disregarding racial hit die

[Yogibear41]

If someone wanted to play a creature that began with racial hit die, but didn't want to have to waist a bunch of levels to gain said hit die what should be done to counter balance starting them at level 1 with only a class level.


For example, what if someone wanted to play an incarnate clay golem but didn't want to have to take 10 or 15 racial hit die levels and just wanted to start at level 1 as say a fighter or something?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Tell him to play a (clay) Warforged instead.

Racial HD are a balancing factor, same as Level Adjustment, and they're absolutely not optional.

If a player abhors racial HD, I've found level adjustment equal to half the racial HD is a fair exchange. So a loss of ten racial HD would be an extra +5 LA.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

*Nods* Consider, for instance, the Sand Giant. Now, Sandy's got an LA of 4, which is pretty huge.

Except, he's also got:
+16 STR
+10 CON
+10 DEX
+6 WIS
+2 CHA
+11 Natural Armour
Large Size
Burrow Speed.

So, comparing this guy at 1st level to a regular fighter at 5th... this guy's got less HP, but a higher attack bonus, way higher damage, and massively higher armour.

So, yeah, if I were building a melee beatstick, I'd take that for 4 LA.

[Yogibear41]

Seems kinda fair, Clay Golem 11 dit die halved = 5.5 LA -2 for incarnate = 3.5 round down to 3 for

+14 Str
-2 Dex
Cha has to = 3
Large sized
+9 Natural Armor

super low charisma could potentially be a major weakness though

[awa]

like everything it has to be taken on a case by case basis
wizards of the coast did a poor job balancing most monsters for play stacking la on top of hd but if you just remove the hd you will in many cases be going to far the other way.

he wants to be size large try refluffing a half ogre

[danzibr]

When I DM I house rule half for racial HD and LA. Totally ditching it can make it too op but by itself it makes them too weak.

[Telonius]

I'd definitely take it case by case. Something like a Gnoll? Net +2 on stats, +1 natural armor, for +1 LA. That sounds okay. Not great by any means, but balanced. But tack on 2 RHD of humanoid? You've gone from a halfway-decent (if uninspiring) melee race, to something made of suck. I'd definitely allow a player to drop the RHD if they really want to play one.

[Flickerdart]

The best example of horrible consequences of dropping RHD are Black Ethergaunts for 16 RHD and +4 LA, you normally get a race with +20 Intelligence and 17th level Wizard casting, plus free Ethereal travel, spell immunity, and an enslaving gaze. Hell yeah I'll take that for +4 LA.

[Yogibear41]

I've heard people say that if the retraining rules are in use you can retrain racial hit die, in that case you could get like 30th level wizard casting at an ecl of 20 :smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

I've heard people say that if the retraining rules are in use you can retrain racial hit die, in that case you could get like 30th level wizard casting at an ecl of 20 :smalleek:
You can only retrain things that you had a choice of taking, which doesn't apply to RHD.

[awa]

when you retrain you must make valid choices and if you are a race with racial hit dice the only valid choice is those same racial hit dice.

[Marnath]

Well, one time there was posted the trick of getting negative leveled down to one hitdie and then exchanging that for a class level but I can't remember whether the playground ruled that legal or decided that you must take the RHD back when you get a chance. Anyone remember which it is?

[Flickerdart]

Well, one time there was posted the trick of getting negative leveled down to one hitdie and then exchanging that for a class level but I can't remember whether the playground ruled that legal or decided that you must take the RHD back when you get a chance. Anyone remember which it is?
This is legit - the various ways to restore levels such as Restoration give you back XP, not levels, so you can take whatever.

[Yogibear41]

Well if you can use those sort of shenanigans to get it in the long run why not just do it to begin with and save yourself the trouble.

[The Viscount]

Many feel that dropping HD with negative levels is contrary to the spirit of things, and it is often used for cheese, so people are understandably wary.

[nyjastul69]

Well, one time there was posted the trick of getting negative leveled down to one hitdie and then exchanging that for a class level but I can't remember whether the playground ruled that legal or decided that you must take the RHD back when you get a chance. Anyone remember which it is?

FWIW the playground can't rule anything legal.

[Ace Nex]

Be careful when dealing with racial hit die. A black ethergaunt has 16 racial HD and a LA of 4. That means (16/2=8+4=12) that at 13th level you'll be casting as an 18th level wizard with a 30+ int on top of all the other goodies that come with that race. 13th level characters dealing with spheres of annihilation, gate, and a whole host of other nasty goodies they shouldn't have. As the DM, make sure you know EVERYTHING about the race he wants to play and how it synergizes with the class. By understanding his character, you can effectively counter it while keeping all the other characters engaged as well. It's no fun with the half-golem/dragon Yuan-ti kills the dungeon boss in a single hit and no one else gets to do anything.

[Yogibear41]

I will be a player for this not a DM, I had an idea for a incarnate clay golem Savant (class from dragon compendium/magazine) its far from optimized but I didn't want to have to deal with a ton of racial hit die levels. And was looking for some ideas that I could sweet talk my DM into for future use lol.

[Fyermind]

Savage progressions will let you play it from a lower level...

[danzibr]

Oh btw has anyone mentioned Black Ethergaunts? Now that'd just be silly with no RHD. :P

[awa]

several have mentioned the ethergaunt