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Jeff the Green
2013-05-06, 06:39 AM
So, I've nearly finished the map of my campaign world, but trying to figure out its climate is driving me crazy. I am very much not a visual person, so all the tutorials that show the basics of winds and currents and stuff aren't helping. I was hoping someone here could help me.

Map in spoiler 'cause BIG.
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/126/7/6/color_adem_draft_1_by_jeffthegreen-d64autb.png

It's in the southern hemisphere, and the top of the map is ~10 degrees south of the equator. The sea ice is shown at its most northerly limits in winter, and the temperature is about the same as the earth pre-industrialization.

If anyone could help, I'd be enormously grateful! :smallsmile:

Grinner
2013-05-06, 08:42 AM
Nicely done. Did you just use an image editor to make this?

Anyway, I'm certainly no expert, but as far as realism is concerned, I think you've gone about this in the wrong order. The interaction of geography and meteorology will determine the climate. The climate will, in turn, inform where certain landscape features, like forests, grow.

At this point, you're better off deciding what kind of weather would have produced each region. Gledding Forest, for example, strikes me as being a temperate region. ToRaver forest would be warmer, perhaps even tropical at the northern end.

Also, where are the prevailing winds coming from?

Rhynn
2013-05-06, 09:12 AM
I've got some old AD&D books that deal with this, from air currents over oceans to where rain falls. If no one else can help, I can dig them out and provide some ideas.

Basically, you're going to have rainfall on one side of the mountains, and usually less (quite dry) on the other... but the main island is so small, there might be rainfall on both sides. From mountains, the water flows down (duh), which would create something like the Entois Fens when it can't drain into the ocean fast enough.

Your map is vague enough that I doubt there's going to be any obvious mistakes on there. Although there's a point about forests: excepting unfriendly soil, almost all lowlands will be forested until the forests are cut down. Seriously, people think of forests as a separate terrain, but it's more like the default terrain. (Anybody else living in Finland can vouch for this!) Usually, forests on maps imply untouched and uninhabited regions. Even in inhabited rural regions, outside of the immediately vicinity of villages, there's going to be forests. (Feudal manors had to assart - cut down - trees at a regular pace to keep them from encroaching on fields.)

Awesome map, by the way. I am effin' jealous. Is that all done by hand or with a program?

Zahhak
2013-05-06, 09:18 AM
If you get me an outline of continents with mountains and some approximation of distance from the equator I can get you a basic idea of where what kind of climate types there would be.

Oh, and that forest on the left side of the continent? That's a desert, fyi.

Scow2
2013-05-06, 09:47 AM
Your map is vague enough that I doubt there's going to be any obvious mistakes on there. Although there's a point about forests: excepting unfriendly soil, almost all lowlands will be forested until the forests are cut down. Seriously, people think of forests as a separate terrain, but it's more like the default terrain. (Anybody else living in Finland can vouch for this!) Usually, forests on maps imply untouched and uninhabited regions. Even in inhabited rural regions, outside of the immediately vicinity of villages, there's going to be forests. (Feudal manors had to assart - cut down - trees at a regular pace to keep them from encroaching on fields.)
What's the term for assuming that the rest of the word's climates and biospheres act just like the one you live in? Forests may be the default terrain in some areas, but that's not true for everywhere. Ever heard of the American Great Plains, Mongolian Steppes, or African Savannah? There tend to be a few clumps and lines of trees, but it's largely just broad, flat (or rolling) expanses of grassland (With a lot of the forests being man-made).

Baj
2013-05-06, 11:21 AM
First off, very nice map!

I’ll be honest, most of the time I’m making a setting I make up the climates and weather patterns I want to exist first (within reason) and then try to justify why they’re there. So if you want a desert or a forest in a certain area where a climate/weather model wouldn’t support it I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

Boiled down to its very simplest, weather is about air currents, moisture in the air, and heat. Personally, I wouldn’t worry about the heat aspect much besides saying the closer to the poles you get the colder it is, unless you want to get really technical. Basically as the wind moves over the ocean it picks up moisture. This moisture eventually condenses and falls as precipitation (what type depends on the temperature). Mountains can interfere in this transfer by creating what’s called a “rain shadow” (several people above me have already described the effect without using the name). Basically as wind forces air up a mountain the air cools due to decreasing air pressure and temperature. The cooling air causes water to condense and fall, leaving the air considerably drier after it crosses the mountains. As others have said, this basically means that one side of a mountain range is usually considerably wetter than the other.

So the first step in figuring out how your weather pattern works (in the most basic sense) is to decide which way the wind usually blows. After that, follow the wind from the ocean across the land. Once you hit a mountain range, the land in front of the range should get fairly regular precipitation while the land behind the range should be fairly arid. I wouldn't worry too much about precipitation patterns besides that. Just make up what you need to fit what you want.

If you have any questions or want to get more technical then that feel free to ask! Honestly, weather and climate isn't my field of expertise, but I know enough to be dangerous.

CoffeeIncluded
2013-05-06, 01:24 PM
I find that an ecology textbook is your best friend here. Also, great job with the map, it looks fantastic.

Sith_Happens
2013-05-06, 07:32 PM
Does the mountain-range-sized sea serpent have a breath weapon? Because that could possibly affect some things depending on what kind and how often it uses it.:smalltongue:

Slipperychicken
2013-05-06, 07:56 PM
Does the mountain-range-sized sea serpent have a breath weapon? Because that could possibly affect some things depending on what kind and how often it uses it.:smalltongue:

Question I'd ask first is: What does it eat? :smalleek:

Jeff the Green
2013-05-06, 10:27 PM
Anyway, I'm certainly no expert, but as far as realism is concerned, I think you've gone about this in the wrong order. The interaction of geography and meteorology will determine the climate. The climate will, in turn, inform where certain landscape features, like forests, grow.

At this point, you're better off deciding what kind of weather would have produced each region. Gledding Forest, for example, strikes me as being a temperate region. ToRaver forest would be warmer, perhaps even tropical at the northern end.

One of the nice things about having a degree in ecology is that I can justify forest/not forest almost regardless of rainfall. For example, I live in a rainforest and also two hours from a desert that's partially forested. They're just very different kinds of forests. One you basically need a machete, boots, and overalls to get through because of the spiky underbrush, while the other you can almost sprint at full speed through. At the same time, there's parts of that desert that are strictly scrubland, and I'm a few minutes away from an area that, entirely naturally, is (temperate, very wet) savannah. It has as much to do with geology and natural history as the climate.

What I can't figure out very well is what kind of forest/plains/hills each region should be. I imagine Tokaver Forest (the lowercase 'k's are a little wonky in this font, but I like it well enough to forgive it that foible) will be tropical rainforest giving way to cloudforest as it moves up the mountains, but beyond that I'm a little stuck.

The other thing is where there's going to be the four seasons, where rainy/dry, and where monsoons.


If you get me an outline of continents with mountains and some approximation of distance from the equator I can get you a basic idea of where what kind of climate types there would be.

Oh, and that forest on the left side of the continent? That's a desert, fyi.

Well, it's there on the map, and the top of the map is at ~5-10 degrees south of the equator. What more do you need? I'd really appreciate your help.

And it just occurred to me that that might be the case. I have a bit of Northern Hemisphere bias, and forgot that that's about where the Atacama desert is.


What's the term for assuming that the rest of the word's climates and biospheres act just like the one you live in? Forests may be the default terrain in some areas, but that's not true for everywhere. Ever heard of the American Great Plains, Mongolian Steppes, or African Savannah? There tend to be a few clumps and lines of trees, but it's largely just broad, flat (or rolling) expanses of grassland (With a lot of the forests being man-made).

Parochialism, probably, though that has distinctly negative connotations. One of the nice things about living in the Pacific Northwest is that it's one of the few places in the world that makes it so you can't be parochial about climate. Everything, else, sure, but never that.


Does the mountain-range-sized sea serpent have a breath weapon? Because that could possibly affect some things depending on what kind and how often it uses it.:smalltongue:

10d100 damage plus hurricane-force winds in a 1-mile cone. Thankfully it has a 100d100 year recharge time.


Question I'd ask first is: What does it eat? :smalleek:

Islands.

And thanks for the praise, everyone. :smallredface: I made it in Photoshop (CS 5, I think).
Most of the detail comes from these (http://starraven.deviantart.com/art/Calligraphic-Cartography-Brush-153063338) brushes.
I had a rough idea of the continents' shapes, and then used Filter->Render->Clouds/Difference Clouds followed by posterization or thresholds to get fractalish coasts. Then I traced over the edges with a blotchy brush.
The parchment texture I got with this (http://www.cartographersguild.com/tutorials-how/6411-creating-parchment-texture-photoshop.html) method.
The water stains and aging are just clouds with a Color Burn blend, with a mask to let me control its transparency in different areas (e.g. more opaque over Ammyr, less opaque over some of the darker colors).
Map shading is just fill-color with different blending.
The mountains and trees are a mixture of carefully positioned/judiciously erased stamps, hand-coloring, and paintbucket, which took ffffffffoooooorrrrreeeeeevvvvvveeeerrrrr. I'm pretty sure there's a better way to do it, but I couldn't think of it.

Zahhak
2013-05-06, 11:28 PM
Well, it's there on the map, and the top of the map is at ~5-10 degrees south of the equator. What more do you need? I'd really appreciate your help.

I just want an outline of the continents with a mark to indicate where mountain ranges are because I plan on doodling all over your map to show where different climate types can be found. Granted, this would assume that the planet in question is Earth sized, at the same distance as the Earth from the Sun, and circles a star of the same size as the Sun, and rotates the same speed and direction as the Earth on its pole (which, incidentally, is at the same angle as the Earth) and around its star.


And it just occurred to me that that might be the case. I have a bit of Northern Hemisphere bias, and forgot that that's about where the Atacama desert is.

Not "might", "would". At that latitude, the prevailing winds would be coming from the other side of the continent, and any moisture would get dropped on that side of the continent. You would have a continent effect (like what you have in the Russian steppe) and a mountain shadow effect. That region would be right about the driest place in your world. Like the Atacama desert, you should basically expect no precipitation for decades on end.

Jeff the Green
2013-05-06, 11:32 PM
Will this work?
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/046/8/6/adem_campaign_map__draft_2_by_jeffthegreen-d4pw0w3.jpg

If not, I'll go in and hide a few layers, but that will take a little while to do and upload.

Zahhak
2013-05-06, 11:47 PM
First of all: holy crap is that big.

In terms of what makes my life the easiest, a white background with white lines for where the continent is, and a gray area where mountains are. I'm going to do this in paint, so it wont be pretty

Jeff the Green
2013-05-06, 11:55 PM
Good lord, you're right. This is a much more manageable size.

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu39/JeffreyTheGreen/AdemMapdrawingBW_zpsa2700711.png

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 12:39 AM
I'll have something up for you ASAP.

Which will probably be before this time tomorrow.

Jeff the Green
2013-05-07, 12:40 AM
Awesome, thank you!

Zahhak
2013-05-07, 11:53 PM
Sorry, I managed to be a lot more busy then I expected to be today. I will your climate map posted asap

Jeff the Green
2013-05-09, 12:35 AM
Don't worry about it; I'm not in any particular hurry. Thank you for the help!

Zahhak
2013-05-09, 01:03 AM
I usually pride myself on punctuality. I decided to spin this off into a project in the homebrew section so I posted a key and an explanation of the different climate types, hit submit... and apparently it didn't submit. Very frustrating.

Waspinator
2013-05-09, 03:35 AM
There's always the fantasy method: deserts are areas with an alignment to the plane of fire, oceans to the plain of water, areas with a lot of plants and animals to the positive energy plane, etc.

EccentricCircle
2013-05-09, 04:18 AM
It is indeed a very nice map.

A couple of specific points:

I'd say that your taiga forest goes too far south, you should probably have it stopping before the mountain range, with tundra and permafrost to the south of that.
As others have mentioned there probably needs to be more desert and plains in the centre of the continent, and the mountain range at the far right of the map will likely have a pretty massive rainshadow as well.
I'd move the forest on the main continent a bit further south and specify that the centre is desert or wasteland of some sort.


Some more general waffling:
Its also worth thinking about the extent of your mountains, where are the highest regions, are there any plateaus like tibet on Earth. you should have regions of foothills that then get higher becoming proper mountians. I tend not to like the mass of triangles approach to mapping mountain ranges, unless those are literally the summits being marked, but I'm an Environmental Scientist, so am more fond of contour lines than most people. At this scale it doesn't make much difference. (Edit, I'm definitely not criticising the way you have done your mountains. rereading it I' concerned it comes across that way, but that wasn't the intent.)

In very general terms climate can be defined as a series of bands where different biomes are predominant.
broadly speaking from equator to pole you will get something like:

Tropical Rainforest
Savanah
Desert
Mediterranian vegetation
temperate grasslands and forests
Taiga or boreal forests
Tundra
Ice sheets

Of course thats very generalised, and may well get me shouted at by other Ecologists and Geographers. Altitude has an important effect on the type of climate, and there are massive differences between continental and maritime areas. Wikipedia naturally has a lot more information including a nice map of Earth's biome distribution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biome#Biome_classification_schemes

Zahhak
2013-05-10, 03:35 PM
Map:

http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss99/Wo1f-man/Workystuff_zps4561d551.png

Key and such here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282969)

Jeff the Green
2013-05-10, 03:58 PM
Oh, wow. That's awesome, thank you!

Fibinachi
2013-05-10, 04:12 PM
That's a beautiful map.
Nice job.

Whenever I mess around with large landmasses for fun, I've found a few random guides. I know you wrote you were not a visual person, but still, perhaps this link can shed some light on your landmass. I've found I could easily use it as a step by step guide, and then have enough realism that way.

http://what-if.xkcd.com/10/

Alternatively, you can just say "Ah, yes. That sure is some weird climate. Wizards did it".

Asmayus
2013-05-10, 06:24 PM
That's a beautiful map.
Nice job.

Whenever I mess around with large landmasses for fun, I've found a few random guides. I know you wrote you were not a visual person, but still, perhaps this link can shed some light on your landmass. I've found I could easily use it as a step by step guide, and then have enough realism that way.

http://what-if.xkcd.com/10/

Alternatively, you can just say "Ah, yes. That sure is some weird climate. Wizards did it".

oh wow, that was an awesome read. I'm building a fantasy world myself so it's given me much to think on :)

Avilan the Grey
2013-05-11, 08:58 AM
Speaking of this... One basic question: Since this is fantasy, is the world a globe?

Zahhak
2013-05-11, 12:07 PM
For my climate maps I am assuming that the planet is a globe the size, tilt, and rotation speed of the Earth, revolving at the same speed as the Earth, the same distance as the Earth from the Sun around a star the same size as the Sun. Because when you change any of those, I pretty go from being able to make informed guesses, to just making crap up.

Alejandro
2013-05-11, 12:25 PM
Great looking map!

I guess I will ask the impolite question: Are your players going to care about this (weather and ecology)? If not, do you care sufficiently about it to put in the extra work?

Zahhak
2013-05-11, 01:00 PM
It took me like an hour to do. For whatever thats worth.

And I know when I see a world map and there's a desert where there should be a rainforest, I definitely say so. But then, I'm a abrasive jerk, so what do I know?

Jeff the Green
2013-05-11, 05:43 PM
Great looking map!

I guess I will ask the impolite question: Are your players going to care about this (weather and ecology)? If not, do you care sufficiently about it to put in the extra work?

Maybe, maybe not. I mostly play on PbP, and in any case will be posting the world in the Homebrew forums here, so I want to include as few bits that will pull people like Zahhak out of their suspension of disbelief. So I'm trying to be careful to think through the biology (which is my field of expertise), geography, and anthropology of the world, since those are the three areas characters interact with most.

shadow_archmagi
2013-05-11, 06:35 PM
Personally, I'd just design the climates however I wanted, and describe them as areas that're supernaturally attuned to the plane of cold/fire/mosquitoes.

Waspinator
2013-05-12, 04:29 AM
I never want to go to the Elemental Plane of Mosquito-Filled Swamps.

Sith_Happens
2013-05-12, 11:46 PM
I never want to go to the Elemental Plane of Mosquito-Filled Swamps.

Still beats the Elemental Plane of Those Giant Mosquitoes from Jumanji.

avr
2013-05-13, 11:35 PM
Just one slightly off-topic thought. If that map stretches from 10 S to the southern sea ice (with no polar continent) there's some serious differences in scale across it. Unless your world is cylindrical, of course.

Jeff the Green
2013-05-13, 11:39 PM
Just one slightly off-topic thought. If that map stretches from 10 S to the southern sea ice (with no polar continent) there's some serious differences in scale across it. Unless your world is cylindrical, of course.

Yeah, there's some sort of projection going on (since I don't care all that much about distances except between cities), but there's a polar continent that you pretty much can't get to because of the sea ice and primitive sailing tech.

Slipperychicken
2013-05-13, 11:41 PM
Unless your world is cylindrical, of course.

That would be so awesome. Just imagine the sensation of jumping that corner... Literally leaping off the side of the world. Even a ship traversing that would be like riding a roller-coaster.

Now I'm imagining planets in all kinds of strange shapes...

Jeff the Green
2013-05-13, 11:44 PM
That would be so awesome. Just imagine the sensation of jumping that corner... Literally leaping off the side of the world. Even a ship traversing that would be like riding a roller-coaster.

Assuming gravity worked the same way, you couldn't sail over the edge unless the world were completely covered in water, since the edges would be the furthest points from the center of the planet. Also, walking toward the endcaps would be uphill.

Slipperychicken
2013-05-13, 11:56 PM
Assuming gravity worked the same way, you couldn't sail over the edge unless the world were completely covered in water, since the edges would be the furthest points from the center of the planet. Also, walking toward the endcaps would be uphill.

If gravity worked the same way, it would probably have formed as a spheroid. You could always say a god/spooky cosmic horror/wizard did it and altered the gravitational field to fit the weird shapes his planets made.

I think I hear a catgirl's tortured screams in the distance..

Jeff the Green
2013-05-14, 12:01 AM
I think I hear a catgirl's tortured screams in the distance..

Well, let's see if we can't put it out of its misery. :smallamused:


If gravity worked the same way, it would probably have formed as a spheroid. You could always say a god/spooky cosmic horror/wizard did it and altered the gravitational field to fit the weird shapes his planets made.

A planet made of something ultra-light and strong might be able to handle the forces. Certainly one made/held together with enough force effects (3.5-style) would. Perhaps you could make one with enough immovable rods; gravity's actually a very weak force, so it certainly can't make the DC 30 check, and the 8000 lb. weight limit only causes the rod to fall to the ground, so if it's embedded in the earth there's no effect.

Zahhak
2013-05-14, 01:00 AM
Just one slightly off-topic thought. If that map stretches from 10 S to the southern sea ice (with no polar continent) there's some serious differences in scale across it.

That's only about 50* of latitude. A map of North America from the southern edge of Mexico to Baffin/Banks/Victoria Islands off the north coast of Canada would be 60* of latitude and have fairly little distortion.


Unless your world is cylindrical, of course.

That would be so awesome. Just imagine the sensation of jumping that corner... Literally leaping off the side of the world. Even a ship traversing that would be like riding a roller-coaster.

This seems like the kind of thing for whatif-xkcd.

avr
2013-05-14, 01:57 AM
That's only about 50* of latitude. A map of North America from the southern edge of Mexico to Baffin/Banks/Victoria Islands off the north coast of Canada would be 60* of latitude and have fairly little distortion.
I was assuming there wasn't a polar continent, which would suggest that the southern sea ice wouldn't extend as far towards the equator as 60 S. If there is one, OK, that could reasonably be the southern limit of the map.

Also maps covering the area you describe seem to rather exaggerate the size of Greenland, say.


IIRC at least one version of Runequest's Glorantha was that it was a slightly convex cube, with the known world on one face. Somehow the edges of the face were water rather than the mountains normal gravity would make them. Can't imagine what that'd do to the trade winds. The writers were more interested in social sciences than the physical ones as you may guess.

Waspinator
2013-05-14, 03:41 AM
How about a cylindrical world where the people live on the inside? Spin it fast enough and centrifugal effects will fake gravity for you.

Zahhak
2013-05-14, 11:50 AM
I was assuming there wasn't a polar continent, which would suggest that the southern sea ice wouldn't extend as far towards the equator as 60 S. If there is one, OK, that could reasonably be the southern limit of the map.

Different assumptions, I guess.


Also maps covering the area you describe seem to rather exaggerate the size of Greenland, say.

Well, you're trying to represent a 3D spheroid on a 2d plane, there will always be distortion, and the larger the map, the larger the distortion. I just mean that a map that sized would have minimal distortion.

Nymrod
2013-05-14, 12:52 PM
Or you could have a globe of infinite radius so any part of the surface would essentially be flat!

You could have a hollow cylindrical world if some separate force kept pushing gravity aside, like a massive water current passing through the cylinder (maybe a vortex from the Plane of Water traveling up towards an outer plane or something).

I have a moon on my homebrew that is essentially sectors of concentric spherical shells. The outer shells are fairly large, the place is inhabited on the inner side of the shells and lighted from the core (which is the gate through which all souls pass to oblivion).

Slipperychicken
2013-05-14, 01:47 PM
This seems like the kind of thing for whatif-xkcd.

You have falsely attributed my quote to Jeff. How dare you steal my forum glory! :smalltongue: I recommend right-clicking the "quote" button to open into a new tab, then copy+paste (ctrl+C/ctrl+V) that quote into the post you wish to create.

Lord Torath
2013-05-14, 01:53 PM
All of these 'crazy' planet ideas work perfectly fine in Spelljammer! You just say it works because it works. :smalltongue: