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View Full Version : Ever wanted to blow up an army? [3.5/PF Spell, PEACH]



Wahrheit
2013-05-05, 03:14 AM
I decided that hey, you know what, evocation needs some love. So here's a spell that, while only moderately useful against most high-CR encounters, is great for dealing with things like that 10,000-strong army of level 5 warriors swarming your stronghold.

EDIT: current revision here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15178731&postcount=18)

Red Miles
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 9

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a black opal worth at least 500 gp)

EFFECT
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20 ft. spreads, see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half, see text; Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
You release a crimson cascade of carnage amidst those who would oppose you.

Everything within a 20 ft. spread takes 10d6 force damage. A Reflex save reduces the damage by half. Any creature that fails the save becomes the center of a new 20 ft. spread that also deals 10d6 force damage, Reflex save for half damage. Any creature within one of the secondary spreads that fails the Reflex save becomes the center of an identical 20 ft. spread, with the same duplicating property. Any given creature may only be the center of one of Red Miles' spreads once per casting, no matter how many Reflex saves they fail.

LordErebus12
2013-05-05, 03:34 AM
i must say, as is, its off balanced and not very powerful. definitely less than a 9th level spell, im thinking.

perhaps no save or spell resistance?

Wahrheit
2013-05-05, 03:48 AM
The main thing I see as making it a 9th level spell is that it can, quite easily, wipe out an entire army in one casting. It only does 10d6 per spread, but each spread has a good chance of creating more, which create more, which create more, each of which deals 10d6 to everyone caught in it... why yes, it was partially-inspired by the Dr. Device from Ender's Game. It's actually quite possible for any given person in the effect area to, given horrible luck, take around 400d6 force damage.

Doorhandle
2013-05-05, 07:27 AM
The main thing I see as making it a 9th level spell is that it can, quite easily, wipe out an entire army in one casting. It only does 10d6 per spread, but each spread has a good chance of creating more, which create more, which create more, each of which deals 10d6 to everyone caught in it... why yes, it was partially-inspired by the Dr. Device from Ender's Game. It's actually quite possible for any given person in the effect area to, given horrible luck, take around 400d6 force damage.

Also I though this was from Homestuck, (http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Miles) not ender's game... :smallannoyed:

That being said, I'm not sure how powerful it should be to be 9th level, and i'm hazarding a guess it already is.

Silva Stormrage
2013-05-05, 10:12 AM
The main thing I see as making it a 9th level spell is that it can, quite easily, wipe out an entire army in one casting. It only does 10d6 per spread, but each spread has a good chance of creating more, which create more, which create more, each of which deals 10d6 to everyone caught in it... why yes, it was partially-inspired by the Dr. Device from Ender's Game. It's actually quite possible for any given person in the effect area to, given horrible luck, take around 400d6 force damage.

You might want to cap out the number of times a creature can be hit. The main reason being I could see an evil wizard releasing a huge number of, lets say ants, and then detonating and dealing +100000d6 damage to a creature. Maybe cap it out at 5 detonations per individual creature? Thats still 50d6

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 10:48 AM
You might want to cap out the number of times a creature can be hit. The main reason being I could see an evil wizard releasing a huge number of, lets say ants, and then detonating and dealing +100000d6 damage to a creature. Maybe cap it out at 5 detonations per individual creature? Thats still 50d6

Actually, if it affects insects, then the wave will undoubtedly wash across the entire world. :smalleek: I can guarantee that there are dozens of insects within 20' of everyone. You might not see them, but they're there. :smallwink:

So, I think that you should apply the following changes:

No creature may be hit more than once.
Creatures must be Small or larger to set off a secondary blast.
Each subsequent blast has 1d6 less power (i.e. 10d6->9d6->8d6).

The save DC should decrease as well.

Change Reflex save to a Fortitude (or Will) save.

If the spell works like I think it does (red energy going in all directions) there won't be any kind of dodging.

Change Force damage to a kind of damage that can be warded against.
If a creature makes its save, its hit points cannot be reduced below 1 by this spell. (They're still effectively taken out of the battle.)
Change casting time to 10 rounds. (1 minute, which makes it useless for encounters but still fine for sieges.)


Not being able to hit the same creature multiple times would be necessary to avoid massive overkill on dice rolls, I think; unless you want to spend an hour rolling the dice. :smalltongue:

Still, up against a horde the effective radius will still usually be 100-200 feet. You'll end up decimating it, at least, and the remainder would be too badly damaged to continue fighting.

It might still be too powerful, though. I'll need to check the guidelines on epic spells... (This really is more in the Epic department.)

Yitzi
2013-05-05, 12:36 PM
I like it, but it does need the modifications described by Geordnet (except maybe the decrease in successive explosions).

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 12:52 PM
I like it, but it does need the modifications described by Geordnet (except maybe the decrease in successive explosions).

Even with the decrease in subsequent damage I suggested, it still pegs as a DC 35-55 Epic spell. Without them, the potentially unlimited blast radius sends this spell's DC soaring into the mid 100's, maybe even low 1000's. :smallyuk:

Yitzi
2013-05-05, 01:34 PM
Even with the decrease in subsequent damage I suggested, it still pegs as a DC 35-55 Epic spell. Without them, the potentially unlimited blast radius sends this spell's DC soaring into the mid 100's, maybe even low 1000's. :smallyuk:

I'm not so sure about that...it's powerful, but not going to do that much against equal-level enemies. If a level 20 evil wizard is using this to defend his fortress, a level 20 party can go in and take him out without having to worry about it. In that way, it's weaker than a lot of level 9 or even 8 or 7 spells; of course, it's stronger than any of them against an army.

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 01:48 PM
Here's what I suggest:

Red Miles
School Evocation [Chaos]
Level Sorcerer/Wizard 9

CASTING
Casting Time 10 minutes (100 standard actions)
Components V, S, F, XP

EFFECT
Range Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area 20 ft. spreads, see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
You release a crimson cascade of carnage amidst those who would oppose you. Those afflicted surge with pure primal energies, causing them to explode -adding to the wave of destruction in a chain reaction.

All living (or unliving) creatures (not constructs) within the affected area take 10d6 damage; a successful Fortitude save means that this damage cannot reduce the target to less than 1 HP.

Creatures sized Small, Medium, or Large which are killed by this effect explode with a cascade of energy. All living (or unliving) creatures (not constructs) within 20 feet of the slain creature (which have not been targeted by a Red Miles within the last 24 hours) are also hit by this spell; except that they take one less die of damage and the save to resist is reduced by 2. Subsequent bursts caused by these creatures dying have their power additionally reduced in the same manner.


The damage dealt by this spell is of no specific energy type, however all spells or magic items which reduce or absorb damage of a specific energy will affect damage from this spell accordingly. (If there are multiple similar effects on a creature, but for different energy types, apply only the strongest of these effects.)


Focus:
A perfect sphere of black opal worth at least 10,000 GP.

XP Cost:
100 XP; additionally the caster receives no XP for creatures killed by this spell.

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 01:50 PM
I'm not so sure about that...it's powerful, but not going to do that much against equal-level enemies. If a level 20 evil wizard is using this to defend his fortress, a level 20 party can go in and take him out without having to worry about it. In that way, it's weaker than a lot of level 9 or even 8 or 7 spells; of course, it's stronger than any of them against an army.

It doesn't matter to the spell. I just looked at this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm), and it says every 100% of radius increase adds +4 to the DC. (The base for the Energy seed is either 10 or 20 foot radius, it's a bit unclear.) And if the radius is increased 10,000%... :smallyuk:

bobthe6th
2013-05-05, 01:57 PM
It doesn't matter to the spell. I just looked at this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm), and it says every 100% of radius increase adds +4 to the DC. (The base for the Energy seed is either 10 or 20 foot radius, it's a bit unclear.) And if the radius is increased 10,000%... :smallyuk:

Epic spells are not balanced, nor relevant. It is such a broken mess... just let it rust in disuse.

Yitzi
2013-05-05, 02:24 PM
It doesn't matter to the spell. I just looked at this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm), and it says every 100% of radius increase adds +4 to the DC. (The base for the Energy seed is either 10 or 20 foot radius, it's a bit unclear.) And if the radius is increased 10,000%... :smallyuk:

Firstly, as bobthe6th said, the epic spell system is broken. Seed-based casting does have potential IMO, but not the way the epic spell system does it.

Secondly, there's a big difference between "target a 1000 foot radius with a spell that could be basically anything" and "target a 1000 foot radius if it's completely filled with an army, with specifically a fairly weak effect."

Thirdly, the epic spell system is broken, particularly in that it further exacerbates the existing high-level advantage that effect-based casters have over evokers.

Devronq
2013-05-05, 03:05 PM
Just wanted to say i love the idea of this spell good job on the concept :) im going to rewrite it a bit and use it my campaign :)

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 04:18 PM
Firstly, as bobthe6th said, the epic spell system is broken.
Fine, it's just an example to show how OP the spell would be if unlimited. :smalltongue:



Secondly, there's a big difference between "target a 1000 foot radius with a spell that could be basically anything" and "target a 1000 foot radius if it's completely filled with an army
I don't see how it's any different, seeing how they will both hit the same number of targets. :smallconfused:



with specifically a fairly weak effect."
10d6 is weak? :smallconfused:

For a high-level character, I guess, but this is a spell specifically targeted at low-level characters, for which 10d6 (or even 5d6) is a death sentence.


If the chain reaction isn't limited somehow, then the potential for destruction is astronomically huge, way too high for even a level 9 spell. It might be too high even for epic spells; just look up the discussion on Familicide.

The potential for abuse is great, too. A wizard with this (unlimited) spell could wipe out civilization in a week! I don't think any GM wants that kind of power at his PC's fingertips.



Anyways, what I suggested would keep the spirit of the spell while limiting the abuse potential. It will still decimate armies in a chain reaction, and force what's left to retreat. I don't know if it's enough, though, it might need to get nerfed even more before it's out of the city-killing range...

(Reposting my suggestion.)
Red Miles
School Evocation [Chaos]
Level Sorcerer/Wizard 9

CASTING
Casting Time 10 minutes (100 standard actions)
Components V, S, F, XP

EFFECT
Range Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area 20 ft. spreads, see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
You release a crimson cascade of carnage amidst those who would oppose you. Those afflicted surge with pure primal energies, causing them to explode -adding to the wave of destruction in a chain reaction.

All living (or unliving) creatures (not constructs) within the affected area take 10d6 damage; a successful Fortitude save means that this damage cannot reduce the target to less than 1 HP.

Creatures sized Small, Medium, or Large which are killed by this effect explode with a cascade of energy. All living (or unliving) creatures (not constructs) within 20 feet of the slain creature (which have not been targeted by a Red Miles within the last 24 hours) are also hit by this spell; except that they take one less die of damage and the save to resist is reduced by 2. Subsequent bursts caused by these creatures dying have their power additionally reduced in the same manner.


The damage dealt by this spell is of no specific energy type, however all spells or magic items which reduce or absorb damage of a specific energy will affect damage from this spell accordingly. (If there are multiple similar effects on a creature, but for different energy types, apply only the strongest of these effects.)


Focus:
A perfect sphere of black opal worth at least 10,000 GP.

XP Cost:
100 XP; additionally the caster receives no XP for creatures killed by this spell.

Morcleon
2013-05-05, 04:39 PM
...I'd put yours (Geordnet's) as maybe level 8?

Undead are automatically immune to this spell, as it's a Fort save. Also, it's somewhat useless against any sort of army with any sort of significant caster-buff support. Too easy to stop/mitigate with staggered ranks and small amounts of energy resistance. Once you know that someone has this spell, you make your army stay at least 20' away from each other when marching.

I'd also take out the "can't gain XP from this spell". Things you kill with it probably wouldn't give a Lv 17+ character XP anyway...


If the chain reaction isn't limited somehow, then the potential for destruction is astronomically huge, way too high for even a level 9 spell. It might be too high even for epic spells; just look up the discussion on Familicide.

This is definitely not even close to the stuff epic spells can do. With a few leadership feats, I can make a spell that will cover the entire world in a bubble of magic that lets me do effectively whatever the hell I want. :smallamused::smallwink:


The potential for abuse is great, too. A wizard with this (unlimited) spell could wipe out civilization in a week! I don't think any GM wants that kind of power at his PC's fingertips.

A level 17 swordsage could also do about the same level of damage using Inferno Blast, killing pretty much every normal citizen within 60' every 18 seconds (one round to move, one to attack, one to recharge).


Anyways, what I suggested would keep the spirit of the spell while limiting the abuse potential. It will still decimate armies in a chain reaction, and force what's left to retreat. I don't know if it's enough, though, it might need to get nerfed even more before it's out of the city-killing range...

You're assuming mortal armies here. Most high level characters are going up against planar armies. They will have enough basic defense to make this maybe hurt a few of them.

Yitzi
2013-05-05, 04:47 PM
Fine, it's just an example to show how OP the spell would be if unlimited. :smalltongue:

But if you're trying to compare it to a broken system, that doesn't explain much.


I don't see how it's any different, seeing how they will both hit the same number of targets. :smallconfused:

They will hit the same number of targets in a particular situation. In more general situations (e.g. it's a bunch of people not clumped together like in an army), the one with an actual large area will hit more.


10d6 is weak? :smallconfused:

For a high-level character, I guess, but this is a spell specifically targeted at low-level characters, for which 10d6 (or even 5d6) is a death sentence.

But it's taking a slot from a high-level character. For its level, it's fairly weak (though I could see reducing it to 5d6.)


If the chain reaction isn't limited somehow

Of course it's limited somehow. It's limited by how many people are in a group with people no more than 20 feet from each other.


It might be too high even for epic spells; just look up the discussion on Familicide.

If Familicide only tracked through living blood relations (similar to this), it wouldn't be nearly as destructive.


Anyways, what I suggested would keep the spirit of the spell while limiting the abuse potential. It will still decimate armies in a chain reaction, and force what's left to retreat.

Unless it's a large army that takes up substantially more than a 100-200 ft radius (a few hundred thousand if they're tightly packed, even 100 thousand if they're more loosely packed.)


I don't know if it's enough, though, it might need to get nerfed even more before it's out of the city-killing range...

Look around yourself right now. How many people are within 20 feet of you? How many are within 20 feet of them? I doubt it'll get very far; even setting it off in a busy marketplace won't go far beyond that marketplace.

Wahrheit
2013-05-05, 04:54 PM
Also I though this was from Homestuck, (http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Miles) not ender's game... :smallannoyed:

That being said, I'm not sure how powerful it should be to be 9th level, and i'm hazarding a guess it already is.

Note I said it was partially inspired by Ender's Game. The other half was in fact Jack Noir.


Anyways, what I suggested would keep the spirit of the spell while limiting the abuse potential. It will still decimate armies in a chain reaction, and force what's left to retreat. I don't know if it's enough, though, it might need to get nerfed even more before it's out of the city-killing range...

(Reposting my suggestion.)
Red Miles
School Evocation [Chaos]
Level Sorcerer/Wizard 9

CASTING
Casting Time 10 minutes (100 standard actions)
Components V, S, F, XP

EFFECT
Range Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area 20 ft. spreads, see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
You release a crimson cascade of carnage amidst those who would oppose you. Those afflicted surge with pure primal energies, causing them to explode -adding to the wave of destruction in a chain reaction.

All living (or unliving) creatures (not constructs) within the affected area take 10d6 damage; a successful Fortitude save means that this damage cannot reduce the target to less than 1 HP.

Creatures sized Small, Medium, or Large which are killed by this effect explode with a cascade of energy. All living (or unliving) creatures (not constructs) within 20 feet of the slain creature (which have not been targeted by a Red Miles within the last 24 hours) are also hit by this spell; except that they take one less die of damage and the save to resist is reduced by 2. Subsequent bursts caused by these creatures dying have their power additionally reduced in the same manner.


The damage dealt by this spell is of no specific energy type, however all spells or magic items which reduce or absorb damage of a specific energy will affect damage from this spell accordingly. (If there are multiple similar effects on a creature, but for different energy types, apply only the strongest of these effects.)


Focus:
A perfect sphere of black opal worth at least 10,000 GP.

XP Cost:
100 XP; additionally the caster receives no XP for creatures killed by this spell.

Thanks for the feedback! I definitely agree with the size restriction for the chain reaction, since accidentally obliterating most life on the planet is... less than optimal. Since I'm developing this as both a 3.5 and a Pathfinder spell, I'm trying to avoid XP costs, and since the things likely to be flat-out killed by Red Miles are unlikely to give XP to a character capable of casting it anyway. Here's a revised version:

Red Miles
School Evocation [Chaos]
Level Sorcerer/Wizard 9

CASTING
Casting Time 1 minute (10 standard actions)
Components V, S, F

EFFECT
Range Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20 ft. spreads, see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
You release a crimson cascade of carnage amidst those who would oppose you. Those afflicted surge with pure primal energies, causing them to explode -adding to the wave of destruction in a chain reaction.

All living (or unliving) creatures (not constructs) within the affected area take 10d6 damage; a successful Fortitude save means that this damage cannot reduce the target to less than 1 HP. Undead are not immune to this spell.

Creatures sized Small or larger which are killed by this effect explode with a cascade of energy. All living (or unliving) creatures (not constructs) within 20 feet of the slain creature (which have not been targeted by a Red Miles within the last 24 hours) are also hit by this spell; except that they take one less die of damage, to a minimum of 3d6, and the save to resist is reduced by 2, to a minimum of DC 10. Subsequent bursts caused by these creatures dying have their power additionally reduced in the same manner.


The damage dealt by this spell is of no specific energy type, however all spells or magic items which reduce or absorb damage of a specific energy will affect damage from this spell accordingly. (If there are multiple similar effects on a creature, but for different energy types, apply only the strongest of these effects.)


Focus:
A perfect sphere of black opal worth at least 10,000 GP.

I added a limit to how much the blasts' damage and save DC can decrease, since even taking a 200-foot chunk out of an army is actually not all that huge, considering the scales of medieval-style warfare. I kept the energy resistance part of it, since this isn't meant to be the be-all-end-all I WIN button; if the army has caster support granting Resist Elements or the like, they'll resist much better. I also added a line mentioning that despite requiring a Fortitude save, undead are explicitly not immune to it. Finally, I kept it as Long range, since otherwise there's far too much risk of catching your own fortifications in the blast.

Morcleon
2013-05-05, 04:57 PM
I'd take down the casting time to 1 minute. 10 minutes is plenty of time for an army to retreat out of range, and then come right back in. :smalltongue:

Wahrheit
2013-05-05, 05:01 PM
I'd take down the casting time to 1 minute. 10 minutes is plenty of time for an army to retreat out of range, and then come right back in. :smalltongue:

With the range increased to Long, it'll be tougher to get out of range while it's being cast. I may reduce the time required to 5 minutes, though.

Morcleon
2013-05-05, 05:09 PM
With the range increased to Long, it'll be tougher to get out of range while it's being cast. I may reduce the time required to 5 minutes, though.

An army moving at 30'/round can still get past a level 20 character's range (1200 ft) in about 4 minutes.

The spellcraft DC to identify this would also be 24, which isn't too hard, assuming the army actually has any sort of caster support. And they could simply pepper the caster with arrows until he fails a concentration check. :smalltongue:

Wahrheit
2013-05-05, 05:23 PM
An army moving at 30'/round can still get past a level 20 character's range (1200 ft) in about 4 minutes.

The spellcraft DC to identify this would also be 24, which isn't too hard, assuming the army actually has any sort of caster support. And they could simply pepper the caster with arrows until he fails a concentration check. :smalltongue:

True. Reducing it to 1 minute. Of course, if a 17th-level or higher caster is dumb enough to let himself get shot while casting this, he deserves the spell failure.

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 05:29 PM
Spoiler'd for length:

...I'd put yours (Geordnet's) as maybe level 8?
No way. Just one blast of this spell is on par with the other level 8 evocations. :smallyuk:


Also, it's somewhat useless against any sort of army with any sort of significant caster-buff support. Too easy to stop/mitigate with staggered ranks and small amounts of energy resistance.
Small amounts? Most of the damage is going to be done with >5d6, where Resist Energy isn't going to matter much. So, we're looking at one fifth-level cleric per soldier you want to ward, with no gaurantee that it'll be enough... And there are hundreds if not thousands of soldiers that need warding.


Once you know that someone has this spell, you make your army stay at least 20' away from each other when marching.
That simply isn't feasible for a pre-WWII army, from a logistical, tactical, and geographical point of view.



I'd also take out the "can't gain XP from this spell". Things you kill with it probably wouldn't give a Lv 17+ character XP anyway...
Individually. Taken as a group, 1000's of low-level characters could easily have a CR in the 20's-30's. :smalltongue:

This is more a pre-emptive measure to avoid munchkinry XP-farming, and such.



A level 17 swordsage could also do about the same level of damage using Inferno Blast, killing pretty much every normal citizen within 60' every 18 seconds (one round to move, one to attack, one to recharge).
At that rate, it'll take him a week to take out just one city; and it's really easy for the authorities to find him. This spell would take out multiple cities an hour, assuming the wizard teleported between them. Also, he can do it without warning, so scrying is necessary to find him.

Besides, without more context it just sounds like Inferno Blast is OP too. :smalltongue:



You're assuming mortal armies here.
Yes, I am, since that was the stated purpose of the spell.



But if you're trying to compare it to a broken system, that doesn't explain much.
How about this, then: It has the same power as a fireball, but thousands of times the AOE.



They will hit the same number of targets in a particular situation. In more general situations (e.g. it's a bunch of people not clumped together like in an army), the one with an actual large area will hit more.
But when it matters, they'll be the same.



But it's taking a slot from a high-level character. For its level, it's fairly weak (though I could see reducing it to 5d6.)
5d6 would be a good step, I think. However, even if you limited this to 3 or 4 subsequent bursts, it's at least as destructive as Meteor Swarm.



Of course it's limited somehow. It's limited by how many people are in a group with people no more than 20 feet from each other.
Not nearly as far as you think.



If Familicide only tracked through living blood relations (similar to this), it wouldn't be nearly as destructive.
Well there's no such limitation for this. It spreads to anyone within 20 feet.



Unless it's a large army that takes up substantially more than a 100-200 ft radius (a few hundred thousand if they're tightly packed, even 100 thousand if they're more loosely packed.)
Um...

100-200 foot radius isn't an army. That's a platoon. (Even if you're paking them like sardines.) Armies are miles across (dozens or hundreds in our modern era) and contain tens of thousands of soldiers. And 20' is a very loose formation, which reduces combat effectiveness to nil for non-ranged troops.



Look around yourself right now. How many people are within 20 feet of you? How many are within 20 feet of them? I doubt it'll get very far; even setting it off in a busy marketplace won't go far beyond that marketplace.
About 20-50 people, actually. If you'd asked at this time 4 days ago, it'd be 100. In a modern city, it'd wash through several skyscrapers.

Remember, it takes only one person to spread the blast to another dense area.

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 05:30 PM
The spellcraft DC to identify this would also be 24, which isn't too hard, assuming the army actually has any sort of caster support. And they could simply pepper the caster with arrows until he fails a concentration check. :smalltongue:
Assuming they can see the caster, or hit him. Either would be difficult for a wizard in a tower.

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 05:32 PM
With the range increased to Long, it'll be tougher to get out of range while it's being cast. I may reduce the time required to 5 minutes, though.

I shortened the range because it's more interesting if the caster's in the danger zone. :smallwink:

Wahrheit
2013-05-05, 05:33 PM
About 20-50 people, actually. If you'd asked at this time 4 days ago, it'd be 100. In a modern city, it'd wash through several skyscrapers.

Remember, it takes only one person to spread the blast to another dense area.
Except that as a spread, things like walls and ceilings block line of effect. It'd actually have a lot of trouble taking out an office building, just because there's not likely to be easy paths for it to take to spread between floors or even offices.

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 05:37 PM
Except that as a spread, things like walls and ceilings block line of effect. It'd actually have a lot of trouble taking out an office building, just because there's not likely to be easy paths for it to take to spread between floors or even offices.
Ah, that would make a difference... Although the way I was envisioning it, the tide of red energy would just phase through normal matter. :smalltongue:

Wahrheit
2013-05-05, 05:42 PM
Ah, that would make a difference... Although the way I was envisioning it, the tide of red energy would just phase through normal matter. :smalltongue:

That would definitely push it up a power tier, since you can't hide from it the way you can from fireballs or meteor swarm or anything else. I was sorely tempted to do so when first writing the spell. :smalltongue:

Yitzi
2013-05-05, 06:37 PM
How about this, then: It has the same power as a fireball, but thousands of times the AOE.

Which makes it a lot less powerful than something like Energy Drain.


But when it matters, they'll be the same.

Ok, point. Even so, it's useful only for certain circumstances.


5d6 would be a good step, I think. However, even if you limited this to 3 or 4 subsequent bursts, it's at least as destructive as Meteor Swarm.

Isn't Meteor Swarm generally held up as an example of an underpowered level 9 spell?


Well there's no such limitation for this. It spreads to anyone within 20 feet.

Which is probably at least as severe a limitation as "living blood relative".


Um...

100-200 foot radius isn't an army. That's a platoon. (Even if you're paking them like sardines.) Armies are miles across (dozens or hundreds in our modern era) and contain tens of thousands of soldiers. And 20' is a very loose formation, which reduces combat effectiveness to nil for non-ranged troops.

So usually your idea will only kill a platoon.

With a level 9 spell that's borderline useless against equal-CR enemies, it deserves better than "only kill a platoon".


About 20-50 people, actually. If you'd asked at this time 4 days ago, it'd be 100. In a modern city, it'd wash through several skyscrapers.

Aren't the walls of the skyscrapers, plus the distance between them, plus the distance from people to the walls, usually going to end up at more than 20 feet?


Remember, it takes only one person to spread the blast to another dense area.

I wonder...what if everyone got a +10 on their save?

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 09:30 PM
Which makes it a lot less powerful than something like Energy Drain.
Debatable. The two are in different categories, it's hard to draw direct comparisons between the two.



Isn't Meteor Swarm generally held up as an example of an underpowered level 9 spell?
I wouldn't know about that one.



Which is probably at least as severe a limitation as "living blood relative".
Not really. With "living blood relative", you've got a reasonable maximum of a hundred or so people. There is no such limit to how many people can be in a chain spaced less than 20' apart.



So usually your idea will only kill a platoon.

With a level 9 spell that's borderline useless against equal-CR enemies, it deserves better than "only kill a platoon".
Um, I don't think so. That's literally decimating the attackers, usually. (A larger army would have more soldiers in the same spot, so you'd probably get a whole company.)

What's more, it's a gory, indiscriminent, inescapable, painful, and visible death. Good luck keeping the rest of the army from deserting after a few of these. :smallwink:

Yitzi
2013-05-05, 09:51 PM
Debatable. The two are in different categories, it's hard to draw direct comparisons between the two.

True. But if so, doesn't that mean that it's hard to say that one is overpowered at the same spell level as the other?


Not really. With "living blood relative", you've got a reasonable maximum of a hundred or so people. There is no such limit to how many people can be in a chain spaced less than 20' apart.

There's no limit to how many people can be in a chain involving living blood relatives. It's not likely to have a huge amount, but then neither is a large chain of people spaced less than 20' apart.


Um, I don't think so. That's literally decimating the attackers, usually.

At that level, if we're balancing against existing wizards*, I figure they should be capable of destroying more than just a fraction of an enemy army.

*An important stipulation; compared to what fighters get, this is definitely overpowered.

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 10:35 PM
True. But if so, doesn't that mean that it's hard to say that one is overpowered at the same spell level as the other?
Possibly. Again, it's debatable, but I figure it's better to play it safe.



There's no limit to how many people can be in a chain involving living blood relatives. It's not likely to have a huge amount, but then neither is a large chain of people spaced less than 20' apart.
Not when people are packed in dense conditions. Entire armies can be less than 20' apart, while for mortals there's rarely more than three or four generations alive at a time.



At that level, if we're balancing against existing wizards*, I figure they should be capable of destroying more than just a fraction of an enemy army.
But they would require more than one spell to do so. So too can this spell be cast multiple times to finish off the army.

Yitzi
2013-05-05, 10:39 PM
Not when people are packed in dense conditions. Entire armies can be less than 20' apart, while for mortals there's rarely more than three or four generations alive at a time.

Yeah, but those three or four generations can involve a lot of cousins and cousins' spouses (who are in a chain of blood relations if there are children), and cousins' spouses cousins, etc.




But they would require more than one spell to do so. So too can this spell be cast multiple times to finish off the army.

Ok, I suppose that makes sense.

Kane0
2013-05-05, 10:57 PM
Wow, this spell looks pretty impressive. I may use it in a game I'm running if that's ok with you.

Also, I came up with a weaker version of it that just in case the party does what I think they'll do sooner than expected.

Crimson Tide

Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Effect: 20' radius burst, 20' high
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
Spell Resistance: Yes

You unleash a blast of Energy around you, acting as a catalyst for additional blasts (see below) and dealing 1d6 damage per 2 Caster levels (max 10d6) to all within the affected area, excluding the caster. A successful Reflex save halves this damage.
If this spell reduces a target to less than 0 HP an identical blast of energy occurs centered on the felled target, to a maximum number of 'generations' of bursts equal to one per 4 caster levels (max 5). Any one target cannot be affected by this spell more than once.

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 11:43 PM
Wow, this spell looks pretty impressive. I may use it in a game I'm running if that's ok with you.

Also, I came up with a weaker version of it that just in case the party does what I think they'll do sooner than expected.

Crimson Tide

Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Effect: 20' radius burst, 20' high
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
Spell Resistance: Yes

You unleash a blast of Energy around you, acting as a catalyst for additional blasts (see below) and dealing 1d6 damage per 2 Caster levels (max 10d6) to all within the affected area, excluding the caster. A successful Reflex save halves this damage.
If this spell reduces a target to less than 0 HP an identical blast of energy occurs centered on the felled target, to a maximum number of 'generations' of bursts equal to one per 4 caster levels (max 5). Any one target cannot be affected by this spell more than once.


Don't forget about the diminishing power with subsequent blasts; this one you might not want a minimum value on, either. Making the range zero certainly adds to the "excitement", though. :smallwink:

Kane0
2013-05-05, 11:52 PM
My thoughts exactly. It'll do less damage, have a cap on the number of bursts, can only affect someone once and is centered on you but is a standard action to cast.

Though it already has 1d6/2 CL damage, I don't know if I want it to be even less over iterative bursts. And evasion/ improved evasion works perfectly well on this too.

Geordnet
2013-05-05, 11:56 PM
Yeah, but those three or four generations can involve a lot of cousins and cousins' spouses (who are in a chain of blood relations if there are children), and cousins' spouses cousins, etc.

Familicide specifically only goes for one link of cousins. So, you'd get all the direct decendants of all the target's living direct ancestors, then repeat the process once for each individual targeted.

Geordnet
2013-05-06, 12:02 AM
My thoughts exactly. It'll do less damage, have a cap on the number of bursts, can only affect someone once and is centered on you but is a standard action to cast.

Though it already has 1d6/2 CL damage, I don't know if I want it to be even less over iterative bursts. And evasion/ improved evasion works perfectly well on this too.

If you don't have it decrease, it'll be more powerful than the higher-level version by the time one can cast both.

Perhaps if you just gave it 6d6 damage regardless of caster level, and limited the number of generations to three; maybe even add a bit of backlash damage...

Kane0
2013-05-06, 12:15 AM
If you don't have it decrease, it'll be more powerful than the higher-level version by the time one can cast both.

Perhaps if you just gave it 6d6 damage regardless of caster level, and limited the number of generations to three; maybe even add a bit of backlash damage...

The thing is that as is the best it would be able to do to any one target at CL 20 is the same effect as that of a CL 10 fireball, just not fire damage. Wha makes it a higher spell level is that if it kills a target is makes the effective area that the spell covers bigger.
In essence this is just a fireball with bigger radius and non-fire damage. Even at spell level 7 that seems a little substandard, except for the intended application.