Building a multiclass Vampire. (Fighter/Rogue?)

[rafaruggi]

Hello, my friends!

I'm playing a long-term D&D 3.5 campaign (almost 3 years now) that is finally coming to an end. So far, I've played with 2 characters, a spellthief that died a while ago and a old and wise bard, that is thinking about retirement now that he was able to cure his wife from a wicked disease, using the Holy Book of Pelor =D.

The DM informed me that I could play with Eric (my spellthief) again, If Willas (the bald bard) was really going to retire and live his final days with his woman. Eric would have been brought from hell (he had a pact with a demon) by an old nemesis, a vampire. This vampire killed the demon, releasing Eric from his pact, and transformed him into a vampire.

The thing is, now I have to build Eric's sheet again. And I don't necessarily need to be a spellthief, according to the DM. I thought about making a sorcerer or a rogue, since that's kinda close to the spellthief (a class I never really liked), but I was also presented with the option of making a multiclass Rogue/Fighter. I'm attracted to this, but I also don't have the slightest idea on how to build a multiclass character like that.

I would like advice on what feats to take, how many levels of which class (keep in mind he's level 12. A maximum of 6 levels of Fighter, but could be less and more of rogue), which feats, etc.

I'm trying to limit everything to Player's Handbook and Complete Adventurer/Arcane/Champion/Divine etc, but feel free to use any books.

Thank you!

(Also, my attribute dice were: 16, 14, 12, 10, 10. Just 5 because there's no Con, lol. We are using the vampire template Nosferatu, from Ravelonft. That means +4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Int and +6 Cha. I think that's all!)

[Muggins]

How long is this new campaign after the last one? You might be able to convince your DM to allow the Vampire Lord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template, from one of WotC's web supplements. It actually makes that +8 LA worth it, and the charisma bonus would be nice if you're looking for sorcerer levels.

Speaking of which, a Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellthief Sniper 5 with the Master Spellthief feat could work quite well and fits within your current level. 8th level spells, a bunch of sneak attacks and a fair amount of skill points.

[rafaruggi]

That mix between spellthief and sorcerer is actually very interesting, Muggins, but the Vampire template is set. It's Nosferatu.

Also, I have 8 attribute points to distribute as I wish, but I can't go higher than 24 in anything.

I'll take a look at that mix you said.

Edit: Also, I don't know if I understood your question since english is not my first language, but it's the same campaing. Eric died, and Willas found the group and started fighting for a common cause.

[Muggins]

Well, the Vampire Lord template has flavour text which requires a Vampire of more than 100 years and a number of thralls. It was worth a shot.

Without Constitution and some big hit dice, it's quite easy to put your highest in Charisma, then Dexterity, then ... well, if you want more skill points, Intelligence. Otherwise just put your last above-average ability score in Strength, since holding more stuff is always helpful.

Finding Ray feats is useful to improve your effectiveness in combat - I think they're a valid weapon for Weapon Focus. Check the feats section in Complete Arcane.

[DMVerdandi]

Hello, my friends!

I'm playing a long-term D&D 3.5 campaign (almost 3 years now) that is finally coming to an end. So far, I've played with 2 characters, a spellthief that died a while ago and a old and wise bard, that is thinking about retirement now that he was able to cure his wife from a wicked disease, using the Holy Book of Pelor =D.

The DM informed me that I could play with Eric (my spellthief) again, If Willas (the bald bard) was really going to retire and live his final days with his woman. Eric would have been brought from hell (he had a pact with a demon) by an old nemesis, a vampire. This vampire killed the demon, releasing Eric from his pact, and transformed him into a vampire.

The thing is, now I have to build Eric's sheet again. And I don't necessarily need to be a spellthief, according to the DM. I thought about making a sorcerer or a rogue, since that's kinda close to the spellthief (a class I never really liked), but I was also presented with the option of making a multiclass Rogue/Fighter. I'm attracted to this, but I also don't have the slightest idea on how to build a multiclass character like that.

I would like advice on what feats to take, how many levels of which class (keep in mind he's level 12. A maximum of 6 levels of Fighter, but could be less and more of rogue), which feats, etc.

I'm trying to limit everything to Player's Handbook and Complete Adventurer/Arcane/Champion/Divine etc, but feel free to use any books.

Thank you!

(Also, my attribute dice were: 16, 14, 12, 10, 10. Just 5 because there's no Con, lol. We are using the vampire template Nosferatu, from Ravelonft. That means +4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Int and +6 Cha. I think that's all!)

Well, multiclassing rogue and fighter doesn't really give that much punch unless the levels multi-classed are low. Going 15+Fighter levels isn't really going to benefit from having a few rogue levels in there. Rogue gets stronger from Primarily Skill point progression, and secondarily Sneak attack progression.
Fighter progresses none of that.

Meanwhile dipping for two levels of fighter in the beginning and switching to rogue may help tremendously. They get martial weapons proficiency for free, which helps with your sneak damage, and a few more bonus feats. Since DND is very feat intensive for non-magical characters, those choices may be very helpful.


Unfortunately It doesn't seem like you had the option to gestalt. That would have been ideal, So I will offer what minimal advice that I can.

Now, there ARE alternative class features for both classes that could make your situation a lot easier.

1. Thug + Sneak Attack Fighter.
This is if you are going to have more of a hard hitting character. If sneak attack damage is your main feature that you want to emphasize then the the combination with the Thug variant (Gives more skills and 4 skill points per level. Found in SRD) and the Sneak attack Alternative class feature (Trades Bonus Fighter Feats for sneak attack) Might be what you are looking for.

If you wanted to be a more combat heavy rogue, this is the means to do so. You don't have the same abilities of evasion as a regular rogue, But you do have full BAB, which is actually more important. That means your attacks hit more often, and you get more attacks faster. Not only that, but buying the "two weapon" tree becomes far easier and faster.

Dipping Factotum 1 and Spirit Lion totem barbarian at level one can net you some awesome stuff. Taking Able Learner at the start nets you all skills on your skill list, And the barbarian dip gets you pounce.

Factotum 1/ Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Sneak Attack Thug 18
In combat it is going to be FAR stronger than the general rogue in combat.

2. Warblade
If you can use TOB, I would much rather choose this though. Load up on diamond mind maneuvers, wear black, kick butt. If you want shadow hand maneuvers, simply spend a feat to get the skills.
Roguishness is in the roleplay really. That's what complete scoundrel was all about you knon.

3. Wizard.
Totally... This one....
Once again a first level dip into factotum with able learner for all skills.
After that, take levels of wizard. Your INT focus should net you more than enough skill points to take for stuff that can't be solved by spells. If you want more, Pick up Item familiar. Make it a ring, so no one can take it easily.

For ultimate roguery, take EVERY shadow subschool spell, and use them alot.
For damage, use the Arcane strike feat. Also take the Spontaneous divination and Martial wizard feats.

Once again, dress in leathers, Carry daggers and get two weapon fighting feats if possible. Sounds like a rogue to me. Just play it like a beguiler with more spells.

4. Beguiler.
Option 3 with less spells and more skill points.

[graymachine]

Well, the 6 level template on a 12th level character is eating you alive. You're too far behind on casting progression to really consider a full caster, unless you know you are going into Epic. That narrows things down a bit. You might want to consider getting your DM to let you be a lower LA undead if their heart is set on the character being undead; Necropolitan comes to mind simply for the 0 LA undead traits. As or your class as things stand, I would heavily focus on the rogue; even setting aside how well rogue meshes with the vampire template, sneak attack is one of the faster damage-progressors, so you won't be hurt so bad for lacking levels. As for fighter, even if it didn't suck, you simply don't have the hit points for it; even with the d12, you only have 6 levels to draw hp from, so on average you would have 39 hp, lacking a CON score.

See if you can get approved for LA buy-off; starting at 10th level would be well worth it. Or possibly vampire racial levels, although most DMs are too on-the-ball to allow that.

[rafaruggi]

Well, the 6 level template on a 12th level character is eating you alive. You're too far behind on casting progression to really consider a full caster, unless you know you are going into Epic. That narrows things down a bit. You might want to consider getting your DM to let you be a lower LA undead if their heart is set on the character being undead; Necropolitan comes to mind simply for the 0 LA undead traits. As or your class as things stand, I would heavily focus on the rogue; even setting aside how well rogue meshes with the vampire template, sneak attack is one of the faster damage-progressors, so you won't be hurt so bad for lacking levels. As for fighter, even if it didn't suck, you simply don't have the hit points for it; even with the d12, you only have 6 levels to draw hp from, so on average you would have 39 hp, lacking a CON score.

See if you can get approved for LA buy-off; starting at 10th level would be well worth it. Or possibly vampire racial levels, although most DMs are too on-the-ball to allow that.

I'm starting at 12th level. I'm not exactly familiar with level-adjustment rules since even though I've been playing D&D for more than two years now, I just played these two characters, never built an NPC, or a monster, etc. But I have 12 class-levels to work with.

[Gavinfoxx]

Is your "effective character level"

12?

Or 18?

What level would a Human start at? How many class levels do your fellow humans in the party have, at game start?

Your goal is to be the same effective character level as them, so you need to know what level / xp total they are at. Then we can tell you whether your idea will work or not.

[rafaruggi]

Is your "effective character level"

12?

Or 18?

What level would a Human start at? How many class levels do your fellow humans in the party have, at game start?

Your goal is to be the same effective character level as them, so you need to know what level / xp total they are at. Then we can tell you whether your idea will work or not.

My effective character level would be 18, then. My fellow humans range from level 16 to 14, but the GM has allowed me to start at level 12 anyway.

Also, I like a lot of the ideas that I have seen here, but I'd like a little bit less tweaking, and I should try to stay in the more common classes/PrC.

Edit: I have also been considering playing a Warmage, since Eric's "mentor" in his previous life was a Warmage, and I like the class...

[Gavinfoxx]

Does he even know that you are starting as a level 18 character? This is often not obvious. Tell him, "So 12 character levels? You are okay with me starting as a level 18 character in a group of level 12s through 14s then, right? That is exactly what you intended, not for me to be an equivalent of level 12, then?"

He probably meant for you to be ECL 12, which means you need to scrap the concept entirely.

[rafaruggi]

Does he even know that you are starting as a level 18 character? This is often not obvious. Tell him, "So 12 character levels? You are okay with me starting as a level 18 character in a group of level 12s through 14s then, right? That is exactly what you intended, not for me to be an equivalent of level 12, then?"

He probably meant for you to be ECL 12, which means you need to scrap the concept entirely.

I'm pretty sure of what he meant. and I said that characters range from 14 to 16, not 12 to 14. There are some minor debuffs on the vampire abilities that compensate for that, and some household rules for his weaknesses, but they don't seem relevant for the build. Also, other PCs have good items that they got adventuring for years (even though the "power level" of our campaign is pretty low compared to most D&D campaigns), while mine will be only average. And the GM also gives attribute points occasionally when we achieve some major accomplishment to compensate the lack of really powerful magic items and the low XP he gives us at the end of each session (it's kinda arbitrary depending on our "advancement" of the story). So while I have 8 attribute points to distribute, some of the older characters must have gotten from 12-14 attribute points already.

Yeah, effective character level 12.

[graymachine]

I'm pretty sure of what he meant. and I said that characters range from 14 to 16, not 12 to 14. There are some minor debuffs on the vampire abilities that compensate for that, and some household rules for his weaknesses, but they don't seem relevant for the build. Also, other PCs have good items that they got adventuring for years (even though the "power level" of our campaign is pretty low compared to most D&D campaigns), while mine will be only average. And the GM also gives attribute points occasionally when we achieve some major accomplishment to compensate the lack of really powerful magic items and the low XP he gives us at the end of each session (it's kinda arbitrary depending on our "advancement" of the story). So while I have 8 attribute points to distribute, some of the older characters must have gotten from 12-14 attribute points already.

Yeah, effective character level 12.

Well, now I'm confused. Still, even at 18 ECL, you would only have 83 hp, which is around what we would expect for a wizard of that level, not a front line fighter. Keep in mind, when you hit 0 hp, you don't go prone and bleed, you instantly ash.

As for War Mage, you are looking a lot better with 12 caster levels rather than 6, but you are still kinda bringing sparklers to a gunfight. Given that it sounds like you have an incredibly liberal DM, I would definitely try to get the LA buy off. Here is a link to the variant rule: Reducing Level Adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). Unfortunately, you just reached the first buy off increment at level 18, but 1 is better than nothing; that still leaves you +1 ECL over the closest in the party (17), and as soon as you level you can take another one. I would only consider playing a primary caster if you can get this, and if you do obviously you need to dump those free points into your casting stat.

EDIT: That 10 INT is going to hurt hard on a Warmage, so you are pretty much going to have to dump your points into it, which will make several of your CHA-based vampire abilities suffer, since you have a 10 there too, so perhaps a CHA based caster for better synergy? Either way, by my count, you should have a casting stat of 37(10+8 free points+5 from books+6 from item+2 from template+3 from levels+3 from age bonus if you can swing it.) if you can convince your DM to let you redo your abilities, max out your INT for another 8 points, giving you a 45. The increase in bonus spells and spell DC from a high INT will help offset your lag in caster levels.

[graymachine]

Creating a second response to address a different issue.

Have you considered Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Paladin_of_Tyranny_Class_Features)?

I ask because it just occurred to me that healing is going to be difficult for you, although not as bad as other undead due to your energy drain ability and that you can rely on fast healing outside of combat. The Paladin levels would go a long way toward shoring up you weaknesses as a front-line fighter and the CHA-focused class will synergize nicely with your vampire abilities, although (presuming your party is generally good) your Smite Good ability will be more or less useless. Still, you'll be a little light on hp, so if you do want to be a front-line fighter, I would highly recommend the magic item out of the Compendium made for undead that changes hp bonus from being CON-based to being CHA-based; that'll easily correct your hp problem and make a fairly awesome combatant (high hp, immune to crits and most effects, etc.)

For example, assuming this magic item and a CHA of 45 (highest reasonably obtainable as your stats currently stand), you would have 287 hp.

[graymachine]

Here's a rough build for the Vampire Paladin of Tyranny, simply because I kind of like it (I know you are using the Nosferatu variant out of Ravenloft, but I only have the SRD at the moment, so I'm going off of vampire in there):

Vampire Paladin of Tyranny 10
Alignment: Lawful Evil
HP: 274
STR: 28 (+6 item)
DEX: 18
CON: -
INT: 14
WIS: 12
CHA: 45 (from prev calculation)

BAB: +10/+5

Fort: Hah!
Reflex: 28 (3 +4 +17 +4 from magic item)
Will: 25 (3 +1+17 +4 from magic item)

Attacks: Slam- +19 to hit, 1d6+9 damage, Energy Drain (su)
Grapple- +19 to hit, blood drain (ex)

Special Abilities: Children of the Night (su), Dominate (su) (Save DC 32!), Create Spawn (su), Alternate Form (su), DR 10/silver & magic, Fast Healing 5 (su), Gaseous Form (su), Resistance Cold & Electricity 10 (ex), Spider Climb (ex), Turn Resistance (ex), Aura of Evil (ex), Detect Good (su), Smite Good x3 (su), Deadly Touch 170hp (su, your main method of healing), Aura of Despair (su), Rebuke Undead (su), Cause Disease x2/week (sp), Special Mount

Spellcasting:
1st - 2 spells
2nd - 1 spell
(Might want to boost Wisdom)

Wealth by Level: 440,000 gp

Aside from assuming all of the magic item purchases necessary for the CHA boost, as well as one for STR, a +4 [Cloak] of Resistance, and the CHA-to-hit-points item, I've largely left your money allotment alone (although all the CHA buffs are not cheap.)

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm pretty sure of what he meant. and I said that characters range from 14 to 16, not 12 to 14.

....

Yeah, effective character level 12.

Yea, sorry, I meant 14-16, not 12-14. Also:

=ECL (Effective Character Level) = Racial Hit Dice + Class Levels + Level Adjustment. You use XP to measure this (IE, a character with level adjustment +1 begins play at 3000 xp, ie ECL 2).

Class Level = Class Levels

[Cirrylius]

=ECL (Effective Character Level) = Racial Hit Dice + Class Levels + Level Adjustment.

Ah, Level Adjustment, my dear old enemy, we meet again:smallannoyed: