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Mike_G
2006-11-25, 05:22 PM
We have a monk in our game (a campaing I'm not DMing) who has taken the Vow of poverty, and seems to be freaking bulletproof.

I read the specs for the Vow and he's not cheating or adding things that don't stack, but he's way out of the league ofm the rest of the party.

Now, I think it's just too much synergy for a Monk.

A Monk gets and AC bonus and Wis to AC to make up for not wearing armor, higher damage from Unarmed Attack to make up for not using weapons, ki strike to compensate for magic weapons.

The VoP gives him an AC bonus, exalted strike, stat boosts and save boosts to make up for his lack of items.

This combines to make a character who has no real disadvantage from the Vow, and effectively double all his bonuses anyway.

A Paladin who took VoP would get the AC bouns which would compensate for his lack of armor, but not the class AC bouns from the monk. He'd also do probably 1d6 with his simple, non magical melee weapon, instead of the monks increasing damage, like 1d10 by mid levels. No mount, no magic sword, etc.

Anyone else have thoughts?

Yuki Akuma
2006-11-25, 05:31 PM
Pit him against a creature with a fly speed.

Actual content: Vow of Poverty is not overpowered. In fact, it's quite underpowered; the bonuses are fixed, and the character never gets really useful abilities even a fighter with enough equipment can get, such as flight.

A properly equipped monk will outshine a VoP monk every time.

Monks are generally bulletproof; that's their thing. They can't do anything else worth a damn, however, such as, say, hurting things; 2d6 isn't that much when the fighter has a +4 flaming burst shocking scythe of dancing and a +5 keen flaming burst geatsword.

Thomas
2006-11-25, 05:36 PM
The Vow is slightly weaker (and amazingly lacking in versatility) than having magic items according to your level. A monk with +10 bracers of armor, a +5 ring of protection, +6 gloves of dexterity, a +6 pearl of wisdom, and so on is going to be tougher and better than the VoP monk. (If you add stuff from other books, the monk with equipment can be ridiculously powerful.)

Meanwhile, the VoP monk can only run around and jump. No flight, no nothing. He may be fast, but his mobility is poor.

Every character class needs gold - monks for an array of boosting items - and every character class suffers pretty much the same for VoP. (Except for druids; wildshaping makes up for lack of mobility, and you retain the VoP bonuses when wildshaped. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that you don't get the benefits of magical items while in another shape/form.)

Also, good luck getting through DR X/silver or X/cold iron with that monk?

Is the rest of the party getting exactly (or more than) the WBL gold from the DMG? If they're getting less, the monk is going to be more powerful.

The Vow is supposed precisely make up for the lost benefits of magic items. You get an AC bonus to replace the AC items you're not using (which would give you a much, much higher bonus; up to +20, easy, vs. VoPs +15 by 20th level), you get some stat bonuses to replace those for items (+8, +6, +4, and +2 for the VoP; +11 to Dex and Wis, and smaller bonuses to others for a monk with items), etc.

It's just not that powerful, compared to a character of the same level with the appropriate items.

Again, in a campaign where the party don't get their WBL "allocation" (or where they get stupid or useless items), the VoP is going to look "too powerful"; becuase the VoP character is getting his full share of bonuses.

Mike_G
2006-11-25, 05:47 PM
I'm not saying VoP is overpowered. I'm saying that it benefits a Monk much, much more than it would benefit say, a fighter, and the monk gives up less.

At 9th level (the level we're at) the VoP AC bouns is +7. Equal to a +3 chain shirt, with no armor check penalties. Not overpowered at that level.

A VoP fighter would have an AC of 17 + Dex mod.

The Monk has an AC of 17 + (Dex mond) +1 (Monk AC bouns) + (Wis Bouns)

The fighter's damage is 1d6 (simple weapon. They almost all do 1d6) +Str bonus. Nothing to defeat DR.

The Monk's damage is 1d10 unarmed. Ki strike:magic to overcome resistance.

So, VoP for a fighter, greatly underpowered. Much better to gte some magic plate and a +3 Flaming Burst sword. VoP for a Monk, not so bad.

Yuki Akuma
2006-11-25, 05:50 PM
Yes, yes, everyone knows fighters suck. What else is new? Are you going to point out that a wizard without a spellbook is weaker, too?

Thomas
2006-11-25, 05:50 PM
Well, yes. VoP makes any fighter, paladin, or wizard pretty useless. Those classes are totally dependent on gold and equipment, after all. Who's surprised?

But you're contradictory now...


We have a monk in our game (a campaing I'm not DMing) who has taken the Vow of poverty, and seems to be freaking butletproof.

... he's way out of the league ofm the rest of the party.


I'm not saying VoP is overpowered.

...

So, VoP for a fighter, greatly underpowered.

Which is it? Is the monk too good, or is he just better than a useless VoP fighter would be?

Does everyone in the party have VoP or something?

Mike_G
2006-11-25, 06:12 PM
Well, yes. VoP makes any fighter, paladin, or wizard pretty useless. Those classes are totally dependent on gold and equipment, after all. Who's surprised?

But you're contradictory now...





Which is it? Is the monk too good, or is he just better than a useless VoP fighter would be?

Does everyone in the party have VoP or something?

Ah. I just reread my post.

AC wise, he's way beyond the rest of us. With the stat boosts, plus dumping a high stat in Wis, his AC is 30 ish, compared to low 20s for the rest of us. This means that either he never gets hit, or the baddies with high ennough bonuses to hit him always hit us. His damgae is low but other than that, his nigh invulnerability makes me question it.

I may DM for this group and I want to be prepared.

And I never said Fighter was weak, so I have no freaking clue where that came from. I did say a VoP Monk will kick a VoP fighter's ass, since the dependance on gear is different.

I'm just saying I think the Vow, not being a class ability but something for everybody, benefits monks disproportionately.

Thomas
2006-11-25, 06:15 PM
What levels?

Looking at my own builds (with the 15-14-13-12-10-8 array and WBL by the book), I've got a 10th-level monk with AC 26 easy, a 10th-level duskblade with AC 27 without spells, a 7th-level dwarf fighter/barbarian with AC 24, and an 11th-level swashbuckler/fighter/duelist with AC 27 prior to fighting defensively. Compared to those, an AC of 30 for an AC specialist ( = monk) doesn't seem that odd.

Mike_G
2006-11-25, 06:26 PM
What levels?

Looking at my own builds (with the 15-14-13-12-10-8 array and WBL by the book), I've got a 10th-level monk with AC 26 easy, a 10th-level duskblade with AC 27 without spells, a 7th-level dwarf fighter/barbarian with AC 24, and an 11th-level swashbuckler/fighter/duelist with AC 27 prior to fighting defensively. Compared to those, an AC of 30 for an AC specialist ( = monk) doesn't seem that odd.

7-9th level party. Maybe low on the magic items, couldn't tell you average wealth. None of these were deliberate "builds." They've been played and have what they have. Not sure how WBL equals out.

I'm playing a Beguiler, and since I fight much less, it doesn't really affect me, but the chain shirt barabarian has an AC around 22, the dex based fighter has about a 24. They only have armor +dex+maybe a weak ring of Protection or amulet of Nat Armor. He's got Monk AC + VopP Armor +VoP Nat armor(or maybe some other exalted thing)+Dex+Wis. It all seems to stack and be 6-10 points higher than everyone else.

I'm not feeling neglected, I just don't want to be screwed when it's my turn to DM and I can have the bad guys attack bonus cranked up to possibly hit the Monk, or low to maybe not hit the barabarian on a roll of 5.

Thomas
2006-11-25, 06:31 PM
Sounds like the rest of you are underpowered. Like I said, the VoP is balanced on the assumption that the other characters are getting gold as per table 5-1 (page 135) in the DMG. See page 54 for some elaboration.

If the PCs don't get precisely that much gold, the VoP will NOT be balanced, and should NOT be used or allowed. If the PCs get more, VoP will be too weak; if they get less, VoP will be too powerful. It's as simple - and as absolute - as that. (Note, also, that the VoP character has to get a share of treasure, all of which he/she must donate to charity, and none of which he/she or the other PCs can use.)

The Valiant Turtle
2006-11-25, 06:37 PM
I believe the VoP was designed to allow characters who might choose to go without equipment for role-playing reasons to still be mechanically viable. Classes who a equipment dependent would be mostly out of thier mind to use the VoP.

One thing to keep in mind is that for what the goal of the VoP is (make a decent melee fighter) it is reasonably well optimized. If the rest of the party is clueless regarding character optimization, then the VoP Monk will be much better off. Even a normally strong class can suck if the player doesn't at least do some minimal char-oping. And the VoP is very dependent on the Wealth by Level guidelines (which has been beaten to death already).

It takes a pretty good DM to make sure that a VoP character stays reasonably in balance with the rest of the group and watch that they don't end up claiming the VoPs share of the treasure. I've decided to ban the VoP in my games simply because I know I'm not a good enough DM to manage it.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-25, 06:42 PM
Yeah, from the sounds of it, the problem isn't VoP--it's that the other characters don't have enough wealth for their level. A 10th level character's items and gold should add up to 49,000 gp. AC 22 and 24 are rather low for level 9 characters, too, for the most part, although it sounds about right for the barbarian.

What's more, monks are good at staying alive. That's what monks do. On the other hand, they're not so good at contributing to anything in combat.

In my tabletop game, my wizard puts a Luminous Armor (BoED) on the monk, making him nigh-unhittable by most baddies... who don't even try, focusing on the melee rogue or the swashbuckler or me (presuming I haven't disabled them yet). Meanwhile, the monk zips around taking out the groups of weak, low-CR critters the module we're playing has, or providing flanking for the rogue.

StGlebidiah
2006-11-25, 07:00 PM
I think we've all lost track of the main point Mike_G is making at this point, which is that VoP is better for Monks than, say, Fighters.

Well, yes and no.

On the face of it, it does look that way, because the Monk isn't supposed to wear armour anyways, and therefore has class features to make up for it. Give him VoP, and suddenly he has these class features, IN ADDITION TO VoP features that are intended to MAKE UP FOR a lack of ARMOUR (which he wasn't wearing anyways, but with VoP he "is"). The Fighter taking VoP gives up his armour and gets the VoP features which replace it, essentially coming out "even". I think this is essentially one of Mike's arguments (please correct me if I'm wrong here!).

However, in actuality, it doesn't really work out like that, simply because there ARE ITEMS Monks can BUY and WEAR that are NOT ARMOUR which increase the Monk's AC. Bracers of Natural Armour, Rings of Protection, hell, Animated Sheilds (correct me if Monks can't use these, but I mean, you just let it Animate for you and lack of prof shouldn't even matter), stat-increase items (an admittedly weaker argument, because VoP also provides stat bonuses to precisely make up for these, but a non-VoP Monk could buy MORE stat bonuses than VoP provides), Monk's Belts, or any other number of handy items which Monks with Money (MwM!) can buy to make up for the lack of armour, and meet or surpass the AC bonuses from VoP.

Mike_G
2006-11-25, 07:09 PM
Yes. That was precisely my argument.

It seems like the monk is being compensated for stuff he wouldn't use anyway.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-25, 07:11 PM
Except that, of course, the monk's Wisdom-to-AC isn't nearly as much as enchanted armor provides. The VoP monk gets a few points a fighter wouldn't get... but then, that's part of what the monk's abilities are. The monk also has Evasion; the VoP fighter doesn't.

VoP druids are scary; the monk's pretty much where he's supposed to be. Not Dying is the what the monk does in combat.
Well, unless he goes up against a good fighter.

Thomas
2006-11-25, 07:16 PM
Yes. That was precisely my argument.

It seems like the monk is being compensated for stuff he wouldn't use anyway.

No. Again, he's being (insufficiently) compensated for things he would wear: a ring of protection, bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, etc. A 20th-level monk will have a far, far better AC without Vow of Poverty than with it. (The same may not go for all levels, but on the high end it's going to be very true.)

Mike_G
2006-11-25, 07:20 PM
Except that, of course, the monk's Wisdom-to-AC isn't nearly as much as enchanted armor provides. The VoP monk gets a few points a fighter wouldn't get... but then, that's part of what the monk's abilities are. The monk also has Evasion; the VoP fighter doesn't.

VoP druids are scary; the monk's pretty much where he's supposed to be. Not Dying is the what the monk does in combat.
Well, unless he goes up against a good fighter.

Well, VoP cotributes 8 points to AC at his level. That's replacing heavy armor, or light armor with a decent enchantment. That's logical. I don't know if a 9th level non-VoP monk would have +8 to his armor form just items. (+8 bacers are expensive. Bracers + a ring and amulet maybe, but I think that's still a bit high)

His Monkeyness adds 6 (+1 just 'cause he's a 9th level Monk and +5 from Wis, since he dumped his stats boosts there.)


These form an evil synergy, and I wonder if they were intended to stack like that.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-25, 07:25 PM
He'd have the Wisdom bonus whether he has VoP or not. At level 9, by the WBL guidelines, he should have 49,000 gp. That'll buy him Bracers of Armor +3 (9k), an Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8k), a Ring of Protection +2 (8k) for starers, besides stat boosters. And how about either a lot of Potions of Shield (+4 when he needs it) or a Ring of Force Shield (+2)? WIth the ring, that's +9 AC, if he's interested in pumping AC, with enough money left over for a stat-booster. Compare to VoP's 8 points. The monk bonus, he gets either way.

Mike_G
2006-11-25, 07:32 PM
He'd have the Wisdom bonus whether he has VoP or not. At level 9, by the WBL guidelines, he should have 49,000 gp. That'll buy him Bracers of Armor +3 (9k), an Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8k), a Ring of Protection +2 (8k) for starers, besides stat boosters. And how about either a lot of Potions of Shield (+4 when he needs it) or a Ring of Force Shield (+2)? WIth the ring, that's +9 AC, if he's interested in pumping AC, with enough money left over for a stat-booster. Compare to VoP's 8 points. The monk bonus, he gets either way.

Well, the stat boosts are not relly relevant, since he can't have items, but he does get the extra boosts from the Vow. I assume these are compatible.

I just think "Hey. Monk's run around in their pyjamas. They need AC boots." combined with "Hey. these guys eschew posessions, like armor. They need an AC boost." is kinda redundant.

Your above example, 25,000 worth of items gets him within spitting disatnce of the VoP, and that's half his WBL, so I guess that's reasonable.

Maybe we're just po'.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-25, 07:38 PM
Well, the stat boosts are not relly relevant, since he can't have items, but he does get the extra boosts from the Vow. I assume these are compatible.

I just think "Hey. Monk's run around in their pyjamas. They need AC boots." combined with "Hey. these guys eschew posessions, like armor. They need an AC boost." is kinda redundant.

Your above example, 25,000 worth of items gets him within spitting disatnce of the VoP, and that's half his WBL, so I guess that's reasonable.

Maybe we're just po'.

Within spitting distance? +9>+8. Money, following the WBL guidelines, makes him come out to approximately the same AC as the Vow. That's exactly how it should be.

You guys are just poor. Of course, if the DM is intentionally running a low-wealth campaign, he probably shouldn't have allowed Vow of Poverty. If everyone else's gear adds up to, oh, 25k each, then of course the monk's better off, his Vow is roughly equivalent to 49k.

But, no. VoP + monk is not cheesy in any way. It's all "supposed" to stack.

Noneoyabizzness
2006-11-25, 07:58 PM
bah to the monk vop

psionic vop will kill you evil do'ers ten times before you hit the ground. who needs books, material components or expensive foci? and the soulknife will rock as you use the enhancements from the class to get powers on your weapon and the feat to do the rest for the enhancement bonus.

The_Last_Night
2006-11-25, 08:02 PM
... Yeah, a psion without power stones and dorjes sounds real nice. Not. And Soulknife? Are you kidding me? Soulknife is already weak, and the VoP's enhancement of its mind blade would overlap with the Soulknife's +4 at 20th level (but not with the +5 in properties). You'd basically be giving up half of the Soulknife's main feature. All for a set of bonuses less than what magic items can get you, and far less diverse (for example, how are you going to fight high-level enemies without, oh, flight?).

Noneoyabizzness
2006-11-25, 08:12 PM
... Yeah, a psion without power stones and dorjes sounds real nice. Not. And Soulknife? Are you kidding me? Soulknife is already weak, and the VoP's enhancement of its mind blade would overlap with the Soulknife's +4 at 20th level (but not with the +5 in properties). You'd basically be giving up half of the Soulknife's main feature. All for a set of bonuses less than what magic items can get you, and far less diverse (for example, how are you going to fight high-level enemies without, oh, flight?).

reverse that, but still +4 adjustible properties, maliable enhancements, ranged capacity with throw mind blade, (or soulbow class+5 arrows huzzah) far from useless.

The_Last_Night
2006-11-25, 08:17 PM
So it's better than a commoner, great. Throw Mind Blade doesn't give you much range. Soulbow is a much better class than Soul*knife*, and Soulknife 2 as a lead-in is likely all one should take with Soulbow. VoP is fairly significantly worse than equivalent gear at level 20, and is about the same but with fewer options at lower levels. Soulknife's already bad. VoP makes it worse, not better.

Jade_Tarem
2006-11-26, 02:34 AM
VoP is balanced on the assumption that you're playing some kind of base class, you need to kneel down right now and pray that he doesn't start on some monk/cleric/sacred fist thing - then you'll see what bulletproof really means.

I don't have the exact stats, but for one level fifteen in one of my games, combining that combo with with VoP pretty much filled in any weakness.

He could fly, fast, while being immune to, oh, pretty much everything interesting, and a lot of boring stuff too, like damage. I think all that he really had to worry about were really-high DC'd will save things.

To be more specific:

He could not be grappled, tripped, or slowed in any way.
He could not be diseased, poisoned, cursed... just about any seriously debilitating effect was out.
He could heal himself rapidly and use delay death to make sure that he would have time to heal.
He could outrun a horse. Actually, he could outrun a horse with the +30 speed horseshoes, too.
Most things requiring a fort save were of no consequence.
Almost anything requiring a will save was out, save for a high DC one.
Reflex save? Yeah - he had that and evasion too.
AC? - You don't want to know.
He could airwalk.
He could channel such small, harmless spells as flamestrike and harm through his fists, feet, spleen, whatever.
Oh yes - no eating, drinking, breathing, or sleeping.

Did he die? Yes - it was a comical mishap involving four krackens and a very strong lightning attack, and a seriously bad miscalc. on the Delay death timer... but I digress. You can see from the setup that he was approaching total twinkage already, but the VoP really filled in the gaps in his armor. That's really misusing it.

Tola
2006-11-26, 06:00 AM
...Sounds like your average 'Ancient master' type, really.

Closet_Skeleton
2006-11-26, 06:00 AM
Is Vow of Poverty too good for monks? I'll try and think what other core classes are like with it.

Wizard - Gets armour class bonuses like he needs but gets tons of weapon enhancements he doesn't and eschew materials limits you, especially since you need 2 feats to get Vow of Poverty in the first place. Unless you're able to get into that prestige class that Tatoos their spell book onto them you're pretty screwed. That only works if you use cheap ink as well.

Sorcerer - Same as wizard but slightly better.

Fighter - Bonus feats make up for wasting 2 feats of Vow of Poverty, bonus exalted feats from Vow of Poverty can help. Still won't save him though.

Barbarian - Spending 2 feats to take Vow of Poverty will hurt you if you want to get power attack and his other staple feats. Can help him since he doesn't want to run around in full plate.

Paladin - Depends on whether or no you want barding for that warhorse. Vow of Poverty and Paladin mesh well on characterisation but just doesn't cut like a Holy Avenger.

Cleric - Can lose out on armour, stat bonuses can help with spell casting and turning, bonus exalted feats usually help clerics. There are still some magic items that suit them better though.

Druid - Wouldn't wear much armour anyway. In wildshape he becomes too powerful.


Rogue - Can't even carry lockpicks

Vow of Poverty works well for monks, but that's because it gives tons of combat bonuses and monks are a combat class. Sacred fist and you get a monster but I always hated that class. I mean, you combine two classes that get 3/4 base attack and they get a full base attack Prc?

The main problem I have with vow of poverty is the problem I have with Dungeons and Dragons. Too much reliance on items. The great hero who's just a cookie cutter two-weapon power attacker who just happens to have a +5 flaming burst Thundering Greatsword and a +5 animated shield doesn't sound very 'epic' to me. Especially the way defense is entirely item based. Two 20th level fighters sparing without equipment will hit each other with all four attacks all the time. That's one of the reason's I've been playing d20 Modern more recently. Give them just a Masterwork Machine Pistol or Katana with a +3 bonus to attack by 15th level and they don't need anything else.

Ikkitosen
2006-11-26, 06:37 AM
I have to say that I have no problem with VoP being better for some classes (druid, monk) than others (fighter, rogue). I mean, Power Attack is better for some classes (full BAB) than others, but we aren't complaining about it, are we? In fact, Power Attack probably has more effect on game balance than VoP too!

Whamme
2006-11-26, 07:08 AM
Honestly, VoP is balanced for a monk and underpowered for anything else ('cept Druid, but Druids are broken out of the box).

I mean, if VoP compensated for not wearing armour AND for the armour not being enchanted, it would be overpowered, perhaps.

Seriously. What level is the monky in question? How much extra AC from VoP is he getting?

How many GP would you have to spend on Bracers/Rings/etc to match it?

How many GP is appropriate for that level?


Do the math. Just Do It.


Yes. He's better than a Fighter or Paladin would be - but do you honestly think they didn't consider the balance issue of a CORE CLASS FAMED FOR VOWS OF POVERTY IN THE FLAVOUR TEXT taking it?

Khantalas
2006-11-26, 07:52 AM
My DM got rid of "no nifty magical items" thing using a most weird solution that certainly made Vow of Poverty overpowered. And fit in with the concept of a monk.

Tattoo-ed items.

You want a cloak of flying? Someone would inscribe a tattoo of a dragon (or crane or hippogriff or any other flying thing) on the guy's back and he would fly. Shields on the forearms and, voila, Bracers of Armor.

Sure, you couldn't get into Tattooed Monk or Red Wizard, but my DM was a bit crazy.

MandibleBones
2006-11-26, 07:58 AM
Bah. VoP Human Psychic Warrior 1 / Ftr1 / Monk18. My name is Jet Li, and I'll be walking all over you today.

Khantalas
2006-11-26, 08:39 AM
Jet Li is a swordsage/warblade, not a monk. See Hero.

Noneoyabizzness
2006-11-26, 03:39 PM
Jet Li is a swordsage/warblade, not a monk. See Hero.

bah nobody should see hero

see bodyguard from beijing. ranger/monk gestalt

Puck
2006-11-26, 05:10 PM
The Vow of Poverty is designed to be balanced against a party of standard, by the book DMG wealth by level. If you are in a lower-than-average campaign, or a low magic campaign, the VoP will put the monk FAR above everyone else.

But the VoP is not broken, and the monk is not "double dipping." If you want to see vile double-dipping, let your VoP monk become a saint. Then he'll get his Wisdom bonus to AC twice: once as an Insight bonus, and once as an unnamed bonus.

Now THAT is double-dipping.

Telonius
2006-11-26, 10:40 PM
Yeah, from the sounds of it, the problem isn't VoP--it's that the other characters don't have enough wealth for their level. A 10th level character's items and gold should add up to 49,000 gp. AC 22 and 24 are rather low for level 9 characters, too, for the most part, although it sounds about right for the barbarian.

What's more, monks are good at staying alive. That's what monks do. On the other hand, they're not so good at contributing to anything in combat.

In my tabletop game, my wizard puts a Luminous Armor (BoED) on the monk, making him nigh-unhittable by most baddies... who don't even try, focusing on the melee rogue or the swashbuckler or me (presuming I haven't disabled them yet). Meanwhile, the monk zips around taking out the groups of weak, low-CR critters the module we're playing has, or providing flanking for the rogue.

I've played a VoP monk before, and that's approximately what he did too. He and the party Rogue became the general fighting combo. VoP is particularly good in the low levels, but becomes less so over time. At about level 12 or so you exhaust the useful Exalted feats, and are left with things that make you glow in the dark. (Literally).

Intuitive Strike provides synergy that's just as good as VoP does. In retrospect, if I'd just gotten that one feat and forgotten the Sacred Vow and VoP feats, it probably would have come out to an even more powerful Monk.

MandibleBones
2006-11-26, 10:51 PM
Now THAT is double-dipping.

Is there anything that says you can't do both?

Sactheminions
2006-11-28, 02:22 PM
VoP monks are great until you level enough that a few party members get really nice magic boosts rather than modest ones. The first Holy Avenger starts making the Po Folks look rather silly.

pestilenceawaits
2006-11-28, 02:43 PM
In my current campaign we have a cleric and barbarian with the VoP and they fit in fairly well. (this is a high magic campaign also). The Monk getting the best out of that feat doesn't seem to be much of a problem to me every class has feats that benefit them more than others. A wizard taking power attack seems silly because it doesn't have synergy with his bab but a fighter taking it makes complete sense.

Puck
2006-11-28, 03:25 PM
Is there anything that says you can't do both?

Please to clarify.

Both what, and what?

Saint, and VoP?

Or stack an unnamed bonus, and an Insight bonus?

Ramza00
2006-11-28, 03:38 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060609a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a
This text is from the above links, it isn't my own

Perfect Fit: Druid, Monk, Sorcerer. These classes allow you to fight well without weapons and don't rely much on armor for protection. Not too many druid spells have divine focus requirements (a divine focus is not a spell component), and for some of those, the focus is something natural like a pool of water. A sorcerer can just avoid choosing spells that require expensive components or a divine focus.
Some Problems, but Still a Pretty Good Fit: Bard, Ranger, Rogue. These classes have abilities that work well with no armor, and the characters can get by with simple weapons. They're not the optimal choices, but it doesn't hurt too badly. Bardic music can be done with singing and bards can choose non-focus-requiring spells.
You Can Make It Work, But It's a Big Handicap: Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin. These classes rely substantially on versatility in weapons and armor. Clerics have a lot of spells with divine foci, so it's hard to avoid them. Paladins and clerics cannot turn undead without a holy symbol.
Not in a Million Years: Wizard. Two words: no spellbook. 'Nuff said.usic can be done with singing and bards can choose non-focus-requiring spells.

NullAshton
2006-11-28, 04:11 PM
Look, you people. LACK OF MAGICAL ITEMS FOR FLIGHT IS NOT A BIG DEAL! You'll notice, that the common party involves a caster. Well, guess what, that caster can cast fly. And thus, you do not ever need magical items to fly, unless you're soloing.

Incidentally enough, sorcerers can still cast spells with expensive components(or focuses) with a vow of poverty. The item never actually goes into their possession, you see. They simply let the other people hold them or something.

...or you could just spend XP instead of gold. Which is listed under Vow of Poverty I believe.

Puck
2006-11-28, 04:16 PM
I built a Vow of Poverty Monk with the Winged Creature template (MM2?), although I asked the DM for permission to have his flight be an unexplained Wuxia-style of movement rather than wings. The mechanics didn't change, just the flavor.

It worked quite nicely.

Tormsskull
2006-11-28, 04:28 PM
To the OP, yes Monks benefit more from VoP than other classes. I wouldn't call it "double-dipping" because as a monk you are trading in magic items and their numerous usages for a set of bonuses as proscribed by the feat. But if you are going to ask who benefits more from VoP, a Monk or a Fighter I think it would be very easy to see the answer is Monk.

SpiderBrigade
2006-11-28, 04:37 PM
Personally it bugs me that wizards are so automatically excluded from VoP. I mean, is this a balance consideration? Then why are sorcs okay? It seems like there should at least be a feat or something that lets you use some kind of inexpensive spellbook or something. I mean, the BoED is so roleplay-centered anyway, it seems like it should be flexible enough to accomodate a "saintly ascetic wizard" character concept.

Khantalas
2006-11-28, 04:40 PM
I built a Vow of Poverty Monk with the Winged Creature template (MM2?), although I asked the DM for permission to have his flight be an unexplained Wuxia-style of movement rather than wings. The mechanics didn't change, just the flavor.

It worked quite nicely.

SS.

And why only monks, but not swordsages with the unarmed martial artist variant?

Indeed, I like the latter much better.

ShadowYRM
2006-11-29, 08:35 AM
Some various Points.

Monks are the most survivable class when you look at prepared and unprepared situations combined. There aren't many ways to get to a Monk, even when he's sleeping, because the Spot/Listen and gear requirements are in the Monk's favor, and the Monk resists or is immune to so many things.

I agree with everyone who said that a Monk with items is better than a Monk with Vow of Poverty.

A Monk PC can overcome his attack/damage weakness by focusing on STR (like my enlarged Half Orc Monk) and having the right party.

At level 16, my Monk, who has a druid buddy in the party that buffs him with GMF and Barkskin (extended, which can last through an entire dungeon if fighting indoors). The party is almost always hasted, first thing, in a fight, and if possible by virtue of my insane spot/listen checks and divination spells, we have advanced notice of a fight and we buff if possible.

So, I'd suggest that hitting at:

+22/22/22/17/12/22

For 4d8+13 damage (Monk's belt, enlarge, GMF, Bull's STR, etc.)

Is pretty good?

Sure, a fighter might be taking initial and haste attacks at +27 or even +30, but, in most fights, the fighter hits accurately enough that they can bleed off attack bonus into Expertise or Power Attack. So, 90% of the time, having four attacks at +22 lets me hit as much as a fighter would hit, and I do a lot of damage.

Monks are supposed to be a fast, resilient class that can close distance with casters and put a hurt on them. I use Abundant Step + Sun School + Grappling (or just a stunning punch) to do a number on a low flying mage when possible.

Some suggest that Monks don't add much to a party or do anything well (other than survive), but, that's garbage.

- Monks attack bonus improves, and damage output improves, by using tumble + massive speed to set up flanks and opportunist sneak attacks with the party rogue. No one else can set up flanks as well as a Monk. Monks also synergize with a Rogue by stunning foes, setting them up for more full round sneak attacks. Push WIS up, and the Monk has a high AC and stun save. Rapid stunning? Even an enemy barbarian will eventually fail a save, which, with Pain Touch, is essentially "death" in most situations.

- Monks are fantastic at spoting or hearing upcoming encounters or ambushes. New feats provide almost divination-like powers to these checks. I've taken quick reconoiter, and my Monk often pinpoints the square of invisible enemies for the party (you still need to target an area with glitterdust).

- The monk is great at taking prisoners when the party needs intel.

- Monks are reasonably good spokesmen for a party.

- I often use Abundent Step to improve the party's tactical situation. There hasn't been a single day when I haven't used my one use. I like to take several heavy hitters and place them next to enemies before the hitters act. This provides the party powerhouse with a full round attack.

- Monks can go on scouting missions, and provide a rogue or ranger with a bit of muscle support on a scouting mission that could be dangerous. Monks can easily jump across long chasms or swim at a second's notice. No need to prepare a spell. This comes up even at high levels and saves spell slots for the party casters.

- With Adamantine Fists, and the damage output I contribute, I can easily take down golems or cast "pass wall" on a nearby dungeon wall. Sure, it's loud, and sure, we don't do it often, but it's nice to know you can.

Monks are weak vs auto damage and spells that bypass SR and/or don't offer a save (especially Reflex). Monks are weak vs stuff that can hit past their highest-in-party AC and get to their lowish HP.

Monks don't have an easy time bypassing Silver or Cold Iron related DR.

Monks are generally weak in ranged combat (though not horribly so) if they can't use their speed or abilities to close in melee.

NullAshton
2006-11-29, 09:48 AM
Theoretically a wizard with a VoP could work. Easily, in fact.

How? Using someones elses spellbook.

hewhosaysfish
2006-11-29, 09:59 AM
Theoretically a wizard with a VoP could work. Easily, in fact.

How? Using someones elses spellbook.

Yeah, but the whole "Oh, my character doesn't actually own these items; the rest of the party owns them and he just has them on a permanent loan" business really should be trodded on as firmly as possible, lest it spread from essentials like a wizards spell book (and what number of spells should be considered essential? The two he learns per level? Less? More? The ones he copies from scrolls and captured spellbooks?) to other item sof equipment ("But these bracers of armour +8 ARE essential for my wizard. Without them he'll get killed and eaten! That sounds pretty essential to me! You might as well forbid him from eating!")

Thomas
2006-11-29, 10:01 AM
How? Using someones elses spellbook.

Sounds about as okay as living in someone else's mansion, eating someone else's twelve-course dinners, and wearing someone else's magic items.

Anyway, one would presume that your spellbook is exempt from the Vow, just like simple weapons, the plain clothes, the sack and one day's food, and the spell component pouch. The intent clearly is that you're able to cast. (One also presumes that you're allowed to carry a holy symbol, evne though it's not specifically mentioned. Or are ascetic clerics unable to cast spells, too?)

The problem with an ascetic wizard is that he's not going to be able to buy more spells - he's not allowed to gain and use treasure. He just gets his two new spells per level.

Rigeld2
2006-11-29, 10:22 AM
Look, you people. LACK OF MAGICAL ITEMS FOR FLIGHT IS NOT A BIG DEAL!
Yes it is. Tell me how many times you are going to need Fly today. Remember, it only lasts 1 minute per level. What, you cant predict the future that accurately? Why not? Okay, I'll use half my level 3 slots on Fly (Level 15, assuming 20 int) well do 3 fly spells.

Oops... we needed 4 today because the rogue doesnt have a way to fly either (same school of thought as you). Thats not a good thing.

Rigeld2
2006-11-29, 10:28 AM
Theoretically a wizard with a VoP could work. Easily, in fact.

How? Using someones elses spellbook.
Pretty close to explicity forbidden by the feat/vow. You cant "borrow" something from a companion to use it, no matter the duration.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-11-29, 11:51 AM
Personally it bugs me that wizards are so automatically excluded from VoP. I mean, is this a balance consideration?
No. It's the consideration that carrying around a book worth several thousand gp doesn't represent poverty very well.


(One also presumes that you're allowed to carry a holy symbol, evne though it's not specifically mentioned. Or are ascetic clerics unable to cast spells, too?)
Holy symbols are disallowed. See the FAQ (don't have a pg. number handy this time) and the allusion to the fact from the WotC article Ramza00 quoted above.

NullAshton
2006-11-29, 11:57 AM
Pretty close to explicity forbidden by the feat/vow. You cant "borrow" something from a companion to use it, no matter the duration.

You're not borrowing. You're reading someones elses book. There isn't anything prohibiting you from reading books, is there?

NullAshton
2006-11-29, 12:00 PM
Yes it is. Tell me how many times you are going to need Fly today. Remember, it only lasts 1 minute per level. What, you cant predict the future that accurately? Why not? Okay, I'll use half my level 3 slots on Fly (Level 15, assuming 20 int) well do 3 fly spells.

Oops... we needed 4 today because the rogue doesnt have a way to fly either (same school of thought as you). Thats not a good thing.

Doublepost, but eh. Not that good at doing multiple quote thingies.

Overland flight, hmmm... hour per level.

And honestly. If your DM puts THAT MANY FLYING CREATURE AT YOU, get a new DM. Or hit your DM over the head with a book, to put some common sense in there.

And why can't you just prohibit your enemy from flying somehow...

Khantalas
2006-11-29, 12:00 PM
You can always get the spells tattooed on your own body. Then sell yourself to a wizard and give the money to charity.

SpiderBrigade
2006-11-29, 12:29 PM
No. It's the consideration that carrying around a book worth several thousand gp doesn't represent poverty very well.Right, I get that. My point was more that, in the absence of a balance consideration, it seems like Wizards (and I guess Clerics) get unfairly excluded from VoP. This is especially bad in the case of Clerics what with the whole "loyal servant of their god" thing. There should be a workaround feat, at least.

Now, if it IS a balance consideration, the idea being "casters are already too powerful to get the benefits of this amazing Vow," what about sorcerors and (to a slightly lesser extent) Druids?

Pegasos989
2006-11-29, 12:43 PM
Yes, Vow of poverty is meant for monks.

Cleric can not cast spells (he can not have holy symbol) and neither can a wizard (he can not have spellbook). Fighter and barbarian are so gear dependant that they would be totally gimped with vow, rogue & bard can't use magic devices or own thieves' tools or instrumets or anything else... Druid's physical stats change when wildshaping and only mental he really needs is wisdom so he gets bonus to only one ability score...

Does paladin lose the feat when he summons a mount which has riding gear on? Either way, he and ranger are also very dependant on magical effects (even if slightly less than fighter and barbarian) so a bad trade for them too.

So sorcerer is the only one not completely gimped with VoP, even though the two feats he needs to spend and no casting related abilities and several abilities being already easy to emulate by magic and...

Anyways, you get the idea. Monk is only one not completely gimped by VoP so he is exactly the one who it was designed for to take it...



But as said, if you only have about half your Wealth By Level guidelines, VoP is overpowered.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-11-29, 12:45 PM
Right, I get that. My point was more that, in the absence of a balance consideration, it seems like Wizards (and I guess Clerics) get unfairly excluded from VoP. This is especially bad in the case of Clerics what with the whole "loyal servant of their god" thing. There should be a workaround feat, at least.
Yeah, I see no reason to disallow a wooden (never silver) holy symbol to an exalted character. Even non-clerics should be able to show devotion.

However, I cannot see anyway to justify a spellbook, given the amount of wealth required to go into it. If you want to be an ascetic arcane caster, be a sorcerer. You aren't gonna get a wizard's usual versatility anyway, since even with a VoP houserule there should be restrictions on what can be spent on the book (see hewhosaysfish's post above for an example of the dilemma).

If you're worried about flavor—I've never felt spontaneous spellcasting was required to to spring up spontaneously from the blood (whether or not it's at puberty). In fact, I've never liked the idea of a class (usually representing learned skills over inherent ability) being dependent on that kind of flavor. So just come up with sorcerers that are just as studious as wizards but just practice their magic in a way that doesn't rely on spellbooks. They hardwire the spells directly into their brains instead of simply re-programming them every day.

Bears With Lasers
2006-11-29, 01:29 PM
Doublepost, but eh. Not that good at doing multiple quote thingies.

Overland flight, hmmm... hour per level.

And honestly. If your DM puts THAT MANY FLYING CREATURE AT YOU, get a new DM. Or hit your DM over the head with a book, to put some common sense in there.

And why can't you just prohibit your enemy from flying somehow...
Overland Flight is a Personal spell.

If your DM throws THAT MANY flying creatures in you, it's because MOST HIGH-LEVEL ENEMIES CAN FLY.

Rigeld2
2006-11-29, 01:36 PM
Doublepost, but eh. Not that good at doing multiple quote thingies.

Overland flight, hmmm... hour per level.

And honestly. If your DM puts THAT MANY FLYING CREATURE AT YOU, get a new DM. Or hit your DM over the head with a book, to put some common sense in there.

And why can't you just prohibit your enemy from flying somehow...
Yeah, because the only reason youd need to fly is because of an enemy.

Not because of chasms or anything like that.

Rigeld2
2006-11-29, 01:36 PM
You're not borrowing. You're reading someones elses book. There isn't anything prohibiting you from reading books, is there?
Thats the definition of borrowing. Using something that belongs to someone else.

Pegasos989
2006-11-30, 05:07 PM
Thats the definition of borrowing. Using something that belongs to someone else.

I wouldn't say that, because if reading someone else's book is like that, a best way to cripple a VoP character is that an NPC asks him to read out loud a part from the book he owns... :D

I do think that someone else having a book you simply read all the time is against the idea normally but then again, I do not think that wizards should be unable to take VoP (So you lose metamagic rods, ac items, rings of wizardy, material components for spells... For VoP bonuses? I don't think it is overpowered at all) so I would allow it for that reason only (or rather let him study a way to prepare spells from cheaper books or something).

Rigeld2
2006-11-30, 05:16 PM
I wouldn't say that, because if reading someone else's book is like that, a best way to cripple a VoP character is that an NPC asks him to read out loud a part from the book he owns... :D
Different intent. A VoP character can his entire share of the loot. He just cant use any of it and has to give it away (IE he cant profit from it). Reading a passage from a book the BBEG owns doesnt profit the VoP char in any way. Borrowing someone elses spellbook does.

Emperor Tippy
2006-11-30, 05:36 PM
It might have already been said but if you are already allowing the BoED and are able to take an Exalted feat you should try to gain the Saint template. One of the things it gives you is your Wisdom bonus to AC. And that stacks with the monk ability and VoP.

A level 20, 32 wisdom monk saint with 24 Dex and VoP has an AC of 48.

That is starting with a base Wisdom of 18 and a base Dexterity of 18.

And doesn't include all of the other benefits of saint and VoP.

BlueWizard
2006-11-30, 05:42 PM
I have an epic PC in my game, the player is monk with the vow of poverty. I have found that he can't fly, so anything in the air is deadly to him! ! ! !

Thomas
2006-11-30, 05:48 PM
VoP doesn't scale into epic levels, so it's automatically broken in epic-level games. And even if it did, with just the existing VoP abilities, it'd be useless.

Then again, the further you get into epic-level games, the less use any non-primary-caster class is.

cupkeyk
2006-12-02, 12:58 AM
Gist: VoP IS for monks, barbs and druids and noone else. Monks get the most benefit because they suck in general.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-02, 01:26 AM
Gist: VoP IS for monks, barbs and druids and noone else. Monks get the most benefit because they suck in general.

No, Monks don't get the most benefit, because their equipment provides them just as much benefit as the Vow or more.

Druids get the most benefit, because they use the fewest items (since gear doesn't stay when you Wild Shape).

StGlebidiah
2006-12-02, 07:40 AM
While we're talking about Monks, someone once made the argument that they are NOT of an Eastern flavour. I just realized that the obvious proof that they were made with a wholly Eastern martial art flavour in mind is the weapons listed as "Monk Weapons"...

Pegasos989
2006-12-02, 07:49 AM
No, Monks don't get the most benefit, because their equipment provides them just as much benefit as the Vow or more.

Druids get the most benefit, because they use the fewest items (since gear doesn't stay when you Wild Shape).


Well, he loses nearly entire benefit of stat increases, already gets natural armor in many forms, etc. so I would say that druid is worse than monk for taking the VoP

Zincorium
2006-12-02, 08:40 AM
Well, he loses nearly entire benefit of stat increases

No, he loses the benefits of stat increases via items, not because he loses enhancement bonuses, but because the source of those bonuses (equipment) goes away when wildshape. Vow of poverty's enhancement bonuses stay. Therefore, VoP is one of the only ways to retain a bonus to stats that druids need, like constitution and wisdom, while wildshaped.

, already gets natural armor in many forms,
Two. Points. That's all the natural armor that VoP gives. The other +13 at 20th level comes from exalted and deflection bonuses, which are still present.

etc. so I would say that druid is worse than monk for taking the VoP
And I would say that you didn't do much research to back up your statement.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-02, 08:44 AM
Well, he loses nearly entire benefit of stat increases, already gets natural armor in many forms, etc. so I would say that druid is worse than monk for taking the VoP

Yeah, you're totally wrong. The monk's VoP stat increases replace his magic items. The Druid doesn't have magic items in Wild Shape... but VoP's enhancement bonus to stats still applies, on top of the Wild Shape form's stats.

The natural armor, likewise, is an enhancement bonus to natural armor, and enhances the natural armor of whatever form the druid turns into.

Basically, instead of getting next to no items in Wildshape (maybe Wild armor, an Animated shield, and an ioun stone or two), the druid gets the full benefits of VoP, which are the equivalent of all of the gear he would otherwise have, and he gets these benefits in every form.

littlechicory
2008-01-28, 12:52 PM
VoP monk is indeed made of doom and awesome. Buffed-up armored Minotaur vs. naked VoP monk? The mino got a surprise round in and my monk still flattened him in three rounds (including the surprise!). She knocked minos, vampires, hags... it took a souped-up iron golem to take her down, and she saved the rest of the party in the process. I LOVED MY VOP MONK.

But VoP monk still has nothing on VoP druid. VoP druids are INSANE.

Duke of URL
2008-01-28, 01:35 PM
Vow Of Poverty is designed to work really, really well with a Monk or Druid.

A lot of folks have pointed out that a Monk will do better with WBL than by the bonuses provided via VOP -- this is true in a balanced game. However, something else to factor in is all of the free feats. It will require careful building (and an even higher reliance than usual on MAD-isshness), but you can get up to 10 bonus feats by level 20. How much is a feat worth in equipment?

dyslexicfaser
2008-01-28, 01:40 PM
Depends on the feat. Some of those exalted feats are excellent. Some are just... sad.

Worira
2008-01-28, 08:07 PM
Well, yes, VoP is better for monks than fighters. And Quicken Spell is better for wizards than monks.

Tengu
2008-01-28, 09:07 PM
VoP is good only if your DM is stingy and gives you treasure way below WBL (which means that he deserves what he gets), and on very low levels, when people don't have much access to magic items.

Oh, and...

THREAD NECROMANCY
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/nes275/studentproj/fall05/coj3/necromancy.jpg

leperkhaun
2008-01-29, 05:14 AM
No, Monks don't get the most benefit, because their equipment provides them just as much benefit as the Vow or more.

Druids get the most benefit, because they use the fewest items (since gear doesn't stay when you Wild Shape).

Ehh wild clasps let you use magic items while wildshaped.

Aerogoat
2008-01-29, 11:47 AM
Ehh wild clasps let you use magic items while wildshaped.That post was made more than a year before the Magic Item Compendium was released. Wilding Clasps didn't exist in 3.5.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-29, 02:08 PM
That post was made more than a year before the Magic Item Compendium was released. Wilding Clasps didn't exist in 3.5.

And that is probably why there is a rule against thread necromancy, I thought it was strange that so many people that were apparently banned had posted in this thread:smallwink: .