Malack, Durkon, and Nale prediction.

[gallagher]

I am of the opinion that Malack is going to eliminate Nale while they are separated from Tarquin, for a couple of reasons.

1) Malack and Tarquin run on an ill-defined "business" relationship. Tarquin is upstairs taking care of whatever "business" he has to with his flying kobold. Malack has his own agenda (as we have seen) and is continually getting pushed closer and closer to the edge. This way, he can show Tarquin (who hasnt shown much sympathy towards Malack's loss) the pain of losing a child and having to still work with the person who murdered that child.

2) Tarquin's biggest plan is seeing Elan succeed long enough to make for a great story of father v son and good v evil. Malack is likely in on this plan, but Nale isnt. Nale will likely try and eliminate his brother and Malack would step in to help preserve Tarquin's interests.

3) This would keep Durkon in the Order's plan, though the party will have to make peace with his vampirism.

4) It would make for an exciting fight scene, where Nale almost won (again) but is turned away by Malack (again)

5) Nale can't possibly coexist within Tarquins plans. Nale wants control, he wants to lead, and Tarquin plans on handing the reins over to Malack when he dies. Nale also wants to kill Elan, whom Tarquin also has plans for. Nale must be eliminated or he will forever be a metaphorical wrench in Tarquins allegorical works.

6) Malack promised to not harm Durkon's friends.

So what do you guys think, solid logic?

[Gift Jeraff]

Couldn't they have done that back at the palace?

[Aldrakan]

Couldn't they have done that back at the palace?

I think that Malack felt more in control of the situation back then. Tarquin outright said Malack could kill him and only Nale's info appeared to save him. Since then Tarquin has gone out of his way to save Nale's life, and has placed Malack under Nale's command while ignoring Malack's attempt to speak with him, I assume about his promise not to kill the Order. He's off balance, has a new spawn to look after, and his oldest ally is ignoring him.

Durkon is vulnerable to easy death without a coffin, and Malack probably doesn't want to take him into danger at all, much less on behalf of someone he hates against people he's promised to spare.

I think between that and perhaps an increasing suspicion that Tarquin intends to let Nale escape once this is done (I don't have a lot of evidence for this, I just kind of get that impression), Malack's quite likely to try and take him out if the opportunity arises.

[Stormlock]

It's certainly what I'd do in Malack's shoes. He got plausible deniability to spare too. Pyramid traps and the Order could both have 'killed' Nale for Malack. Though explaining why he didn't bring the corpse back to rez would be a little iffy. OTOH maybe he won't bother with a deception at all and just straight up tell Tarquin he murdered his son, like Redcloak did with Tsukiko. Considering he was going to let him before anyways, I doubt Tarquin would be THAT put out by the whole affair.

[Mike Havran]

Malack is Lawful as hell, so he won't attempt to kill Nale and then fudge it on dungeon traps or the like. He will kill when Nale either attacks him in some way or it will be proven that he's useless to Tarquin's plans.

But when Nale gets into that corridor and starts doing insane things, it would be the call for Malack to start with his revenge.

[Vinsfeld]

6) Tarquin promised to not harm Durkon's friends.


As far as I can remember, Malack was the one who promised not to harm Durkon's friends. Tarquin only promised Malack that he would not harm Durkon.

[Obscure Blade]

I wouldn't be surprised if Malack lets the Order or something else kill Nale, and contributes mainly by neglect. He'll do the Lawful rules-lawyer thing and technically not kill Nale, but just not help or retreat at a crucial moment when some clerical magic could tip the balance.

Nale seems to be forgetting that when he's planning to attack the Order with 4 casters "crushing them with magical power", 2 of these casters quite likely have zero loyalty to him at best and are going to be more concerned with avoiding damage to themselves. Malack's hardly going to be enthusiastic about fighting for Nale, and he'll likely keep Durkon well back out of danger.

That said, I doubt that Nale will die permanently here - Tarquin may still want him alive and have him brought back. As well, he and the LG are the tools of the Three Fiends, and they may well arrange his resurrection if they need to. Actually it would be kind of interesting if he did die and the Fiends took the opportunity to deal with him more directly while he's dead, bring him firmly under their control.

[hoff]

Tarquin is too smart to try to take control of the gate to himself. He knows such all-powerful beings are best kept locked by the good guys as long as possible. In the end he will help the order.

[Olinser]

I am of the opinion that Malack is going to eliminate Nale while they are separated from Tarquin, for a couple of reasons.

1) Malack and Tarquin run on an ill-defined "business" relationship. Tarquin is upstairs taking care of whatever "business" he has to with his flying kobold. Malack has his own agenda (as we have seen) and is continually getting pushed closer and closer to the edge. This way, he can show Tarquin (who hasnt shown much sympathy towards Malack's loss) the pain of losing a child and having to still work with the person who murdered that child.

2) Tarquin's biggest plan is seeing Elan succeed long enough to make for a great story of father v son and good v evil. Malack is likely in on this plan, but Nale isnt. Nale will likely try and eliminate his brother and Malack would step in to help preserve Tarquin's interests.

3) This would keep Durkon in the Order's plan, though the party will have to make peace with his vampirism.

4) It would make for an exciting fight scene, where Nale almost won (again) but is turned away by Malack (again)

5) Nale can't possibly coexist within Tarquins plans. Nale wants control, he wants to lead, and Tarquin plans on handing the reins over to Malack when he dies. Nale also wants to kill Elan, whom Tarquin also has plans for. Nale must be eliminated or he will forever be a metaphorical wrench in Tarquins allegorical works.

6) Tarquin promised to not harm Durkon's friends.

So what do you guys think, solid logic?

While it could happen, I think it's more likely that Malack is going to be the one biting the dust.

Tarquin has cut him loose, because as an EXTREMELY genre-savvy villain with knowledge of plot twists, he has realized that Malack's days are now numbered.

I challenge you to name one single story where a villain turning the Hero's best friend into a vampire ended well for the vampire doing the turning.

Tarquin sees that Malack is now screwed by the Power of Plot, and he doesn't want to be anywhere near him when it goes down. Nale is an acceptable loss.

[gallagher]

As far as I can remember, Malack was the one who promised not to harm Durkon's friends. Tarquin only promised Malack that he would not harm Durkon.

Woops, you are right, and that is what I intended to type, wonder how that happened

[Dycedarg]

I wouldn't be surprised if Malack lets the Order or something else kill Nale, and contributes mainly by neglect. He'll do the Lawful rules-lawyer thing and technically not kill Nale, but just not help or retreat at a crucial moment when some clerical magic could tip the balance.

While it's true Malack has little motivation to go out of his way to keep Nale alive, I don't think his plan is to stand by and let the order kill him. As he said himself to Belkar, "My god teaches me to kill that which I would see dead, not to send proxies to do it in my stead." My assumption is that his primary motivation for wanting to see this conflict ended as soon as possible is that the sooner it's over the sooner the "business" between Tarquin and his son is concluded so Malack can get back to killing him.

Edit: Not to imply that he won't let the Order kill Nale if things go south, but I don't think he'll intentionally cause them to lose.

[gallagher]

While it's true Malack has little motivation to go out of his way to keep Nale alive, I don't think his plan is to stand by and let the order kill him. As he said himself to Belkar, "My god teaches me to kill that which I would see dead, not to send proxies to do it in my stead." My assumption is that his primary motivation for wanting to see this conflict ended as soon as possible is that the sooner it's over the sooner the "business" between Tarquin and his son is concluded so Malack can get back to killing him.

Edit: Not to imply that he won't let the Order kill Nale if things go south, but I don't think he'll intentionally cause them to lose.

1) Tarquin's "business" might have something involved where Nale must fail, hence why he is sending Malack to ensure it.

2) Malack could turn around and use the "business" line on Tarquin

[gallagher]

And as to why Tarquin's business would involve killing one of his sons:

Tarquin is playing a dangerous game where he is trying to load the dice. As an incredibly genre savvy character, he understands the risks of having a power hungry son who wants to take over vs the good son that ideally would eventually try to topple him to set up the greatest story ever.

Nale is not strong, intelligent, or patient enough to be able to beat Tarquin even if he were on his deathbed. He can, however, ruin everything by killing Elan. Tarquin knows that V is nowhere to be seen and presumes him dead. Tarquin knows that Durkon is now on his side. So with no spellcasting help, Tarquin would be pinning his hopes on a rogue, single-classed fighter, and a drained halfling against 3 full casters and his murderous, hasty offspring.

if Tarquin wants his grand ending, he has to eliminate Nale

[Knight.Anon]

I think Durkon is still on the Order of the Sticks side as much as he can be.

He would have to kill his friends if he gets a direct order, until the White Worm sets him free but short of a direct order he has a free hand. I think D is furious about being turned into a thing that he despises. His rage will be expressed in a Lawful Evil way now because he's an (ahem) changed man.

I'm really interested in what D has his fiends do once they get out of sight.

[gallagher]

I think Durkon is still on the Order of the Sticks side as much as he can be.

He would have to kill his friends if he gets a direct order, until the White Worm sets him free but short of a direct order he has a free hand. I think D is furious about being turned into a thing that he despises. His rage will be expressed in a Lawful Evil way now because he's an (ahem) changed man.

I'm really interested in what D has his fiends do once they get out of sight.

I dont know, he has been acting like he has an infant's mind since his undeath. While the rules of DnD may state otherwise, in this story his only resemblance to the Durkon of old is his appearance and prepared spells (until he gets released from Malack's control)

[Raineh Daze]

While it could happen, I think it's more likely that Malack is going to be the one biting the dust.

Tarquin has cut him loose, because as an EXTREMELY genre-savvy villain with knowledge of plot twists, he has realized that Malack's days are now numbered.

I challenge you to name one single story where a villain turning the Hero's best friend into a vampire ended well for the vampire doing the turning.

Tarquin sees that Malack is now screwed by the Power of Plot, and he doesn't want to be anywhere near him when it goes down. Nale is an acceptable loss.

And if Malack goes down before Durkon learns Protection from Sunlight, this whole plotline has become full of even more redundancies and dead-ends. :smallyuk:

[rodneyAnonymous]

And if Malack goes down before Durkon learns Protection from Sunlight, this whole plotline has become full of even more redundancies and dead-ends. :smallyuk:

Um, PFS already served the narrative purpose of explaining why Malack was able to drink tea on the balcony in the midday sun, and vampire!Durkon could just travel at night only, like 99.99999999% of other vampires. Not sure what you mean.

[Raineh Daze]

Travel at night only.

Currently in the middle of a desert continent.

That's a lot of fortuitous shelters for someone doing a lot of travelling, anyway.

Or maybe a parasol would work? :smallconfused:

[137beth]

He's a cleric. Once he knows the spell exists, he can prepare it. Thus he is already capable of casting PFD.

[TRH]

Or maybe a parasol would work? :smallconfused:

The way he acts right now, I really could picture Durkula going "Gate? What Gate?" :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

The way he acts right now, I really could picture Durkula going "Gate? What Gate?" :smallbiggrin:

At least until he hits 17th level and learns to cast Gate:smalltongue:

[gallagher]

At least until he hits 17th level and learns to cast Gate:smalltongue:
Gate spell, what Gate spell?

[Stormlock]

At least until he hits 17th level and learns to cast Gate:smalltongue:

That might be a while, he'd have to slay a few (dozen) dragons by himself to earn that kind of xp now.

[Olinser]

He's a cleric. Once he knows the spell exists, he can prepare it. Thus he is already capable of casting PFD.

Both Protection from Daylight and Mass Death Ward had to be researched.

If Malack doesn't have to teach it to him (or at least give him a scroll with instructions), I'm going to be shocked.

[Toper]

I challenge you to name one single story where a villain turning the Hero's best friend into a vampire ended well for the vampire doing the turning.
For what it's worth, although you ask for a rather precise situation, that exact thing happened in (I think) City of Ashes, and both the vampirized best friend and the vampire assailant were fine.

In any case, I do think Tarquin's interest in this whole thing is in pitting the brothers against each other for some reason, and he'll probably step in personally to make sure neither son gets killed -- I don't think he'd leave that job to Malack.

[dps]

I am of the opinion that Malack is going to eliminate Nale while they are separated from Tarquin, for a couple of reasons.

1) Malack and Tarquin run on an ill-defined "business" relationship. Tarquin is upstairs taking care of whatever "business" he has to with his flying kobold. Malack has his own agenda (as we have seen) and is continually getting pushed closer and closer to the edge. This way, he can show Tarquin (who hasnt shown much sympathy towards Malack's loss) the pain of losing a child and having to still work with the person who murdered that child.

2) Tarquin's biggest plan is seeing Elan succeed long enough to make for a great story of father v son and good v evil. Malack is likely in on this plan, but Nale isnt. Nale will likely try and eliminate his brother and Malack would step in to help preserve Tarquin's interests.

3) This would keep Durkon in the Order's plan, though the party will have to make peace with his vampirism.

4) It would make for an exciting fight scene, where Nale almost won (again) but is turned away by Malack (again)

5) Nale can't possibly coexist within Tarquins plans. Nale wants control, he wants to lead, and Tarquin plans on handing the reins over to Malack when he dies. Nale also wants to kill Elan, whom Tarquin also has plans for. Nale must be eliminated or he will forever be a metaphorical wrench in Tarquins allegorical works.

6) Malack promised to not harm Durkon's friends.

So what do you guys think, solid logic?

1) Not really seeing Malack killing Nale to teach Tarquin a lesson, no.

2) This one I can see as a reasonable possibility.

3) I don't see any connection between Vamped!Durkon's relationship with the OotS, and Malack killing Nale.

4) Like the magic duel in strip 456?

5) Agree.

6) Agree.

[Breccia]

I like your line of thinking, OP. A place such as this illisionist's pyramid, it would be very easy to make it look like an accident.

Or, to let the OotS beat him to within an inch of his life, then cause light wounds him the rest of the way.

Either way:
a) he would almost certainly not vampirize Nale, for the same reason he did vamp Durkon, and
b) he would have to take out the witnesses, namely, Zz'dtri. Either personally, or by making sure he's dead before killing Nale.

[Belkar<3]

Tarquin is too smart to try to take control of the gate to himself. He knows such all-powerful beings are best kept locked by the good guys as long as possible. In the end he will help the order.

Absolutely. That's what he did with the kingdoms, after all.
Edit: I actually disagree with the last part, he wants Elan in his story and will have to make it look like he is ruthless and hateful. Though still genre-savvy.

[Olinser]

I like your line of thinking, OP. A place such as this illisionist's pyramid, it would be very easy to make it look like an accident.

Or, to let the OotS beat him to within an inch of his life, then cause light wounds him the rest of the way.

Either way:
a) he would almost certainly not vampirize Nale, for the same reason he did vamp Durkon, and
b) he would have to take out the witnesses, namely, Zz'dtri. Either personally, or by making sure he's dead before killing Nale.

You know, I never really got the impression that Z cares that much about Nale. Z is pursuing his own personal vendetta against V, and Nale has twice put him in a position that Z was in a 1 on 1 fight against V (it's not Nale's fault that Z couldn't close the deal, after all). Nale is useful in that he allows Z to pursue his revenge, but Tarquin and Malack are much more likely to actually help him accomplish it. I would not be surprised if Z just sits on the sidelines and lets Malack kill Nale.

[Finwe]

What evidence is there that Tarquin cares about Nale's survival? He was ready to let Malack kill Nale back in the city, and only stopped Malack because Nale claimed to have useful information.

Right now, Malack has three primary goals:
1. Help Tarquin accomplish his plan with the gates
2. Ensure the survival of his 'son'
3. Kill Nale as revenge for the loss of his children.

Most likely, he will want to keep Nale and Z alive at least until the Order is neutralized so that he minimizes the risk to Durkula. Once Malack believes the pyramid to be secured, I see no reason why he should allow Nale to continue living, since his business obligations would have been taken care of.

[Gift Jeraff]

What evidence is there that Tarquin cares about Nale's survival? He was ready to let Malack kill Nale back in the city, and only stopped Malack because Nale claimed to have useful information.

Right now, Malack has three primary goals:
1. Help Tarquin accomplish his plan with the gates
2. Ensure the survival of his 'son'
3. Kill Nale as revenge for the loss of his children.

Most likely, he will want to keep Nale and Z alive at least until the Order is neutralized so that he minimizes the risk to Durkula. Once Malack believes the pyramid to be secured, I see no reason why he should allow Nale to continue living, since his business obligations would have been taken care of.

Securing the pyramid is not why Malack let Nale live. Nale still has to get the ritual he promised, unless Malack finds out he was BSing, possibly through the illusion runes.

[Finwe]

Securing the pyramid is not why Malack let Nale live. Nale still has to get the ritual he promised, unless Malack finds out he was BSing, possibly through the illusion runes.

Hmm, you're correct: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html

Malack and Tarquin believe that Nale knows how to get the ritual. So Malack is going to let Nale live until the ritual is recovered, or until it becomes clear that Nale has no intention of actually handing over the ritual.

[gallagher]

Hmm, you're correct: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html

Malack and Tarquin believe that Nale knows how to get the ritual. So Malack is going to let Nale live until the ritual is recovered, or until it becomes clear that Nale has no intention of actually handing over the ritual.

I think that even without his genre-savvy'ness, Tarquin knows that Nale has zero chance of getting the ritual. He knows at the very least that the ritual is being guarded by a high priest of an angry goblin deity and an epic level lich sorc.

Nale has no chance of taking it from them, and nobody would let Nale in on any part of the ritual after meeting him for a few minutes. Nale's main strategic value is to deflect the negative aftermath of the upcoming events away from Tarquin.

At least that is my interpretation

[gallagher]

I could also see Tarquin's plan being to set Nale up to fail. Tarquin could be sending Nale to go down in front of Elan, if only to make for a better story. Tarquin wants this to be the best story of all time. Nale has to go down eventually anyway if Tarquin wants Elan to be successful. Whether Malack kills him or just lets him die, Nale cannot succeed.

Nale has been a constant obstacle throughout the comic and a dramatic turn against Nale could serve to add to the story. It would effect Elan personally and Tarquin knows that Elan would need to toughen up to strike Tarquin down.

Tarquin knows Nale loves himself and revenge. It would be in character for Nale to challenge Elan to a one-on-one duel for all the marbles just so he can finally look superior to his goody-two-shoes bardic brother. Tarquin also knows that Elan is very genre-savvy (chip off the old block). Elan would also be in character by jumping the gun and challenging Nale for the purpose of protecting his friends.

Malack would want to just sit back and watch.

[David Argall]

Male is more likely to off Malack than the reverse. More likely Malack buys it by some other means, but Nale is highly likely to survive longer than Malack.
Villains who appear in middle books have a strong tendency to die in the same book they appear in. They rarely make it to the final chapter. Those who show up right away, and don't get snuffed right away, are almost immortal until the grand climax. This is not absolute of course, but the odds are heavy. Malack could be dead in a dozen pages. Nale will be around for over 200.

[Ellye]

Male is more likely to off Malack than the reverse. More likely Malack buys it by some other means, but Nale is highly likely to survive longer than Malack.
Villains who appear in middle books have a strong tendency to die in the same book they appear in. They rarely make it to the final chapter. Those who show up right away, and don't get snuffed right away, are almost immortal until the grand climax. This is not absolute of course, but the odds are heavy. Malack could be dead in a dozen pages. Nale will be around for over 200.Though if Nale is to die before the end of the story, than I find it quite likely that it will happen while the Order is still on the Western Continent.
I mean, this is the first time we have some actual depth added to Nale, and we finally found out something substantial about his past. Considering that he's a secondary villain, I believe this points at his death being close.

Though I do hope he stays alive - and I also hope that he becomes a much more serious version of himself. I don't think we can go back to "silly goofy plans Nale" after getting to know a bit more about him and his story.

[gallagher]

Male is more likely to off Malack than the reverse. More likely Malack buys it by some other means, but Nale is highly likely to survive longer than Malack.
Villains who appear in middle books have a strong tendency to die in the same book they appear in. They rarely make it to the final chapter. Those who show up right away, and don't get snuffed right away, are almost immortal until the grand climax. This is not absolute of course, but the odds are heavy. Malack could be dead in a dozen pages. Nale will be around for over 200.

Rich is good at keeping us on our toes, so I am not that convinced by what other stories normally do. I am more swayed by the fact that Malack has a lot of use for Tarquin than Nale does, Nale gets in the way of Tarquins plans often enough that Tarquin is likely to plan against him, and two vampire clerics are much stronger than a transmuter and a fighter/rogue/enchanter with ego issues.

Heck, Z is only in on this to fight V. Who is to say that Z wouldnt be okay with Nale biting it?

[veti]

I've been wondering if Malack might not prefer to vamp Nale himself.

At one stroke, he'd be revenged on Nale, and would make his point extremely forcefully to Tarquin.

On the other hand, there's a good chance Tarquin might regard that as going too far. And then Malack would have to put up with Nale indefinitely, since he seems to feel that sort of responsibility for his spawn. So I don't think it's likely, but it would be - poetic.