Full attacks after moving

[Yogibear41]

In a game I play all creatures can make their full attack after moving, seems pretty dangerous for certain classes that like to stay in back, how should me and the other players in my group guard against getting insta gibbed in one round (seen it happen)

[eggynack]

Well, what classes are you? Different back row characters have different answers to an enemy running up to gank them. Miss chances are generally a pretty good answer. Mirror image can go a long way towards making sure that most of those attacks miss.

[Glimbur]

Depending on the terrain and other party members, it might not be possible/safe to walk over and hit you in the back row. That's more relevant for dungeons with hallways and such. In more open fields, you'll want to look at positioning and think about how fast your enemies are.

AC and miss chance and other ways to avoid dying are also worth pursuing.

There are ways to make it harder for enemies to move. People with reach weapons (and combat reflexes), spells to clutter the battlefield (grease, fog spells, wall of whatever), debuffs (slow), summoned monsters... look at your options. Pick a couple. Then hire a bunch of henchmen.

[Yogibear41]

Most of these I'm pretty aware of, but its mainly the suprise rounds im worried about, and people getting dropped before they can do anything.

[eggynack]

Perhaps, but either way it's tricky to come up with tactics that are just generally useful. Things would be a lot easier in general if you gave us your party makeup so there would be something to work with.

[Slipperychicken]

In a game I play all creatures can make their full attack after moving, seems pretty dangerous for certain classes that like to stay in back, how should me and the other players in my group guard against getting insta gibbed in one round (seen it happen)

What classes, races, and level is the party? What tactics and roles do you usually fill?

One gem I found recently: mounted spellcasters and ranged characters can cast spells or full-attack normally while their mount moves up to its speed, and only need to make Concentration checks or take penalties when it moves faster than that. So if they weren't already using this rule to their advantage, now's the time to pick up a mount (perhaps via Wild Cohort or Phantom Steed) and probably slap Horseshoes of Speed onto it to become the ultimate skirmisher.

[Fyermind]

persistent greater mirror image, persistent greater blink, abrupt jaunt/wings of cover.

Lots of things to boost initiative are worth it in a game of rocket tag.

[Ace Nex]

Get a front row guy with a reach weapon, imp trip, and combat reflexes. Guys who try to run past get tripped and beaten down. Even better, give him a TOB class with some maneuvers that allow allies to move/move enemies when it's not their turn or limit the enemies actions (hits that prevent them from moving or making full attacks). High AC buffed by spells or other ways is a very simple solution (cleric in full plate+shield of faith+mage armor (force domain) and large steel shield is hard to hit), but if that doesn't matter, illusion spells like mirror image

Spells that cause them to miss you in the part place like invisibility/ethereal jaunt and other such things are solid.

To prevent round 1 Surprise rounds, make sure someone has maxed out spot/listen/perception and high initiatives (if you have feats to burn, Imp init or high dex mod) prevent that. Remember, speaking is a free action. If you see the kobold behind the rock, remember to tell everyone about it.

Detection spells, like having detect thoughts/evil up or the rangers nemesis feat (combine with arcane hunter for best results, as I have found most things have SLA or arcane spells) will also prevent those surprise rounds from even happening

[Yogibear41]

Perhaps, but either way it's tricky to come up with tactics that are just generally useful. Things would be a lot easier in general if you gave us your party makeup so there would be something to work with.

Half troll/half giant psychic warrior 4
Gnome Wizard 6
Dwarf Warlock 5 (me)
Human Rogue 5/Fighter 1

and occasionally a druid shows up

when rogue was 5th level he litterally got killed by a troll in one round from 100% to -10 hp (everyone failed their spots checks horrible)

[Slipperychicken]

when rogue was 5th level he litterally got killed by a troll in one round from 100% to -10 hp (everyone failed their spots checks horrible)

Troll full attack is 25.5 damage if it hits, barring criticals. High Dex guy with chain shirt should have ~18 AC, or 14 Flat-Footed against a 9/9/4 full-attack progression, so DPR should be a little lower against him. A character with d6 hit die and 14 Con will have 30hp at level 5. If the Troll rolled well or the Rogue was squishy (i.e. "I don't need Con, I have Dex so I'll never be hit!"), Rogue being 1-round KO'd is the expected result.

[Occasional Sage]

Troll full attack is 25.5 damage if it hits, barring criticals. High Dex guy with chain shirt should have ~18 AC, or 14 Flat-Footed. A character with d6 hit die and 14 Con will have 30hp at level 5. If the Troll rolled well or the Rogue was squishy (i.e. "I don't need Con, I have Dex so I'll never be hit!"), Rogue being 1-round KO'd is the expected result.

Yeah, but going from 30 to -10 is an oddity. Certainly in the realm if possibility though.

Obvious answer? Make sure you win initiative.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, but going from 30 to -10 is an oddity.

If the Troll rolled well, which by definition means the event is somehow unlikely. If the Rogue only had 12 Con, his HP would have been ~25, and he honestly would have no business being anywhere in the vicinity of hostile trolls anyway (but he got jumped, you can't really blame him), considering that he has better-than-even odds of getting 1-rounded by a Troll's full attack.

[eggynack]

Half troll/half giant psychic warrior 4
Gnome Wizard 6
Dwarf Warlock 5 (me)
Human Rogue 5/Fighter 1

and occasionally a druid shows up

when rogue was 5th level he litterally got killed by a troll in one round from 100% to -10 hp (everyone failed their spots checks horrible)

Well, there's two obvious points of entry for solving this problem then. The first is the classic method of using the meat shields to meat shield. In other words, stopping the enemy from the perspective of the front lines. Just looking at your party, I would assume that the psychic warrior and the rogue are in the front lines, but from your description, it's just the psychic warrior. Fortunately, psychic warriors are actually pretty good at meat shielding. If he doesn't have expansion, he should probably take it. However, on the first round, he's going to lack the ability to do that. A standard tripping AoO build fits pretty perfectly with his capabilities, but these tactics are largely dependent on what the psychic warrior actually has. The gnome wizard's problem isn't that difficult to solve. Spells like mirror image can easily make it not worth it to stab him in the face. There're lots of high powered defensive spells that last for a decent amount of time. The only mitigating factor is that you need to have any kind of time to prepare at all. The rogue should be decent at helping your group with that. With any kind of mix of stealth and perception, your party is unlikely to be surprise ganked by a random group of enemies in the surprise round.

For you, the warlock, I'd advise taking fell flight at some point. The enemy is unlikely to randomly stab you if you're flying in the air. Finally, there's the druid. He basically takes on both the role of the frontliner, with his friendly face eating pet, and that of the guy in the back, being relatively fragile. Fortunately, he can do the whole flying out of harm's way thing pretty trivially with any number of flying shapes. The animal companion has variable amounts of utility, depending on what it is. Fortunately, the cost to switch out pets is pretty low, so if it's not good now then it can be. I'd suggest some sort of riding dog, or a fleshraker dinosaur if you can do that. At 7th level, he might want to consider trading in for a brown bear. Any of these options will lessen the degree of harm your party will come to. Either way, that's about all I can come up with from the information given. With more build information, like what resources these characters actually have access to from their character creation, there's more specific stuff. The wizard and druid stuff is pretty generic though, because they can just change their character at a moment's notice.

[ArcaneGlyph]

Your wizard would be the answer to a good many of the attackers. Less Pewpew spells and more controller spells. Illusions to baffle and heard the enemy while soaking attacks. Webs, Greases, Stinking Clouds and other AOE pool spells to stop the monsters from advancing. The Rogue and fighter could aim for improved trip, or bull rushing or grappling. The goal isn't just to kill your enemies, but lock them down and in place, then kill them at your leisure. I am unfamiliar with warlocks, but I have heard they are pretty good at cursing and debilitating enemies which would also reduce the incoming damage to the party. My final word of advice is don't be afraid to re-position the front line fighters, they don't HAVE to stand in one spot and beat something until it's dead. If a fighter get surrounded he is now a pinata for flanks, sometimes it is worth taking an a defensive AOO vs taking 3 full round attacks the next round.

[HalfQuart]

Troll full attack is 25.5 damage if it hits, barring criticals. High Dex guy with chain shirt should have ~18 AC, or 14 Flat-Footed against a 9/9/4 full-attack progression, so DPR should be a little lower against him. A character with d6 hit die and 14 Con will have 30hp at level 5. If the Troll rolled well or the Rogue was squishy (i.e. "I don't need Con, I have Dex so I'll never be hit!"), Rogue being 1-round KO'd is the expected result.
And don't forget with a Troll, if it hits with both the claw attacks, it gets to Rend for an additional 2d6+9 damage. So if it hits with all three attacks (not common, but certainly possible) and doesn't crit, average damage is:
1d6+6 + 1d6+6 + 1d6+3 + 2d6+9
9.5 + 9.5 + 6.5 + 16 = 41

Average HP for level 5 Rogue with 14 Con: 6 + 3.5*4 + 2*4 = 30

So with this rule where you can always pounce, even in a surprise round (where you're normally limited to a standard, move, or charge), the squishies are going to have it rough.

Obvious answer? Make sure you win initiative.
Except in this case it was in the surprise round.

I think your best bet might be one of the cheaper Immediate Action Miss Change items... probably the Torc of Displacement (MiC 143) for 2,000 gp. You might also want to peruse the Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851).

[Shining Wrath]

The first solution is "Don't get surprised". Lots of ways to help with that, such as items that boost Listen or Spot. And anything that helps initiative helps as well. As it turns out, the Ring of Anticipation helps with all of these.

[russdm]

I am suprised no has mentioned this: According to the rules, you can't take a full attack after moving unless its only 5 feet. You get full attack by having the pounce feat or something like it. Otherwise you can't move and full attack. You should point this out and insist that the DM change things to let you do the same.

also, you can't full attack in a suprise round. You can do a partial charge for one attack.

[Shining Wrath]

I am suprised no has mentioned this: According to the rules, you can't take a full attack after moving unless its only 5 feet. You get full attack by having the pounce feat or something like it. Otherwise you can't move and full attack. You should point this out and insist that the DM change things to let you do the same.

also, you can't full attack in a suprise round. You can do a partial charge for one attack.

It seems a house rule is in effect.

[eggynack]

I am suprised no has mentioned this: According to the rules, you can't take a full attack after moving unless its only 5 feet. You get full attack by having the pounce feat or something like it. Otherwise you can't move and full attack. You should point this out and insist that the DM change things to let you do the same.

also, you can't full attack in a suprise round. You can do a partial charge for one attack.
I'm pretty sure that no one mentioned it because it was so obvious. For me at least, I assumed that this was a house rule of some kind. Maybe something to balance out casting and mundane a bit, but I don't know for sure. I'm not psychic, and I'm definitely not over-the-internet psychic. If this is something that the DM believes is true by RAW, rather than something that he's making true by sheer force of will, then telling him he's wrong would be a valid solution. The other question, how do you deal with a world where every creature has pounce, is a more interesting one anyway. You basically have to be prepared to be ganked all the time, and have defenses up against that permanently.

[Icewraith]

Shouldn't the rogue have had uncanny dodge, so he never loses his dex bonus to surprise?

[Slipperychicken]

Shouldn't the rogue have had uncanny dodge, so he never loses his dex bonus to surprise?

He probably did, but his AC would have been ~18 (assuming chain shirt and 18 Dex), still giving the Troll decent odds of hitting with his 9/9/4 full attack progression. He had more than a 50% chance to at least KO the Rogue, and decent rolls could easily turn that into a kill. The math works, and it was simply not in the Rogue's favor.

[Yogibear41]

Rogue had an ac of 19 or 20 I believe and around 36ish hp, troll got a crit on one of its claws, hit with all 3 attacks and rended.

I've reminded our DM about making full attacks on the run a few times and he does it anyway, I dislike being the rules lawyer, and have had a bad habit of it from time to time in the past so I'm trying not to do that anymore, so I'm just going to go with it.

[ksbsnowowl]

Then I suggest every warrior in your party get Shock Trooper. You'll likely kill everything before the AC of 0 would be a detriment...

[eggynack]

Rogue had an ac of 19 or 20 I believe and around 36ish hp, troll got a crit on one of its claws, hit with all 3 attacks and rended.

I've reminded our DM about making full attacks on the run a few times and he does it anyway, I dislike being the rules lawyer, and have had a bad habit of it from time to time in the past so I'm trying not to do that anymore, so I'm just going to go with it.
So it's not a house rule? Then you probably should just talk to him. Just make sure that you do it outside the game, and it should be fine. This isn't some obscure rule from an obscure source book. It's a basic combat rule that everyone has access to. You should try to make sure that your DM understands basic combat rules, especially if they're basic combat rules that are going to come up every single combat without fail.

[Yogibear41]

I did that, and he said he knows about those rules but feels they are more for player characters and not monsters.

[Saintheart]

Then it's time for the player who had the rogue to build a Lion Totem Barbarian and show the GM what he's doing to you all :smalltongue:

EDIT: And time for the Gnome Wizard to learn Nerveskitter.

[eggynack]

I did that, and he said he knows about those rules but feels they are more for player characters and not monsters.
Well, as long as he's aware that his feelings aren't RAW accurate, then there's not much you can do. In that case, I was correct in my initial assertion that this was a house rule. Also, if a troll manages to hit all three times on his full attack, and gets a critical hit one of those times, the rogue is probably going to die. It seems like he just got unlucky. Still, as is usual for cases like these, you should probably have the wizard put together some spells like the ones we suggested so that you guys can make your own luck.

[Immabozo]

I've reminded our DM about making full attacks on the run a few times and he does it anyway, I dislike being the rules lawyer, and have had a bad habit of it from time to time in the past so I'm trying not to do that anymore, so I'm just going to go with it.

I've had a similar problem, but they happened one basically ever single point my character was built on, with often on-the-fly nerfs. I learned when it let a beloved character and great group (minus DM) go.

But I think I see where the DM is coming from. He is penalizing playing a squishy character, making it a more even playing field between playing the squishy guys and the beat sticks. Wizards are scared of dying at any second and become paranoid, beatsticks go "I'm getting angry, you wont like me when I'm angry" and then does that psychic expansion spell and hulks out.


Then I suggest every warrior in your party get Shock Trooper. You'll likely kill everything before the AC of 0 would be a detriment...

Shock Trooper still has the BAB cap on power attack. It just goes to AC instead of to-hit.

My idea was a combination of things. I believe (but dont know the spell) nerveskitter, or something along those lines, is an immediate action spell for the wizard I think to the effect of "I take my full turn now" and celerity is another immediate action wizard spell that lets you take your tun now, but dazes you for 1 round.

Your fighter can also take knockback to try to push opponents back every hit (as if bullrushing them, but he doesn't move with him) with bonuses for power attacking. Shock trooper gives this option good battlefield contral potential and also gives power attack some much needed flexibility. Combat Brute also can give nice bonuses for each square they are pushed back, plus a contingent bonus to power attack.

Also, having your fighters get pounce (it only costs a 1 level dip in barbarian, grab "Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian" ACF for pounce at the cost of the fast movement barbarian class feature, whirling barbarian ACF for an arguably upgraded rage, but gives you a second attack on a charge?)

Divine ranks also help :smallsmile:

EDIT: ninjaed on nerveskitter by Saintheart

2nd EDIT: It's SPIRIT lion totem Barbarian that gets pounce, not the lion totem Barbarian that Saintheart suggested

[Sylthia]

Having full round attack actually helps keep martial classes viable longer, assuming it's not just the enemies that get it. By the time, you start getting iterative attacks is when spell casters start being the bigger threat. The attacks still all have to land, so investing in more AC and the crowd control should still help.

[Saintheart]

Also, having your fighters get pounce (it only costs a 1 level dip in barbarian, grab "Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian" ACF for pounce at the cost of the fast movement barbarian class feature, whirling barbarian ACF for an arguably upgraded rage, but gives you a second attack on a charge?)

Precisely, because Pounce is a normally-monster-only feature that allows you to make full attacks following a charge. The lion out of the SRD can do it, which is why it's called "Pounce" and why it's a Lion Totem barbarian class feature :smallwink:

EDIT: Ninja clanz are warring. Spirit Lion Totem barbarian, a said. Complete Champion sourcebook.

[Immabozo]

Precisely, because Pounce is a normally-monster-only feature that allows you to make full attacks following a charge. The lion out of the SRD can do it, which is why it's called "Pounce" and why it's a Lion Totem barbarian class feature :smallwink:

EDIT: Ninja clanz are warring. Spirit Lion Totem barbarian, a said. Complete Champion sourcebook.

Thus why it is an epic feat for PCs!

Yes, so you agree with me, spirit lion totem. It's under the "Spirit variations" heading and multiple are listed! Point, the Bozo

[Sylthia]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281525We had a thread going about having pounce be a baseline feat a couple weeks ago...

[Immabozo]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281525We had a thread going about having pounce be a baseline feat a couple weeks ago...

That's Pathfinder

[Sylthia]

It's Pathfinder, but the rules can transition to 3.5 quite easily.

[Immabozo]

It's Pathfinder, but the rules can transition to 3.5 quite easily.

ah, ok. I'll have to actually read it then, haha