886 possible explanation. spoilers

[mrzomby]

So, did Roy just kill V, thinking he was Xykon? hear me out here, there are a few things leading me to this.
1. Xykon didn't attack until he was attacked, this isn't anything too damning though.

2. Belkar "died" during the combat, but was still up and present in the final panel. Doesn't look like a zombie or anything either. So, I am thinking Xykon was not even there at all?

3. If Xykon wasn't there, then what if the trigger of xykon walking in was another spell caster, V(red cloak = blackwing?)

4. Xykon(V) called out Roy's name, instead of blueblade or whatever?

5. V is not in the final panel

So, does this seem like enough to say it is possible Roy killed V, while blackwing looked on in terror from some sort of protection spell V selflessly cast on him?

[Mike Havran]

I don't think so, because he didn't draw his sword out. He's simply standing there, dreaming, in an empty corridor.

[Querzis]

Yeah I highly doubt any of them actually did anything. What I'm wondering though is that, since Belkar apparently think hes dead, does that mean he'll actually stop breathing until he does die?

Anyway, the most annoying thing about this is that, while this illusion maze would probably dispatch almost anyone, it will have absolutely no effect on Xykon since hes an undead.

[Copperdragon]

Anyway, the most annoying thing about this is that, while this illusion maze would probably dispatch almost anyone, it will have absolutely no effect on Xykon since hes an undead.

Why? Does a lich have some immunity to illusions?

[oppyu]

Yeah I highly doubt any of them actually did anything. What I'm wondering though is that, since Belkar apparently think hes dead, does that mean he'll actually stop breathing until he does die?

Anyway, the most annoying thing about this is that, while this illusion maze would probably dispatch almost anyone, it will have absolutely no effect on Xykon since hes an undead.
On the plus side, it would knock out Redcloak, and Xykon can't do anything with the gate (including handing it over to the Dark One) without him.

My impression is that they're all in their own separate illusions where they are the hero of a climatic battle. Except for Mr. Scruffy, who is in the land of fish and Belkars.

[Copperdragon]

We are not even sure if all of them saw the same. So far, I think we only learned about Roy's Illusion.

I bet it is some sort of "See what you fear most"-Illusion. For Roy it is "Encounter Xykon on top of Everything else".
That this is also Roy's perspective is underlined by Belkar's Death. Roy fears Xykon, therefore, he encounters them. He wants to win and uses his "specialy new feat" and by that basically single-handedly defeats Xykon. He wants to do that and in his own Dreamworld, he does.
Roy also hopes that the issue "Belkar" will solve itself - and in his Dreamworld, it does.

[Querzis]

Why? Does a lich have some immunity to illusions?

Not to illusions but all undead are immune to mind-affecting effect which, considering the last panel of 886, is definitly part of the spell description. Its probably some kind of more powerfull and specific version of Phantasmal Killer which target someone dreams instead of fears.

...which make me realize that, when the Linear Guild get there, Malack and Durkon will also be immune to it.


We are not even sure if all of them saw the same. So far, I think we only learned about Roy's Illusion.

I bet it is some sort of "See what you fear most"-Illusion. For Roy it is "Encounter Xykon on top of Everything else".
That this is also Roy's perspective is underlined by Belkar's Death. Roy fears Xykon, therefore, he encounters them. He wants to win and uses his "specialy new feat" and by that basically single-handedly defeats Xykon. He wants to do that and in his own Dreamworld, he does.
Roy also hopes that the issue "Belkar" will solve itself - and in his Dreamworld, it does.

Thats actually a very good point. Its a specific illusion thats obviously made from someones mind so there is absolutely no reason for them to all see the same thing just because they are right next to each others.

[VanaGalen]

That illusion thing is pretty neat, but when it actually started? Did Xykon appear for real or the previous strips were also Roy's imagination?

In 886 imagined panels are shaded purple and 885 doesn't have that shade. On the other hand, if Xykon was there for real and assuming he's immune to that illusion, wouldn't he kill them on the spot?

[Domino Quartz]

In 886 imagined panels are shaded purple

How did you get that idea? I'm almost 100% certain that the panels only start to turn purple to start cluing in the reader that things are not as they seem, and that the end of 885 and all of 886 (except the last panel, obviously) was an illusion.

[AngryHobbit]

"Greatest Desire" is much more interesting than "Greatest Fear" illusion.
It would be cool if Belkar is the first who snaps out of it. Or Genre Savvy Elan.

[Mantine]

2. Belkar "died" during the combat, but was still up and present in the final panel. Doesn't look like a zombie or anything either. So, I am thinking Xykon was not even there at all?

Gee, you think?

[VanaGalen]

So the illusion started at the end of 881, right when the crossed the gate? Before that there are no runes on the walls, so I guess everything was real.

[KillianHawkeye]

My guess is that dream-Xykon said Roy's name because it was Roy's dream and one of his desires is for Xykon to actually remember him.

[skim172]

I support the idea that what we see constitutes "Roy's illusion" and that each person is seeing the illusion that they most desire. For Roy, that's singlehandedly defeating Xykon, V coming back safe and sound, and the Belkar problem resolving itself without much concern from the party.

Dunno what Mr. Scruffy dying means - Roy must not be a cat person.


So the real pressing question is - What flavor of ice cream is Elan enjoying in his illusion that would make him drool like that? Chocolate? Strawberry? Cherry garcia? Rocky road?

[Roland Itiative]

4. Xykon(V) called out Roy's name, instead of blueblade or whatever?

This is not evidence for the illusion being V at all. He only calls Roy "Sir Greenhilt". It's part of Roy's need to have Xykon acknowledge him as a threat. Illusion-Xykon not only remembers who he is, or even his surname, he remembers his first name.

Anyway, as pointed out, the characters don't seem to be acting out the illusion in real life. They're just standing there, drooling, while their mind wanders and they think they're fighting. Notice how none of them has weapons (or musical instrument) drawn on the last panel.

As for the purple shading, I was under the impression this was light of the force cage at first reading. Now I can see it gets stronger in each subsequent panel, in fact hinting this is all an illusion. Very subtle.

[KillianHawkeye]

So the real pressing question is - What flavor of ice cream is Elan enjoying in his illusion that would make him drool like that? Chocolate? Strawberry? Cherry garcia? Rocky road?

Haley flavored! mmmmmmmmmmm :smallbiggrin:

[Stormlock]

I think they're all in separate illusions. Note that Elan is DROOLING. He probably thinks they found Girard's secret Ice Cream room or something. And beating Xykon is really only Roy's personal goal. There's no way it'd be Belkar's fantasy. Haley is probably swimming in a dragon horde.

I wonder if Belkar will be the first to snap out of it. He's been in hippy vision quest mode before. Well, not much point in speculating, evidence from previous comments apparently doesn't matter when it comes to what the future may hold. :smallyuk:

[SaintRidley]

V was never there. Xykon and Redcloak were never there. There were never any arrows fired, spells cast, or swords swung. Nobody is dead.

[Chronos]

I don't think Elan is drooling because he's dreaming of food. I think he's drooling because he's in a mindless stupor.

Nor do I think that the illusion is necessarily of the target's greatest desire, since that doesn't make much sense as a defensive ward. I think that greatest fear makes a lot more sense. In-game, Roy managing to beat Xykon in the illusion probably means that he made a saving throw against the effect, and if he hadn't, he probably would have lost (and died for real).

[Roland Itiative]

Nor do I think that the illusion is necessarily of the target's greatest desire, since that doesn't make much sense as a defensive ward. I think that greatest fear makes a lot more sense. In-game, Roy managing to beat Xykon in the illusion probably means that he made a saving throw against the effect, and if he hadn't, he probably would have lost (and died for real).

An illusion of the target getting his greatest wishes fulfilled makes as much sense as a defensive ward as an illusion of their greatest fear. Both have the target stay put, completely harmless, while the illusion goes on.

And an argument could be made that making the target see his greatest dreams realised would be a harder illusion to break than having their greatest fears come true, since breaking from an illusion requires disbelief, and it's easier to deny a bad situation than a good one.

Furthermore, the idea that Roy succeeded on a saving throw makes no sense, since he's still clearly under the effect of the illusion, and as paralysed as the rest of the Order. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what they're seeing, just that they're seeing something that isn't real.

[Stormlock]

Yep, this spell is of a much better design than say Weird, which attempts to kill the victim. One of the reasons Weird is so awful is that it offers two saving throws; the first to disbelieve, and the second to resist the death effect.

This has no death effect, it just holds you. Inexperienced blasty casters might assume that Weird is better, but a real caster knows that an immobilized target is as good as dead anyways, and the risk of breaking that isn't worth it at all. Right now anyone could come along and coup d' grace the order with a rock (or a stick). Or if they're immune to critical hits, they could be turned to stone, or Imprison'd, or Plane Shifted, etc.

Versatility is what makes spellcasters tier 1. And this is way more versatile than a spell that tries to kill people.

[Sir_Leorik]

So, did Roy just kill V, thinking he was Xykon? hear me out here, there are a few things leading me to this.
1. Xykon didn't attack until he was attacked, this isn't anything too damning though.

2. Belkar "died" during the combat, but was still up and present in the final panel. Doesn't look like a zombie or anything either. So, I am thinking Xykon was not even there at all?

3. If Xykon wasn't there, then what if the trigger of xykon walking in was another spell caster, V(red cloak = blackwing?)

4. Xykon(V) called out Roy's name, instead of blueblade or whatever?

5. V is not in the final panel

So, does this seem like enough to say it is possible Roy killed V, while blackwing looked on in terror from some sort of protection spell V selflessly cast on him?

Nothing in comic #886, except for the last panel where the OotS is drooling, really happened. Whether it was a shared hallucination, or whether it was only Roy's hallucination, while Haley, Belkar and Elan experienced their own phantasms, isn't clear yet.

There are a few clues in this strip that this isn't real:

1. Redcloak is wearing his old holy symbol, aka Xykon's phylactery, rather than his backup holy symbol.

2. Redcloak's eye-patch is on the wrong eye.

3. Blackwing doesn't show up with V.

4. The MitD isn't there.

These are all things that Roy wouldn't know about or might have forgotten: Which of Redcloak's eyes O-Chul gouged out, that V has a familiar, that Xykon hid his "phylactery" (really the fake) in his fortress-tomb on the Astral Plane and that Redcloak wears a different holy symbol.

However there were no clues that Xykon was an illusion, phantasm or hallucination in strip 885. None whatsoever.

[Sir_Leorik]

Haley is probably swimming in a dragon horde.


Don't you mean dragon hoard? :smallwink:

[Roland Itiative]

However there were no clues that Xykon was an illusion, phantasm or hallucination in strip 885. None whatsoever.

There were no clues in strip 885, but in retrospect, he must have been an illusion. The runes have been there on the wall since 885, why would they only activate now, rather than as soon as they entered the room?

[137beth]

V was never there. Xykon and Redcloak were never there. There were never any arrows fired, spells cast, or swords swung. Nobody is dead.

I think Durkon is dead:smallwink:

[ScubaGoomba]

Let's also not forget that V came onto the scene completely unscathed.

[JessmanCA]

There were no clues in strip 885, but in retrospect, he must have been an illusion. The runes have been there on the wall since 885, why would they only activate now, rather than as soon as they entered the room?

Maybe the runes activated when Xykon opened the door? Causing them to dream about the most recent thing they've seen - Xykon.

[Codyage]

However there were no clues that Xykon was an illusion, phantasm or hallucination in strip 885. None whatsoever.

Reread 885 and look at RC's ear. His eye patch is missing on his head.


Eye patch is missing by ear. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0885.html)

You can see in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) strip the eye patch line touches his ear. In the other one it does not.

885 Xykon and RC might be fake. If they were not, why would the REAL RC have his eye patch on the wrong eye?

[Copperdragon]

Thats actually a very good point. Its a specific illusion thats obviously made from someones mind so there is absolutely no reason for them to all see the same thing just because they are right next to each others.

I'm pretty sure that whatever Belkar sees is not involving him being dead. The entire Illusion just screams "Roy" - what the party members say, how he silences them, that Xykon shows up, how Vaarsuvius shows up and JUST has heard what Roy said, what Xykon says, how Roy defeats him.
Based on that, I am very sure that is not what Elan, Belkar or Haley would consider a "believable Illusion". They have their own.

Also note how Roy speaks at the end. He's in his personal Dreamworld (and in this state a living defending Draketooth could do whatever they wish with those intruders).

[Sir_Leorik]

There were no clues in strip 885, but in retrospect, he must have been an illusion. The runes have been there on the wall since 885, why would they only activate now, rather than as soon as they entered the room?

Absolutely. In hindsight the last panel of strip #885 is already part of the phantasm. Given the nature of the phantasm (wish fulfillment) the phantasm may have taken over in panel seven or eight, where Roy actually gets the OotS to shut up and listen to him for a change! :smallbiggrin:

[AtomicKitKat]

So if I'm reading this right, the runes basically trigger a room-wide "greatest wish" thing, like that plant Mongul used on Superman in "The Man Who Has Everything."?

[Sir_Leorik]

So if I'm reading this right, the runes basically trigger a room-wide "greatest wish" thing, like that plant Mongul used on Superman in "The Man Who Has Everything."?

Or, to use a much older reference, it works like the "lotus" plant encountered by Odysseus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine).

[VanaGalen]

Absolutely. In hindsight the last panel of strip #885 is already part of the phantasm. Given the nature of the phantasm (wish fulfillment) the phantasm may have taken over in panel seven or eight, where Roy actually gets the OotS to shut up and listen to him for a change! :smallbiggrin:

I think it's possible that the illusion started in the middle of #885 right after Roy asked Haley about the runes. Though I believe it's more likely it started at the end of #881 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html), right after they went through the gate.

I'm also not sure if the illusion is something like "greatest desire", as Belkar doesn't have his homicidal grin which could be expected under such circumstances. Haley also doesn't look very happy, neither does Elan. The fact that Elan is drooling could mean he's dreaming about sweets and snacks, but he might also be drooling simply because he's an idiot.

I believe the illusion is simply like a very realistic dream - it can be either scary or pleasant.

As for V, do you think hir ranks in spellcraft might help hir avoid the illusion runes?

[Dycedarg]

If it is a wish fulfillment trance of some sort, it seems rather likely to me that V will be able to break out of it, assuming he can track them down before the LG does. Even ignoring his higher will save and ranks in spellcraft, he's still extremely depressed due to the whole mass murderer thing. He is hardly in the mood to take some super amazing great news at face value.

[JessmanCA]

Still, I've got a feeling when they wake up, Xykon is there. That way we (and they) won't be sure if they're still enchanted or not. It'd make for more fake-out storytelling fun.

[IcyFrozen]

1. Redcloak is wearing his old holy symbol, aka Xykon's phylactery, rather than his backup holy symbol.

2. Redcloak's eye-patch is on the wrong eye.

3. Blackwing doesn't show up with V.

4. The MitD isn't there.


Solid Points. Those runes Haley ignored in a previous comic were definitely a trap of the Illusionist Girard. I'm expecting the next few comics to be what the other members are seeing in their illusions states.. Haley on a mountain of gold, Elan skipping with his buddy Roy through a land of icecream and Belkar killing Miko's horse.

[Ornithologist]

So after a through look at 885 as well as 886, I have come to the decision that the illusion starts on panel 4 of 885. It has a slight but noticeable different hue on the background wall, and I am not entirely sure that Elan of all people would be able to be quiet for that amount of time. I know that Elan playing the "quiet game" is one of Roy's favorite daydreams...

and that sounds way worse on paper...

[ellindsey]

So after a through look at 885 as well as 886, I have come to the decision that the illusion starts on panel 4 of 885. It has a slight but noticeable different hue on the background wall, and I am not entirely sure that Elan of all people would be able to be quiet for that amount of time. I know that Elan playing the "quiet game" is one of Roy's favorite daydreams...

and that sounds way worse on paper...

All panels in comic 885 have exactly the same RGB code for their background color: 181/168/149. The background color doesn't start to shift until panel 3 of 886. I do agree it is likely that much of 885 was an illusion as well, but you can't judge when the illusion started by the shift of hue.

[SaintRidley]

All panels in comic 885 have exactly the same RGB code for their background color: 181/168/149. The background color doesn't start to shift until panel 3 of 886. I do agree it is likely that much of 885 was an illusion as well, but you can't judge when the illusion started by the shift of hue.

So, I'm not so good with these background color codes and am not sure I have the programs required to figure them out. Would you be able to tell us in which panels the code changes?

Because I'm thinking that with that we might be able to figure something out about this trap. Like, for instance, if it shifts in panel 3 to panel 4, and again in panel 7 to panel 8, the shifts might indicate the spell adding a new element which forces a saving throw: Xykon remembering who they are and V arriving on the scene. Or they might indicate something else.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Actually I like this theory about the nature of the runes' dream-world:


it could also be designed to create a scenario that makes the person want to leave, if Roy honestly thinks Xykon is destroyed no reason to go after the gate

...which makes sense from a defending-the-gate perspective. This does assume that it's not meant to be a deathtrap, that the victims will somehow "wake up" and think the illusion (or etc) actually happened. Not sure how that would go down.

[martianmister]

Actually I like this theory about the nature of the runes' dream-world:



...which makes sense from a defending-the-gate perspective. This does assume that it's not meant to be a deathtrap, that the victims will somehow "wake up" and think the illusion (or etc) actually happened. Not sure how that would go down.

But someone interested in the gate wouldn't simply leave it behind.

[ellindsey]

So, I'm not so good with these background color codes and am not sure I have the programs required to figure them out. Would you be able to tell us in which panels the code changes?

Because I'm thinking that with that we might be able to figure something out about this trap. Like, for instance, if it shifts in panel 3 to panel 4, and again in panel 7 to panel 8, the shifts might indicate the spell adding a new element which forces a saving throw: Xykon remembering who they are and V arriving on the scene. Or they might indicate something else.

Comic 886:

Panel 1: 181, 168, 149
Panel 2: 181, 168, 149
Panel 3: 181, 165, 148
Panel 4: 181, 167, 154
Panel 5: 181, 167, 154
Panel 6: 181, 167, 154
Panel 7: 181, 167, 154
Panel 8: 181, 167, 154
Panel 9: 180, 166, 156
Panel 10: 180, 166, 156
Panel 11: 181, 165, 156
Panel 12: 181, 165, 156
Panel 13: 181, 165, 156
Panel 14: 181, 165, 156
Panel 15: 180, 165, 160
Panel 16: 180, 165, 160
Panel 17: 180, 165, 160
Panel 18: 180, 165, 160
Panel 19: 181, 168, 149 (back to normal, not showing the illusion anymore)

[rodneyAnonymous]

But someone interested in the gate wouldn't simply leave it behind.

Yeah, but Roy isn't exactly, protecting the gate is a side effect of defeating Xykon. Maybe someone interested in the gate would see something else that makes them want to leave. I dunno what, maybe that it's not there?

[Chronos]

Of course there were clues in 885 that it was an illusion. For instance, the encounter took place in a fortress guarded by illusionists, in a corridor covered in magical runes whose effects the heroes didn't know or care. The "Xykon" in 885 reacted to the heroes in a very out-of-character way ("You guys again?", when he's never before shown any interest in remembering them). And an encounter with the Big Bad at that point makes no sense dramatically, since it'd either mean TPK, or a deus ex machina to prevent it. Put it all together, and I'd say that "illusion" was a pretty reasonable educated guess at the time. Especially considering that many people did in fact guess that.

[SaintRidley]

Comic 886:

Panel 1: 181, 168, 149
Panel 2: 181, 168, 149
Panel 3: 181, 165, 148
Panel 4: 181, 167, 154
Panel 5: 181, 167, 154
Panel 6: 181, 167, 154
Panel 7: 181, 167, 154
Panel 8: 181, 167, 154
Panel 9: 180, 166, 156
Panel 10: 180, 166, 156
Panel 11: 181, 165, 156
Panel 12: 181, 165, 156
Panel 13: 181, 165, 156
Panel 14: 181, 165, 156
Panel 15: 180, 165, 160
Panel 16: 180, 165, 160
Panel 17: 180, 165, 160
Panel 18: 180, 165, 160
Panel 19: 181, 168, 149 (back to normal, not showing the illusion anymore)


Thank you.

So it looks like panel 2-3, right after the Energy Drain by illusory Xykon; panel 3-4, after Xykon shows that he recognizes Roy; panel 8-9, right after illusory Vaarsuvius enters the picture; panel 10-11, right after Roy succeeds with his Anti-Caster feat; and panel 14-15, right after Roy disrupts Superb Dispelling and as he disrupts Greater Teleport - hard to find specific significance to that one, but disrupting even an Epic Spell might be the significance. And of course, back to normal when we get outside the illusion.


It really does kind of seem to follow based off new developments that might force a new saving throw (possible exception with panel 14-15) - panel 19, had we stayed in the illusion, would probably have had another shift anyway as "we killed Xykon" sunk in.

Anybody else?

[Sir_Leorik]

So it looks like panel 2-3, right after the Energy Drain by illusory Xykon; panel 3-4, after Xykon shows that he recognizes Roy; panel 8-9, right after illusory Vaarsuvius enters the picture; panel 10-11, right after Roy succeeds with his Anti-Caster feat; and panel 14-15, right after Roy disrupts Superb Dispelling and as he disrupts Greater Teleport - hard to find specific significance to that one, but disrupting even an Epic Spell might be the significance. And of course, back to normal when we get outside the illusion.

It really does kind of seem to follow based off new developments that might force a new saving throw (possible exception with panel 14-15) - panel 19, had we stayed in the illusion, would probably have had another shift anyway as "we killed Xykon" sunk in.

Anybody else?

I don't know. It sounds like an interesting idea, but if we're considering that events in the phantasm that would allow a saving throw cause the palette shift, there are only two events that harm Roy: Xykon casting Energy Drain in panel two and Meteor Swarm in panel five. But most of the palette shifts occur when Roy and the OotS turn the tide of the battle in the phantasm.

[Sir_Leorik]

Still, I've got a feeling when they wake up, Xykon is there. That way we (and they) won't be sure if they're still enchanted or not. It'd make for more fake-out storytelling fun.

Also Xykon, as a lich, is immune to mind-affecting spells and spell-like abilities. (So are Malack and Durkon as Vampires.) It would be ironic if the way the OotS break free of this trap is Xykon dispelling it for Redcloak and the MitD...

[DrBurr]

Its all clearly an Illusion but in universe why does Roy think Redcloak has an eye patch? Even if V witnessed the loss of RC's eye wouldn't they just assume he'd regenerate it him being a High level Cleric and all.

[Olinser]

Which actually made me think of an entirely different scenario playing out.

Since Malack and Durkon are immune (and Clerics), if Z and Nale fall victim to the illusion, they can snap them out of it easily.

Cue them walking up on the OOTS. Nale prepares to finish them off. Z sees that V isn't there, so he doesn't really care. Malack says no, claiming that he promised Durkon to let them live (not that he necessarily cares that much - but with Tarquin gone this is the perfect excuse to finish off Nale).

So now it's Malack + Durkula v Nale, with Z possibly just sitting and watching.

[SaintRidley]

I don't know. It sounds like an interesting idea, but if we're considering that events in the phantasm that would allow a saving throw cause the palette shift, there are only two events that harm Roy: Xykon casting Energy Drain in panel two and Meteor Swarm in panel five. But most of the palette shifts occur when Roy and the OotS turn the tide of the battle in the phantasm.

By saving throw, I'm meaning a new Will save to disbelieve.

Also, Roy wouldn't be stuck with a saving throw after getting hit by Energy Drain, since it only lets you have a saving throw the next day to keep the negative levels from becoming permanent - but getting 'hit' by his first spell of the illusion would probably force a Will save to see if he disbelieves. Making that Will save would probably be enough to cover feelings of damage for the remainder of the illusion. But then again, illusions are tricky like that and difficult to pin down even when spelled out.

[Roland Itiative]

By saving throw, I'm meaning a new Will save to disbelieve.

Also, Roy wouldn't be stuck with a saving throw after getting hit by Energy Drain, since it only lets you have a saving throw the next day to keep the negative levels from becoming permanent - but getting 'hit' by his first spell of the illusion would probably force a Will save to see if he disbelieves. Making that Will save would probably be enough to cover feelings of damage for the remainder of the illusion. But then again, illusions are tricky like that and difficult to pin down even when spelled out.
I think he means that any time Roy was harmed during the illusion, he should be able to make a throw to realise that, hey, that didn't really hurt at all.

And according to the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Illusion_School), getting hit by the illusion would not grant a save automatically, only interacting with it would.

[Sir_Leorik]

By saving throw, I'm meaning a new Will save to disbelieve.

Also, Roy wouldn't be stuck with a saving throw after getting hit by Energy Drain, since it only lets you have a saving throw the next day to keep the negative levels from becoming permanent - but getting 'hit' by his first spell of the illusion would probably force a Will save to see if he disbelieves. Making that Will save would probably be enough to cover feelings of damage for the remainder of the illusion. But then again, illusions are tricky like that and difficult to pin down even when spelled out.


I think he means that any time Roy was harmed during the illusion, he should be able to make a throw to realise that, hey, that didn't really hurt at all.

And according to the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Illusion_School), getting hit by the illusion would not grant a save automatically, only interacting with it would.

Bingo. Getting attacked or hit with a damaging spell that is illusory in nature (especially a phantasm) might allow the victim of the illusion to roll a Will Save to disbelieve the illusion. This is not always true though. It really does depend on the spell or effect that creates the Illusion.

Seeing illusory Xykon and Redcloak wouldn't necessarily allow a save; getting hit by illusory Xykon's Energy Drain might allow a Will save to disbelieve.

[Ronfar]

In one of the older versions of D&D, the spell "Weird" actually did put its target into a duel with an illusionary copy of your worst enemy. That's a lot like what happened to Roy here...

And even if this wasn't an illusion, Xykon being killed is perfectly consistent with the rules of drama; he's a lich, so you have to destroy the phylactery, too, or he'll come back. Remember the end of the first book?

[Jay R]

I think that Haley's line, "If they were going to blow up, they would have done so by now" is intended to make us realize (after the fact), that the rune had in fact started working by that point, so anything seen after that is an illusion.

[Thrax]

Could the runes' purpose possibly be making the affected people think they're in combat, in order to make casters use up their spells? I mean, they're not moving but they can still talk, so they should be able to still cast spells.

[Sir_Leorik]

Could the runes' purpose possibly be making the affected people think they're in combat, in order to make casters use up their spells? I mean, they're not moving but they can still talk, so they should be able to still cast spells.

Roy's speech pattern resembles someone talking in their sleep. I think they're out for the count until they get a new Will save, someone snaps them out of it, or well, someone makes a coup de grace. :smalleek:

[Querzis]

Roy's speech pattern resembles someone talking in their sleep. I think they're out for the count until they get a new Will save, someone snaps them out of it, or well, someone makes a coup de grace. :smalleek:

Theres no reason for them to ever get a new will save. Thats why this illusion is actually much better then Phantasm or Weird, sure it doesnt kill you instantly but you only get one save and, since its your greatest desire instead of your greatest fear, I'd imagine the DC for disbelieving it is much higher. It doesnt matter if it doesnt kill you instantly, they are all helpless and anyone could coup de grace them. And even if nobody does, they will still die after a while from thirst.

[Sir_Leorik]

Theres no reason for them to ever get a new will save. Thats why this illusion is actually much better then Phantasm or Weird, sure it doesnt kill you instantly but you only get one save and, since its your greatest desire instead of your greatest fear, I'd imagine the DC for disbelieving it is much higher. It doesnt matter if it doesnt kill you instantly, they are all helpless and anyone could coup de grace them. And even if nobody does, they will still die after a while from thirst.

Except that taking damage should allow a new Will save, even non-lethal damage from V trying to slap them awake.

[Olinser]

Theres no reason for them to ever get a new will save. Thats why this illusion is actually much better then Phantasm or Weird, sure it doesnt kill you instantly but you only get one save and, since its your greatest desire instead of your greatest fear, I'd imagine the DC for disbelieving it is much higher. It doesnt matter if it doesnt kill you instantly, they are all helpless and anyone could coup de grace them. And even if nobody does, they will still die after a while from thirst.

Actually it's not just your greatest desire. It's your greatest desire achieved through unlikely, but reasonable, circumstances.

For instance, if Haley's greatest desire is to be filthy rich, then her vision wouldn't show money suddenly raining from the sky. Instead, it would show her opening up the next door, and finding the dragon in the mural of the Draketooth family sitting alive on top of its hoard. The party would then commence destroying said dragon (with V's timely reappearance probably Disintegrating it), and Haley is now filthy rich.

Nothing in Roy's vision directly contradicts anything that he knows to be true or possible. He WANTS to believe it - nothing in the vision offers him a new save.

[ZerglingOne]

Well, I think it's quite crafty to make a "greatest fantasy" mind illusion. It doesn't have to kill you outright with fear (paladins are immune to this) when it can kill you over 3 days via dehydration.

[AlexanderRM]

Not to illusions but all undead are immune to mind-affecting effect which, considering the last panel of 886, is definitly part of the spell description. Its probably some kind of more powerfull and specific version of Phantasmal Killer which target someone dreams instead of fears.

...which make me realize that, when the Linear Guild get there, Malack and Durkon will also be immune to it.


I *think*, though, that there are things in Epic magic that let you make illusions which affect undead. There's definitely something like that in some sourcebook. And I highly doubt a whole huge family of wizards, some epic level, guarding one of the keystones of reality with practically nothing but illusions, would have set it up so that a 5th-level Vampire could just walk in through everything. Probably a lot of the illusions will be nonepic... although I imagine a lot of the permanent ones would also be epic.

[Stormlock]

Illusions yeah, but not mind affecting charms and the like. It'd be like having an undead be affected by a death effect (and even Familicide didn't do that, whatever mommy dragon was, she was still talking after the spell went off.)

Even something like this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlUndead.htm
is a Necromancy spell and doesn't carry the Mind-affecting descriptor. And the Compel seed for epic spells DOES, and specificly says 'one living target'. You could probably kludge something together with the anime dead seed as well, but at that point it'd be easier to throw in the Life seed and have them resurrected against their will.

Putting that aside, setting up an epic spell as part of a permanent trap would be an insane investment. It'd make more sense for this to be some sort of homebrewed/researched level 9 spell. In which case there might be more of them floating around, but it's even less likely to affect the undead or other mindless creatures.

[ReaderAt2046]

I support the idea that what we see constitutes "Roy's illusion" and that each person is seeing the illusion that they most desire. For Roy, that's singlehandedly defeating Xykon, V coming back safe and sound, and the Belkar problem resolving itself without much concern from the party.

Dunno what Mr. Scruffy dying means - Roy must not be a cat person.


So the real pressing question is - What flavor of ice cream is Elan enjoying in his illusion that would make him drool like that? Chocolate? Strawberry? Cherry garcia? Rocky road?

I think he's drooling because he's seeing a freshly vajazzled Haley. (Isn't "vajazzled" a really neat word?)

[Kareasint]

Illusions yeah, but not mind affecting charms and the like. It'd be like having an undead be affected by a death effect (and even Familicide didn't do that, whatever mommy dragon was, she was still talking after the spell went off.)

Even something like this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlUndead.htm
is a Necromancy spell and doesn't carry the Mind-affecting descriptor. And the Compel seed for epic spells DOES, and specificly says 'one living target'. You could probably kludge something together with the anime dead seed as well, but at that point it'd be easier to throw in the Life seed and have them resurrected against their will.

Putting that aside, setting up an epic spell as part of a permanent trap would be an insane investment. It'd make more sense for this to be some sort of homebrewed/researched level 9 spell. In which case there might be more of them floating around, but it's even less likely to affect the undead or other mindless creatures.

I like the use of the word "insane" here. After all, we are talking about someone who is in a deep paranoid delusion that an entire organization is about to come after him. Paranoid enough to go to a random location in the middle of the desert and set up a permanent spell trap with very specific triggers.

This is probably an epic level spell with at least the Delude (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/delude.htm) seed . And since we are talking about a small army of casters, Girard would have been able to bring the DC way down by casting this as a ritual. This would allow him to add a lot of factors including permanent duration.

The hallway is just another trap. It was probably designed to immobilize multiple targets and hold them while alerting the defenders.

And the presence of a trap does not necessarily mean that there is something being guarded by it. The Gate could be elsewhere.

[Querzis]

Except that taking damage should allow a new Will save, even non-lethal damage from V trying to slap them awake.

...I'm really not sure thats true, cant find anywhere in the SRD where they say that (and even if they do say it in the SRD concerning illusion, this is a custom spell anyway) but even if it is true, how is that relevant? They are standing still in a labyrinth, theres no reason for any of them to take damage and anything that would like to damage them for real could coup de grace them instantly. V would not be immune to that illusion either.

Now mind you, obviously some external interference is gonna get them out of there eventually, cant imagine a TPK happening here but under normal circumstance nobody would get a new will save even if they are starving to death so that spell really come off as much more usefull then Phantasm or Weird.

[Daubechies4]

So the real pressing question is - What flavor of ice cream is Elan enjoying in his illusion that would make him drool like that?


I think he's drooling because he's seeing a freshly vajazzled Haley. (Isn't "vajazzled" a really neat word?)

Nah, I think BannedInSchool hit the nail on the head (from the #886 discussion thread):


I figure Elan just needs a significant conscious effort to not drool and the illusion is monopolizing all of his limited processing power. :smallwink:

[137beth]

Illusions yeah, but not mind affecting charms and the like. It'd be like having an undead be affected by a death effect (and even Familicide didn't do that, whatever mommy dragon was, she was still talking after the spell went off.)

Even something like this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlUndead.htm
is a Necromancy spell and doesn't carry the Mind-affecting descriptor. And the Compel seed for epic spells DOES, and specificly says 'one living target'. You could probably kludge something together with the anime dead seed as well, but at that point it'd be easier to throw in the Life seed and have them resurrected against their will.

Putting that aside, setting up an epic spell as part of a permanent trap would be an insane investment. It'd make more sense for this to be some sort of homebrewed/researched level 9 spell. In which case there might be more of them floating around, but it's even less likely to affect the undead or other mindless creatures.
Yes, you can make epic mind affecting spells which affect undead. It increases the DC of the epic spell. Bypassing immunities is something some spells do, so any reasonable DM should allow an epic spell which is mind-affecting that targets intelligent undead, with a corresponding increase to the spell's DC. Remember, you can do anything with a sufficiently powerful epic spell.

[Chad30]

I remember a video where the bad guy disconnected a cleric from his god. The only explanation given was that the DM was trying to get them to roleplay. Would an epic spell actually be able to do that?

[KillianHawkeye]

the anime dead seed

I want to ask about this, but I think too many people are already complaining about D&D becoming too anime thanks to Tome of Battle. :smallamused:

[Sky_Schemer]

Its all clearly an Illusion but in universe why does Roy think Redcloak has an eye patch? Even if V witnessed the loss of RC's eye wouldn't they just assume he'd regenerate it him being a High level Cleric and all.

1. V and O'Chul detailed their escape to the rest of the party

2. This is Roy's illusion/phantasm/dream, and he does not have a great understanding of Redcloak's spell levels or domain (no one in the Order does, really)

[Chronos]

Quoth ZerglingOne:

It doesn't have to kill you outright with fear (paladins are immune to this)...
That's a very good point. I had actually been assuming that this was a fear-based spell rather than desire-based and that Roy had just (partially) overcome his fear. But given that the Draketooths were primarily concerned about Soon and his paladins tromping all over the place, it wouldn't make sense to use fear-based traps. I'm now convinced (like almost everyone else was days ago) that this spell really is based on the targets' desires.