A couple rules questions

[Thunndarr]

We had a gaming session recently where my character summoned a fiendish tiger and had him do a pounce attack. The text on the stat block states that pounce results in a full attack + 2 rake attacks. First, the DM basically implied that the stat blocks were incorrect. I didn't have the text at hand so couldn't look it up, but yes, it was correct. In any case, he ruled that the tiger could, per the rules of pounce, make a charge (and get the standard attack from charge) and also get the full attack from pounce (but not the 2 rakes.)

He's basing this on the fact that he claims that a charge includes the attack, and the fact that the text for rake specifies that in order to make a rake, the opponent needs to be grappled.

As I read it, a charge is a move plus an optional attack, for one. And the other part is, why would the designers have said the tiger could make two rake attacks as part of the pounce if the opponent needs to be grappled before by the attacker *before the pounce*?

[Namfuak]

"If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks." I don't really see how that could be any clearer. Your DM is quite wrong.

EDIT: Oh, a tiger. Well, tigers have the same description in their pounce ability except it's tiger instead of lion. Also, from the description of the pounce ability:

"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability."

[Thunndarr]

"If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks." I don't really see how that could be any clearer. Your DM is quite wrong.

EDIT: Oh, a tiger. Well, tigers have the same description in their pounce ability except it's tiger instead of lion. Also, from the description of the pounce ability:

"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability."

He points to the text to rake, stating rake attacks only occur after a successful grapple. Also, charges must end in an attack. And weirdly, due to this ruling, a pounce yields a single attack, PLUS a full attack. Which I find odd because if we had a PC with pounce in the party, that would be a significant buff.

[eggynack]

Well, he's wrong, so that's about all there is to it. The full attack doesn't happen in addition to the charge attack, it happens instead of it. You move up to twice your speed, and then you make an attack, and that attack is either the not-pounce single attack, or the tiger's full attack.

Edit: Also, the rake argument is meaningless. Pounce explicitly states under its special ability listing that it gives you rake attacks. The rakes on the pounce, and the rakes that get made due to grappling, are two separate entities.

[Khedrac]

The rake part of some of the cats' pounce descriptions is unclear.
Part of this is the nature of English, but mainly it's bad writing.

Under very strict RAW it probably is correct to say that the pounce on a charge grants rake attacks, but it is equally valid to ask what that means.
And a rake attack is one "used following a successful grapple", which to me means that the rake attacks only apply if the grapple succeeded.
Yes, I hold that this is RAW - but I accept that I am in the minority here and don't push my opinion.

Now also remember that the DM is the authority for any game. I don't see this ruling from him as an undeclared house-rule, merely an unexpected rules clarification.


Rake

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

Now pounce overrides the last paragraph, but it is debatable if it overrides the first.

[icefractal]

As a general principle in D&D, specific trumps general. For example, Antimagic Field says you can't cast spells in it. Invoke Magic specifically says "you can cast this in an Antimagic Field". Therefore, it trumps the general rule about not casting spells there.

For the same reason, the fact that Pounce specifically says you can make Rake attacks trumps the general rule that Rake attacks are made when grappling.

[eggynack]

Now pounce overrides the last paragraph, but it is debatable if it overrides the first.
I don't think it's debatable at all. Rake says that you need to grapple in order to get access to it. Pounce says that you can rake after a pounce as a special case. The divine and sacred rule of gaming is that specific overrides general, and rake is clearly the more general rule in this case. Thus, you can only rake after a grapple, or after a pounce.

Edit: I have been swordsage'd by the inexorable flow of time. Ah, woe is me, for the ever shifting tides of chance have flowed against me. Perhaps in the future, I can take refuge in greater providence.

[KillianHawkeye]

If your DM had ever actually seen a cat pouncing, you would not be having this problem. They get the rakes.

[Thunndarr]

The other issue is his interpretation of charge.

His ruling is that a charge includes the a single attack. All the time. Therefore, when coupled with the wording for pounce...

Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

So, his rule is that pounce equals charge (double move plus single attack) plus full attack.

I disagree. It seems to me that a charge is move that may or may not include an attack.

[eggynack]

The other issue is his interpretation of charge.

His ruling is that a charge includes the a single attack. All the time. Therefore, when coupled with the wording for pounce...

Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

So, his rule is that pounce equals charge (double move plus single attack) plus full attack.

I disagree. It seems to me that a charge is move that may or may not include an attack.
Well, the way it works is that a charge is a movement, after which you may make an attack. It's a may thing, so charging isn't necessarily inextricably linked to attacking. However, that attack can be a normal attack, or a pouncing full attack. You don't get both, because pounce is replacing the standard attack.

[Thunndarr]

Well, the way it works is that a charge is a movement, after which you may make an attack. It's a may thing, so charging isn't necessarily inextricably linked to attacking. However, that attack can be a normal attack, or a pouncing full attack. You don't get both, because pounce is replacing the standard attack.

That's how I read it as well. I also pointed this out, but he disagrees. He believes charge is an attack.

[rot42]

The description of Pounce in the Rules Compendium is much clearer. You get to follow the movement with a regular full attack (even if restricted to a single action) and the rake attacks only go off if you succeed in initiating a grapple.

[eggynack]

That's how I read it as well. I also pointed this out, but he disagrees. He believes charge is an attack.
Well, the book says, "After moving, you may make a single melee attack," which indicates that you can also not make a single melee attack. Thus, they are linked, but not necessarily so. Additionally, it says, "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action." This means that charging is the action, and attacking is something you can do during the action. That seems clear cut enough to me.

[Namfuak]

The description of Pounce in the Rules Compendium is much clearer. You get to follow the movement with a regular full attack (even if restricted to a single action) and the rake attacks only go off if you succeed in initiating a grapple.

It seems you are right. The pounce and rake sections on page 101 of that book pretty explicitly say you have to grapple the target successfully to rake him. And, on second reading of charge, I actually think I agree with your DM - the movement and attack are both listed as part of the action of charging, and the text on pounce says that you make a full attack after the charge, which would mean the charge (with its attack) completes, and then you make a full attack. This gets strange if you try to grapple on the charge attack though - assuming you succeed in grappling the opponent, you have ended your charge, and still get a full attack on the opponent, including more rake attacks. I feel like this interpretation of the rules, while possibly RAW, is probably a bit silly.

[eggynack]

It seems you are right. The pounce and rake sections on page 101 of that book pretty explicitly say you have to grapple the target successfully to rake him. And, on second reading of charge, I actually think I agree with your DM - the movement and attack are both listed as part of the action of charging, and the text on pounce says that you make a full attack after the charge, which would mean the charge (with its attack) completes, and then you make a full attack. This gets strange if you try to grapple on the charge attack though - assuming you succeed in grappling the opponent, you have ended your charge, and still get a full attack on the opponent, including more rake attacks. I feel like this interpretation of the rules, while possibly RAW, is probably a bit silly.
Your reading of raking is incorrect, as the DM's is. You are correct that raking is usually only allowed on a grapple. However, pounce is an explicit exception to that rule. In fact, pounce operates under the mandate of specific trumping general as well. Charge explicitly states that you're only allowed to make a single attack after the charge, and pounce says that you can full attack. Which is correct? Obviously the pounce rules, because it's specific rather than general. You don't need to grapple at all during a pounce in order to get access to the rake attacks, and that's not only perfectly RAW, but within the intent of the rules. Moreover, the rules on charging explicitly state that you may attack after a charge. It's not a must, and therefore charging is the act of running up to your opponent prior to the attack. It all seems rather clear cut. I'm not sure how many attacks you can get through a combination of pounce and improved grab, but there is certainly a clear cut answer out there. I'll probably find it if I look around a bit.

[Namfuak]

Your reading of raking is incorrect, as the DM's is. You are correct that raking is usually only allowed on a grapple. However, pounce is an explicit exception to that rule. In fact, pounce operates under the mandate of specific trumping general as well. Charge explicitly states that you're only allowed to make a single attack after the charge, and pounce says that you can full attack. Which is correct? Obviously the pounce rules, because it's specific rather than general. You don't need to grapple at all during a pounce in order to get access to the rake attacks, and that's not only perfectly RAW, but within the intent of the rules. Moreover, the rules on charging explicitly state that you may attack after a charge. It's not a must, and therefore charging is the act of running up to your opponent prior to the attack. It all seems rather clear cut. I'm not sure how many attacks you can get through a combination of pounce and improved grab, but there is certainly a clear cut answer out there. I'll probably find it if I look around a bit.

I'm going to assume you didn't bother reading the rules in the Rule Compendium rot42 mentioned, and didn't understand what I said about charge, because you are not engaging with what I said at all.



Pounce
When a creature that has this extraordinary special attack charges, it can still make a full attack even if it charged while restricted to a single action. All its attacks receive the +2 bonus on attack rolls gained from charging. If it uses its attacks to successfully start a grapple, and it has the rake ability, it can also make rake attacks.

That is completely unambiguous. If you don't play with the Rules Compendium then I suppose it doesn't apply.



Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action

Note the wording - attack during the action, not after the action. Now the text from pounce:



When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack...


Note the word "follow" - once the charge action (and its attack) is complete, you can follow that action with a full attack.

[eggynack]

I'm going to assume you didn't bother reading the rules in the Rule Compendium rot42 mentioned, and didn't understand what I said about charge, because you are not engaging with what I said at all.



That is completely unambiguous. If you don't play with the Rules Compendium then I suppose it doesn't apply.
I engaged what you said pretty directly. Here's a direct quote from the specific rule which overrides the general if I need to say it directly: "Pounce-When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability." Therefore, pouncing is a special exception to the general rule that you can only pounce on a grapple.




Note the wording - attack during the action, not after the action. Now the text from pounce:

Note the word "follow" - once the charge action (and its attack) is complete, you can follow that action with a full attack. You attack during the action of charging. Attacking isn't a fundamental thing to charging, it's just a thing that you may do in a charge. Charging takes a full round, so anything that happens during that turn is necessarily happening during that action. Charging is intrinsically a movement action after which an attack can occur, and pounce replaces that action.

Edit: Ah. I suppose that the rules compendium listing for it is different. That's weird. I'm still certain that the standard attack is being replaced by a full attack through the magic of pounce.