The 9 Groups Vying for The Gates

[Tre of the Wood]

We have heard from a panel in the print books that there are at least 9 separate groups going after the gates. At the time, we didn't know about all of them, but it's been a while, so lets see how many we can identify.

I'll start with the obvious ones:

1) The OOTS
2) Team Evil
3) The IIFC
4) The LG
5) Tarquin and Pals

These are 5 groups we can without a doubt say are separately going after the gates, no questions asked. No lets try for a few more. I saw we can safely assume that Team Evil can be split into two groups: Xykon and Redcloak/The Dark One. There have been some pretty clear signs that they have different goals, so lets make them two groups. That gives us 6 which I feel totally comfortable with.

As for the other 3, I have a few ideas. In no particular order of plausibility: 1) The Snarl. The Snarl has something going on we don't know about, judging by the planet inside the rift. Something is up, we just don't know what. Only a few people know about this too -- V, probably Team Evil, and possibly the Snarl and the Gods. Speaking of the Gods... 2) The Gods. We've never seen the Snarl in person. We have only heard about it from other characters, who presumably heard it from the gods. Maybe it's real, maybe it isn't, but the Gods seem to know something we don't. Either the Snarl has done something weird to make that planet in the rift, or the Gods have. Either way, I find it questionable enough to list them as another potential group. 3) Hinjo and the remaining Sapphire Guard. The Guard is certainly aligned with the OOTS, but they are absolutely not the same thing. Lets throw them in too. 4) The (Remainder of the) Scribble Group: Some of them may have lived, and their efforts remain at very least. If they don't count, then Girard's descendants alone should.

Those ought to be enough, but lets throw in two more that I like. 1) Lets split up the Dark one and Redcloak. We have had some tension building up with what exactly the gods have shared with their minions, and Redcloak seems to be starting to care more about the goblins than The Plan. I can see them splitting ways, though it would take some writing. 2) The MITD. He isn't on Team Evil anymore, not really. He has a bigger role to play still, and I eagerly await to see what it is.

Any other ideas? I'd love to hear them.

[Dumbestupidiot]

Probably the best way to define the differant groups is to figure out the intentions they have for the gates. Though some intentions maybe the same the groups may have differant means or ends beyond what is easily visible. For example the order of the stick and the order of the scribble both have the same goal of protecting the gates from those who would use it for personal gain but they never really have had interaction so they are differant groups and or unofficial allies

so in that sense we have:

The OOTS: Protect the gate from those who would use the snarl for personal gain/destruction

Team Evil:

Xykon: Take over the world for himself with help of Redclock's spell

Redclock: Blackmail gods with snarl powers (i think, i never read the prequels

The IIFC: Not completely certain, but likely something to do with the snarl and blackmailing/unleashing it against the higher planes

The LG

Nale and friends: Unwitting pawns of The IIFC, uncertain how they would use the gates

Tarquin and friends: Use gate to help conquest plans

as for the rest of potential sides,

the snarl would likely want out of it's prison but it's uncertain how much of a role he has to play in the gate fighting besides being the eldrich abomination,

the gods seem like they want to keep the status quo,

The Sapphire guard, an offshoot of the order of the scribble, fully commited to keeping the gates safe and the snarl imprisoned with or without the aid of anyone else,

The Order of the Scribble, current keepers of the gates and maintainers of the status quo, apparently taking on all comers (which is totally going well for them)

As for the rest, The Dark One still has redclock on his side though there is a potential rift between them redclock is unlikely to back out now that he's invested so much
The MITD doesn't care (and can't even see the gates) so he can hardly count as a side

[Red.Tide]

Don't forget team "Unintelligent Mascots," made up of Thog and the MITD, who just want all their friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) to sit down and partake of various desserts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html).

[Emanick]

I really don't think that the Sapphire Guard qualifies as a separate side. To be on different sides, groups have to have conflicting goals, and there is no conflict between what OOTS wants and what the Guard wants.

[LuPuWei]

I really don't think that the Sapphire Guard qualifies as a separate side. To be on different sides, groups have to have conflicting goals, and there is no conflict between what OOTS wants and what the Guard wants.

Plus the Sapphire Guard hasn't really entered the gate conflict in a big way yet. Sure they helped defend one gate in War and XPs and sent O-Chul and Lien after the last gate, but their primary concern seems to be Azure City and its former human population at the moment...

At the moment I'd count OotS, Team Evil, and the LG as three sides for sure.

With Tarquin, the IFCC and the Gods (all very good potential sides) I think we can only be sure when their intentions become clear to us and they take active part in the War of the Gates rather than acting by proxy through some pre-existing side or the other (ditto really for the Saphire Guard).

Whether or not to split Xykon/Redcloak at the moment, however, is a good question...

[Copperdragon]

Ah, every once in a while this question:

Confirmed are:

The Order of the Stick
Tarquin
The IFCC (including Nale, Sabine)
Xykon
The Dark One & Redcloak


Possible are:

Remains of the Order of the Scribble (possibly Serini)
Someone we do know about yet
Some gods (other than The Dark One) might have different shares in all this


The Paladins are surely not a unique faction, if anything, they belong to the Order (as they have the very same goal and support each other).

[Silverionmox]

The Order and the paladins do not have the same goal. The paladins are gate wardens, Roy needs to smoke Xykon or die trying. They're allies, like Redcloak and Xykon.

[veti]

Nobody ever says there are nine groups 'vying for the gates'.

The (rhetorical) question Redcloak asks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html), to which the roach says 'nine', is: "How many 'sides' are there in this conflict, anyway? Three? Four? More?"

He elaborates: "[Xykon and he are both] On the side of Evil, as defined by our opposition to those who choose to call themselves Good." But, he implies strongly, he doesn't consider Xykon to be on "his side".

So "Team Evil" is at least two sides.

One more thought to throw into the mix: He's talking to Jirix, who certainly knows no more than Xykon about the gates and the Dark One's plan. It follows that he can't know the true importance of the gates to RC. So the referent of "this conflict" may well have nothing to do with the gates at all.

Maybe he's talking about the Dark One's broader struggle to improve the lot of goblinkind. Or maybe he's just talking about the eternal war between Good and Evil. In which case, "nine" may be simply the number of alignments in the game.

[Gift Jeraff]

The conflict does refer to the Gates. In DStP Rich says we'll meet one of the nine sides in Book 5, and then elaborates that the sides are contenders for the Gates.

[martianmister]

Some possible candidates:

1. OotS: Wants to save world.
2. LG: Wants to conquer world.
3. Tarquin: Wants more power.
4. IFCC: Wants to destroy heavens.
5. Xykon: Wants world domination.
6. Redcloak: Wants a better world for goblins.
7. Snarl: Wants to destroy world.
8. Malack: Wants more death and destruction.
9. Serini's monsters: Wants to eat the gate.

[Sir_Leorik]

I really don't think that the Sapphire Guard qualifies as a separate side. To be on different sides, groups have to have conflicting goals, and there is no conflict between what OOTS wants and what the Guard wants.

Lord Shojo, in his capacity as commander of the Sapphire Guard, hired the OotS to investigate, and if necessary guard, the other Gates in the first place. While Shojo was acting secretly and against Soon's Oath, that doesn't change the fact that the OotS and (what's left of) the Sapphire Guard are the same side in this mishegos.

[Copperdragon]

The Order and the paladins do not have the same goal. The paladins are gate wardens, Roy needs to smoke Xykon or die trying. They're allies, like Redcloak and Xykon.

Maybe they did not have. I think they had the same goal. But that does not matter now, as their gate is gone, their function as warden is lost. Whatever O-Chul and Lien do now (they're the only ones left of the Sapphire Guard who are directly involved in he gate-business) is in line with what the Order wants. They were and still are the very same side. "The Good Guys". "The Order of the Stick and Allies". "Team Good".

[Prospero7]

If the planet Blackwing saw in 672 is inhabited, certain groups/teams/adventuring parties/whatever from there might have a stake in the gates as well. :smallsmile:

[bookguy]

Some possible candidates:

1. OotS: Wants to save world.
2. LG: Wants to conquer world.
3. Tarquin: Wants more power.
4. IFCC: Wants to destroy heavens.
5. Xykon: Wants world domination.
6. Redcloak: Wants a better world for goblins.
7. Snarl: Wants to destroy world.
8. Malack: Wants more death and destruction.
9. Serini's monsters: Wants to eat the gate.

Delicious, delicious gate.

[skim172]

I'd argue that the Azurites and the Sapphire Guard constitute a side. The way I look at it is whether or not a certain group acts as a team. OOTS and the Azurites may act as allies, but they work independently, and don't share the same leadership. On the same token, I would consider Redcloak, Xykon, and the Monster all as one group, even if they do have divergent endgames and are planning on backstabbing each other, because ostensibly, they act as units of one team with one plan. I'd include the goblin horde with them, as well, since they mostly only relate to the struggle over the Gates through the leadership of Team Evil.

So for me, it's the Order, Team Evil, the Linear Guild, the Azurites, the IFCC, and Tarquin & Friends.

As for who comprises the missing three, I only have speculation, but -

I'd be inclined to include the The Order of the Scribble. They don't take an active part in the story now and I don't expect they will. BUT, pretty much everything about the story revolves around their legacy. So in that sense, they very much are "players" in this story.

I also wonder if the Thieves' Guild might count. They're clearly not part of the other factions, and are well-organized. I'm hesitant, though, because I don't know how much of a role they play in the main story. Still, they were pretty important villains for a while, and with Ian Starshine and his bro now in the picture, the Thieves' Guild might have a further part to play.

I also wonder about individuals, like Eugene, who are difficult to fit into a side, but can't be said to really represent a faction. Perhaps Eugene is generally linked to the Order, through Roy, like Celia is. Other individuals might end up making a return - Enor and Gannji received a lot of attention, so perhaps they'll be back at some point, representing another faction in the conflict.

But I'm generally of the opinion we still have yet to see at least one more side to this conflict, maybe two.


If the planet Blackwing saw in 672 is inhabited, certain groups/teams/adventuring parties/whatever from there might have a stake in the gates as well. :smallsmile:

UNLESS - Blackwing was killed when he went to the Gate and what inhabits his body now is some mysterious avatar of the Snarl or that Other Planet, and Blackwing is secretly working for them all along! :smalleek:

Would explain why no one remembers Blackwing - the Snarl erased his soul, so no one can remember him. :smallbiggrin:

[Prospero7]

UNLESS - Blackwing was killed when he went to the Gate and what inhabits his body now is some mysterious avatar of the Snarl or that Other Planet, and Blackwing is secretly working for them all along! :smalleek:

Would explain why no one remembers Blackwing - the Snarl erased his soul, so no one can remember him. :smallbiggrin:

See, now, that is the kind of off-the-wall completely random story hook I live for when playing in campaigns or reading. You're getting my hopes up! Stop! :smallbiggrin:

[Sir_Leorik]

Here's my take on the "nine sides":

1. The Azurites, the Sapphire Guard and the Order of the Stick. They're all one side, seeking to protect the Gates from Xykon, Team Evil, the Linear Guild and anyone else with a nefarious motive.
2. Xykon. He believes that Redcloak's ritual will allow him to harness the power of the Snarl to rule the world via blackmail.
3. The Dark One and the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. Redcloak has been lying to Xykon since day one about what the ritual will do. It won't allow Xykon and Redcloak to control the Snarl; it will allow The Dark One to shift the planar fabric of the Gate, so it opens into the throne rooms of one of the gods. The Dark One plans to blackmail the gods into giving him the power to improve the lot of Goblinkind.
4. The IFCC. They want to use the Gates, and/or the Snarl to destroy the Upper Planes and the forces of Good. It is unclear how much they know about The Dark One's plans.
5. The Linear Guild. Nale wants to rule the world and figures the Gates are a shortcut to global domination.
6. Tarquin, Malack and their cronies. Tarquin plays a longer game than his son Nale; he has realized that brute force isn't always the right answer. (Not that its never the right answer, just that there are times to use guile and cunning.) His interest in Girard's Gate is not clear yet, since he knows that Nale has no way to control the Snarl, and would need to negotiate with Xykon. But why leave a potentially unstoppable doomsday device unguarded in the middle of his kingdom, when he can swoop in and seize it? If he has no way to directly profit from the Gate, maybe he can strike a deal with someone who can? Malack is taking an even longer view than Tarquin, with his goal of creating a Vampire ruled society where humans and lizardfolk are walking Happy Meals. Why leave the Gate to be seized by Xykon or the OotS?
7. The seventh group will probably be revealed in the next book, as the OotS heads for Kraagor's Tomb. One possibility is Count Durkon. Durkon knows everything the OotS knows about the Gates, though he lacks the details Shojo gave Roy. If Malack is destroyed by the OotS, it's possible Count Durkon will flee to the Dwarven Homelands and try to establish a Barovia like kingdom as he plots his next move. (Seriously, the Ravenloft jokes just write themselves! Gothic horror! Beer! Gypsies! Fighting trees with hammers!)
8. Maybe the gods are going to notice if a fourth Gate gets blown to smithereens. Maybe they'll tell the OotS to stop messing around and repair the damage they've been causing before they need to unmake the world and create a new one. That could put a timer on the Order's actions: defeat Xykon before the gods make good on their threat.
9. What did Blackwing see when he gazed into the Rift? Maybe one of the sides lives there and they don't want the Rifts sealed?

[Snails]

Nobody ever says there are nine groups 'vying for the gates'.

The (rhetorical) question Redcloak asks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html), to which the roach says 'nine', is: "How many 'sides' are there in this conflict, anyway? Three? Four? More?"

"I count at least nine" are the exact words.

I am going to throw out there the possibility that the roach is making a throwaway Great Wheel/Alignment joke. 9 = {Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic} X {Good, Neutral, Evil}.

The roach doesn't necessarily know any specifics, but is making a reasonable snarky guess that everyone is in the game, whether they know it at the moment or not.

[Reddish Mage]

I'd like to suggest that the idea of trying to divide the parties known to us into what the demon roach referred to as "at least nine" groups is mistaken. After all the Additionally at the time the roach referred to the "nine groups," was way back in 548, and Tarquin and Malack did not even know about the gate. They could not be one of the sides. We know from the other roach that there was "some" groups we didn't hear about, which I presume included the IFCC which had yet to put in an appearance but did have an interest in the gate, so there is still at least ONE unknown group still out there.

This subject has been discussed before:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123426