Mind screwing one's self

[ben-zayb]

Any thoughts (pun intended) on how would the spell/power work if the following, assuming it's possible at all, gets applied by the caster to him/herself?

Cloud Mind power
Modify Memory spell
Mindrape (there's got to be a way to utilize this to one's self)

[Jack_Simth]

Any thoughts (pun intended) on how would the spell/power work if the following, assuming it's possible at all, gets applied by the caster to him/herself?

Cloud Mind power
Modify Memory spell
Mindrape (there's got to be a way to utilize this to one's self)

If I'm DMing?

Cloud Mind: You remove yourself from your own awareness, sit there and contemplate oneness with the universe for a while, and a representative from a Zen monastary drops by and asks you to help them achieve enlightenment.

Modify Memory: You Pick one of the options and apply it. It... really doesn't have any reason for anything bad to happen.

Mindrape: You fully unravel your memories, and then have no groundwork on which to rebuild yourself for the second half of the spell. You have reduced yourself to a mindless drooling idiot.

[Snowbluff]

Mindrape: You do not reduce yourself to an idiot, because for that to happen, your stats would have to change.

[Jack_Simth]

Mindrape: You do not reduce yourself to an idiot, because for that to happen, your stats would have to change.
So you've left yourself Insane, then.

[Snowbluff]

So you've left yourself Insane, then.

Yep, pretty much. :smallsmile: Or... if you can. The insanity part comes at the end, or you get to choose what you remove, and the effect doesn't resolve until you are done...

Or, if you end up with no memories, you would have to a learn of those things again. You could be a kid again...

EXCEPT NOT! Your adventuring party is a wandering band of soldiers. Your fragile, infantile psyche is frequently being destroyed by the actions of you and your teammates. How will your character cope? Will you find strength within yourself to survive? Could you live with yourself if you did?

[ben-zayb]

I was looking forward to using the Mindrape option (less casting than multiple modify memory)... oh well.

Microcosm seems awesome as well. I'm just wondering if you can cancel the effects by manifesting the power in your dream world. (my reading says no, since he isn't really doing any actual action IRL aside from drooling and mewling)

Otherwise, that might turn out to be like some Inception mindscrew at some point, where you'd have no idea of what's real and what's not anymore. :smallbiggrin:

Fun times!

[Fyermind]

I would use effects like mindrape to help my powerful mage deal with his personality problems when he needed to.

[Slipperychicken]

Mindrape works normally, because you don't automatically remove your own memories, and may choose which parts of your mind to modify. As long as you don't remove your memory of casting the spell until the very end, you can change anything else without incident.


The caster enters the mind of a creature, learning everything that creature knows.
The caster can erase or add memories as she sees fit and alter emotions, opinions, and even alignment.
When the caster is done, she can leave the creature insane (as described in the insanity spell) or seemingly unaffected, without any memory of the intrusion.
Severe changes to personality and changes to alignment can be corrected by a break enchantment spell (although an atonement spell might be needed as well, depending on circumstances).
Alterations to memories and subtler thoughts can be restored only through use of a miracle or wish.

You learn everything you know (pretty big mindscrew right there. More annoying than damaging), and then may modify your own memories as you choose, including the information you just learned from yourself.

[Xervous]

I find it mildly funny that even by mindraping yourself you can learn stuff... sort of a "the whole is greater than the parts" thing.

[Slipperychicken]

I find it mildly funny that even by mindraping yourself you can learn stuff... sort of a "the whole is greater than the parts" thing.

It's only stuff you already knew at the time of casting. I guess it'd be useful if it was a kind of "hidden super-secret knowledge" type of deal, or if you're in a "you wake up with amnesia and start adventuring" plot.

This does raise an important question. If I Mindrape a creature with more Knowledge skill ranks and a higher Intelligence score than I have, would I be able to substitute the target's modifier for my own? I allegedly know everything he does, and Knowledge skills are the way of representing that mechanically...

[Bakeru]

Otherwise, that might turn out to be like some Inception mindscrew at some point, where you'd have no idea of what's real and what's not anymore. :smallbiggrin:Or like Ghost in the Shell. I think it was in the second season of Stand Alone Complex where the Major admits to having modified, deleted and fabricated so much of her own memories that she doesn't actually know her own past.

[Sith_Happens]

You know, I just now had the idea of a remorseful evil wizard using Mindrape as a DIY super-Atonement. Best. Character concept. Ever.

[Renen]

You guys just want to play with yourselves. IYKWIM

[Urpriest]

You learn everything you know (pretty big mindscrew right there. More annoying than damaging)

This is actually kind of interesting. Knowledge, after all, is generally defined as justified true belief. Ask a philosopher, and they'll tell you that while parts of that definition may be in flux, a fundamental requirement for you to know something is that it be true. So with Mindrape, since you only learn what the target knows and not what the target merely believes, you can find which of your beliefs are true.

[Callin]

Can you Mind Rape yourself to allow you to redo your spells?? Like say a Wizard needs to cast X but he only has ABCDEFGHI memoriezed? Go back and since you Know all your spells in your spellbook just trade out say E for X?

[Snowbluff]

This is actually kind of interesting. Knowledge, after all, is generally defined as justified true belief. Ask a philosopher, and they'll tell you that while parts of that definition may be in flux, a fundamental requirement for you to know something is that it be true. So with Mindrape, since you only learn what the target knows and not what the target merely believes, you can find which of your beliefs are true.

Suddenly, philosophy got really weird. "I don't agree with that proposition. Let me Mindrape you to find out if it's true.":smalltongue:

[Bakeru]

This is actually kind of interesting. Knowledge, after all, is generally defined as justified true belief. Ask a philosopher, and they'll tell you that while parts of that definition may be in flux, a fundamental requirement for you to know something is that it be true. So with Mindrape, since you only learn what the target knows and not what the target merely believes, you can find which of your beliefs are true.Of course, it's perfectly possible to believe something which happens to be true, but still not actually knowing it. Basically, if you only made an "educated guess" (which happened to be right) about something, you don't actually know it, and thus would lose it when Mind Raping yourself.

Given how hard it is to actually know that something must be true (instead of a mere illusion, hallucination, deception, misinterpretation or simply being mistaken), you don't actually know much of anything, if anything at all.
You probably know, however, what you believe to be true, so Mind Rape tells you what you know about your own beliefs ("I believe this, I believe that..."), so we're back at step one.

/Edit: Same applies to other people. So, they, too, only know "I believe this, I believe that", without actually knowing if their beliefs are true.

[ben-zayb]

What I don't get with many of these mind altering spells is the permanent duration. Shouldn't be instantaneous instead?

I can easily imagine some covert agent changing his memory however he wants depending on proper circumstances, and then using some sort of dispel, disjoin or amf to when retrieving his real memories. (this actually applies to a character concept I'm submitting now in an epic campaign recruitment).

Who needs bluff checks and anti mind probing effects when your memories are compromised anyway?

[Slipperychicken]

This is actually kind of interesting. Knowledge, after all, is generally defined as justified true belief. Ask a philosopher, and they'll tell you that while parts of that definition may be in flux, a fundamental requirement for you to know something is that it be true. So with Mindrape, since you only learn what the target knows and not what the target merely believes, you can find which of your beliefs are true.

That's one way to break a campaign setting...


1. Implant proposed theory (or even a hypothesis) in a creature's brain via Mindrape so that creature believes it to be true, and modify a separate part of that creature's personality so he will volunteer to fail saving throws against spells you cast on him.

2. Cast Mindrape on that same creature again, having him volunteer to fail his save.

3. You learned everything the target knows. If you don't learn the theory from Mindraping the target, then the theory is not true. If you do learn it in this way, the theory is true.

4. Repeat steps 1-3 until you've learned everything you want to know.

Aside from maintaining a 17th level caster and having him cast 9th level spells for you, it saves a lot of research costs...

[ben-zayb]

That's one way to break a campaign setting...


1. Implant proposed theory (or even a hypothesis) in creature's brain via Mindrape so they believe it to be true, and modifying a separate part of his personality so he will volunteer to fail saving throws against spells you cast on him.

2. Cast Mindrape on that same creature again, having him volunteer to fail his save.

3. You learned everything the target knows. If you don't learn the theory from Mindraping the target, then the theory is not true. If you do learn it in this way, the theory is true.

4. Repeat steps 1-3 until you've learned everything you want to know.
That's hilariously akin to the Paladin thing with the atonement spell.
Can't remember the details but it involves the Paladin making a proposed statement claiming it's the truth(e.g. That the baker next door is an assassin).

If he lies he'll lose class features since it's an evil deed, and then someone atones him. If it's true, then great... You just solved the town's mystery assassin.

[Slipperychicken]

That's hilariously akin to the Paladin thing with the atonement spell.
Can't remember the details but it involves the Paladin making a proposed statement claiming it's the truth(e.g. That the baker next door is an assassin).

If he lies he'll lose class features since it's an evil deed, and then someone atones him. If it's true, then great... You just solved the town's mystery assassin.

Lying is different. If you believe something which isn't real and say it (suppose for arguments sake you just took LSD and believe the floor melted in front of you when it didn't), then saying it (i.e. crying out "oh my god guys, the floor just melted!") isn't lying, you're just relaying the information which your addled brain currently believes. It's only lying when you know something isn't true but say it anyway. Otherwise, illusions would be the surest method of making Paladins fall.

[Jack_Simth]

That's hilariously akin to the Paladin thing with the atonement spell.
Can't remember the details but it involves the Paladin making a proposed statement claiming it's the truth(e.g. That the baker next door is an assassin).

If he lies he'll lose class features since it's an evil deed, and then someone atones him. If it's true, then great... You just solved the town's mystery assassin.
Don't use Atonement. Use a Phylactery of Faithfulness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofFaithfulness). Cheaper and faster. Plus you just have to "take a moment to contemplate" what you're going to say, rather than actually say it.