Did we just get our "Final Battle"?

[eras10]

Think about it. We have precedent for Rich using plot twists and/or clever gimmicks to show us situations because they more or less would be interesting/awesome, without committing those events to really happening in plot terms (because there's some other path to which he's committed)

Examples to me, include the Haley-Belkar split with the memory charm, and of course the Soul-Spliced-V vs. Xykon fight.

I don't have an airtight logical case that we won't see a straight Team-Evil vs. One-Winged OOTS fight coming up soon enough, just a hunch on psychology. It would also be a valid device to use this fight as contrast to make the real version even more poignant and grim.

But I just have a feeling that this IS the Xykon vs. OOTS fight we were just given, both bonus Easter Egg and actual plot device at the same time, and foreshadows that there's not going to actually be an OOTS vs. Xykon battle [Ed: in this book].

I'm not ruling out some kind of Xykon vs. OOTS confrontation (what's been going through my mind a lot is Belkar blowing the Gate as soon as someone walks in), but this seems like the fight that never was reaching out from beyond its grave....

-- A few unrelated points:

#1. This theory above is consistent with the sense that Rich isn't going to have Rich Roy, Haley, and Elan hack their way through both Nale's strike team and Team Evil in succession. (If nothing else, we've had gobs of hints that Varsuvvius Ex Mental Control Machina is coming). Something else is going to happen.

#2. Although they were illusions, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see X and Redcloak literally pop right in in the exact room where the gate is kept. After, X has the real coordinates. Why shouldn't they be accurate down to, say, 10 feet?

#3. I'm of course not ruling out some other sort of Final Battle [Ed: At this gate. I'm talking about this gate/book.]. I just don't think it's going to be an OOTS/2 vs Xykon thing anymore.

[Xacal]

Well, that could make for an interesting final act, especially if Team Evil dissolves into a sea of betrayal. It has some grim potential, although said grimmness leans towards the Cormac McCarthy end of the spectrum.

Still, I think that there will still probably be a final encounter of some sort. It just might not play out as expected (but does it ever?).

[Finagle]

No way. There is still one gate to go, the final battle won't be until then. Probably 2-4 calendar years from today.

[Vinsfeld]

#1. This theory above is consistent with the sense that Rich isn't going to have Rich, Haley, and Elan hack their way through both Nale's strike team and Team Evil in succession.

Why would The Giant have himself hack his way through Nale's strike and Team Evil? :smallamused:

[RndmNumGen]

Why would The Giant have himself battle hack his way through Nale's strike and Team Evil? :smallamused:

Because it would be awesome?:smalltongue:

[Shred-Bot]

Why would The Giant have himself hack his way through Nale's strike and Team Evil? :smallamused:

The Giant writing self-insert fanfics for a comic that he already writes? AMAZING. Maybe he can whip out artifacts like the Crayon of Destiny (which is capable of funamentally altering the structure of the SNARL ITSELF).

[Living Oxymoron]

IMO, the final battle will be really epic, because we can imagine a lot of possible twists. We have V and the IFCC, Redcloak and Xykon, possibly Nale and Sabine, possibly Tarquin and his pals... it will be great. I hope to live until this day. If not, may the heaven (or hell) have internet. :smalltongue:

[WastedTalent]

I think it would make for a rather unsatisfying end of the story if there wasn't some final showdown between the order and Xykon. The entire comic has basically been building up to that from the start, and although I expect many twists and turns along the way, i reckon that Order vs X is a confrontation that's definitely going to happen at some future point.

More importantly - Besides being an illusion, what happened in comic #886 doesn't feel in the least bit like a realistic depiction of what would happen if the Order were to actually meet team Evil right now. Redcloak rendered helpless by a simple forcecage? Xykon going down from only a few swings of Roy's sword? I think not. If this is what we're getting as a surrogate for 'The Final Fight', I would consider it a poor trade - and not one The Giant is likely to make.

[Copperdragon]

Think about it.

Yes, of course. That was the conclusion of the Epic Story Rich told for years. They'll not smash Redcloak and the phylactery and everything's over. That was it. Totally likely.

[Ellye]

Xykon going down from only a few swings of Roy's sword?To be fair, this part might not be so absurdly unlikely.
We don't know exactly what the Greenhilt Sword and its starmetal blade does, but it's pretty likely that it deals extra damage against undead and it seems to bypass their DR.
It's fair to assume that Roy's damage per swing against an Undead is quite high. Roy attacked Xykon six times in that strip (well, the first hit was healed, so five), with the blade triggering the starmetal properties in every swing. This would likely result in a very high total damage - I don't think it would be an exaggeration to compare it with the damage that Xykon took in the Azure City throne room, where he almost got destroyed.

Over-analyzing an illusion with unnecessary (and likely inaccurate) DnD rules:
The Greenhilt Blade is a +5 Greatsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) with the Starmetal property, and Roy has 24 STR (thanks to Class and Levels thread).
Five hits with it would deal, on average:
5 * (2d6 + 5 + 10 + <starmetal damage> ) =
10d6 + 75 + 5*<starmetal damage> =
110 + 5*<starmetal damage>

That's already a high amount of damage. Let's suppose that the Starmetal deals 2d6 extra damage against undead when it triggers, for a total of, on average, 147 damage dealt in those six swings.

Even with Xykon's d12 HD, 147 damage would be quite dangerous - if it gets through whatever damage reductions and protective spells Xykon might have.
The thing is, of course, I don't think Roy would get the chance to swing freely his sword against Xykon like that, in a real fight. Everything about that battle was made to look fishy. Xykon and Redcloak "tactics" are way too basic, they seem completely unprepared, and their "voice" and style of dialogue and combat is way off.

But in a way, I do partially agree with the OP - this is our would-be "final battle" for now. I do think we will get some sort of final confrontation, but it's likely going to be in vastly different conditions and it will be a long time till then.

[137beth]

I think it would make for a rather unsatisfying end of the story if there wasn't some final showdown between the order and Xykon. The entire comic has basically been building up to that from the start, and although I expect many twists and turns along the way, i reckon that Order vs X is a confrontation that's definitely going to happen at some future point.

I don't agree. This is a story about characters, not slashing. Characters don't need a big fight to be interesting.

[Ewig Custos]

No. It is what it is: not OOTS vs. Xykon fight, but a surrealistic Roy vs. Xykon fight.
You can't seriously accept this fight because the fight itself is not serious. Useless Redcloak, others helping stop Redcloak and leaving Xykon to Roy, perfectly working feat and Xykon not finding any way to counter it? Right, totally believable.
True version of OOTS vs. Team Evil will not take a 1 strip and will be far more tense.
And I believe that final battle will not be simple battle of order versus team evil, but a battle of all sides interested in gates. With possible temporary alliances.

[Poppy Appletree]

Plot twist: Julia fulfils the Blood Oath.

[rodneyAnonymous]

You can't seriously accept this fight because the fight itself is not serious...


The point was not that this fight is or is not believable, it is that it happening now probably means it won't happen again later.

[black34v6]

{scrubbed}

[Poppy Appletree]

Observe....

What no one is seeing is the subtle color difference in the panels. From where V walks on-panel to the end, everything is done in drab washed out colors - Belkar "dies" in the panels but at the end he is seen in a trance and alive. This isn't a continuity error - what the Giant is trying to tell us is that the whole party has been put into a state by the sigils at the top of the walls - something Roy asked Haley about in previous comics (see: #885 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0885.html)).

I think this is not what we, the readers, think it is - and it's leading up to a much larger event...

This has already been mentioned over and over in the comic discussion thread. I think you missed the point.

[TheMac04]

Observe....

What no one is seeing is the subtle color difference in the panels. From where V walks on-panel to the end, everything is done in drab washed out colors - Belkar "dies" in the panels but at the end he is seen in a trance and alive. This isn't a continuity error - what the Giant is trying to tell us is that the whole party has been put into a state by the sigils at the top of the walls - something Roy asked Haley about in previous comics (see: #885 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0885.html)).

I think this is not what we, the readers, think it is - and it's leading up to a much larger event...

I don't think anyone here is under the impression that #886 actually happened. The argument, I think, is over whether the fight as depicted is effectively a "what if" scenario.

[Ewig Custos]

The point was not that this fight is or is not believable, it is that it happening now probably means it won't happen again later.
It is not happening, it happened. In one strip.
And I agree with you, it won't happen again. I think we'll see a clash with Team Evil some day (perhaps pretty soon?), but not in such a way. The way Roy imagines his perfect fight with Xykon is quite far from reality.

And I know that you're saying that this maybe a sign that there will be no showdown between teams even later on. I doubt that. Of course, someone else destroying Xykon will be unexpected, but I thought that Giant does not like suddenly appearing new heroes which save the day. And by the way, if someone actually will be able to kill our loved lich, then probably he would be able to dispatch of Redcloak too. And that would mean that Xykon will simply regenerate near true phylactery.

[ghoul-n]

There's Kraagor's gate to deal with yet, so it's kinda midgame atm if you ask me. Similar to Underdark in Baldur's Gate trilogy.

Upd: doh, topic turns out to be about other thing than I've thought about, silly me.

[Sky_Schemer]

Like many of the others here, I think the final battle will be a lot more complicated. The story has been setting up a major conflict of interest between the characters in Team Evil for some time now: Redcloak vs. Xykon, MitD vs TE in general, and MitD vs Redcloak in particular. While that has been happening, you also have the Order getting over their own personal issues and actually unifying as a team, with each of their major setbacks to date (except for the unresolved Durkula plot) making them stronger as a whole.

And there are still so many loose threads. Tarquin and his crew. The Linear Guild. Even The Order of the Scribble is not exactly out of the story yet. Serini may still be around somewhere, and Lirian and Durkon are gone but not necessarily permanently. Who knows what will happen there?

All of this is going to come to a head, and it will probably happen in the dungeon guarding Kraagar's gate which is filled with some of the "nastiest monsters in the world". We could end up with individual confrontations against the backdrop of monsters attacking everyone, everywhere, all at once, which is a terrific trope IMO.

That's not to say, though, that I didn't like this little fantasy/illusion/whatever. I think it's Rich's way of showing us a pure Roy victory, one that's entirely plausible given the right circumstances, so that we can have our cake and eat it too. Gotta love that.

[Fish]

I doubt it. I'm inclined to say Roy realizes it is an illusion precisely because nothing went awry. It may even make him redouble his efforts to plan ahead. "If the illusion showed me my greatest wish -- my plan working without flaw -- then obviously my plan isn't realistic."

[WastedTalent]

I don't agree. This is a story about characters, not slashing. Characters don't need a big fight to be interesting.

They don't necessarily need big fights, but they tend to end up in them all the same. Plus a big fight provides opportunities for characters to shine.


To be fair, this part might not be so absurdly unlikely.

You may be right about that - although I have my doubts, considering Roy's previous fight against Xykon. Roy basically smacked Xykon in the face with the Greenhilt sword for about for 6-8 attacks, and other than a few scratches here and there it just didn't seem to faze him all that much. I'm not sure if Roy has gotten thát much more powerful in the mean time, being dead for a very long time and all that.

What I meant with my earlier statement, however, was the same thing you are arguing in the second half of your post: It's just not going to be that easy to take down Xykon, fancy fighter feat or not.

[eras10]

Hey guys, to clarify, I'm not talking about no OOTS vs. Xykon final battle ever. I'm talking about, I think this foreshadows, no OOTS vs Xykon final battle at this gate. And/or book.

[137beth]

Plus a big fight provides opportunities for characters to shine.
No, a big fight provide opportunities for character sheets and dice to shine. Fights just get in the way of character development.


Hey guys, to clarify, I'm not talking about no OOTS vs. Xykon final battle ever. I'm talking about, I think this foreshadows, no OOTS vs Xykon final battle at this gate. And/or book.
Yea, I can't see a fight with Xykon ending without someone dying, and I think we will likely fulfill our quota for major character deaths between the linear guild and Durkon.

[Mikeavelli]

Crazy Theory:

Roy just killed Vaarsuvius, Illusion style.

Further crazy theory:

The Entire temple is itself an incredibly vivid, epic level hallucination/illusion/enchantment that the party fell victim to the moment they stepped inside. It's presenting an illusion to Roy of the his entire party dying around him. Most of it will be his own fault.

[WastedTalent]

No, a big fight provide opportunities for character sheets and dice to shine. Fights just get in the way of character development.

Taking the battle for Azure City as an example, would you really say no interesting character development took place there?

As for a fight between order/X at Girard's gate specifically, tough to say. We haven't actually seen the gate yet, and the order has their hands full with the LG right now. On the other hand, Xykon is prophesied to come within 1000 feet of the gate, and the order seems to be getting closer and closer to it. A clash of sorts seems unavoidable...

[Steven]

I honestly can't see how team evil would slot into this situation without either killing everyone or having their level of badass taken down several notches. Neither of these things seem likely to me at this point.

We already have one group of bad guys to deal with and Malack and Tarquin make them interesting... I think Team evil will show up too late for the party and find the gate already destroyed.

But then I am not a story teller by any stretch and certainly not as good as Rich so I would not be even slightly surprised if I was wrong about everything.

[Mantine]

No, a big fight provide opportunities for character sheets and dice to shine. Fights just get in the way of character development.

Yeah, no. Fights are exactly where character development gets to shine, like how V defeated Z by using a clever tactic rather than "blowing him to pieces" like she used to do.

[SaintRidley]

The point was not that this fight is or is not believable, it is that it happening now probably means it won't happen again later.

On a technical note, this fight didn't ever happen.

[Sky_Schemer]

Crazy Theory:

Roy just killed Vaarsuvius, Illusion style.


In the last panel it's strongly implied that no one drew any weapons in reality, so it's highly unlikely that he killed anyone or anything at all.

[Psyren]

OP: I'm inclined to agree, this fight was Rich basically saying "If I DID want Roy to take out Xykon in a one-on-one fight, he could actually do it - and here's how." And all it really took was one homebrew feat that guarantees spell disruption.

Not that his special technique won't see use again in a later fight - I just doubt it'll be a straight up hack-Xykon-to-pieces affair.


Yeah, no. Fights are exactly where character development gets to shine, like how V defeated Z by using a clever tactic rather than "blowing him to pieces" like she used to do.

This - or Roy beating Thog, or Elan holding his own against Sabine and Nale combined...

[SaintRidley]

In the last panel it's strongly implied that no one drew any weapons in reality, so it's highly unlikely that he killed anyone or anything at all.

Not to mention that V is not actually there.

[rodneyAnonymous]

On a technical note, this fight didn't ever happen.

I should have rather said "because we are seeing it now, we won't see it again later". :)

[Poppy Appletree]

I should have rather said "because we are seeing it now, we won't see it again later". :)

Which I think is on the money. If Elan wasn't drooling, he'd tell us that because we've already seen that version of events, it wouldn't be dramatic if that was what actually happened.

I don't think the Order is going to be the force contesting this gate; at least, not all of them. Tarquin and Malack are Epic level or close to it, and even without the Order's power being diminished they're simply no match for Xykon. Given that Durkon is now on the side of the Linear Guild, it wouldn't be entirely anti-climactic for the battle for the gate to be between two antagonist factions, because Durkon is still a PC and we're supposed to be cheering for him.

Xykon is an Epic level sorcerer. In all likelihood, he also knows where to find Kraagor's Gate, and he no longer has anything holding him stationary. If he doesn't get this gate, he'd just teleport to the next one before anyone else could get there. There needs to be something holding Xykon back to allow them to recover their strength for the last gate, and if Xykon had a head start there would never be any competition.

I think, ultimately, the Order is going to have to retreat, and the Linear Guild will destroy Xykon in this encounter.

EDIT: As an additional thought, I think this may be foreshadowing for a plot twist. In #762 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) during Elan and Tarquin's duel, we learn that Tarquin is aware of a lot of obscure combat techniques. What if Tarquin has the feat which Roy learned from his grandfather, and this sequence was a set-up to lead into that reveal?