calligraphic. I wonder, did the Giant create those from scratch, or are they part of a font I can find somewhere?I thought I recalled that being talked about in the last comic thread...checking back, Roland Itiative posted about the rune's font:


Just to put a final nail to the "what does the runes say?" coffin, Rich used the Miskatonic font you can find in this site:

http://www.blambot.com/fonts_symbol.shtml

Indeed, the secret message is that there is no secret message.

Also of note, the Dark Arts font on the same site was used previously (on the magic circle when V got the Soul Splice, for example), so I wouldn't rule out some of the other ones showing up sooner or later (maybe the dwarven alphabet one when Durkon goes back home/the Order goes to Kraagor's Gate).

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 06:02 AM
Those glowing runes are quite pretty. Very calligraphic. I wonder, did the Giant create those from scratch, or are they part of a font I can find somewhere?

They're part of a font. http://www.blambot.com/fonts_symbol.shtml

When translated, they read

nosecretmessage

EDIT: Agh! Ninja'd!

Hogwarts9876
2013-05-05, 06:02 AM
Also, public service announcement: something which does not have a climax is anti-climactic. Someone who hates the weather, on the other hand, might be anti-climatic.

So now you know.

That's awesome. Can I sig that?

Doctor Foreman
2013-05-05, 06:05 AM
So I guess their only chance is V having a high enough will save to resist the runes and snap them out of it?

Domino Quartz
2013-05-05, 06:11 AM
So I guess their only chance is V having a high enough will save to resist the runes and snap them out of it?

V isn't actually there. V's only there in the illusion. Everything that happened in comic 886 was an illusion (or something), presumably in Roy's mind seeing as how it makes him the hero. In reality, V's still underground figuring out where to go.

RMS Oceanic
2013-05-05, 06:12 AM
Well the name "Wrong-Eye" was especially appropriate this time. :smalltongue:

This would be a good time for Vaarsuvius to really rescue them. I would also approve of Nale falling into the same trap.

Nenec
2013-05-05, 06:17 AM
V isn't actually there. V's only there in the illusion. Everything that happened in comic 886 was an illusion (or something), presumably in Roy's mind seeing as how it makes him the hero. In reality, V's still underground figuring out where to go.
Indeed, but we figure V would reach them at some point, hopefully before the others do, and at that point will V resist runes and wake them up?

King of Nowhere
2013-05-05, 06:22 AM
And by the way, that is what could happe if rich got tired of writing oots and wanted to wrap everything to a fast conclusion.

Nenec
2013-05-05, 06:23 AM
And by the way, that is what could happe if rich got tired of writing oots and wanted to wrap everything to a fast conclusion.

That would be a sad day!

RMS Oceanic
2013-05-05, 06:25 AM
Also while I was suckered into thinking this was real I thought it was a master stroke to have Belkar killed off with no ceremony, like a black joke at all the speculation. I begun to speculate possible Vampire related resurrection before I read the second page.

AngryHobbit
2013-05-05, 06:26 AM
That's because you can't see either of his eyes in that comic.
Yeah, but the string from the eyepatch on his ear would be visible.

Lazers etcetera
2013-05-05, 06:28 AM
I'm not sure if anybody has already taken note of this, but for anyone curious as to when, precisely, the illusion activated, their positioning in the final panel here matches what they were walking past in panels #4 and #5 from #855. So, in other words, it looks like Roy was asking Haley about the runes at the exact moment they were taking effect.

Absolutely correct, well spotted.

Burner28
2013-05-05, 06:30 AM
To echo everyone else, great use of subtle clues which indicated that the event was fake! Great strip!

By the way, in which comic strip was Roy told that Redcloack lost his eye?

Sakgeres
2013-05-05, 06:30 AM
All through 885, it's color is a precise "181/168/149" on the RGB scale (aka, it contains 181 out of 200 parts red, 168 out of 200 green, and 149 out of 200 blue, with 0 being the opposite color, like green for red, and 200 being the actual color, like red for red).

This exact color stays in 886, up to panel 2. On panel 3, it becomes "181/165/148", on panel 4 "181/167/154" and it stays so up to panel 10. At 11, it becomes "180/166/156", and shifts between these colors up to the 2nd-to-last panel. In the very last panel, though, the sample shifts back to the "real" "181/168/149". All other colors shift accordingly.

Therefore, it is my belief that everything up to panel 2, 886 is perfectly true. The hallucinations kick in after that, perhaps being triggered by the presence of evil/undead Xykon.

Note: That doesn't fit in well with the eyepatch, which demands the entire 886 to be fake :/ Up to Xykon showing up, though, the color theory says yes. I'm reading too far into it right?

The changing is colour is probably Giant's way of zooming out from Roy's imagination to the real world. The entire panel 885 could be fake too.

Also a sidenote it is more of an enchantment than an illusion. An illusion is something like what Elan creates that everybody can see, and yet the perception is fake. In this case there is no perception, only imagination all happening within each of their heads. :smallbiggrin:

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-05, 06:36 AM
So we know what Roy's seeing, Elan is probably having something goofy like kissing Haley in a field of sunflowers and rainbows surrounded by puppies, Haley is probably going to start writhing and moaning and then end up with soaked undies if she doesn't snap out in time, and Belkar... I'm not sure.

The Pilgrim
2013-05-05, 06:36 AM
As I said when "spiked helmet" was revealed as Elan's Father:

The Giant never fails to deliver, even when the plot turn is fully expected. There are times when you have to play it straight, and Mr Burlew manages to cop with it.

As an interesting note, everything was perfect for Roy in his illusory fight. Grandpa's anticaster feat worked perfect and Belkar was killed. Too convenient. :smallbiggrin:

shadowpriest
2013-05-05, 06:41 AM
On one hand, I'd like to see another three strips about what the other (remaining) Stick members are imagining. On the other hand, since we now know these visions are illusion-generated, there couldn't be climaxes or twists.

Unless... unless The Giant continues with a strip we THINK is illusion-based, but turns out to be the harsh reality.

Overthinking? Maybe :smallredface: in any case, my respect for The Giant's work.

Doorhandle
2013-05-05, 06:42 AM
....15 internets will be offered if the linier guild is also trapped by the illusion.

Mauve Shirt
2013-05-05, 06:43 AM
Too easy. If it's an illusion, I wonder if Belkar's really dead. Probably.

Jeivar
2013-05-05, 06:43 AM
I was going to ask if Roy just beheaded Vaarsuvius, then I realized the sword in still on his back in the last panel.

Shale
2013-05-05, 06:44 AM
Seeing as he's standing there with swirly eyes, I'm going with "no."

Sakgeres
2013-05-05, 06:49 AM
Any debates on the nature of the enchantment? Definitely not a 'greatest fear' one. At first I thought 'greatest fantasy' couldnt be true if Xykon was there but then maybe the enchantment must agree partly with reality, like Roy's fear and expectation of Xykon being there. So no one would suddenly teleport to a flowery garden unless in their mind can comprehend such a possibility.

Belkar<3
2013-05-05, 06:49 AM
Thank you Giant! And nice plot detail as well.

dnzrx
2013-05-05, 06:50 AM
Question:

To resist Illusion spells of all kinds, you need to have good will-save (or in this case, even better will-saves), right?

If so, then it is a good call back to the fact that none of the Order in its present form have extraordinary to fight back an Illusion spell of this caliber.

Also, based on what we see here, who can successfully resist the illusions from both sides of the conflict?

Ninja Dragon
2013-05-05, 06:55 AM
Notice how Redcloak is acting really loyaly and is not making any snarky remarks about Xykon's fighting style, like he usually does.

That's because Roy thinks he is only a henchman.

Stabbey
2013-05-05, 06:56 AM
Fantastic comic. Lots of little clues were given, but it's amazing that most people - including me - didn't pick up on the huge obvious ones.

Tannhaeuser
2013-05-05, 07:03 AM
Are liches immune to illusions? When Xykon arrives, how much would all of these Draketooth illusions affect him? Help me out; I haven’t played since First Edition.

Defiant
2013-05-05, 07:05 AM
Can't believe I fell for that. I actually jumped for joy at V's forcecage.

Morgan Wick
2013-05-05, 07:06 AM
If Girard had an illusion that anticipated that the OOTS was there to stop someone else from taking the gate, it makes you wonder what side he was really on...

I wonder what Belkar thinks is going on right now... also, since we've now seen the anti-Xykon trick Horace taught Roy, I have a feeling the OOTS (except maybe V) and Xykon won't directly face each other at all here, maybe not for the rest of the comic.
Perhaps they don't even wake up until the whole pyramid is destroyed, possibly for reasons relating to the IFCC calling in their favor?

Everfreefire
2013-05-05, 07:10 AM
If Girard had an illusion that anticipated that the OOTS was there to stop someone else from taking the gate, it makes you wonder what side he was really on...

Fairly certain it wasn't aimed at the OotS, just aimed at anyone who walked down that hallway.

Scizor
2013-05-05, 07:12 AM
There's two different schools that we are talking about: enchantment and Illusion. This effect is probably enchantment, which is mind-affecting charms or hallucinations and are generally only inside someones head. Illusions, on the other hand, can be seen by everyone, but if someone has a high enough will save, they will disbelive the illusion when they interact with it. thus, an enchantment effect makes you believe that the floor is just a floor and not a bottomless pit, while an illusion makes the bottomless pit look like a normal floor.
Since this is all Roy's imagination, we can conclude that this is an enchantment effect, NOT an illusion. Thus, if you are going to talk about it, say enchantment or something similar, not illusion.

Sorry for the rant at the end.
Scizor

Mauve Shirt
2013-05-05, 07:13 AM
Seeing as he's standing there with swirly eyes, I'm going with "no."

Totally didn't think about that. I'm too cool for reading comprehension! :smallcool: Or I'm too groggy. Now I even notice that V's not back either.

If it's greatest desire I wonder what the rest of them are seeing. Haley's too character developed to be seeing a pile of gold.

Olinser
2013-05-05, 07:17 AM
You just had to kill the Scruffinator in the dream/illusion didn't you :smallfrown:

Saphir
2013-05-05, 07:17 AM
Guess it's typical that my first ever post here will be a grammar nazi one, but..

Isn't "didn't used to" incorrect English? My grammar book thinks so. Although one could consider it a hint that Roy, too, considers sorcerers less-than-educated.


Aaaaanyway, great comic as usual. By this point, the Order is already in a bad enough situation that effectively being in a coma doesn't make it much worse :P

Morgan Wick
2013-05-05, 07:18 AM
Fairly certain it wasn't aimed at the OotS, just aimed at anyone who walked down that hallway.

Okay, but that's not the important part, just that the illusion was able to anticipate that whoever was there was there to stop some sort of villain, as opposed to going after the gate themselves.

Mantine
2013-05-05, 07:20 AM
Perfectly said. Can't believe readers are trying to tell the Giant how to run his own story, as if he hasn't proven a hundred times he's more than capable..

Maybe because they didn't? :smallconfused:


1) I went back and checked. Obviously it's the Giant's comic, and he can write whatever he wants.

Scizor
2013-05-05, 07:20 AM
Okay, but that's not the important part, just that the illusion was able to anticipate that whoever was there was there to stop some sort of villain, as opposed to going after the gate themselves.

Again, this is an enchantment, not an illusion. (At least, it's more probable that it is an enchantment). This means the spell can be vague, as in, "Everyone who doesn't save are trapped in a cataconic state while living in a world conjured up by their imagination."
So the Draketooths (yes, it's a personal name, so it's not Draketeeth.. at least, that's what I've learned) don't have to anticipate what will happen, the spell and the targets' imagination will supply the effect for them.

oppyu
2013-05-05, 07:22 AM
Guess it's typical that my first ever post here will be a grammar nazi one, but..

Isn't "didn't used to" incorrect English? My grammar book thinks so. Although one could consider it a hint that Roy, too, considers sorcerers less-than-educated.


Aaaaanyway, great comic as usual. By this point, the Order is already in a bad enough situation that effectively being in a coma doesn't make it much worse :P
1: Sir or Madam, your first post here was a minor nitpick regarding an utterly inconsequential matter. You're going to fit in very well here :smallcool:
2: It may not be sorcerer-ism, but the fact that Roy knows Xykon, and knows that Xykon probably doesn't spend a lot of time wondering about syntax and all that jazz.

Ninja Dragon
2013-05-05, 07:26 AM
When Belkar died, the first thing I thought was "Oh no, it's going to be a total party kill, or the Giant would have made his death more dramatic".

Nah, just an illusion. Burlew, you devious troll.

WoLong
2013-05-05, 07:27 AM
Isn't "didn't used to" incorrect English? My grammar book thinks so. Although one could consider it a hint that Roy, too, considers sorcerers less-than-educated.


It's typical of Xykon's casual manner of speech.

Tannhaeuser
2013-05-05, 07:28 AM
Guess it’s typical that my first ever post here will be a grammar nazi one, but..

Isn’t “didn’t used to” incorrect English? My grammar book thinks so. Although one could consider it a hint that Roy, too, considers sorcerers less-than-educated.


Strictly speaking, “didn’t use to” (Oscar Wilde says “usen’t to” in The Importance of Being Earnest, and he was an Oxonian) is the correct form, but I doubt Xykon is trying to qualify for the Uptight English Teacher prestige class.

Gift Jeraff
2013-05-05, 07:31 AM
Can't believe I didn't notice Wrong-Eye's wrong eyepatch and holy symbol at first. Scruffy dying was when I figured it was an illusion. Seemed like too many major character deaths within a short timeframe. :smalltongue:

Mage Paradox
2013-05-05, 07:34 AM
Maybe because they didn't? :smallconfused:

Shh, don't go pointing stuff like that out.

EDIT- I better add a smiley face, in case a mod gives me another infraction for being rude. Just so the tongue in cheek sarcasm is very clear.

:smallwink:

thatSeniorGuy
2013-05-05, 07:35 AM
Just noticed the smiley for the thread. Giant, I thought you were supposed to be the Giant in the playground, not the troll!

Apricot
2013-05-05, 07:38 AM
Eh, the switching eyes thing is clever, but I don't entirely agree with the Giant's methods there. Seems a little iffy. But it's more a stylistic thing than anything, and I get why he did it, so I won't complain.

Although I do find it a little funny that V saved them in the dream, considering that it will probably be the one to save them from the dream too. And if Roy's happy dream involved Belkar dying, what did Belkar's happy dream involve?

ReaderAt2046
2013-05-05, 07:38 AM
And if Belkar were experiencing chaotic-evil afterlife he probably wouldn't be smiling. (Is that right? We haven't seen the evil afterlife from the ordinary person side.) So my guess is they aren't having the same experience. Roy is the only one talking, after all. And Elan is drooling so he may be seeing attractive ladies. Maybe everyone is getting their heart's desire.

Maybe Elan is seeing Haley in a bunny costume?

B. Dandelion
2013-05-05, 07:40 AM
Again, this is an enchantment, not an illusion. (At least, it's more probable that it is an enchantment). This means the spell can be vague, as in, "Everyone who doesn't save are trapped in a cataconic state while living in a world conjured up by their imagination."
So the Draketooths (yes, it's a personal name, so it's not Draketeeth.. at least, that's what I've learned) don't have to anticipate what will happen, the spell and the targets' imagination will supply the effect for them.

It's like the Lotus Eater (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine) in spell form.

Scizor
2013-05-05, 07:44 AM
It's like the Lotus Eater (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine) in spell form.

Ah yes, forgot there was a trope for that ;)

Fangelix
2013-05-05, 07:44 AM
This scene actually reminds me of a test that Lolth used in the series "The War of the Spider Queen".

So here's my take on what might happen during the following strips. I'm probably wrong, but why not take a shot at it? :smallbiggrin:

What are the odds that this "trap" is actually a test to see who is worthy amongst the party to receive a blessing, or access, or power over the gates, or some boon like that.

My guess would be that each member of the OOTS is going to experience an enchanted scenario that demonstrates that their motivation doesn't necessarily match the specific criteria to receive that boon. Until, that is, we at last get to Belkar, who may have had a change of heart since the Durkula incident, and who's greatest fantasy might be to see his old companion returned to the way he was.

Worst case scenario... it's a test and only Elan passes.

Just a thought :smallsmile:

On a rather long side note....

With the level of power inherent to the gates, it wouldn't surprise me if this enchantment exceeds the normal conventional boundaries and thus affects even the undead like Malak. There are many spells that affect undead, control undead or even change what they sense (command undead, undead invisibility, etc), so there's no reason to assume that their normal immunities would benefit them against something as powerful as defenses designed to protect a gate.

At the previous gate, there was a paladin army. There's no reason to assume that this gate's defenses would be any less powerful (even with its caretakers removed by V), especially since this gate's defenses seem to rely more on magic than on anything else.

Edit: This specific panel, as well as the subsequent forum discussion found here, has enticed my first ever post after years of following the comic. Well Done Giant!

Devas
2013-05-05, 07:45 AM
There's two different schools that we are talking about: enchantment and Illusion. This effect is probably enchantment, which is mind-affecting charms or hallucinations and are generally only inside someones head. Illusions, on the other hand, can be seen by everyone, but if someone has a high enough will save, they will disbelive the illusion when they interact with it. thus, an enchantment effect makes you believe that the floor is just a floor and not a bottomless pit, while an illusion makes the bottomless pit look like a normal floor.

No, hallucinations generally fall under the Illusion (Phantasm) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#phantasm) subschool, exemplified by spells like Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm).

To quote the SRD:

"A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells."

Scizor
2013-05-05, 07:50 AM
No, hallucinations generally fall under the Illusion (Phantasm) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#phantasm) subschool, exemplified by spells like Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm).

To quote the SRD:

"A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells."
Oh, weak swear word!
Sorry, forgot about the subschools.

Kris Lighthawk
2013-05-05, 07:50 AM
Again, this is an enchantment, not an illusion. (At least, it's more probable that it is an enchantment). This means the spell can be vague, as in, "Everyone who doesn't save are trapped in a cataconic state while living in a world conjured up by their imagination."
So the Draketooths (yes, it's a personal name, so it's not Draketeeth.. at least, that's what I've learned) don't have to anticipate what will happen, the spell and the targets' imagination will supply the effect for them.

The Draketooth are illusion specialists, so it is unlikely it is an enchantment..
Rather it is probably a mind effecting illusion of the Phantasm ( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spell_Descriptions#Phantasm) type as that fits very well with what happens in the comic

Also since undead are immune to mind effecting effects (including Phantasms) both a lich and the vampires would be immune to it (unless the Giant has a house rule that means that intelligent undead aren’t immune to mind effecting effects)

Edit: Damn, Ninjas…

Morty
2013-05-05, 07:51 AM
Another hint that the fight was fake which you don't notice until after you see the conclusion - Xykon refers to Redcloak as "the goblin". Real Xykon wouldn't do it, but Roy thinks of Redcloak as "the goblin" rather than use his nickname.

SoC175
2013-05-05, 07:51 AM
It looks like this illusion may not have been a "worst fear" one, as we speculated earlier, so much as a "greatest fantasy" one.
Which is a pretty good strategy. The subject things all it's dreams have been accomplished and leaves, no longer bothering the gate

HandofShadows
2013-05-05, 07:57 AM
Knew something was wrong when V showed up unhurt. Now how the heck are they going to get out of this?

ZarDaranth
2013-05-05, 07:58 AM
Masterfully done. Given that it's been what, 300 strips since we first saw the disrupting strike in theory, it looks incredible to see, even in hallucinogenic practice.

If you think about it, this might be another Anti-Soon defense mechanism. Girard's pointed remark at Soon was that he was just trying to avenge his wife's death at any cost; what if this enchantment was made to make Soon relive his wife's death over and over as another punishment for violating their agreement to stay away from the gates?

It looks as if the enchantment is "Fight your own worst fear", and since Roy is in personal disarray about how they could possibly fight Xykon with a no-Durkon order, the worst fear is Xykon coming into play before Roy can manufacture a new plan. And I think that Girard set up the rune trap to be kind of like the message in the middle of the desert, only this time to anyone that tried to figure out what the runes did, as was discussed in the last strip, which is when I think the runes activated.

zimmerwald1915
2013-05-05, 08:02 AM
[1]: While Vaarsuvius used to talk like this, I doubt ze would anymore, and that Roy is simply projecting the Vaarsuvius he is used to 'full of zir own superiority' rather than Vaarsuvius as ze currently is.
She talked like that as recently as forty-eight strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0838.html).

B. Dandelion
2013-05-05, 08:03 AM
Another hint that the fight was fake which you don't notice until after you see the conclusion - Xykon refers to Redcloak as "the goblin". Real Xykon wouldn't do it, but Roy thinks of Redcloak as "the goblin" rather than use his nickname.

That whole bit reminded me of one of the bonus strips in No Cure.

Xykon: HEY! Nobody kills that many of my followers in one round except ME! Or maybe the goblin!

Chad30
2013-05-05, 08:11 AM
Very nice strip. Looks like they were caught in an illusion the whole time.

I'm glad we got to see how the mage killer move works. Cool.

I was upset when Scruffy "died". :(

Epileptic trees my ass. Called it.

I didn't really notice the little things at first, like Redcloak's eyepatch being wrong, and V being unhurt.

The MunchKING
2013-05-05, 08:15 AM
Seeing as he's standing there with swirly eyes, I'm going with "no."

They don't make Weird like they used to. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

countzane
2013-05-05, 08:17 AM
Hey guys! I'm using the power of The First Post to observe that Roy is ahead of Haley in the reveal panel....and he's behind her when he asks about the runes. That makes me think that the runes don't actually activate until the second to last panel of 885 at the earliest, because until then, the positioning isn't right. I think that it might actually be between the last and second to last panel when the runes trigger, since that would allow Haley to complete her turn and be in the position shown at the end of 886.

So....what does this mean? I dunno. But I'm glad that I've finally ceased lurking and joined all you crazy people enjoying this story!

theinsulabot
2013-05-05, 08:22 AM
That whole bit reminded me of one of the bonus strips in No Cure.

Xykon: HEY! Nobody kills that many of my followers in one round except ME! Or maybe the goblin!

sounds like a simpsons reference

Homer:Nobody ruins one of my family vacations but me! Or maybe the boy! *points at Bart*

Forikroder
2013-05-05, 08:24 AM
omg

new chapter

and its my birthday

and it was awesome

TODAY IS THE BEST BIRTHDAY EVER

WoLong
2013-05-05, 08:27 AM
Blarghblaw self-scrub

BaronOfHell
2013-05-05, 08:35 AM
I'm really glad we finally got to see something of this level.

So Malack, Durkon in vampire form and Xykon are all who're expected to be immune right?

Who're likely to go through this corridor? LG I'd say, not sure about team Evil though.

From the LG, only Z and Nale ought to be affected under the previous premise. Since for someone unaffected the so far only apparent clue of someone else being effected is the swirly eyes and the talking, and since Z does not talk a lot, it makes me wonder what Nale might accidentally spill to Malack this way.

Likewise, if Team Evil gets affected, what will RedCloak accidentally say within Xykon's range of hearing? Will Xykon finally have the means to open up the goblins cleric, something he failed at once before with the tsukiko gambit?
The MitD may also be affected, but I'm not aware how that will influence much, if anything.


omg
TODAY IS THE BEST BIRTHDAY EVER

Happy birthday! :-)

KillianHawkeye
2013-05-05, 08:40 AM
Awww maaaaan, a memory spirit would have been SO metal! :smallamused:

Morty
2013-05-05, 08:40 AM
That whole bit reminded me of one of the bonus strips in No Cure.

Xykon: HEY! Nobody kills that many of my followers in one round except ME! Or maybe the goblin!

I've never read the printed version of No Cure. So I guess it might not be so strange for Xykon to refer to Redcloak as "the goblin" after all.

squidbreath
2013-05-05, 08:40 AM
Scruffy! Nooooooooooo!!!

..wait, do cats get illusion'd well? Wonder if he escaped that

DaggerPen
2013-05-05, 08:44 AM
Does make me wonder if Mr. Scruffy was affected by the illusion, though.. and if not, if he'll try to snap the Order - well, okay, Belkar- out of it.

IDK what the rules on this are. I suppose there's probably no distinction between animals and the various PC races in terms of who's affected by a spell like this? Probably time for V to save the day, I suppose.

sims796
2013-05-05, 08:45 AM
Because O-Chul and Vaarsuvius both told him that Redcloak got stabbed in the eye. Just not which one. And the Order has almost no understanding of Redcloak's power level, such as whether or not he can cast 7th level clerical spells like Regeneration.

Ah, that had me a tad confused.

Aquatosic
2013-05-05, 08:47 AM
I can see it's green, when it should be black. I guess the illusion is determined by the spell itself and not the memories of the victims.

I guess we now know what move Roy learned from Horace in the afterlife.

~EDIT~
Never mind, it's always been that color/. :smallredface:

Will the move actually work in the actual fight though.

ferrodoxin
2013-05-05, 08:50 AM
We know that Girard thinks for some reason that Soon was happy about Kraagor dying at the last gate, and this is the reason why the Scribblers were seperated...

I'm thinking maybe the current effect they are under is something like Dorukan's "pure heart" test for his gate (Maybe it will turn those judged "worthy" into dinasours and they will see the gate :P ) and maybe Belkar's "Death" is some kind of test for Roy, and he may fail because he thinks Belkar's death is very convenient.

It is also possible that it works the other way; with Durkon's removal from the party their collecitve alignment weighs much more towards the chaotic side, and their pursuers demonstrated being lawful (except for Z).

Thoughts?

Rjanag
2013-05-05, 08:51 AM
Varsuvius wasn't affected by those Runes...:smallwink:

Vaarsuvius is not there.

Aquatosic
2013-05-05, 08:52 AM
:smalleek: WHAT IF THIS ENTIRE COMIC WAS AN ILLUSION AND ONLY THE PREQUEL VOLUMES ARE TRUE BECAUSE THE ORDER's WHOLE ADVENTURE WAS PART OF THE ILLUSION AND THEY JUST GOT TRAPPED ON THEIR FIRST DUNGEON CRAWL AS A PARTY!!!!!

Forikroder
2013-05-05, 08:55 AM
We know that Girard thinks for some reason that Soon was happy about Kraagor dying at the last gate, and this is the reason why the Scribblers were seperated...

I'm thinking maybe the current effect they are under is something like Dorukan's "pure heart" test for his gate (Maybe it will turn those judged "worthy" into dinasours and they will see the gate :P ) and maybe Belkar's "Death" is some kind of test for Roy, and he may fail because he thinks Belkar's death is very convenient.

It is also possible that it works the other way; with Durkon's removal from the party their collecitve alignment weighs much more towards the chaotic side, and their pursuers demonstrated being lawful (except for Z).

Thoughts?
i think your reading too much into it, its just a trap that they triggered and is now keeping them in a dream world, Roy saw everything happen taht he wanted to, he got to personally kill Xykon, Roy and Haley were innefective, V came back and Belkar died

the other 3 are probably all seeing there own personal illusion most likely at this point one of the draketooth would come in and deliver the coup on them or maybe the chamber was rigged with poison gas or some other deathtrap they could activate on demand

Aquatosic
2013-05-05, 08:55 AM
Evil as it is, I seriously want those illusory runes for my illusionist Gandrien. Hopefully their not epic-level or seventh-level or something hard to get to.

Doctor Foreman
2013-05-05, 08:55 AM
:smalleek: WHAT IF THIS ENTIRE COMIC WAS AN ILLUSION AND ONLY THE PREQUEL VOLUMES ARE TRUE BECAUSE THE ORDER's WHOLE ADVENTURE WAS PART OF THE ILLUSION AND THEY JUST GOT TRAPPED ON THEIR FIRST DUNGEON CRAWL AS A PARTY!!!!!

What if all of OOTS was just happening in the mind of a webcomic writer? THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE