Tiers Without Magic

[wayfare]

So, what would the Tier system look like if we removed the measuring stick of magic? Would the system stay the same, but with no classes in T1-2?

I'm interested in banning magic (psionics included), but allowing PrCs that duplicate spells to be a way you can get magic. Incarnum is also still allowable. Can anyone give me the pros and cons of this?

[graymachine]

So, what would the Tier system look like if we removed the measuring stick of magic? Would the system stay the same, but with no classes in T1-2?

I'm interested in banning magic (psionics included), but allowing PrCs that duplicate spells to be a way you can get magic. Incarnum is also still allowable. Can anyone give me the pros and cons of this?

Well, in what way are you banning magic? Are you just banning primary casters, or all classes that use magic? The Paladin, for example, could be banned. Assuming you mean banning primary casters, I would assume, without too much thought, that the classes that use magic would simply move to the top.

Also, are you counting the weeabo fightin'-magics in Tome of Battle as magic? Although they definitely should fall in the category of magic, they technically don't. So, if you aren't counting them then the upper tiers simply fill up with everything out of Tome of Battle with everything else coming in a distant second at best.

In any iteration, however, fighter will still suck hard.

[Person_Man]

What happens to the Binder, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, magic items, and Tier 3 or lower classes with magical class features?

[Namfuak]

The definitions within the tiers would stay the same (class can do one thing effectively and if that isn't appropriate can still contribute for tier 3, for example). Your party is going to have a hell of a time with enemies after level 10 or so that have resistances only countered by magic though, unless scrolls and magic weapons will still be around. Or you could just do the game as E6.

[Man on Fire]

So, what would the Tier system look like if we removed the measuring stick of magic? Would the system stay the same, but with no classes in T1-2?

I'm interested in banning magic (psionics included), but allowing PrCs that duplicate spells to be a way you can get magic. Incarnum is also still allowable. Can anyone give me the pros and cons of this?

If I can humbly suggest something - D&D is horrible if you're trying to play a game that is not set on very high magic levels. If you're looking for game with no magic or low-level magic, try other systems. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Riddle of Steel (which is free on the web), Savage Worlds - it will spare you and everybody a lot of stress and it will flow much smoother than D&D game ever would.

[wayfare]

I'm not really using the Monster manual too much for...well...monsters. Its mostly PCs being antagonized by other humanoids with class levels. There may be a few monsters here and there, but nothing with casting beyond SLAs.

I guess my initial question is more about what it means to be in the tiers. If you have magic, then thats what you have to measure by. But if all the magic gets axed (yes everything including ToB , only excluding Incarnum), then i feel like teh lower tiers get a lift. Suddenly, being good at climbing, riding, jumping, etc is actually meaningful. There's no spell that can do it better.

I mean, I know that T1 and T2 are out of reach in this scenario, but I dont mind that even a little, to be honest.

[Callin]

I honestly dont see why the tiers would change. The classes would still rank the same but now Tier 3 would be Tier 1 and then so on down the line. The descriptions of the tiers should even stay the same.

edit- No magic games can be done but the DM has to stick to it as well. You cant expect the PC's to run around with at best a masterwork weapon and hope to defeat certain things.

[HyperInferno]

If I can humbly suggest something - D&D is horrible if you're trying to play a game that is not set on very high magic levels. If you're looking for game with no magic or low-level magic, try other systems. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Riddle of Steel (which is free on the web), Savage Worlds - it will spare you and everybody a lot of stress and it will flow much smoother than D&D game ever would.

I would agree with this. D&D is high fantasy, and it sounds like you want a low fantasy game. You are better off using a different system as a base.

[Deepbluediver]

You should try and be more explicit, I think.

What exactly are you aiming for, and what is it that you want to try and change? You have classes like the Paladin and Ranger who aren't normally considered OP, but still have spell-progression and magic-like abilities.
Where is healing going to come from? Will magic items be common and what is their source?

The tier system rates players on a general scale of how versatile and powerful they are in comparison to each other, but they're are way to play every class that isn't as relatively OP (blaster-mage, healbot-cleric, etc).

Magic is a huge part of D&D, so if you cut it out it's going to have all kinds of repercussions.

[wayfare]

You should try and be more explicit, I think.

What exactly are you aiming for, and what is it that you want to try and change? You have classes like the Paladin and Ranger who aren't normally considered OP, but still have spell-progression and magic-like abilities.
Where is healing going to come from? Will magic items be common and what is their source?

The tier system rates players on a general scale of how versatile and powerful they are in comparison to each other, but they're are way to play every class that isn't as relatively OP (blaster-mage, healbot-cleric, etc).

Magic is a huge part of D&D, so if you cut it out it's going to have all kinds of repercussions.

Its basically just a game world with Incarnum as the only magic source. Pally and Ranger can be there, but need to use ACFs and trade away the casting.

Healing in combat probably just wont be a thing. Alchemy is doable, and I am working on rules for magic weapons and armor, mostly based on the material used to craft the thing.

You can still get spells as class features -- if you take a class that gets True Seeing as a class feature, you still get to use the ability.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a list of non magical D&D classes...

Aristocrat
Commoner
Warrior
Samurai (both versions)
Expert
Fighter
Knight
Mariner (Dragonlance Legend of the Twins)
Noble (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)
Paladin (with a huge amount of acf's, from all over the place!)
Swashbuckler
Barbarian (several ACF's would also work quite well)
Master (Dragonlance War of the Lance)
Ranger (with a huge amount of ACF's, from all over the place!)
Rogue (several ACFs would work)
Crusader (only some options chosen)
Warblade (only some options chosen)
Factotum (with homebrew ACFs, like this one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212864 with only Ex options chosen for that)

So it would be Tiers 6 - 3, with very few classes and options getting to Tier 3. Mostly 6-4.

[vasharanpaladin]

if all the magic gets axed (yes everything including ToB , only excluding Incarnum)


ERROR

Tome of Battle is explicitly NOT magic. Go flip a fork. :smallfurious:

[Gavinfoxx]

yea, only swordsage is REQUIRED to have a (su) ability...

[wayfare]

ERROR

Tome of Battle is explicitly NOT magic. Go flip a fork. :smallfurious:

Isn't it called blade magic in the book?

[vasharanpaladin]

Isn't it called blade magic in the book?

And we call sleight of hand "magic" IRL. It's irrelevant.

[graymachine]

ERROR

Tome of Battle is explicitly NOT magic. Go flip a fork. :smallfurious:

Right. The correct term is "weeaboo fightin' magics."

:smallbiggrin:

[RFLS]

Right. The correct term is "weeaboo fightin' magics."

:smallbiggrin:

....

Trolling aside, not all of the disciplines are explicitly or implicitly magic in any sense of the word. Iron Heart, for example, is just a set of techniques that make complete sense for an accomplished swordsman.

[Gavinfoxx]

Lemme quote myself...



Actually, if you want to explicitly simulate non supernatural martial arts in D&D, the Warblade is possibly the closest class you can use for that purpose before going to 3rd party sources to simulate the sorts of things that happen in real fighting. Now, that doesn't mean that it is always realistic, just that you can build the most realistic fighter with that class if you put your mind to it! For example, I've always wanted to play a Warblade who is a Federfechter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federfechter), who used to be a Zweihänder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweih%C3%A4nder) wielding Doppelsöldner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppels%C3%B6ldner) in the Landsknechts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknechts), who focuses on Iron Heart (with a bit of Stone Dragon), and I would just rename the stances and strikes and counters and stuff with terms from German longsword fencing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing). He'd wear a Breastplate and fight with a Greatsword. It totally fits!

Also, I'm pretty sure that even with lots of ACF's, its really really hard to remove all supernatural abilities from Paladin and Ranger, so Warblade is arguably better than them in that regard...

[137beth]

Hey, guys! Maybe he just wants to play a game without ToB! You know that it is possible to do, right?


Ultimately, I don't think it would hurt your game too much if you wanted to play a no-magic game. You might want to write your own ACFs for the partial classes like ranger, but it should work. Just don't expect the players to be remotely balanced against the monster manual, though, unless you give them magic items or something similar.

[Harrow]

Well, that takes a lot of options off the table. You now have to wait weeks between encounters to heal. Most distressing to me is that I can't think of anything that could beat a mounted archer. Seriously, what can take a mildly optimized mounted archer out without magic?

[graymachine]

Hey, guys! Maybe he just wants to play a game without ToB! You know that it is possible to do, right?

::gasp::

Blasphemy!

[vasharanpaladin]

Hey, guys! Maybe he just wants to play a game without ToB! You know that it is possible to do, right?


Possible? Maybe.

But no ToB means melee characters can't do anything nice. No magic means melee characters are the only possibility.

So with no magic and no ToB, this game would be boring as hell and not worth the effort to actually get interested in your own character who will undoubtedly be exactly the same as everyone else's in the end.

And the presence or absence of incarnum doesn't change much, it just adds a lot of micromanaging in between "I hit it with my sword/claws/insert appropriate weapon here."

[Fates]

Eh, frankly, I've never signed myself to the belief that ToB is the only way for melee combat to be interesting outside of spellcasting. Ultimately, it comes down to your players- if they're happy with full attacks, sneak attacks, trip attacks, and what have you, I say go for it. Maybe it would make for a grittier, more down-to-earth campaign.

And while it is certainly possible to choose manoevres that are not inherently magical, it requires a great deal of micromanaging on the DM's part, and ultimately, it likely won't have the same feel as a more "realistic" class, and will cause a massive gap between ToB characters and mundane characters.

Ultimately, it comes down to what kind of game you and your characters want to play. If you're going for the gritty, Tolkien/SoIF type of style of play I'm partial to, I suggest banning ToB. If you want a standard heroic game free of magic, follow the suggestions of those before me.

[Gavinfoxx]

Frankly, this sounds like a game that is begging to use Codex Martialis...

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/65250/Codex-Martialis-Set-%5BBUNDLE%5D

Which is sorta D20 Riddle of Steel anyway...

Wayfare: edited my previous post with the class list, you should read it.

[graymachine]

Frankly, this sounds like a game that is begging to use Codex Martialis...

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/65250/Codex-Martialis-Set-%5BBUNDLE%5D

Which is sorta D20 Riddle of Steel anyway...

Wayfare: edited my previous post with the class list, you should read it.

This seems more in line with what I would like for improving non-magic classes; I never cottoned to ToB very well because it seems like they simply went through a magic system and simply crossed out the word 'magic.'

[Gavinfoxx]

This seems more in line with what I would like for improving non-magic classes; I never cottoned to ToB very well because it seems like they simply went through a magic system and simply crossed out the word 'magic.'

And yet, before you get to Codex Martialis, it is still the best system in D&D 3.5e to simulate the sorts of things that happen in Real World Renaissance Martial Arts. Also, real world Renaissance martial arts = "Fighting systems after people invented what D&D calls the greatsword. Also, plate armor." Read this old thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245103

And realize that Galloglaich is the guy who WROTE Codex Martialis, and who knows a whoooolllee lot about sword-based martial arts. And when I pointed him to the online wotc cards that described Tome of Battle stances/maneuvers/counters, and specifically to the Iron Heart discipline, he agreed that, yea, that stuff actually is the sort of thing you see in real world martial arts...

And the whole regaining your maneuvers is something that happens in real fights. It's called resetting to a more neutral stance.

[vasharanpaladin]

{Scrubbed}

[wayfare]

ToB is an excellent subsystem. It does have blatantly supernatural effects, in all schools, when you get high enough level. Its an excellent option for players and I'm even using it to run a Martial-Arts themed campaign in the next few weeks, with modded Rangers (TC, DM, SH), Barbarians (SD, TC, SS) and Rogues (IH, DM, SH).

My goal in this thread is to get info on teh viability of running a game that uses Incarnum as the base magic system, supplemented by an Incantation system that is a bit more expansive than what already exists. The incantations are the real magic -- the incarnum stuff is more like a series of helpful cantrips that a rare few can muster.

So, for example, the game will be light on healing. What can I do (aside from allowing spells, scrolls, staffs and wands) to allow for better healing? Can you suggest a better system for the treating injury part of healing? Or maybe a class that gains better healing as (Su/Sp) abilities? Maybe a soulmeld that allows you to heal better?

Also, I do think the hierarchy changes in tiers when we are not using casters as the be-all-end-all. Some things become more important and useful -- i can see jumping and climbing and conventional stealth becoming very useful in a world where magic is not a thing...

[Alabenson]

I'm going to join those in suggesting that, if the OP wants to run a grittier, more "realistic" game, then it would be best to find a different system entirely rather than attempt to strip the magic out of D&D.

Trying to run a gritty, low-magic game in D&D is a great deal like trying to bake a loaf of bread in a microwave oven. It doesn't work because there's something wrong with the microwave, but because the device simply is not designed to do what you want it to do.

[wayfare]

I'm going to join those in suggesting that, if the OP wants to run a grittier, more "realistic" game, then it would be best to find a different system entirely rather than attempt to strip the magic out of D&D.

Trying to run a gritty, low-magic game in D&D is a great deal like trying to bake a loaf of bread in a microwave oven. It doesn't work because there's something wrong with the microwave, but because the device simply is not designed to do what you want it to do.

Why, with reference to my post about using Class Leveled characters as teh primary antagonists, is this true?

[Fates]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote.{scrubbed}

[sonofzeal]

ToB is an excellent subsystem. It does have blatantly supernatural effects, in all schools, when you get high enough level.
What's blatantly supernatural in Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, or Tiger Claw?

[wayfare]

What's blatantly supernatural in Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, or Tiger Claw?

DM gets timestop and celerity, basically. Iron Heart Surge has its <ahem> heart in the right place, but gets silly way before you turn off the sun. Iron Heart endurance is not powerful, but it does seem supernatural to me. The Tiger claw powers are basically ok.

[erikun]

Why, with reference to my post about using Class Leveled characters as teh primary antagonists, is this true?
Traps. Magic items. The AC vs to-hit scale. Binders.

Even if you avoid these, you still run into things that are now nearly impossible to beat. What do you do against the Camou+HiPS ranger? What about a mounted flying anything? You still run into ridiculous psudo-magical situations, the game just has them fluffed as "mundane" because they didn't tape a magic label on them.


Well, that takes a lot of options off the table. You now have to wait weeks between encounters to heal. Most distressing to me is that I can't think of anything that could beat a mounted archer. Seriously, what can take a mildly optimized mounted archer out without magic?
Anything with a tower shield.


DM gets timestop and celerity, basically. Iron Heart Surge has its <ahem> heart in the right place, but gets silly way before you turn off the sun. Iron Heart endurance is not powerful, but it does seem supernatural to me. The Tiger claw powers are basically ok.
If I recall correctly, the Diamond Mind maneuver just allows extra attacks, which isn't that uncommon among other classes.

Iron Heart Surge works just fine as long at the DM adjudicates away the stupid uses.

I find it amusing that you consider lighting swords on fire and tossing fireballs to be the perfectly okay example of mundane swordmanship. :smalltongue:

[wayfare]

Ummm...what?

Ok, Binders fall under magic, no?

Throw some dust in the air? Use alchemical devices. Not fight in the wild?

I guess if you want to fight a mounted flying thing you'd better have a ranged weapon. Or be mounted and flying yourself?

{scrubbed}

[Urpriest]

DM gets timestop and celerity, basically. Iron Heart Surge has its <ahem> heart in the right place, but gets silly way before you turn off the sun. Iron Heart endurance is not powerful, but it does seem supernatural to me. The Tiger claw powers are basically ok.

DM doesn't get Time Stop, they get an extra full attack. You can affect people during a full attack. Basically, messing with the initiative order isn't magical in the slightest, it's just taking apart the abstraction of combat in the same way that every other interesting melee thing does.

Iron Heart Endurance just heals hit points. That's not magical unless you're doing it with positive energy or something.

[wayfare]

DM doesn't get Time Stop, they get an extra full attack. You can affect people during a full attack. Basically, messing with the initiative order isn't magical in the slightest, it's just taking apart the abstraction of combat in the same way that every other interesting melee thing does.

Iron Heart Endurance just heals hit points. That's not magical unless you're doing it with positive energy or something.

You're right on that one, just picked up the book.

I guess it depends on where you come from on Iron Heart Endurance. If HP isn't actually damage, then i guess healing it is fine. But if it is actual wounds, then it seems supernatural. I tend to interpret Temp HP as a vigor thing, so HP is just your ability to get stabbed and not die.

[vasharanpaladin]

So, for example, the game will be light on healing. What can I do (aside from allowing spells, scrolls, staffs and wands) to allow for better healing? Can you suggest a better system for the treating injury part of healing? Or maybe a class that gains better healing as (Su/Sp) abilities? Maybe a soulmeld that allows you to heal better?


I'd like to go on record stating that psionics is better at healing than incarnum is. Paladins should probably keep their Lay On Hands ability, and you might have to let in dragon shamans for their similar healing feature.

Devoted Spirit maneuvers also throw out some decent healing. But that's about it, outside of actual magic or Unearthed Arcana. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm)

But then, as mentioned before, magic is so integrated into the system that it becomes difficult to remove it...

EDIT: In lategame, monks get the Wholeness of Body feature to heal themselves. A variant (DR346) gets Wholeness of Others instead, allowing them to heal allies.

EDIT2:


If you want to play a complex and powerful melee character, play a DMM Persist Cloistered Cleric, or a Druid.

And if you want to do so without using magic?

[Kristinn]

I would just like to chime in, and say that even though under DnD rules ToB isn't "magic", it comes across as very supernatural. Fighter feats are things like extra accuracy or power of sword blows, proficiency in tripping opponents, etc. ToB powers are things like the aforementioned healing of wounds. Accelerated healing is certifiably supernatural, unless you are Spider Man.

That being said, I have never allowed ToB in any of my games. I have never felt it fit neither the in game world of mundane sword wielders and supernatural magic wielders, nor the out of game concept of simple playing of mundane, and complex book-keeping of spells for casters.

If you want to play a complex and powerful melee character, play a DMM Persist Cloistered Cleric, or a Druid.

[wayfare]

I would just like to chime in, and say that even though under DnD rules ToB isn't "magic", it comes across as very supernatural. Fighter feats are things like extra accuracy or power of sword blows, proficiency in tripping opponents, etc. ToB powers are things like the aforementioned healing of wounds. Accelerated healing is certifiably supernatural, unless you are Spider Man.

That being said, I have never allowed ToB in any of my games. I have never felt it fit neither the in game world of mundane sword wielders and supernatural magic wielders, nor the out of game concept of simple playing of mundane, and complex book-keeping of spells for casters.

If you want to play a complex and powerful melee character, play a DMM Persist Cloistered Cleric, or a Druid.

Without magic, doesnt a ranger or even a Soulborn become a complex and powerful melee character. Even some Incarnate builds become very effective melee fighters.

[137beth]

Okay...

There are a lot of homebrew fixes of martial classes which are very interesting, tier 3, and use no non-core subsystems, including no ToB. If you ban all magic-like systems EXCEPT ToB, you are basically making the ToB classes into the new tier 1s. Either include them, but use homebrewed fixes for the non-ToB classes to even things out, or just don't include ToB.

Now, for the people complaining that you shouldn't try to create a lower-powered campaign using D&D because it strains the system too much...
Really? Banning a bunch of classes and items is a heck of a lot simpler than completely switching systems.

[Rubik]

Also, are you counting the weeabo fightin'-magics in Tome of Battle as magic? Although they definitely should fall in the category of magic, they technically don't. So, if you aren't counting them then the upper tiers simply fill up with everything out of Tome of Battle with everything else coming in a distant second at best.What universe do you live in where "hit it hard with a stick" counts as magic? That's what most (but not all) of ToB is.

[Flickerdart]

Without magic, doesnt a ranger or even a Soulborn become a complex and powerful melee character.
No, rangers and soulborn are now worse - they can't get the buffs they need to at least pretend like they're useful against CR-appropriate threats.

[Gavinfoxx]

How I would do a level 2 ranger to remove most of the supernatural stuff, and make him a competent fighter and skillmonkey.

ACF: Skilled City Dweller, Ride for Tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement)
ACF: Trap Expert (Dungeonscape)
ACF: Strong-Arm style (Dragon Magazine #326)
ACF: Solitary Hunter (Dragon Magazine #347)
ACF: Champion of the Wild (Complete Champion. A crap trade, but what are you going to do?)
ACF: Voice of the City (Cityscape Web Enhancement)

Be sure that, if you want an animal companion, get Wild Cohort. Be sure to pick up favored enemy of the races you will mostly be fighting (human?). Use a big two handed weapon like a Greatsword or your favorite polearm. Congratulations, you are a more survivable rogue that can still trapfind, you have a ton of utility skills, AND you are a great melee combatant at killing humans (or elves or whatever), though you aren't the full on awesome as a Barbarian when raging.

This is the Soldier class. A linguist, a combatant with powerful weapons, strong against humans, good against traps, good in the wilderness and survival, skillful, great against the foes he is likely to fight in war, a huge skill list appropriate to soldiers, etc. etc. etc.

[137beth]

No, rangers and soulborn are now worse - they can't get the buffs they need to at least pretend like they're useful against CR-appropriate threats.

....you do realize that "CR-appropriate" in a no-magic campaign does not in any way mean using monsters from the monster manual with the same RAW CR as the party's level, right?

[Flickerdart]

....you do realize that "CR-appropriate" in a no-magic campaign does not in any way mean using monsters from the monster manual with the same RAW CR as the party's level, right?
You do realize that against a level 0 commoner, every character is complex and powerful, right?

[wayfare]

You do realize that against a level 0 commoner, every character is complex and powerful, right?

So, you're saying that you have to have magic for complexity?

Theoretically, isn't 1 Level 6 Human Ranger an appropriate combat for 4 Level 6 Characters?

[Gavinfoxx]

The ranger I statted up would be! My ranger would kick ass in a mundane campaign! Been editing my post, look at that! Damn near gets to tier 3 in such a campaign.

[Flickerdart]

So, you're saying that you have to have magic for complexity?
No, I'm saying that any character can be complex and powerful by comparison if you lower the bar far enough. It doesn't change, even a little bit, the fact that aforementioned characters still only have "I full attack" as their one remotely meaningful contribution to the party.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey, my guy has, "I full attack", "I take 10 on Survival to feed the party as we travel" and "I search for traps".

[wayfare]

No, I'm saying that any character can be complex and powerful by comparison if you lower the bar far enough. It doesn't change, even a little bit, the fact that aforementioned characters still only have "I full attack" as their one remotely meaningful contribution to the party.

So diplomacy, intimidate, hide, move silently, appraise, jump, ride, tumble, are not meaningful?

Aren't they more meaningful now that you actually have to have ranks to be able to do the thing? No invisibility, no +20 bonuses, no charm/dominate, no summons that faultlessly carry you where you need to go. Aren't the skills much more meaningful to the party?

@Gavin: See, thats a pretty good guy to have around.

Edit: let me make a bolder statement. Magic is cheating. Cheating isn't complex, Cheating is simple.

Magic only becomes complex when you have other casters. Then, yes, you get all tactical about it. But the other classes are plenty deep without magic. The have depths that are usually unplumbed, because magic makes most of their efforts meaningless.

[137beth]

No, I'm saying that any character can be complex and powerful by comparison if you lower the bar far enough. It doesn't change, even a little bit, the fact that aforementioned characters still only have "I full attack" as their one remotely meaningful contribution to the party.

Okay, so take a look at jiriku's fixes for the tier 4-5 classes. No new subsystems, no magic, no ToB, but lots of interesting combat and utility options which contribute in enough situations to make it tier 3.

[Flickerdart]

Okay, so take a look at jiriku's fixes for the tier 4-5 classes. No new subsystems, no magic, no ToB, but lots of interesting combat and utility options which contribute in enough situations to make it tier 3.
The power level of some homebrew classes has no bearing on the poor performance of the classes in question. Yes, you can replace lousy classes with better ones. But if you need to do that even after you turn off the magic and dialing down the difficulty, then it's just more proof that the classes well and truly do suck.

[137beth]

The power level of some homebrew classes has no bearing on the poor performance of the classes in question. Yes, you can replace lousy classes with better ones. But if you need to do that even after you turn off the magic and dialing down the difficulty, then it's just more proof that the classes well and truly do suck.

Oh, I was just trying to illustrate that new subsystems aren't the only solution if you want T3...
In fact, I completely lost track of what you are trying to say a page ago, this discussion keeps jumping around too much.


If T4 is what floats your boat, you really don't need homebrew OR magic for classes. At mid-high levels, you WILL need to either homebrew monsters or completely scrap the CR system (or both) since monsters usually assume that you have magic items. Now, without magic, the differences between the decent martial classes like rogue or ranger, and the truly horrible ones (samurai) become more significant without magic items to fill the gaps. So yes, samurai/monk truly such, but we already knew this. But the ranger, rogue, and fighter are quite good in a no-magic, no-ToB campaign.

[Gavinfoxx]

Monk wouldn't be in a no magic campaign. Too many Su abilities.

[Flickerdart]

In fact, I completely lost track of what you are trying to say a page ago, this discussion keeps jumping around too much.
I only started posting halfway down this page, and it was to refute an assertion the OP made about the original premise. You don't need divination magic to follow that train of thought.

[kulosle]

wait why are we saying SU abilities aren't allowed


You can still get spells as class features -- if you take a class that gets True Seeing as a class feature, you still get to use the ability.

So if this statement is still true, than i think i would want to go bard, even if you didn't give me anything for loosing my spellcasting. I'm pretty sure it would be the best class.

As for healing, i'm pretty sure there was a thread about how combat healers are bad. If the low level magic items like wand of vigor are still existing like the OP seems to suggest. then you should be fine. If not then fast healing would be the most important ability to get ever! Dragon shamans would be awesome! with their fast healing aura.

So in this universe everyone would max listen and spot in fear of the hide in plain sight ability. And wisdom would be important just for those skills. Also, one of the most important things to do would be to stack as many fear resistances as possible, because intimidation optimization would be huge. Also exotic weapons would probably cost a little more. And classes that get things like nets and what not would be great. Oh god zehtriman spy (how ever it's spelled) would be freakishly good. no one would be able to see through that disguise.

So exotic weapon proficiency, hide in plain sight, intimidation, fear resistance, fast healing, spot, listen.

these would more up the tier list at a disproportional rate.

[graymachine]

DM gets timestop and celerity, basically. Iron Heart Surge has its <ahem> heart in the right place, but gets silly way before you turn off the sun. Iron Heart endurance is not powerful, but it does seem supernatural to me. The Tiger claw powers are basically ok.

Look, you have to keep in mind with ToB fans that even though the character is flying through the air on his tiger-eagle, shooting valor-rays from his eyes while enemy weapons bounce of his courage-shield, it isn't magic because it doesn't have '(su)' next to it.

With Iron Heart, for example, the warrior simply squeezes his body so hard that it squeezes all of the wounds shut.

[graymachine]

As a thought on the issue of healing, you could re-skin hit points to be representative of exhaustion rather than actual wounds. As I recall someone on Gamer's Guide saying, the only hit point that matters is your last. Simply increase the 'healing' a person gets from resting/sleeping. For hip point lose in the 0 to -9 range, you could skin that as the person actually taking a dangerous wound and leave the healing times for resting normal (or perhaps even longer) to represent the gravity of the wound. In essence, as a character loses hit points, they are getting tired and losing concentration until, when they cross the 0 hp border, they make a mistake and get run through.

[angry_bear]

I think the most effective way of going about this is to improve the usefulness of the Healing skill. In AD&D it restores a D3 of hit points, which would be much better in a game without magic like what you want to do. It's still not a great amount of recovery, but it's better than the alternative...

I'd say that ranged combatants, or stealth based characters would become the most effective in this setting. Expect a lot of late night coupe de graces on your NPC's...

[Flickerdart]

There's nothing magic about healing from injury. You're constantly doing it just by living. Being able to heal faster is no different conceptually than being able to run faster or dodge faster or swing your sword faster. Just because people in the real world can't do it doesn't make it magical. People in the real world can't have an explosion go off in the same room and be completely unscathed, but a 2nd level rogue can do so easily. The rogue is not magic because of this. The rogue is superhuman, but lots of things are. Elephants have superhuman strength, and they're not magic. Tortoises have superhuman lifespans, and they're not magic. Cheetahs have superhuman speed, and they're not magic.

[wayfare]

There's nothing magic about healing from injury. You're constantly doing it just by living. Being able to heal faster is no different conceptually than being able to run faster or dodge faster or swing your sword faster. Just because people in the real world can't do it doesn't make it magical. People in the real world can't have an explosion go off in the same room and be completely unscathed, but a 2nd level rogue can do so easily. The rogue is not magic because of this. The rogue is superhuman, but lots of things are. Elephants have superhuman strength, and they're not magic. Tortoises have superhuman lifespans, and they're not magic. Cheetahs have superhuman speed, and they're not magic.

...because...they...are not...human?

[137beth]

I only started posting halfway down this page, and it was to refute an assertion the OP made about the original premise. You don't need divination magic to follow that train of thought.

So...
Initially, you said that rangers were worse in this setting (yes, EVERYTHING is technically less powerful without magic items.) against "CR appropriate threats", which is silly to talk about, since CR is explicitly designed around players with magic items.

Then you retorted by bringing complexity into things...
the ranger (+ACFs to replace spells) or rogue is no more or less complex without magic. Less powerful, yes, but no less complex. So yes, we have lowered the bar for power, making some things seem more powerful by comparison. We have not, however, lowered the bar for complexity--martial characters are just as interesting as they were before, so your statement
No, I'm saying that any character can be complex and powerful by comparison if you lower the bar far enough. It doesn't change, even a little bit, the fact that aforementioned characters still only have "I full attack" as their one remotely meaningful contribution to the party. is absurdly wrong.
So
The power level of some homebrew classes has no bearing on the poor performance of the classes in question. Yes, you can replace lousy classes with better ones. But if you need to do that even after you turn off the magic and dialing down the difficulty, then it's just more proof that the classes well and truly do suck.
No, you either replace existing martial classes with more powerful ones or lower the difficulty. You don't need to do both. Existing martial classes only suck by comparison to magic and ToB classes.



There's nothing magic about healing from injury. You're constantly doing it just by living. Being able to heal faster is no different conceptually than being able to run faster or dodge faster or swing your sword faster. Just because people in the real world can't do it doesn't make it magical. People in the real world can't have an explosion go off in the same room and be completely unscathed, but a 2nd level rogue can do so easily. The rogue is not magic because of this. The rogue is superhuman, but lots of things are. Elephants have superhuman strength, and they're not magic. Tortoises have superhuman lifespans, and they're not magic. Cheetahs have superhuman speed, and they're not magic.
Oops, you have once again jumped into a completely different discussion, and now I have now idea what you are trying to argue. Yes, everything you just said was true. What does this have to do with the discussion?


Look, you have to keep in mind with ToB fans that even though the character is flying through the air on his tiger-eagle, shooting valor-rays from his eyes while enemy weapons bounce of his courage-shield, it isn't magic because it doesn't have '(su)' next to it.

With Iron Heart, for example, the warrior simply squeezes his body so hard that it squeezes all of the wounds shut.
Yes, it is nominally not magic. But people (such as me) who don't like ToB don't like it that something can behave exactly like spells/magic, but still be called martial because..."uh, it just isn't magic!" I'd be happier if we either
(a) built a system where some characters have magic, and others don't, but the ones that don't actually don't
(b) built a system where no one has magic (or took the system from (a) and banned all magic users, as the OP is trying to do)
or (c), built a system from the ground up where everyone has magic, but some people call it something different. This was done in 4th edition. ToB, on the other hand, does the whole "magic in everything but name" for some classes but not others. I don't like this feel, it seems even more forced that option (c). So if you think ToB is okay as "not magic" just because you call it something else, sorry, I'm not interested.


I think the most effective way of going about this is to improve the usefulness of the Healing skill. In AD&D it restores a D3 of hit points, which would be much better in a game without magic like what you want to do. It's still not a great amount of recovery, but it's better than the alternative...
I'd suggest a bit more than D3...that was nice in AD&D when hp totals were a lot lower. Probably, the amount healed should increase for each X by which you exceed the DC. Of course, ultimately, this amount depends on how often you want your players to die. If the answer is "a lot", then don't change the heal skill at all.

[Rubik]

...because...they...are not...human?And D&D is fantasy, which allows the mundane to become extraordinary if you practice it enough.

Look at the epic uses of skills if you don't believe me. A rogue who is good enough at Escape Artist can squeeze through spaces smaller than he is. He can Balance on a cloud. He can Diplomacy someone into his fanatical follower in six seconds.

And none of them are magical in the least.

It's a fantasy game. Deal with it.

http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/jFX-i_lYDBQ/mqdefault.jpg

[vasharanpaladin]

And D&D is fantasy, which allows the mundane to become extraordinary if you practice it enough.

Look at the epic uses of skills if you don't believe me. A rogue who is good enough at Escape Artist can squeeze through spaces smaller than he is. He can Balance on a cloud. He can Diplomacy someone into his fanatical follower in six seconds.

And none of them are magical in the least.

It's a fantasy game. Deal with it.

http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/jFX-i_lYDBQ/mqdefault.jpg

At the risk of reopening that kettle of eels, this particular statement may have come too soon. :smallfrown:

But, yes, this is the reason for my kneejerk reaction to ToB being treated in the same boat as magic. "Supernatural" is not necessarily magic. "Superhuman" is not magic. It is, in fact, possible to raise or lower your own body temperature, or control your pulse, or will your own health. It's called "biofeedback;" most modern psychology textbooks have entire chapters on it, and actual monks use the techniques. Hell, most martial arts use those techniques, even if it's more prevalent in Eastern forms.

[wayfare]

And D&D is fantasy, which allows the mundane to become extraordinary if you practice it enough.

Look at the epic uses of skills if you don't believe me. A rogue who is good enough at Escape Artist can squeeze through spaces smaller than he is. He can Balance on a cloud. He can Diplomacy someone into his fanatical follower in six seconds.

And none of them are magical in the least.

It's a fantasy game. Deal with it.

http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/jFX-i_lYDBQ/mqdefault.jpg

Its any game you want it to be. Why is that so hotly contested?

[Deepbluediver]

Its any game you want it to be. Why is that so hotly contested?

Because trying to make it into something it's not frequently empasizes the disfunctional aspects of the game without really solving any of the problems.

My questions is, why do you consider ToB magic but not incarnum? IMO, Incarnum seems to be much more like magic than ToB, with it's soul binds and special abilities. (at the very least it's no LESS magic)

[wayfare]

Because trying to make it into something it's not frequently empasizes the disfunctional aspects of the game without really solving any of the problems.

My questions is, why do you consider ToB magic but not incarnum? IMO, Incarnum seems to be much more like magic than ToB, with it's soul binds and special abilities. (at the very least it's no LESS magic)

Let me answer with a previous post:


Its basically just a game world with Incarnum as the only magic source. Pally and Ranger can be there, but need to use ACFs and trade away the casting.

Healing in combat probably just wont be a thing. Alchemy is doable, and I am working on rules for magic weapons and armor, mostly based on the material used to craft the thing.

You can still get spells as class features -- if you take a class that gets True Seeing as a class feature, you still get to use the ability.

So, you know those crummy PrCs that are thematically very cool but get spells as Su/Sp abilities instead of actual casting. those classes are pretty cool now.

All it is is a world where Incarnum is the dominant supernatural force. Where Arcane and divine power dont exist, where the martial disciplines never happened, where psionics never happened.

Its just an incarnum game. Why does it need a justification? Maybe we just like blue?

[Deepbluediver]

Let me answer with a previous post:
*snip*
Its just an incarnum game. Why does it need a justification? Maybe we just like blue?

My bad; I missed that. Sorry.

Your thread and first post is a little misleading though; you're not so much asking for feedback on an idea as you are wanting an evaluation of a game-system you've already got in place.


So, you know those crummy PrCs that are thematically very cool but get spells as Su/Sp abilities instead of actual casting. those classes are pretty cool now.

All it is is a world where Incarnum is the dominant supernatural force. Where Arcane and divine power dont exist, where the martial disciplines never happened, where psionics never happened.

PrCs that are rated as crummy tend to be so becuase they have very difficult/specific entry requirements (often feats and/or skills that are basically a waste) or because they add very little to the base-class' concept. Either that or they are so specific that all you get out of it for most encounters is the BAB and HD.

What are some of the PrCs that where formerly a no-go that you expect you players to now be interested in?

I'm just curious, because I know there are a lot of PrCs out there, only a fraction of which every really get mentioned on the forum (usually the very best and the very worst).

[wayfare]

My bad; I missed that. Sorry.

Your thread and first post is a little misleading though; you're not so much asking for feedback on an idea as you are wanting an evaluation of a game-system you've already got in place.



PrCs that are rated as crummy tend to be so becuase they have very difficult/specific entry requirements (often feats and/or skills that are basically a waste) or because they add very little to the base-class' concept. Either that or they are so specific that all you get out of it for most encounters is the BAB and HD.

What are some of the PrCs that where formerly a no-go that you expect you players to now be interested in?

I'm just curious, because I know there are a lot of PrCs out there, only a fraction of which every really get mentioned on the forum (usually the very best and the very worst).

Shadowdancer is one that springs to mind. The tattooed monk is another.

I can get how the title is misleading, I just really wanted to know how classes would get retiered if we eliminate most of the magic/supernatural stuff. Do classes with Diplomacy/Intimidate get a bump because charm/domination is no longer the best way to get folks to do your bidding? Do classes with Craft:Alchemy get a bump because they can generate (minor) supernatural effects?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I can get how the title is misleading, I just really wanted to know how classes would get retiered if we eliminate most of the magic/supernatural stuff. Do classes with Diplomacy/Intimidate get a bump because charm/domination is no longer the best way to get folks to do your bidding? Do classes with Craft:Alchemy get a bump because they can generate (minor) supernatural effects?
They wouldn't change Tier, because the Tier system isn't about which class is "better" than another. It's a measure of an individual class' potential power and flexibility. Removing some classes isn't going to magically make others better in absolute terms. Relative power will be different, yes-- the Incarnate will look like the new wizard, since it can do so many different things and change itself so much from day to day-- but it will still be Tier 3, because it still lacks a mage's ability to win everything as a standard action.

[Bakeru]

Do classes with Diplomacy/Intimidate get a bump because charm/domination is no longer the best way to get folks to do your bidding?Diplomacy can already be seen as superior to Charm X, and can be a lot more applicable then domination, especially at higher levels.
Enemies always get a will save against enchantments, but Diplomacy is a flat skill check that works against anything you can talk to (even undead) and isn't blocked by Mind Blank. There's a reason high Diplomancy builds are called "Diplomancer".
Basically: Diplomacy is broken, if you want to take it into account, fix it first.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, in my list (including ACF's!) I was removing classes that had ANY supernatural abilities whatsoever. The list of base classes that have supernatural abilities, but not spells, is MUCH MUCH bigger.

[Socratov]

If I might add in a few cp, I know of a way of double healing if you allow bards (I think I have seen a way for them to trade away casting, but I'm not sure). The 'trick' is to take Healing hymn (from complete divine or complete champion or something) which trades bardic music for amplified healing while resting.

The question is, do you consider bardic music magic? Both yes and no would have their appropriate arguments.

As for your original question, No the tiersystem wouldn't change since the tiers are built around carrying out a certain set of quests. Casters have more ease to adapt to the situation while other classes tend to go with their main schtick. So, no the tiers won't change, but some tiers will jsut become inaccessible. It will also require for the party to have all the bases covered, maybe limiting the amount of freedom your players will have in creating their characters since all hands are needed on deck becuase you can't trust in the caster having an answer to certain problems you just haven't geared and specced for.

On the subject of Tome Of Battle, yes it looks like magic, but so does an appropriate sleight of hand or another perfectly rolled skillcheck. The question is: is it magic? No. Some of the high level maneuvers are supernatural (which we would call borderline magic), though lots of it is 'just' extrordinary effects with a fancy name (calling your attacks anyone?) and all certainly way below the incarnum magic level.

So thsoe were my cp, have fun designing and validating your homebrewed world :smallsmile:

[Big Fau]

Its any game you want it to be. Why is that so hotly contested?

D&D, as a whole, is built around a preconceived notion of balance (not that it was very accurate). A lot of the books in D&D are based around that assumption and the ones that aren't are special exceptions (Bo9S), and even those exceptions still try to incorporate it. Removing one of those factors can have a drastic impact on the game's balance, making the game infinitely harder to run. Removing WBL, LA/RHD, or Magic is an example of this, as other games are more suited to running games like that.

Removing magic from D&D means combat is insanely harder on the mundanes unless they are built using the Bo9S or MoI, and even those classes are going to have a hard time (especially against flying enemies, incorporeal ones, or other caster-focused encounters). Contrast with removing noncasters, and forcing the players to play some kind of full casting class, the balance is shifted to require nigh impossible odds just to challenge the party (especially if the party is optimizing their characters).

People don't realize this, and try to make D&D do something it wasn't meant to do. Magic-free games are extremely difficult to balance, and the system is not designed to do it.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please keep it civil in here.

[Fates]

My apologies, Vashar. Even though I was offended by your response, it was still stupid and jerky of me to respond with blatant patronization. Let bygones be bygones, eh?

EDIT (Because the last thing this thread need is another pointless post): Apology accepted, sir. Now, is anyone interested in returning to the matter at hand?

[vasharanpaladin]

My apologies, Vashar. Even though I was offended by your response, it was still stupid and jerky of me to respond with blatant patronization. Let bygones be bygones, eh?

Personally, I'd rather have kept the apologies to PMs so as not to clutter up Wayfare's thread any further than we already have. So I'll accept yours if you'll accept mine?

EDIT: Right, on that note, I'll also apologize to Wayfare. I have a deep resentment for people who insist that "superhuman" is the same as "magic" and thus tend to bite my foot off in my zeal to defend my position. So... yeah, I'm gonna say it's probably my fault entirely that the mods got called in...

[angry_bear]

It doesn't necessarily become harder for martial classes without casters as backup... It does mean that they might have to get more creative than "I hit it with my hammer" though. Perfecting field control without allies casting spells like entangle or grease; dealing with damage knowing you won't be getting a Heal spell immediately after the fight is over...

I already said earlier but, the most effective characters in this concept seem like Rangers focused on archery, and rogues using their stealth abilities to their maximum effect. Barbarians could work well too, but there's a chance that the barbarian is going to spend a month or two in traction after a few battles. Creative fighter builds could work alright too.

[Gavinfoxx]

Do flying beasts that can carry a man exist in this setting?

[Bogardan_Mage]

You're right on that one, just picked up the book.

I guess it depends on where you come from on Iron Heart Endurance. If HP isn't actually damage, then i guess healing it is fine. But if it is actual wounds, then it seems supernatural. I tend to interpret Temp HP as a vigor thing, so HP is just your ability to get stabbed and not die.
If HP is actual wounds then you grow additional tissue every time you level up. You might want to consider the wounds/vitality variant if you don't like the way the game conflates the various meanings of HP.

[vasharanpaladin]

If HP is actual wounds then you grow additional tissue every time you level up.

This means every PC is, to some degree, Alex Mercer. DO EET. :smallcool:

[shadow_archmagi]

Note: I'm fine with ToB being banned, yeah, sure, personal preference. I am, however, deeply compelled to participate in the semantics debate over whether it's magic (what's the distinction between magic and supernatural?)

Re: Iron Heart Endurance is Magic Because You Heal and Healing Is Magic

Either

A. HP is an abstraction. Being "hit" twelve times by the ranger doesn't mean there are twelve arrows in your eyesocket. Iron Heart isn't magic because it just represents a warrior suddenly strengthening his resolve and finding the will to fight a little longer.
or
B. HP is very real. Every hit is an actual injury. Anything with more than HD3 or so is banned, because being able to take a dozen arrows to the face isn't even vaguely natural.


RE: Even the 'nonmagical' disciplines get blatantly supernatural at higher levels. I went through and looked at them all and...

Iron: Lightning Throw: Use melee attack as line attack. Oh. Well then. Yeah. This one's pretty blatantly supernatural. You throw your sword and it plows through everyone in front of you then returns to your hand. Yeah, this one isn't even vaguely realistic.

Well I'll be damned. I have to concede the point that Iron Heart does contain at least one maneuver that is clearly impossible. Still, it's not like a 15th level Fighter isn't capable of swimming across the ocean in full plate and then breaking castle walls with his face. D&D is not a very realistic world at high levels.

[sonofzeal]

Iron: Lightning Throw: Use melee attack as line attack. Oh. Well then. Yeah. This one's pretty blatantly supernatural. You throw your sword and it plows through everyone in front of you then returns to your hand. Yeah, this one isn't even vaguely realistic.

Well I'll be damned. I have to concede the point that Iron Heart does contain at least one maneuver that is clearly impossible. Still, it's not like a 15th level Fighter isn't capable of swimming across the ocean in full plate and then breaking castle walls with his face. D&D is not a very realistic world at high levels.
*cough* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMCuQ353Lv8)

*cough* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVU4HURKEXs)

*cough* (http://youtu.be/YZ_j3s5xj8I?t=45s)

[DeltaEmil]

*cough* (http://youtu.be/YZ_j3s5xj8I?t=45s)That one might be iffy, since Luke's pa is a force user.

[sonofzeal]

That one might be iffy, since Luke's pa is a force user.
Yeah..... but it's so iconic, I couldn't resist. Point is, examples aren't hard to find. None of the three is remotely obscure. If I really went digging, there's probably dozens if not hundreds of examples along the same lines. It's pretty iconic.

[wayfare]

D&D, as a whole, is built around a preconceived notion of balance (not that it was very accurate). A lot of the books in D&D are based around that assumption and the ones that aren't are special exceptions (Bo9S), and even those exceptions still try to incorporate it. Removing one of those factors can have a drastic impact on the game's balance, making the game infinitely harder to run. Removing WBL, LA/RHD, or Magic is an example of this, as other games are more suited to running games like that.

Removing magic from D&D means combat is insanely harder on the mundanes unless they are built using the Bo9S or MoI, and even those classes are going to have a hard time (especially against flying enemies, incorporeal ones, or other caster-focused encounters). Contrast with removing noncasters, and forcing the players to play some kind of full casting class, the balance is shifted to require nigh impossible odds just to challenge the party (especially if the party is optimizing their characters).

People don't realize this, and try to make D&D do something it wasn't meant to do. Magic-free games are extremely difficult to balance, and the system is not designed to do it.

I'll agree that plopping a Balor on to a 17th level, magicless party is probably a pretty bad idea. But my goal is to have most combat be class leveled opponents. So, if you are fighting an enemy, its not like you are fighting something out of the book. You're fighting an assassin rogue or a serial-killer incarnate who sucks the souls out of his enemies and sticks them in his "blue gauntlets of evilness".

I won't entirely get rid of those fantastic elements (a lot of magical beasts can still be in the game), but they would be rare. For example -- if a guy is summoning a demon, he will have to do a ritual that begins at duslk of one day and emds at dusk the next, thrice offering a tribute of flesh to the demon. The PCs can stop the ritual to beat the encounter, but if they don't then they have to fight the demon. It'll probably be too much, so the party retreats and has to research a counter-ritual and trap the thing in three circles of blood while their caster calls upon 9 virtuous souls to banish the hellspawn.

The magic is still there, but its time-consuming, prep heavy.

[Big Fau]

I'll agree that plopping a Balor on to a 17th level, magicless party is probably a pretty bad idea. But my goal is to have most combat be class leveled opponents. So, if you are fighting an enemy, its not like you are fighting something out of the book. You're fighting an assassin rogue or a serial-killer incarnate who sucks the souls out of his enemies and sticks them in his "blue gauntlets of evilness".

I won't entirely get rid of those fantastic elements (a lot of magical beasts can still be in the game), but they would be rare. For example -- if a guy is summoning a demon, he will have to do a ritual that begins at duslk of one day and emds at dusk the next, thrice offering a tribute of flesh to the demon. The PCs can stop the ritual to beat the encounter, but if they don't then they have to fight the demon. It'll probably be too much, so the party retreats and has to research a counter-ritual and trap the thing in three circles of blood while their caster calls upon 9 virtuous souls to banish the hellspawn.

The magic is still there, but its time-consuming, prep heavy.

At which point, why aren't you playing White Wolf or WFRP? Both of those systems are designed more around this style of gameplay (if very brutal at points), and would be more efficient than D&D for your idea.

[137beth]

At which point, why aren't you playing White Wolf or WFRP? Both of those systems are designed more around this style of gameplay (if very brutal at points), and would be more efficient than D&D for your idea.

At which point, why are you trying to tell someone else that they are playing their own game wrong?

[Big Fau]

At which point, why are you trying to tell someone else that they are playing their own game wrong?

I'm telling him there are better tools for the job. Like the difference between using a flathead and a Phillips on certain screws: Yeah, you could potentially use either, but the Phillips one is more efficient for a specific type of screw.

Please don't strawman my posts.

[Arc_knight25]

I'm a throw my 2 cents is.

Tiers would stay the same. No doubt that some classes will have renewed vigor in this setting, but still doesn't change the tier system. No magic campaigns do have there place, if you and your players want to see how far you can take it power to you.

I know your probably not looking for alternatie options but maybe allowing casters, but have reprocutions for casting.

Arcane casters would need to make a Fort save or become fatigued. DC on the fort save could be 15+spell level. Spell goes off but fatigued from having to harness the energy. Can continue to cast to go to exausted, if they keep going either start taking x3 spell level dmg or become unconsious.

For your divine casters make it a will save. If they succeed there God grants them their calling. If they fail spell is wasted. If they fail 3+times in a day they may being to have doubt in their diety.

Just some idea's is all.

[wayfare]

I'm telling him there are better tools for the job. Like the difference between using a flathead and a Phillips on certain screws: Yeah, you could potentially use either, but the Phillips one is more efficient for a specific type of screw.

Please don't strawman my posts.

He's not strawmanning you.

D20 modern assumes heroism without magic. You can add it in, but it is not a must. FX classes are called that for a reason. The game is intended to allow you to play heroic mortals that eventually get superheroic. Nobody has supernatural abilities to start (i mean, you might via a feat, if your gm lets you take them).

Iron Heroes manages without magic, if i remember correctly (been ages since i've held it). Its d20.

I think there was a d20 Game of Thrones book that did the same.

All of these are fantasy, even heroic fantasy, and they all get by w/o magic. You can play a hero who fights through wounds that would kill lesser men and survives to hold back an army. I'm cool with that. i just want to use incarnum as the magic system. I don't think that desire invalidates d20 as the system to use.

The Conan the Barbarian series has magic more or less as I have described it, but I'd say Conan is closer to a DnD character than a White Wolf character (too strong to be mortal, too weak to be exalt, maybe a fresh out of Caracter Creation scion?).

[wayfare]

I'm a throw my 2 cents is.

Tiers would stay the same. No doubt that some classes will have renewed vigor in this setting, but still doesn't change the tier system. No magic campaigns do have there place, if you and your players want to see how far you can take it power to you.

I know your probably not looking for alternatie options but maybe allowing casters, but have reprocutions for casting.

Arcane casters would need to make a Fort save or become fatigued. DC on the fort save could be 15+spell level. Spell goes off but fatigued from having to harness the energy. Can continue to cast to go to exausted, if they keep going either start taking x3 spell level dmg or become unconsious.

For your divine casters make it a will save. If they succeed there God grants them their calling. If they fail spell is wasted. If they fail 3+times in a day they may being to have doubt in their diety.

Just some idea's is all.

Those are not bad ideas, I just like the incarnum fluff and effects. I like the resource management portion of it, as well as the flexibility.

I should also note - i am not opposed to magic in general. This setting just has incarnum as a very important portion of the game. There is no divine magic because the gods have been slain, no arcane magic necause the weapon that was used to defeat the gods has put an "arcane static" around the world that makes arcane magic impossible to control and very hard to even reach without ritual. Now ancestors are the only supernatural force to empower the heroes of teh world. Rituals still work, because they screen out the arcane static that makes magic so hard to find. Also, rituals are like the access codes to the universe -- you know the right process, you directly alter reality.

[Squark]

You can make the d20 system work without magic, yes. Hell, wizards even did it themselves (Star Wars Saga Edition did a very good job balancing out mundanes vs. force users after a few levels- Banning force using party members doesn't hurt game balance in the slightest). But 3.5 D&D, using sources published by WotC... doesn't do low magic well. At all.The thing about the other d20 systems that do low magic well is that a lot of time was put into rebuilding the system to account for the lack/reduced of magic.

So, you certainly could rebuild 3.5 D&D to run entirely on incarnum. But unless you invest a lot of time and effort (Likely several months worth of testing and rebalancing), you're playing with fire, and the campaign has a very real chance of crashing and burning.

[Near]

I think you are playing the wrong game. magic Is so intergrated into the system, attempting to completely remove it would break so many things on so many levels. I suggest you look at the alternate game systems people have reccomended to you and use one of those, as what you are attempting to do is effectively creating an entirely new game in which you would have to spend hours upon hours working with in order to try andmaintain some semblance of balance.